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Prayer for a stillborn baby

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  • Rdr Honerkamp
    Someone I know lost their baby today. The parents are not Orthodox. Please tell me if there are any specific prayers to offer on behalf of a baby who was
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 21, 2000
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      Someone I know lost their baby today. The parents are not Orthodox.
      Please tell me if there are any specific prayers to offer on behalf
      of a baby who was stillborn or for the parents and how I can quickly
      find the text.
    • pvgol@aol.com
      I also know someone whose child was stillborn. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that there is a special service that can be found in the Trebnik
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 21, 2000
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        I also know someone whose child was stillborn. I believe (someone correct me
        if I am wrong) that there is a special service that can be found in the
        Trebnik (Great Book of Needs).

        Hope this helps.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Deacon Mark Smith
        Dear in Christ Reader Andrew, I see that for 7-1/2 hours no one has offered an answer. I don t know why, but I want to answer, perhaps because my wife and I
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 21, 2000
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          Dear in Christ Reader Andrew,
          I see that for 7-1/2 hours no one has offered an answer.
          I don't know why, but I want to answer, perhaps because my wife
          and I lost 2 to miscarriges before becoming Orthodox, and one after.
          God, all-wise and all-loving, knows why and we humans only know that
          it is emotionally painful. The saddest part is that the child never had
          Orthodox baptism, tears can be shed over this, but again only God
          knows why. Lord have mercy can be said at any time, in any situation,
          and in fact we can always be certain that God is always, continually
          having mercy. God, in his wisdom, mercy and love, has decided the fate
          of this little one, as always in the way that gives the best prospects of
          salvation for all involved, perhaps to bring about a soul saving sobriety,
          but again God alone knows.
          I am sorry, this may not seem like much of an answer, but the only real
          comfort in this situation can only come in faith in the True God and his
          exceeding wisdom, mercy and love.
          There are no Orthodox prayers "written for" this situation. Lord have mercy.
          In Christ,
          Deacon Mark
          Edmonton
          PS.: This is just from my own heart and poor experience, so if it makes
          you angry or iritates you, just forget I said anything.

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Rdr Honerkamp
          To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 2:11 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


          Someone I know lost their baby today. The parents are not Orthodox.
          Please tell me if there are any specific prayers to offer on behalf
          of a baby who was stillborn or for the parents and how I can quickly
          find the text.









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          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • pvgol@aol.com
          Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your comments are unfounded. If you refer to both the Great Book of Needs and the Trebnik
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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            Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
            comments are unfounded.

            If you refer to both the Great Book of Needs and the Trebnik the following
            prayers will be found:

            Trebnik: Look up "Molitva Zhene yegda izverzhet mladentsa"

            Great Book of Needs (St. Tikhon's Monastery):
            Look up Prayer for a Woman when She has Miscarried/Aborted an Infant. Volume
            1, page 16.

            In both books, these prayers follow the Prayers for a Woman on the Fortieth
            day of Childbirth.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Robert Miller
            ... From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <pvgol@...>
              To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:15 AM
              Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


              > Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
              > comments are unfounded.

              *** For what it's worth, I thought Dcn Fr Mark's comments were from his
              heart and experience, and quite founded in a very sad human situation.
              There is comfort not only prayer and the Church, but also in the simple
              human compassion of carrying by sympathy another's burden.

              Joseph M
            • frmichaelc@aol.com
              I hope these help. May God comfort your friend and all mothers who have suffered this tragedy. priest Michael Carney St. Herman of Alaska Mission Grand Rapids,
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                I hope these help. May God comfort your friend and all mothers who have
                suffered this tragedy.


                priest Michael Carney
                St. Herman of Alaska Mission
                Grand Rapids, MI

                The following prayers were taken from "Molitvenniy Shchit Pravoslavnago
                Khristiana", published in Voronezh in 1999. Most of this prayerbook is made
                up of prayers which, like the ones below, are intended for home use. The
                following prayers assume the Orthodoxy of the mother, and so may not be a
                "perfect fit" to this situation. They ought to be easily adaptable, though.

                The translations are my own and should not be taken as definitive or
                authoritative:

                Prayers for Stillborn and Unbaptized Children

                A prayer of Gregory, metropolitan of Novgorod and Petersburg

                Remember, O Lord the Lover of Mankind, the souls of thy departed servants,
                those infants who have unexpectedly died in the wombs of their Orthodox
                mothers, whether from unknown causes, or from difficult labor, or from
                whatever carelessness, and for which cause have not received the holy mystery
                of baptism. Baptize them, O Lord, in the ocean of Thy compassions and save
                them by Thine unutterable grace. Amen

                A prayer of Arsenius the Athonite for a mother to pray for her stillborn
                and unbaptized children:

                O Lord, have mercy on my children who have died in my womb! On account of my
                faith and tears, for the sake of Thy mercy, O Lord, do not deprive them of
                Thy Divine light!
              • Theodora
                snip ... Just catching up on posts and I must agree with the above. I was very moved by the heart felt sadness and love in Fr. Mark s post. Thank you and
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                  snip


                  > From: <pvgol@...>
                  > To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:15 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                  >
                  >
                  > > Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
                  > > comments are unfounded.
                  >
                  > *** For what it's worth, I thought Dcn Fr Mark's comments were from his
                  > heart and experience, and quite founded in a very sad human situation.
                  > There is comfort not only prayer and the Church, but also in the simple
                  > human compassion of carrying by sympathy another's burden.
                  >
                  > Joseph M
                  >

