More Actions Speak.....RE to Rdr Joseph
- Joseph post this one! I did not make something clear and I just fixed it
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Miller"
To: "Orthodox Synod"
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS
> This Orthodox-Synod List is a public forum, for all subscribers
> These posts by Fr Elia contain implications which are elliptical
> hand references to something very important. In the spirit of
> love, please explain the references to 'Autocephaly' apparently
> Please be clear, please tell everything. Whatever it is, it is
> out in the open. You flipped up the lid on Pandora's box, and
> back or retractions won't work.
> This post below was originally addressed to Fr Andrew Kencis,
> positions have been clear. His response would be interesting.
> That Autocephaly word is loaded with implications and
> someone really should now respond with facts.
> Joseph Mi
Dear Reader Joseph,
I was forwarded this letter from you and was quite troubled by my name
being dragged up on these gossip forums.
This post was not originally address to me as you wrote he just merely
CC'd it to me as he knows I have left all the lists (except one now
that I will try out for a bit... it seems level headed and
quiet so far).
What Father Elia is referring to are the things that every Priest who
attended Atlanta heard. Fr. Victor stating that we must accept autonomy
from the MP and wait twenty years before joining
them. What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me two
years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
"autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."
So we see now the plan being implemented. How else can you explain the
vicious attacks made on anyone who stills holds to the "Old Church
policy", a policy which is well known even by
our enemies. Lumping us with those who have departed our Church already
fifteen or more years ago,
The documents he refers to (in his subsequent posts) are the posts that
have been sent to me from all over the internet and are public
knowledge. But the fact remains that what he is writing IS
correct. I suggest you ask the priests who where there.
I am going to append a letter that I sent out last night... By the way I
do not mind if you place this out on your list as a continuation of your
wanting the "truth." Actually, please do this for me.
If anything I have said here is incorrect I would be grateful to be told
this, and be corrected. But I am not interested in arguing with those
who have dulled there minds to history, and have
forgotten there first love, being more interested in serving the
powerful of this world. Our Bishops have called us to deepen our inner
life and we must take advantage of this. But you know
what happens then when we start reading the Holy Fathers and praying
more? We start to realize how most of this stuff about "being in the
fullness", etc. is just a temptation of the evil one making us think
that we are "outside of the fullness" and somehow are not real because
joe from astrakhan cannot commune with us every sunday. I commune with
Christ every Liturgy and His Grace is sufficient for me.
With love in our Lord!
please "cc" a copy to me when you post this.
Here is what I wrote....
What about Deacon Basil's opinion.?(Just what I would
Bp.Hilarion to say)
I was answering this question as seen above.
Well he is on this list also.
What I think, is that our Deacon Basil and many others (even myself
at times) do not want to believe what we have read and are contenting
ourselves with the
soothing words we hear to the contrary. We want to believe that we
can just go on status qou, arguing with the shaws, lebedeffs, potapovs
and whiteheads of
this world trying to prove (to whom?) that we are not in communion
with worldly orthodoxy and beating our heads trying to maintain our
the Synod in its glory days! We spend our time reading all the
incredible works that where produced from that era! But the fact
remains.... Our bishops have
for the first time acknowledged the MP. Even to the point that they
state for all the world to see that the Russian people can now pray to
the New Martyrs
because of the MP!!! Even the MP called it "revolutionary!" Doesn't
this mean something?
If they do not mean this then let them correct it ...it is very
simple. The rest of the epistle is good of course... how can you argue
with a call to prayer. But if it
is being done with the intention of telling us to "stay out of
these other matters" (as the OCA and the MP have been doing for years)
this is another story. But
again we love our hierarchs and are willing to overlook and even
blind ourselves to what is clearly happening. It makes me shudder
sometimes when I think
that the Evil One is using our "Christian sense of long-suffering
and forgiveness against us!" Think about this for a moment... the
communists have used this
very effectively and the "others" have been telling there flocks
this for a long time. Even in Professor Andreyev's time, he argues
against this very point which
he calls "Church Tolstoyism." (This just so happens to be in our
newly published book)
But of course if we live for THIS world then all these things make
us mad. But if we keep our eyes on the Kingdom of Heaven as it says in
understanding that all this was foretold (i.e. the great Apostasy)
then we can only take the good advise given to us to increase our prayer
life! Trusting that our
Lord promised that the days would be cut short. It is interesting
to note that on one of the "other lists" an OCA archpriest made the
comment that "this epistle
was not apocalyptic in its tone" and that this "made him happy."
Isn't this scandalous?
