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Responses of ROCOR Faithful to the recent Sobor's Epistle

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  • Rd. Constantine Wright
    Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever! ... There is also this, at http://www.russia-talk.com/protest.htm ... The Entry of the Holy Virgin into the Temple, year
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 7, 2000
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      Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

      Fr. Andrew Kencis of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia wrote:

      > >Well it took me the entire afternoon and night. But it is up and
      > >functioning! All the known (to me) responses to the bishop's >epistle!
      > >
      > >http://www.monasterypress.com/statements.html

      There is also this, at http://www.russia-talk.com/protest.htm

      -------- Begin Text --------------
      The Entry of the Holy Virgin into the Temple, year 2000.

      In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit!

      The Epistle of the Bishop's Council of the Russian
      Orthodox Church Outside of Russia ("ROCOR") of
      October 14/27, 2000. http://www.rocor.org/,
      contradicts its 80-year-old tradition and is causing
      concern among the ROCOR faithful throughout the
      world. Since the Epistle is supposed to speak for all
      ROCOR members, the Council of Bishops, to stop the
      developing schism, would do well to take these steps:

      1.With all deliberate speed propagate as broadly as
      possible a message stating that the Council intends
      to issue an explanation of the Epistle -- prepared
      in the spirit of the three previous Vsezarubesznyi
      Sobors (1921, 1938, 1974) and 80-year-old
      ROCOR traditions.

      2.Simultaneously announce that the Council of
      Bishops intends to call the IVth Vsezarubezhnyi
      Sobor (including parishes within the republics of
      the former Soviet Union) for charting the future
      course of the ROCOR.

      It can be stated, generally, that it is wrong to base our
      relations with the Moscow Patriarchy ("MP") on the
      contradictory and Pharisaical pronouncements of the
      "Jubilee" Council of Bishops of the MP held on August
      13-16, 2000. Moreover, this violates all precepts of
      former ROCOR presiding metropolitans -- Anthony,
      Anastasii, Philaret, as well as numerous leading ROCOR
      luminaries. ROCOR should not trust those who have lied
      and continue to lie to their flock and to the world. The
      MP calls for "unification." But is is not a diplomatic
      agreement that is needed, but a UNIFIED perception in
      all principal areas. If we were witnessing Orthodoxy in
      the same way, then there would be no problems in
      unification -- we would be united by God's will, even if
      we resisted this with all our might.

      "Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt., 7:16. Just
      what "fruits" have been reaped from the "bad tree" called
      MP? Here follows a litany of disregard for the basic
      tenets of Orthodoxy: Instead of denouncing and refusing
      to follow sergianism, there are efforts to apply it globally.
      Cooperation with the non-Orthodox, including shamans
      and Satanists. The canonization of the Royal Family with
      qualifications that nullify its Orthodox meaning. Attempts
      to seize ROCOR parishes by every means throughout
      the world. In the Soviet times, the participation of the
      MP leadership (including today's "patriarch") in the
      Cheka, and denials of such participation, even in the face
      of the most damning evidence. Trading tobacco, spirits,
      diamonds and oil; etc.

      Judging from the Epistle, the ROCOR Bishop's Council
      has decided to overlook a variety of transgressions on
      the part of the MP. They disregard the lies about
      ROCOR that MP functionaries have continually spread
      since 1927. Moreover, they accept on its face various
      pronouncements of the MP August 2000 Council of
      Bishops. The very first paragraph of the ROCOR Epistle
      talks about: "� the long-suffering Russia where we
      observe a beginning of real spiritual awakening." Is it
      possible that ROCOR hierarchs see "real spiritual
      awakening" in Russia solely based on the MP's edict?
      Let us recall that the famous "Stalin constitution" was
      held by many as the most liberal among over 400
      constitutions written by mankind. However, let us also
      recall, that the WORDS of this constitution had no
      bearing on the Soviet reality. And the MP's leadership is
      one flesh and blood with the Soviet nomenklatura.