                  Just catching up on posts and I must agree with the above. I was very moved
                  by the heart felt sadness and love in Fr. Mark's post. Thank you and know
                  that is nice to see such post...a true sign of "how they love one another"
                  May you be blessed this Thanksgiving

                  Theodora in the mountains
                • Deacon Mark Smith
                  ... From: pvgol@aol.com To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                    >>----- Original Message -----
                    From: pvgol@...
                    To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 10:15 AM
                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                    Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
                    comments are unfounded.<<

                    Please forgive me, some how I knew that some would be offended.I am a very slow typer and was
                    putting much thought and prayer into what I said, therefore it was an hour from the time that I first
                    saw the Reader Andrew's post and the time that I sent my response. When I logged on to send it
                    indeed your response was received.(pvgol)
                    I don't know of any practice of adopting Orthodox prayers for non-orthodox.
                    I thank the rest of you for your support, but apologize to all for any
                    damage done. and repeat the post-script for all: PS.: This is just from
                    my own heart and poor experience, so if it makes
                    you angry or iritates you, just forget I said anything.

                    In Christ, asking the forgivness of all,
                    Deacon Mark Smith
                    Edmonton




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Robert Miller
                    I will say again, the critical comment did not reflect my thought. It is also possible the comment was not intended to be critical. Christian love would
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                      I will say again, the critical comment did not reflect my thought. It is
                      also
                      possible the comment was not intended to be critical. Christian love would
                      suggest we give everyone the benefit of doubt, in any case.

                      Joseph M
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Deacon Mark Smith" <dcnmark@...>
                      To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                      >
                      > >>----- Original Message -----
                      > From: pvgol@...
                      > To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 10:15 AM
                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                      >
                      >
                      > Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
                      > comments are unfounded.<<
                      >
                      > Please forgive me, some how I knew that some would be offended.I am a
                      very slow typer and was
                      > putting much thought and prayer into what I said, therefore it was an
                      hour from the time that I first
                      > saw the Reader Andrew's post and the time that I sent my response. When
                      I logged on to send it
                      > indeed your response was received.(pvgol)
                      > I don't know of any practice of adopting Orthodox prayers for
                      non-orthodox.
                      > I thank the rest of you for your support, but apologize to all for any
                      > damage done. and repeat the post-script for all: PS.: This is just from
                      > my own heart and poor experience, so if it makes
                      > you angry or iritates you, just forget I said anything.
                      >
                      > In Christ, asking the forgivness of all,
                      > Deacon Mark Smith
                      > Edmonton
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Rdr Andrew Honerkamp
                      Thank you all very much for your responses. I was very moved by your words, Fr Dn Mark. You and your Matushka have endured much. I will share your story and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                        Thank you all very much for your responses.

                        I was very moved by your words, Fr Dn Mark. You and your Matushka
                        have endured much. I will share your story and comforting words with
                        Michelle and Aaron.

                        Thank you also, Fr. Michael for the prayers you posted. Perhaps the
                        "Molitvenniy Shchit Pravoslavnago Khristiana" your mentioned will be
                        translated into English someday.

                        It was heartbreaking for this couple because the baby was expected
                        within a very few days and they had been to the doctor the day before
                        and everything had checked out alright. Very sad indeed.

                        Lord have mercy.


                        Rdr Andrew
                      • Rd. Constantine Wright
                        ... Someone else may have already mentioned this, but I ve heard it said that stillborn children (certainly of Orthodox parents, where there was *clearly* the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                          >From: "Deacon Mark Smith" <dcnmark@...>
                          >Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                          >
                          >I don't know why, but I want to answer, perhaps because my wife
                          >and I lost 2 to miscarriges before becoming Orthodox, and one after.
                          >God, all-wise and all-loving, knows why and we humans only know that
                          >it is emotionally painful. The saddest part is that the child never had
                          >Orthodox baptism, tears can be shed over this, but again only God

                          Someone else may have already mentioned this, but I've heard it said that
                          stillborn children (certainly of Orthodox parents, where there was *clearly*
                          the intent to Baptize the child after birth) can be said to have had a
                          "baptism in blood."

                          Also... consider this: We know that through the umbilical cord and placenta
                          the child receives nourishment from its mother in a unique way. If the
                          mother has been partaking of the Holy Mysteries, it's certainly possible
                          IMHO to say that in a mystical and unexplainable way the child has also been
                          receiving Life from the Mysteries, even before birth.

                          With Christ's love,
                          Rd. Constantine

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                        • hermitage@infoave.net
                          My dear reader Constantine, I hope you are well. ... Unfortunately, this comment of yours possibly borders on heresy. Otherwise, taking the implications of
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                            My dear reader Constantine,

                            I hope you are well.

                            You wrote:
                            >Also... consider this: We know that through the umbilical cord and placenta
                            >the child receives nourishment from its mother in a unique way. If the
                            >mother has been partaking of the Holy Mysteries, it's certainly possible
                            >IMHO to say that in a mystical and unexplainable way the child has also been
                            >receiving Life from the Mysteries, even before birth.
                            >
                            >With Christ's love,
                            >Rd. Constantine

                            Unfortunately, this comment of yours possibly borders on heresy.