I understand that Father Paisius did not "repent" he stuck to his
convictions and it just so happened that there was no one to serve at
the Synod for American
Thanksgiving so guess who was asked to serve........
Also I wonder how many of you know that the priests in Geneva where
not suspended for there attempt to take over the Church there. Bishop
"busted" the archpriest for one day to the great dishonor of
wearing a silver cross.... then the next day gave him back his other
one! The second priest I
understand is right now in Russia studying!!! (If I got this wrong
please somebody correct) But father Paisius gets suspended because he
spoke out as MANY
are doing! I would like to hear a reply to this one! It definitely
does not help morale and only confirms our fears. Well I for one
consider Fr. Paisius to have
been given a great honor and distinction. May God grant us to be
worthy of crowns also.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Deacon Mark Smith wrote:
> What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me twoWhat is interesting to me, is that 1) when I wrote to a
> years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
> Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
> "autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."
> With love in our Lord!
> Fr. Andrew
fellow-priest two years or so ago, I thought that I could make private
remarks in confidence; 2) although I mentioned having had a brief
correspondince with the Patriarch, I did *not* say that he wrote to me
about any church administrative questions. 3) I may have referred, in the
same posting to Fr. Andrew or later, that Patriarch Alexy II has more than
once stated *publicly* that he would be willing to allow the Church Abroad
full inner autonomy (not "autocephaly") if mutual recognition were
achieved; but he did not write that to *me*, nor did I ever mean to give
anyone the idea that he did.
Patriarch Alexy has also suggested (again publicly, and some years
ago) that if there were mutual recognition, he would be glad to have *all*
churches outside the former USSR under the aegis of the Church Abroad. But
all these remarks were made during a period when there were no direct
discussions between the Patriarchate and the Synod. If the two hierarchies
are going to address each other face-to-face, both can state their
Fr. John R. Shaw
- ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS KISS THE HAND OF A MASS MURDERER, A
JUDAS, ORDER OF LENIN ( First Class) Hero of the Soviet Union, and
then all our churches can be infiltrated, and become outposts
for the KGB.
INFILTRATED? WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO LOSE? Let's just get a
blessing from the Metropolitan, before we do. (Did you Fr.
Shaw?) Are the present activities not in defiance of the
Pre-Sobor Epistle? And every Metropolitan we ever had? THEY ALL
HAD THE SAME OFFER, EXACTLY. MET. EVLOGY even accepted it, BUT THE
FAITHFUL NEVER WILL, NO MATTER WHAT OUR TRULY BELOVED BISHOPS
DO. Let us pray that they do not look ridiculous because when
they walk in the church the people could walk out!
Burning Bush Skete
"Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Deacon Mark Smith wrote:[Click Here!]
> > What is interesting is that Fr. John Shaw wrote this to me two
> > years ago... "that he was in personal correspondence with Patriarch
> > Alexis who told him that he would allow us to remain
> > "autonomous" if we would acknowledged him."
> > With love in our Lord!
> > Fr. Andrew
> What is interesting to me, is that 1) when I wrote to a
> fellow-priest two years or so ago, I thought that I could make private
> remarks in confidence; 2) although I mentioned having had a brief
> correspondince with the Patriarch, I did *not* say that he wrote to me
> about any church administrative questions. 3) I may have referred, in
> same posting to Fr. Andrew or later, that Patriarch Alexy II has more
> once stated *publicly* that he would be willing to allow the Church
> full inner autonomy (not "autocephaly") if mutual recognition were
> achieved; but he did not write that to *me*, nor did I ever mean to
> anyone the idea that he did.
> Patriarch Alexy has also suggested (again publicly, and some
> ago) that if there were mutual recognition, he would be glad to have
> churches outside the former USSR under the aegis of the Church Abroad.
> all these remarks were made during a period when there were no direct
> discussions between the Patriarchate and the Synod. If the two
> are going to address each other face-to-face, both can state their
> IN Christ
> Fr. John R. Shaw
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- On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, fr elia yenovkian wrote:
> INFILTRATED? WHAT HAVE WE GOT TO LOSE? Let's just get aMy point was that I had been misquoted. I was merely trying to
> blessing from the Metropolitan, before we do. (Did you Fr.
The last time I saw Metropolitan Vitaly personally was before he
was Metropolitan yet--in 1976 at Vl. Nikon's funeral. At present he is
said to be unable to read letters because of poor vision, and I can hardly
envision calling him up before replying to an e-mail. In any case, he is
not my diocesan bishop.
I couild just as well ask *you* if you "got the Metroplitan's
blessing" before beginning all these public attacks on the decisions of
Fr. John R. Shaw