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More Actions Speak.....RE to Rdr Joseph

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  • Deacon Mark Smith
    Joseph post this one! I did not make something clear and I just fixed it up! ... From: Robert Miller To: Orthodox Synod Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 30, 2000
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      Joseph post this one! I did not make something clear and I just fixed it
      up!

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Robert Miller"
      To: "Orthodox Synod"
      Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS

      > This Orthodox-Synod List is a public forum, for all subscribers
      to read.
      > These posts by Fr Elia contain implications which are elliptical
      second
      > hand references to something very important. In the spirit of
      Christian
      > love, please explain the references to 'Autocephaly' apparently
      'received.'
      > Please be clear, please tell everything. Whatever it is, it is
      now quite
      > out in the open. You flipped up the lid on Pandora's box, and
      turning
      > back or retractions won't work.
      > This post below was originally addressed to Fr Andrew Kencis,
      whose
      > positions have been clear. His response would be interesting.
      > That Autocephaly word is loaded with implications and
      ramifications, so
      > someone really should now respond with facts.
      >
      > Joseph Mi

      Dear Reader Joseph,

      I was forwarded this letter from you and was quite troubled by my name
      being dragged up on these gossip forums.

      This post was not originally address to me as you wrote he just merely
      CC'd it to me as he knows I have left all the lists (except one now
      that I will try out for a bit... it seems level headed and
      quiet so far).

      What Father Elia is referring to are the things that every Priest who
      attended Atlanta heard. Fr. Victor stating that we must accept autonomy
      from the MP and wait twenty years before joining
      them. What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me two
      years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
      Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
      "autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."

      So we see now the plan being implemented. How else can you explain the
      vicious attacks made on anyone who stills holds to the "Old Church
      policy", a policy which is well known even by
      our enemies. Lumping us with those who have departed our Church already
      fifteen or more years ago,

      The documents he refers to (in his subsequent posts) are the posts that
      have been sent to me from all over the internet and are public
      knowledge. But the fact remains that what he is writing IS
      correct. I suggest you ask the priests who where there.

      I am going to append a letter that I sent out last night... By the way I
      do not mind if you place this out on your list as a continuation of your
      wanting the "truth." Actually, please do this for me.

      If anything I have said here is incorrect I would be grateful to be told
      this, and be corrected. But I am not interested in arguing with those
      who have dulled there minds to history, and have
      forgotten there first love, being more interested in serving the
      powerful of this world. Our Bishops have called us to deepen our inner
      life and we must take advantage of this. But you know
      what happens then when we start reading the Holy Fathers and praying
      more? We start to realize how most of this stuff about "being in the
      fullness", etc. is just a temptation of the evil one making us think
      that we are "outside of the fullness" and somehow are not real because
      joe from astrakhan cannot commune with us every sunday. I commune with
      Christ every Liturgy and His Grace is sufficient for me.

      With love in our Lord!
      Fr. Andrew

      please "cc" a copy to me when you post this.

      Here is what I wrote....

      What about Deacon Basil's opinion.?(Just what I would
      expect
      Bp.Hilarion to say)

      I was answering this question as seen above.

      Well he is on this list also.

      What I think, is that our Deacon Basil and many others (even myself
      at times) do not want to believe what we have read and are contenting
      ourselves with the
      soothing words we hear to the contrary. We want to believe that we
      can just go on status qou, arguing with the shaws, lebedeffs, potapovs
      and whiteheads of
      this world trying to prove (to whom?) that we are not in communion
      with worldly orthodoxy and beating our heads trying to maintain our
      remembrances of
      the Synod in its glory days! We spend our time reading all the
      incredible works that where produced from that era! But the fact
      remains.... Our bishops have
      for the first time acknowledged the MP. Even to the point that they
      state for all the world to see that the Russian people can now pray to
      the New Martyrs
      because of the MP!!! Even the MP called it "revolutionary!" Doesn't
      this mean something?

      If they do not mean this then let them correct it ...it is very
      simple. The rest of the epistle is good of course... how can you argue
      with a call to prayer. But if it
      is being done with the intention of telling us to "stay out of
      these other matters" (as the OCA and the MP have been doing for years)
      this is another story. But
      again we love our hierarchs and are willing to overlook and even
      blind ourselves to what is clearly happening. It makes me shudder
      sometimes when I think
      that the Evil One is using our "Christian sense of long-suffering
      and forgiveness against us!" Think about this for a moment... the
      communists have used this
      very effectively and the "others" have been telling there flocks
      this for a long time. Even in Professor Andreyev's time, he argues
      against this very point which
      he calls "Church Tolstoyism." (This just so happens to be in our
      newly published book)

      But of course if we live for THIS world then all these things make
      us mad. But if we keep our eyes on the Kingdom of Heaven as it says in
      our creed,
      understanding that all this was foretold (i.e. the great Apostasy)
      then we can only take the good advise given to us to increase our prayer
      life! Trusting that our
      Lord promised that the days would be cut short. It is interesting
      to note that on one of the "other lists" an OCA archpriest made the
      comment that "this epistle
      was not apocalyptic in its tone" and that this "made him happy."
      Isn't this scandalous?

      I understand that Father Paisius did not "repent" he stuck to his
      convictions and it just so happened that there was no one to serve at
      the Synod for American
      Thanksgiving so guess who was asked to serve........