                            Otherwise, taking the implications of your assertion to the extreme, the
                            mystery of baptism is unnecessary for new-borns of Orthodox parents. And we
                            know this to be in fact untrue.

                            It's a subtle point, but do try to be careful about what you say.Go back and
                            carefully re-read St John Damascene's Exact Exposition.

                            With all good wishes, and my kindest regards to you and yours. And have a
                            very Happy Thanksgiving Day!

                            In Christ,
                            John, monk


                            >
                            >#############################################################
                            ># Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
                            ># constantinew@... constans@... #
                            ># Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
                            >#-----------------------------------------------------------#
                            ># Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
                            ># Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
                            >#############################################################
                            >
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                          • pvgol@aol.com
                            My response was to the statement that for 7 1/2 hours no one had offered an answer.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 22, 2000
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                              My response was to the statement that for 7 1/2 hours no one had offered an
                              answer.
                            • Isaiah Maurice
                              How about a prayer for an unborn child at risk? A ladyfriend of mine is currently facing the paossibility of loing her child... ... From: Theodora To:
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 23, 2000
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                                How about a prayer for an unborn child at risk? A ladyfriend of mine is currently facing the paossibility of loing her child...


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Theodora
                                To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:09 PM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby



                                snip


                                > From: <pvgol@...>
                                > To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:15 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                                >
                                >
                                > > Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
                                > > comments are unfounded.
                                >
                                > *** For what it's worth, I thought Dcn Fr Mark's comments were from his
                                > heart and experience, and quite founded in a very sad human situation.
                                > There is comfort not only prayer and the Church, but also in the simple
                                > human compassion of carrying by sympathy another's burden.
                                >
                                > Joseph M
                                >

                                Just catching up on posts and I must agree with the above. I was very moved
                                by the heart felt sadness and love in Fr. Mark's post. Thank you and know
                                that is nice to see such post...a true sign of "how they love one another"
                                May you be blessed this Thanksgiving

                                Theodora in the mountains




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                                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Theodora
                                snip ... currently facing the paossibility of loing her child... snip I don t know if this post is directed to me but I know that in these times of illnesses
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                  snip
                                  > How about a prayer for an unborn child at risk? A ladyfriend of mine is
                                  currently facing the paossibility of loing her child...

                                  snip

                                  I don't know if this post is directed to me but I know that in these times
                                  of illnesses and trouble there are prayers for illnesses and I think that
                                  the possibility of losing a child is one of the saddest and difficult..and I
                                  think that illness takes many forms and for me, this is one. I know of no
                                  one prayer .I only know that only God knows the future and that trusting Him
                                  is the one thing that will see a body through such times. And it is so hard
                                  to do. I think a prayer from the heart.."Oh Lord thy will be done and grant
                                  the strength and wisdom to bare that which is to come" is one I pray often.
                                  Little ones are God's blessed in my view...before birth and after...perhaps
                                  a Priest on the list has a special prayer...just know that I shall be
                                  praying for all who have posted. Not a great help I know but a true
                                  one...from the heart.

                                  Theodora in the mountains
                                • Robert Miller
                                  Very good point, Fr John. Three cheers. I remain puzzled why a woman who spontaneously aborts is Penanced. In my profession, I often spoke with women who had
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                    Very good point, Fr John. Three cheers.

                                    I remain puzzled why a woman who spontaneously aborts is Penanced.
                                    In my profession, I often spoke with women who had spontaneous abortions.
                                    Without exception, these women were devastated by the
                                    lost of a much much wanted child, had 'done everything right,' sometimes
                                    even several months' bed rest, medications, everything
                                    according to the best medical advice, but still aborted spontaneously,
                                    or miscarried. So there's something I'm missing if that kind of woman
                                    requires Penance. What am I missing?
                                    Women in menses and men with nocturnal emission do not Commune
                                    for simple reasons of piety and because these conditions reflect the
                                    fallen nature of our flesh. Guilt is not the issue. Is this, then, the same
                                    reasoning (pardon the expression) that women who have spontaneously aborted
                                    are Penanced?

                                    Joseph M


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <hermitage@...>
                                    To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 12:15 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                                    > Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                    >
                                    > Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?
                                    >
                                    > Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.
                                    >
                                    > Do a "proxy" prayer for the unborn child, if need be, changing some of the
                                    > pronouns' "addressment".
                                    >
                                    > If I recall, this is the prayer that St Abramios had his daughter St Mary
                                    > say after he rescued her from the brothel:
                                    >
                                    > Short, and sweet, and very accceptable:
                                    >
                                    > "O Thou Who didst create me, have mercy on me."
                                    >
                                    > May God hear this prayer for all of us.
                                    >
                                    > In Christ,
                                    > John, monk
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • hermitage@infoave.net
                                    Why does everything have to become so complex? Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery? Not likely, at least not from this
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                      Why does everything have to become so complex?

                                      Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?

                                      Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.

                                      Do a "proxy" prayer for the unborn child, if need be, changing some of the
                                      pronouns' "addressment".

                                      If I recall, this is the prayer that St Abramios had his daughter St Mary
                                      say after he rescued her from the brothel:

                                      Short, and sweet, and very accceptable:

                                      "O Thou Who didst create me, have mercy on me."

                                      May God hear this prayer for all of us.