      A careful reading of the documents of the MP Council
      reconfirms that as yet there cannot be any talk about
      "spiritual awakening." The MP stands mired in its
      apostasy manifest in its disingenuous responses to such
      symptoms as sergianism, its approach to new martyrs,
      and ecumenism.

      The above statement reflects sentiments of ROCOR
      members from around the world. Some of them may be
      found (in Russian) at

      http://www.russia-talk.com/mp-rocor.htm,

      http://www.ipc.od.ua/Sob00_otkl.html and others.

      Commentaries in English may be found here. Editors of
      this web site will be grateful for your comments, as well
      as for information about additional web sites addressing
      this issue.
      ---------------------------------

      ROCOR clergy and faithful will never be silent in the face of these attempts
      to recognize so=called "world orthodoxy" and subvert her stand against
      Sergianism and Ecumenism. It is our right and our duty as Orthodox
      Christians to sepak out.

      With Christ's love,
      Rd. Constantine

      #############################################################
      # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
      # constantinew@... constans@... #
      # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
      #-----------------------------------------------------------#
      # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
      # Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
      #############################################################

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    • Daniel Lieuwen
      ... Our duty is to cooperate with God in the saving of our souls. And part of that involves speaking out against those who use lies and distortions against the
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 7, 2000
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        >The duty of ROCOR clergy and faithful will never be silent in the face of these attempts
        >to recognize so=called "world orthodoxy" and subvert her stand against
        >Sergianism and Ecumenism. It is our right and our duty as Orthodox
        >Christians to sepak out.

        Our duty is to cooperate with God in the saving of our souls.
        And part of that involves speaking out against those who use
        lies and distortions against the bishops.

        That Epistle was extremely balanced. The bishops took the royal
        path of moderation between extremes. We owe them a great deal
        of thanks for their carefully considered words.

        I am extremely disturbed by the lack of charity of
        some of my fellow ROCOR members. There is much that needs healing in
        the Moscow Patriarchate, but much that is positive. I do not agree with
        those who see only one or only the other. We must all work together
        to destroy the bad and encourage the good. And that applies not to just
        the MP or ROCOR, but to the whole Orthodox Church.

        We have our own problems in the ROCOR---including the large number of
        schismatic-threateners who threaten to take their marbles and go home if
        the bishops don't follow the rigid line taken by the threateners. The
        threateners insist that we rewrite history to please them and take a
        much more hostile view to the MP now than we did in the days when she was
        far more enslaved and compromised. If they leave, we will watch them
        go with sorrow at the destructive path they have taken, but we
        should not compromise with them in the least.

        Under the mercy,

        Reader Daniel, St. Elizabeth's Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
      • David Constantine Wright
        ... We do not intend to leave our ROCOR. Rd. Constantine ############################################################# # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 7, 2000
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          On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Daniel Lieuwen wrote:

          > We have our own problems in the ROCOR---including the large number of
          > schismatic-threateners who threaten to take their marbles and go home if
          > the bishops don't follow the rigid line taken by the threateners. The
          > threateners insist that we rewrite history to please them and take a
          > much more hostile view to the MP now than we did in the days when she was
          > far more enslaved and compromised. If they leave, we will watch them
          > go with sorrow at the destructive path they have taken, but we
          > should not compromise with them in the least.

          We do not intend to leave our ROCOR.