      Also I wonder how many of you know that the priests in Geneva where
      not suspended for there attempt to take over the Church there. Bishop
      Ambrose just
      "busted" the archpriest for one day to the great dishonor of
      wearing a silver cross.... then the next day gave him back his other
      one! The second priest I
      understand is right now in Russia studying!!! (If I got this wrong
      please somebody correct) But father Paisius gets suspended because he
      spoke out as MANY
      are doing! I would like to hear a reply to this one! It definitely
      does not help morale and only confirms our fears. Well I for one
      consider Fr. Paisius to have
      been given a great honor and distinction. May God grant us to be
      worthy of crowns also.

      Father Andrew




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      ... What is interesting to me, is that 1) when I wrote to a fellow-priest two years or so ago, I thought that I could make private remarks in confidence; 2)
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 1, 2000
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        On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Deacon Mark Smith wrote:

        > What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me two
        > years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
        > Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
        > "autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."
        >
        > With love in our Lord!
        > Fr. Andrew
        >
        What is interesting to me, is that 1) when I wrote to a
        fellow-priest two years or so ago, I thought that I could make private
        remarks in confidence; 2) although I mentioned having had a brief
        correspondince with the Patriarch, I did *not* say that he wrote to me
        about any church administrative questions. 3) I may have referred, in the
        same posting to Fr. Andrew or later, that Patriarch Alexy II has more than
        once stated *publicly* that he would be willing to allow the Church Abroad
        full inner autonomy (not "autocephaly") if mutual recognition were
        achieved; but he did not write that to *me*, nor did I ever mean to give
        anyone the idea that he did.

        Patriarch Alexy has also suggested (again publicly, and some years
        ago) that if there were mutual recognition, he would be glad to have *all*
        churches outside the former USSR under the aegis of the Church Abroad. But
        all these remarks were made during a period when there were no direct
        discussions between the Patriarchate and the Synod. If the two hierarchies
        are going to address each other face-to-face, both can state their
        positions.
        IN Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • fr elia yenovkian
        ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS KISS THE HAND OF A MASS MURDERER, A JUDAS, ORDER OF LENIN ( First Class) Hero of the Soviet Union, and then all our
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 1, 2000
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          ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS KISS THE HAND OF A MASS MURDERER, A
          JUDAS, ORDER OF LENIN ( First Class) Hero of the Soviet Union, and
          then all our churches can be infiltrated, and become outposts
          for the KGB.
          INFILTRATED? WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO LOSE? Let's just get a
          blessing from the Metropolitan, before we do. (Did you Fr.
          Shaw?) Are the present activities not in defiance of the
          Pre-Sobor Epistle? And every Metropolitan we ever had? THEY ALL
          HAD THE SAME OFFER, EXACTLY. MET. EVLOGY even accepted it, BUT THE
          FAITHFUL NEVER WILL, NO MATTER WHAT OUR TRULY BELOVED BISHOPS
          DO. Let us pray that they do not look ridiculous because when
          they walk in the church the people could walk out!

          Fr. Elia

          http://www2.netdoor.com/~frelia

          Burning Bush Skete

          "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:

          > On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Deacon Mark Smith wrote:
          >
          > > What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me two
          > > years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
          >
          > > Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
          > > "autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."
          > >
          > > With love in our Lord!
          > > Fr. Andrew
          > >
          > What is interesting to me, is that 1) when I wrote to a
          > fellow-priest two years or so ago, I thought that I could make private
          >
          > remarks in confidence; 2) although I mentioned having had a brief
          > correspondince with the Patriarch, I did *not* say that he wrote to me
          >
          > about any church administrative questions. 3) I may have referred, in
          > the
          > same posting to Fr. Andrew or later, that Patriarch Alexy II has more
          > than
          > once stated *publicly* that he would be willing to allow the Church
          > Abroad
          > full inner autonomy (not "autocephaly") if mutual recognition were
          > achieved; but he did not write that to *me*, nor did I ever mean to
          > give
          > anyone the idea that he did.
          >
          > Patriarch Alexy has also suggested (again publicly, and some
          > years
          > ago) that if there were mutual recognition, he would be glad to have
          > *all*
          > churches outside the former USSR under the aegis of the Church Abroad.
          > But
          > all these remarks were made during a period when there were no direct
          > discussions between the Patriarchate and the Synod. If the two
          > hierarchies
          > are going to address each other face-to-face, both can state their
          > positions.
          > IN Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
          >
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rev. John R. Shaw
          ... My point was that I had been misquoted. I was merely trying to present information. The last time I saw Metropolitan Vitaly personally was before he was
          Message 4 of 4 , Dec 1, 2000
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            On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, fr elia yenovkian wrote:

            > INFILTRATED? WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO LOSE? Let's just get a
            > blessing from the Metropolitan, before we do. (Did you Fr.
            > Shaw?)

            My point was that I had been misquoted. I was merely trying to
            present information.

            The last time I saw Metropolitan Vitaly personally was before he
            was Metropolitan yet--in 1976 at Vl. Nikon's funeral. At present he is
            said to be unable to read letters because of poor vision, and I can hardly
            envision calling him up before replying to an e-mail. In any case, he is
            not my diocesan bishop.

            I couild just as well ask *you* if you "got the Metroplitan's
            blessing" before beginning all these public attacks on the decisions of
            our hierarchy.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
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