                                      In Christ,
                                      John, monk





                                      At 09:06 PM 11/23/00 -0600, you wrote:
                                      >How about a prayer for an unborn child at risk? A ladyfriend of mine is
                                      currently facing the paossibility of loing her child...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Theodora
                                      > To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                                      > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 1:09 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > snip
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > From: <pvgol@...>
                                      > > To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 9:15 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > > Deacon Mark -- Well, an answer was posted prior to your response so your
                                      > > > comments are unfounded.
                                      > >
                                      > > *** For what it's worth, I thought Dcn Fr Mark's comments were from his
                                      > > heart and experience, and quite founded in a very sad human situation.
                                      > > There is comfort not only prayer and the Church, but also in the simple
                                      > > human compassion of carrying by sympathy another's burden.
                                      > >
                                      > > Joseph M
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Just catching up on posts and I must agree with the above. I was very moved
                                      > by the heart felt sadness and love in Fr. Mark's post. Thank you and know
                                      > that is nice to see such post...a true sign of "how they love one another"
                                      > May you be blessed this Thanksgiving
                                      >
                                      > Theodora in the mountains
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > eGroups Sponsor
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Deacon Mark Smith
                                      Dear in Christ Reader Joseph, This is from my experience, Due to the physical state of a mother who has miscarried, (bleeding etc...), and the great emotional
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                        Dear in Christ Reader Joseph,
                                        This is from my experience, "Due to the physical state of a mother who has miscarried, (bleeding etc...),
                                        and the great emotional lose, the Holy Church places a penance on the
                                        woman. The severity may depend on the reasons for the miscarriage,
                                        was there neglect or lack of care taken or any other actions that caused
                                        the lose of life, this is all concidered by the pastor and/or spiritual father."
                                        And I add that a penance is for spiritual healing whenever needed. The Holy Fathers of our church have recieved this from God, my priest and those whom he consulted about this did not make it up. Perhaps we need
                                        to change our veiw of penances and except them more often as God's medicine for us. It, in our experience, was spiritually beneficial, you won't know until you've been there.
                                        The mother is involved with the creation process a fearful and awesome thing, if death takes place inside of her then something is wrong, God alone knows, yes perhaps everything external was done "right", but still God in His ineffable wisdom, chose not to allow a live birth.
                                        I don't like the term "spontaneous abortion", abortion is murder, and that term seems, the way it's being used,to start to bridge the gap and make "one type of abortion" sound ok, personally I will continue to use "miscarriage".
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Robert Miller
                                        To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 12:36 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                                        Very good point, Fr John. Three cheers.

                                        I remain puzzled why a woman who spontaneously aborts is Penanced.
                                        In my profession, I often spoke with women who had spontaneous abortions.
                                        Without exception, these women were devastated by the
                                        lost of a much much wanted child, had 'done everything right,' sometimes
                                        even several months' bed rest, medications, everything
                                        according to the best medical advice, but still aborted spontaneously,
                                        or miscarried. So there's something I'm missing if that kind of woman
                                        requires Penance. What am I missing?
                                        Women in menses and men with nocturnal emission do not Commune
                                        for simple reasons of piety and because these conditions reflect the
                                        fallen nature of our flesh. Guilt is not the issue. Is this, then, the same
                                        reasoning (pardon the expression) that women who have spontaneously aborted
                                        are Penanced?

                                        Joseph M


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: <hermitage@...>
                                        To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 12:15 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                                        > Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                        >
                                        > Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?
                                        >
                                        > Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.
                                        >
                                        > Do a "proxy" prayer for the unborn child, if need be, changing some of the
                                        > pronouns' "addressment".
                                        >
                                        > If I recall, this is the prayer that St Abramios had his daughter St Mary
                                        > say after he rescued her from the brothel:
                                        >
                                        > Short, and sweet, and very accceptable:
                                        >
                                        > "O Thou Who didst create me, have mercy on me."
                                        >
                                        > May God hear this prayer for all of us.
                                        >
                                        > In Christ,
                                        > John, monk
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Theodora
                                        snip ... snip Please excuse and forgive any error in my responce but I don t understand why my response is so complex or Roman. I thought my prayer much as
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                          snip
                                          > Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                          >
                                          > Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?
                                          >
                                          > Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.

                                          snip

                                          Please excuse and forgive any error in my responce but I don't understand
                                          why my response is so complex or Roman. I thought my prayer much as your
                                          suggestion and glad to see that but if I error in my answer please explain.
                                          I think it quiet right to ask for prayers and this not a Roman thing. I can
                                          somewhat confused now.

                                          Theodora in the mountains
                                        • hermitage@infoave.net
                                          Dear Dr Joseph, The way I am looking at it, and I never claim to be a theologian, or whatever: Is that perhaps re miscarriage, with the canons in mind, such is
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                            Dear Dr Joseph,

                                            The way I am looking at it, and I never claim to be a theologian, or whatever:

                                            Is that perhaps re miscarriage, with the canons in mind, such is not always
                                            prove-ably not somehow related, even obliquely, to abortion? (Historically
                                            proven, even in modern times, the use of drugs, etc)

                                            Thus to obviate the un-provable causes of an intentional miscarriage,
                                            perhaps the Church "nipped it in the bud" as it were.

                                            The several days after a woman's giving birth to not enter the Church proper
                                            is NOT penance, necessarily. So far as I can tell, it is basically just
                                            Scriptural, and if the Theotokos adhered to such strictures, well....and
                                            what logically follows.