          Rd. Constantine

          #############################################################
          # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
          # constantinew@... constans@... #
          # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
          #-----------------------------------------------------------#
          # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
          # Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
          #############################################################
        • Hieromonk Elia
          Bravo Nectarios Manzanero! Truth will out! The criticisms you are answering are from rather shallow thinking persons, clergy and lay.
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 7, 2000
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            Bravo Nectarios Manzanero! Truth will out! The criticisms you are answering are from rather shallow thinking persons, clergy and lay. This is the Orthodox Church. Bishops have been betraying it regularly. For centuries,during the Monothelite and during the iconoclast period there were no Orthodox bishops in Constantinople at all, and the Georgians had to enter Islamic lands for consecration. If all we need to do is follow the bishop, why have we left Greeks, Syrians, Serbs, Armenians our whatever nationality, EXCEPT THAT THEIR BISHOPS DRIFTED INTO HERESY. Orthodox bishops have a worse reputation than used car dealers, and among Russians, we have had Platon, Evlogy, a certain John of Sitka who sold everything for cash and opened a tea shop in San Francisco, Theodosius, Jakovos of Athens for 11 days in 1962, until the people rioted. ..Paisios, who has enter
            tained and renounced every position he could think of. In short, our clergy carry their Grace in earthern Vessels. The Apostle tells us to avoid even the appearance of sin. Our Metropolitans have told us to have nothing to do with the "MP" even socially insofar as possible. Around here where people gat most of their information about the Russian Orthodox Church from the media, at first I was considered a Communist. Now a gangster. The farther we stay from them the better. "He who sups with the Devil needs a very long spoon: wrote Chaucer


            -
            ---Original Message-----
            From: Ron Manzanero <smartcats@...>
            To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, December 07, 2000 9:17 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Responses of ROCOR Faithful to the recent Sobor's Epistle


            Dear List,

            Reader Daniel writes about "schismatic-threateners" and those who would
            "rewrite history". I feel compelled to ask Reader Daniel and those of
            like-mind: what version of ROCOR history are you reading? Now those of us
            who desire a firm stand against all the evils that the MP represents are
            called schismatics. Well, if it matters any, the MP, and the World Orthodox
            have already called all of us in ROCOR "schismatics". Who are you wanting
            to appease? Our holy ROCOR Metropolitans have already drawn a line in the
            sand, why is there a desire to erase it? If there occurs a split in the
            ROCOR faithful, those on the side of the line with our Metropolitans will
            not be the ones creating a schism.

            In Christ,

            Nectarios Manzanero



            on 12/7/00 8:28 AM, Daniel Lieuwen at lieuwen@...-labs.com wrote:

            > We have our own problems in the ROCOR---including the large number of
            > schismatic-threateners who threaten to take their marbles and go home if
            > the bishops don't follow the rigid line taken by the threateners. The
            > threateners insist that we rewrite history to please them and take a
            > much more hostile view to the MP now than we did in the days when she was
            > far more enslaved and compromised. If they leave, we will watch them
            > go with sorrow at the destructive path they have taken, but we
            > should not compromise with them in the least.
            >
            > Under the mercy,
            >
            > Reader Daniel, St. Elizabeth's Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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          • Ron Manzanero
            Dear List, Reader Daniel writes about schismatic-threateners and those who would rewrite history . I feel compelled to ask Reader Daniel and those of
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 7, 2000
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              Dear List,

              Reader Daniel writes about "schismatic-threateners" and those who would
              "rewrite history". I feel compelled to ask Reader Daniel and those of
              like-mind: what version of ROCOR history are you reading? Now those of us
              who desire a firm stand against all the evils that the MP represents are
              called schismatics. Well, if it matters any, the MP, and the World Orthodox
              have already called all of us in ROCOR "schismatics". Who are you wanting
              to appease? Our holy ROCOR Metropolitans have already drawn a line in the
              sand, why is there a desire to erase it? If there occurs a split in the
              ROCOR faithful, those on the side of the line with our Metropolitans will
              not be the ones creating a schism.

              In Christ,

              Nectarios Manzanero



              on 12/7/00 8:28 AM, Daniel Lieuwen at lieuwen@...-labs.com wrote:

              > We have our own problems in the ROCOR---including the large number of
              > schismatic-threateners who threaten to take their marbles and go home if
              > the bishops don't follow the rigid line taken by the threateners. The
              > threateners insist that we rewrite history to please them and take a
              > much more hostile view to the MP now than we did in the days when she was
              > far more enslaved and compromised. If they leave, we will watch them
              > go with sorrow at the destructive path they have taken, but we
              > should not compromise with them in the least.
              >
              > Under the mercy,
              >
              > Reader Daniel, St. Elizabeth's Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
            • msg
              After an involuntary hiatus from the ORTHODOX list caused by his cross-posting of a message meant only for Orthodox-Synod, Adrian has returned with little
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 12, 2000
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                After an involuntary hiatus from the ORTHODOX list caused by
                his cross-posting of a message meant only for Orthodox-Synod,
                Adrian has returned with little discretion with a response to
                one biting analysis by Bp Tikhon. Both their posts represent
                a level of discourse we want to reduce. If not ad hominem,
                certainly they're judgmental and too personal and therefore
                not acceptable in a forum trying to maintain a non-hostile
                environment.

                I for one do not understand why 'ROCOR Faithful' are airing their
                gripes and waging their disagreements in a public arena such as
                the ORTHODOX list (and several others), when there is a forum for
                ROCA issues (Orthodox-Synod) where the audience *is* interested,
                or at least interested in seeking the best for ROCA.

                What is the purpose of airing grievances before the world on ORTHODOX?
                Is it to seek acceptance from world orthodoxy? Conversely, what is
                the purpose of airing grievances before the world on PARADOSIS and
                elsewhere? Is it the seeking of a skewed vote of confidence (like an
                e-groups poll?) As the OCA Bp Tikhon writes often in response to
                absurdities: "What an idea!"

                There is much to offer which is good, but in light of what we often
                see posted, is it really any wonder that people pin traditional
                orthodoxy with labels of dissention, angst and judgement?

                I have asked for the "kooky" and the "balanced" alike to post their
                ROCA-specific concerns to the orthodox-synod list - for reasons of
                relevancy, and for reasons of mutual understanding.

                ROCA's witness to the larger ORTHODOX world should be one of unity
                in the pursuit of the One Thing Needful. Let us consider the second
                half of the Sobor Epistle more than the first half. Who can disagree
                with the call to personal piety? Who can argue against its effective-
                ness in light of the miraculous events ushered into the life of
                Russia by the repentance of the faithful both in the diaspora
                and in the catacomb and upon the Glorification of the New Martyrs
                (in 1981). May the force of piety among the faithful in Russia
                continue to drive the MP in the direction towards truth. May their
                partial glorification of the saints martyred (in part) by their
                own collusion effect even more miracles - including the trans-
                formation of the heart of the MP into the heart of the Church.

                Clergy shouldn't argue in public, but instead come to the faithful
                (who need to hear words of instruction and inspiration on the path
                of salvation), with homily and prayer. We have clergy lists for
                nitty gritty communications. Following that example let's seek the
                correct venue for each discussion.

                And let us cease the personal attacks, not just on each other, but
                on those who are not members of this or any other list. Also, in a
                conscious effort to improve the tone please "politely ignore" the
                worst of it all. As I have often said, if you see the error in
                someone's way, so does almost everyone else. There is no need for
                you to publically point it out and, in the process, risk lowering
                yourself to the same level.

                In Christ,
                priest Mark

                ===============

                At 02:40 AM 12/12/00 -0700, you wrote:
                >How do I define a "religio-path"? How about a man who calls himself a
                >bishop, but who never got baptized, who praises atheists, who becomes a
                >mason, [...]

                >On Thu, 7 Dec 2000 21:22:50 -0800 Bishop Tikhon <vladyka@...>
                >writes:

                [...]
                >> gives his attention to The Church. However, poor ROCOR seems to
                >> have
                >> attained an extraordinarily high kook- quotient! Why this latest
                >> Epistle of
                >> the Hierarchy (Actually while many make noises about the MP, the
                >> thing that
                >> really has these kooks with their knickers in a twist is the call
                >> for
                >> sobriety and virtue) has Flushed Out an astounding number of
                >> religio-paths. Isn't there someplace called something like
                >> "monastery
                >> editions" or something that is collecting all the
                >> religio-pathological
                >> output of these religiopaths into one web site? I hope they will
                [...]
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