                                            My heart and empathy is with the gals who innocently have miscarriage,
                                            indeed. And for their maternal sufferings, I will weep.

                                            I say, let's keep it simple.

                                            And I also ask that if I have erred in my opinions that my peers and betters
                                            (which is just about everybody) correct me.

                                            My best to you.

                                            In Christ, yours

                                            John, monk





                                            At 11:36 AM 11/24/00 -0800, you wrote:
                                            >Very good point, Fr John. Three cheers.
                                            >
                                            >I remain puzzled why a woman who spontaneously aborts is Penanced.
                                            >In my profession, I often spoke with women who had spontaneous abortions.
                                            >Without exception, these women were devastated by the
                                            >lost of a much much wanted child, had 'done everything right,' sometimes
                                            >even several months' bed rest, medications, everything
                                            >according to the best medical advice, but still aborted spontaneously,
                                            >or miscarried. So there's something I'm missing if that kind of woman
                                            >requires Penance. What am I missing?
                                            >Women in menses and men with nocturnal emission do not Commune
                                            >for simple reasons of piety and because these conditions reflect the
                                            >fallen nature of our flesh. Guilt is not the issue. Is this, then, the same
                                            >reasoning (pardon the expression) that women who have spontaneously aborted
                                            >are Penanced?
                                            >
                                            >Joseph M
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >----- Original Message -----
                                            >From: <hermitage@...>
                                            >To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                            >Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 12:15 PM
                                            >Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                            >>
                                            >> Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?
                                            >>
                                            >> Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.
                                            >>
                                            >> Do a "proxy" prayer for the unborn child, if need be, changing some of the
                                            >> pronouns' "addressment".
                                            >>
                                            >> If I recall, this is the prayer that St Abramios had his daughter St Mary
                                            >> say after he rescued her from the brothel:
                                            >>
                                            >> Short, and sweet, and very accceptable:
                                            >>
                                            >> "O Thou Who didst create me, have mercy on me."
                                            >>
                                            >> May God hear this prayer for all of us.
                                            >>
                                            >> In Christ,
                                            >> John, monk
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • hermitage@infoave.net
                                            My dear Theodora, Do try to stop internalising everything, please. Been there, done it, and it goes nowhere. Trust me. The reply, below (with snippets) was
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                              My dear Theodora,

                                              Do try to stop internalising everything, please. <S> Been there, done it,
                                              and it goes nowhere. Trust me.

                                              The reply, below (with snippets) was NOT directed at you. Though *this*
                                              message is directly to you, publically. (I do not like private messeges, for
                                              the most part)

                                              The former was a general mesasge to the listserv.

                                              I wish to you and yours all the blessings that flow down from the Source of
                                              good things!

                                              Asking your prayers,
                                              In Christ, yours
                                              John, monk

                                              PS You seem like a really nice lady, btw.



                                              At 03:38 PM 11/24/00 -0500, you wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >snip
                                              >> Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                              >>
                                              >> Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every mystery?
                                              >>
                                              >> Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.
                                              >
                                              >snip
                                              >
                                              >Please excuse and forgive any error in my responce but I don't understand
                                              >why my response is so complex or Roman. I thought my prayer much as your
                                              >suggestion and glad to see that but if I error in my answer please explain.
                                              >I think it quiet right to ask for prayers and this not a Roman thing. I can
                                              >somewhat confused now.
                                              >
                                              >Theodora in the mountains
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Theodora
                                              snip ... for ... of ... snip My husband and I are trying to decided what you mean...what I meant was 1; What is Roman vs Orthodox? 2. What is complex vs
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                                snip

                                                > My dear Theodora,
                                                >
                                                > Do try to stop internalising everything, please. <S> Been there, done it,
                                                > and it goes nowhere. Trust me.
                                                >
                                                > The reply, below (with snippets) was NOT directed at you. Though *this*
                                                > message is directly to you, publically. (I do not like private messeges,
                                                for
                                                > the most part)
                                                >
                                                > The former was a general mesasge to the listserv.
                                                >
                                                > I wish to you and yours all the blessings that flow down from the Source
                                                of
                                                > good things!
                                                >
                                                > Asking your prayers,
                                                > In Christ, yours
                                                > John, monk
                                                >
                                                > PS You seem like a really nice lady, btw.

                                                snip

                                                My husband and I are trying to decided what you mean...what I meant was 1;
                                                What is Roman vs Orthodox?
                                                2. What is complex vs simple in the tread you were responing to. I think
                                                the responses have been very Orthodox so????? I respond in public because
                                                you did. The subject is a difficult one for many women...and some of my
                                                firends who have recently lost their little ones. Nothing personell was
                                                meant.

                                                Theodora in the mountains
                                              • Robert Miller
                                                Well, this and Fr Dcn Mark s suggestions shed some light. Perhaps I have in the mind the wrong definition of Penance. Is Penance a punishment for
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                                  Well, this and Fr Dcn Mark's suggestions shed some light. Perhaps
                                                  I have in the mind the wrong definition of Penance. Is Penance a
                                                  punishment for transgression of law, is it a correction, precisely
                                                  what is it? If it's a correction, what is corrected in the case of a woman
                                                  who miscarries and grieves over it? (Spontaneous abortion really is
                                                  correct medical term, I believe. Miscarriage is all right also, but one
                                                  should not get too involved in playing with the meaning of terms. One can
                                                  distinguish beween that and a deliberate, mother chosen abortion. Or father
                                                  chosen.) I think what I'm still troubled about is this Calvinistic
                                                  notion of "Guilt whether you have sinned or not. Or even if you have
                                                  sinned." The T of the TULIP. Total depravity. Looking back, that's a
                                                  rather mixed up paragraph, so I ask your indulgence to understand
                                                  and not to criticize.

                                                  Joseph M

                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: <hermitage@...>
                                                  To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 1:18 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby


                                                  > Dear Dr Joseph,
                                                  >
                                                  > The way I am looking at it, and I never claim to be a theologian, or
                                                  whatever:
                                                  >
                                                  > Is that perhaps re miscarriage, with the canons in mind, such is not
                                                  always
                                                  > prove-ably not somehow related, even obliquely, to abortion? (Historically
                                                  > proven, even in modern times, the use of drugs, etc)
                                                  >
                                                  > Thus to obviate the un-provable causes of an intentional miscarriage,
                                                  > perhaps the Church "nipped it in the bud" as it were.
                                                  >
                                                  > The several days after a woman's giving birth to not enter the Church
                                                  proper
                                                  > is NOT penance, necessarily. So far as I can tell, it is basically just
                                                  > Scriptural, and if the Theotokos adhered to such strictures, well....and
                                                  > what logically follows.
                                                  >
                                                  > My heart and empathy is with the gals who innocently have miscarriage,
                                                  > indeed. And for their maternal sufferings, I will weep.
                                                  >
                                                  > I say, let's keep it simple.

                                                  *** As simple as possible, but not oversimplify.
                                                  >
                                                  > And I also ask that if I have erred in my opinions that my peers and
                                                  betters
                                                  > (which is just about everybody) correct me.
                                                  >
                                                  > My best to you.
                                                  >
                                                  > In Christ, yours
                                                  >
                                                  > John, monk
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > At 11:36 AM 11/24/00 -0800, you wrote:
                                                  > >Very good point, Fr John. Three cheers.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >I remain puzzled why a woman who spontaneously aborts is Penanced.
                                                  > >In my profession, I often spoke with women who had spontaneous abortions.
                                                  > >Without exception, these women were devastated by the
                                                  > >lost of a much much wanted child, had 'done everything right,'
                                                  sometimes
                                                  > >even several months' bed rest, medications, everything
                                                  > >according to the best medical advice, but still aborted spontaneously,
                                                  > >or miscarried. So there's something I'm missing if that kind of woman
                                                  > >requires Penance. What am I missing?
                                                  > >Women in menses and men with nocturnal emission do not Commune
                                                  > >for simple reasons of piety and because these conditions reflect the
                                                  > >fallen nature of our flesh. Guilt is not the issue. Is this, then, the
                                                  same
                                                  > >reasoning (pardon the expression) that women who have spontaneously
                                                  aborted
                                                  > >are Penanced?
                                                  > >
                                                  > >Joseph M
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >----- Original Message -----
                                                  > >From: <hermitage@...>
                                                  > >To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                                                  > >Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 12:15 PM
                                                  > >Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Prayer for a stillborn baby
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> Why does everything have to become so complex?
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Are we Roman Catholics that we need to scholasticly explain every
                                                  mystery?
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Not likely, at least not from this sector.Thank you very much.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Do a "proxy" prayer for the unborn child, if need be, changing some of
                                                  the
                                                  > >> pronouns' "addressment".
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> If I recall, this is the prayer that St Abramios had his daughter St
                                                  Mary
                                                  > >> say after he rescued her from the brothel:
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> Short, and sweet, and very accceptable:
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> "O Thou Who didst create me, have mercy on me."
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> May God hear this prayer for all of us.
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> In Christ,
                                                  > >> John, monk
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Priest David Moser
                                                  In my experience, the pentitial prayers said over a woman who has had a miscarriage are extremely beneficial to that woman. No matter what she may or may not
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                                    In my experience, the pentitial prayers said over a woman who has had
                                                    a miscarriage are extremely beneficial to that woman. No matter what
                                                    she may or may not have done, my experience has been that when a woman
                                                    miscarries, she secretly harbors the question of her own
                                                    responsibility for the death of the child. By giving her absolution
                                                    of her sin and a penance (I don't like that word either - it is too
                                                    tainted by RC heresy) she is able to shed the internal guilt which she
                                                    will inevitably suffer *and* the penance (obedience, epitimia,
                                                    whatever) gives structure *and* a time limit to her grieving. It
                                                    There are many positive things here that the world does not recognize
                                                    but that the Church in her wisdom not only forsees, but also treats.

                                                    > Well, this and Fr Dcn Mark's suggestions shed some light. Perhaps
                                                    > I have in the mind the wrong definition of Penance. Is Penance a
                                                    > punishment for transgression of law, is it a correction, precisely
                                                    > what is it? If it's a correction, what is corrected

                                                    I think that you might wish to look at the difference between guilt
                                                    and responsiblity. A person may not be guilty of any wrongdoing, but
                                                    may still bear responsibility for some sin. For example, if I
                                                    (especially as a priest) were driving along carefully, obeying all
                                                    traffic laws, being observant and defensive in my driving, seat belt
                                                    buckled.... and some intoxicated person coming the other way, suddenly
                                                    swerves into my path, hits me head on and dies as a result. I am not
                                                    guilty of anything, but I do bear some responsibility for his death -
                                                    I was involved (even if purely by chance). As priest, I would expect
                                                    my bishop to at least consider the necessity of my "retirement" in
                                                    some way for I was involved in the loss of another person's life. I'm
                                                    not "guilty", I didn't do anything wrong, but I am responsible (even
                                                    in a small way). There is more to holiness than blamelessness.

                                                    Pr David Moser
                                                    St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
                                                  • Deacon Mark Smith
                                                    Dear Father David, Father bless. I agree, the word penance seemed to be the stumbling block, and with your experience with the penetential prayers, this is our
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Nov 24, 2000
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                                                      Dear Father David,
                                                      Father bless.
                                                      I agree, the word penance seemed to be the stumbling block, and with your experience with the penetential prayers, this is our experience also.Thank you for your answer.
                                                      Deacon Mark
                                                      Edmonton
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: Priest David Moser
                                                      To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                                                      Sent: Friday, November 24, 2000 5:13 PM
                                                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Prayer for a stillborn baby


                                                      In my experience, the pentitial prayers said over a woman who has had
                                                      a miscarriage are extremely beneficial to that woman. No matter what
                                                      she may or may not have done, my experience has been that when a woman
                                                      miscarries, she secretly harbors the question of her own
                                                      responsibility for the death of the child. By giving her absolution
                                                      of her sin and a penance (I don't like that word either - it is too
                                                      tainted by RC heresy) she is able to shed the internal guilt which she
                                                      will inevitably suffer *and* the penance (obedience, epitimia,
                                                      whatever) gives structure *and* a time limit to her grieving. It
                                                      There are many positive things here that the world does not recognize
                                                      but that the Church in her wisdom not only forsees, but also treats.

                                                      > Well, this and Fr Dcn Mark's suggestions shed some light. Perhaps
                                                      > I have in the mind the wrong definition of Penance. Is Penance a
                                                      > punishment for transgression of law, is it a correction, precisely
                                                      > what is it? If it's a correction, what is corrected

                                                      I think that you might wish to look at the difference between guilt
                                                      and responsiblity. A person may not be guilty of any wrongdoing, but
                                                      may still bear responsibility for some sin. For example, if I
                                                      (especially as a priest) were driving along carefully, obeying all
                                                      traffic laws, being observant and defensive in my driving, seat belt
                                                      buckled.... and some intoxicated person coming the other way, suddenly
                                                      swerves into my path, hits me head on and dies as a result. I am not
                                                      guilty of anything, but I do bear some responsibility for his death -
                                                      I was involved (even if purely by chance). As priest, I would expect
                                                      my bishop to at least consider the necessity of my "retirement" in
                                                      some way for I was involved in the loss of another person's life. I'm
                                                      not "guilty", I didn't do anything wrong, but I am responsible (even
                                                      in a small way). There is more to holiness than blamelessness.

                                                      Pr David Moser
                                                      St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)


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                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • hermitage@infoave.net
                                                      Dear Theodora! I was not the least bit offended, in fact I thought YOU were. heh heh. That s what happens when one reads e-mail too hastily. Mea culpa. Now,
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Nov 25, 2000
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                                                        Dear Theodora!

                                                        I was not the least bit offended, in fact I thought YOU were. heh
                                                        heh. That's what happens when one reads e-mail too hastily. Mea culpa.

                                                        Now, (grr, after computer crash just re-installed e-mail program, and
                                                        forgot to uncheck "empty trash on exiting" so I deleted all the
                                                        emails there.)

                                                        I was never a RC, in fact I was raised lutheran/presbyterian and
                                                        converted at 18 (don't ask how long ago that was...:) so my full
                                                        awareness of RC mindset is a bit scattered, however I am aware that
                                                        after the schism the RCs went into a MAJOR scholastic period, and
                                                        began the dismal process of trying to reduce theology, the mysteries
                                                        and ecclesiology into some concise dialectical format.

                                                        In doing so, they backed themselves into several absurd corners.
                                                        Kinda akin to when telling one lie one has to keep telling more to
                                                        suppport it. The snowball effect, as it were.

                                                        The filioque, the azymes, the "immaculate conception", the papal
                                                        infallibility, purgatory, limbo etc etc.

                                                        So my implied point was, as Orthodox, we do not NEED to (nor should
                                                        we) try to explain Mysteries. Even death is a "mystery", as described
                                                        by St John Damascene in one of the 8 hymns he wrote for the departed
                                                        (I have them somewhere here at hand...) And again, the judgements of
                                                        God are oftentimes inscrutable, and we are NOT advised to pry into
                                                        them. Even our most erudite Fathers knew when to stop in their
                                                        exegeses about several aspects of our spiritual life...Mysteries
                                                        remain mysteries. This is a very important aspect of Orthodox
                                                        discretion, and evidences not only humility, but also a type of
                                                        prudence and wisdom that has become lost in many "religions". The RCs
                                                        have, imo, lost this prudence.

                                                        Now as to point 2.

                                                        I was not at all trying to infer that the thread had become RC. And
                                                        espcially Fr David's and Mat Anna's last posts were quite realistic
                                                        and practical and certainly within the bounds of true Orthodoxy.

                                                        There are some things, however, that cannot be explained, and in such
                                                        cases it is always best to say as the Fathers or the Canons or the
                                                        Services do, or when pressed for an opinion try not to branch out
                                                        into making statements that at best are iffy and which the Fathers
                                                        never went so far as to make (even though some of the issues were the
                                                        same then as now in many circumstances). Sometimes, unfortunately
                                                        including myself, people make statements that sound nice, and
                                                        are "comforting" etc, but when taken to a serious theologic level can
                                                        cause all sorts of anomalies.

                                                        For example:

                                                        When people try to describe the aspect of Holy Communion, and get
                                                        just a little too "physical" in the description.

                                                        Fortunately, we Orthodox have, as far as I can tell (though maybe I
                                                        live in another century) avoided the
                                                        consubstantiation/transubstantiation muddle of the Prots. When people
                                                        ask me "What do the Orthodox believe" I just say what the Church
                                                        Services say. The bread and wine as antitypes are "changed" into the
                                                        Body and Blood of the Saviour. "How are they changed?" By the Holy
                                                        Spirit. And I stop there, though sometimes adding that it is a
                                                        reality, not just a "memorial pretending" (this annoys most Prots heh
                                                        heh)

                                                        I have thought long and intensively also about the action and uniting
                                                        of the Holy Communion with ourselves, spiritually and bodily. A very
                                                        difficult subject that requires, imo, extreme circumspection. Even as
                                                        I write, I fear.

                                                        So instead of asserting anything definate, besides what St John D
                                                        asserts (eg that the Holy Communion does not pass into the draught,
                                                        like normal food), hoping that the more spiritual and authouritative
                                                        Fathers, Mothers and Believers on this list will provide a truer
                                                        insight than I can evince, let me just tell a story. Which starts out
                                                        somewhat funny, but ends up in a quandary.

                                                        At the Monastery in England, we kept a bunch of Bantam hens and a
                                                        rooster. He was just a little thing, and took good care of his harem
                                                        (ahem!), and though he had a healthy fear of the Monks (there was a
                                                        convenient Butcher's shop in the Village that we reminded him about
                                                        as often as necessary) he notwithstanding had a Well-developed HATRED
                                                        for human women.

                                                        He could spy 'em out from 50 yards distant, and on doing so would
                                                        make a mad dash at a gallop (or whatever it is that chickens do) for
                                                        the opportunity to dig his spurs into the poor ladies. Yes, he was a
                                                        leg man.

                                                        After a while, this marvellous (whoops, I mean AWFUL) creature had
                                                        the gals so terrorised that when they were on the way out of after-
                                                        liturgy Trapeza, they would stand on the door stoop and CAREFULLY
                                                        ascertain that Mr Charming was nowhere in sight before hastening with
                                                        trepidation to the safety of their cars.

                                                        Well, one day, one of our Greek dears wasn't so vigilant in her
                                                        surveillence.

                                                        Roland charges up, claws and bites at her ankles. Rips through the
                                                        nylons (a determined man indeed) and draws blood.

                                                        Horrified, Kuria looks at her leg and the blood and screams "There
                                                        goes COMMUNION!"

                                                        What was one to say? I didn't have a clue.

                                                        I still don't. So it was probably best to say nothing.

                                                        Such is where it becomes difficult to get too exact in trying
                                                        to "analyse" the Mysteries. Sometimes less IS more. Simple vs
                                                        complex. Safer at least, not uncommital, for we should say boldly
                                                        what our Faith professes, but at times there are circumstances that
                                                        require reticence.

                                                        My sincere regrets to hear of your friends' having lost little ones.
                                                        My sister in law and brother lost a child to SIDS several years ago,
                                                        and I do have some cognizence of the suffering and (largely imagined)
                                                        guilt that follows closely on it's heels. However, I am careful not
                                                        to say things to them that though sounding "comforting" in fact are
                                                        not strictly theologically true, because before long
                                                        those "comforting" statements would be shown as fraudulent. It would
                                                        be almost like telling a dying man that he would live another 20
                                                        years, when tomorrow is the real day of reckoning for him.

                                                        OK I have rambled enough.

                                                        Time to do Matins and then, ta da, Saturday Housecleaning! Wish my
                                                        Cat would share in the dishwashing and vacuuming.

                                                        May all good be to you and yours from the SOURCE (yes,I mean God
                                                        Himself) of everything good.

                                                        Sorry again for the minor mixup.

                                                        In Christ,
                                                        John, monk













                                                        >
                                                        > My husband and I are trying to decided what you mean...what I meant
                                                        was 1;
                                                        > What is Roman vs Orthodox?
                                                        > 2. What is complex vs simple in the tread you were responing
                                                        to. I think
                                                        > the responses have been very Orthodox so????? I respond in public
                                                        because
                                                        > you did. The subject is a difficult one for many women...and some
                                                        of my
                                                        > firends who have recently lost their little ones. Nothing
                                                        personell was
                                                        > meant.
                                                        >
                                                        > Theodora in the mountains
                                                      • Sandra Thompson
                                                        I am catching up on my e-mail and would like to respond to this thread. ... miscarriage are extremely beneficial to that woman. No matter what she may or may
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Dec 1, 2000
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                                                          I am catching up on my e-mail and would like to respond to this thread.

                                                          > In my experience, the pentitial prayers said over a woman who has had a
                                                          miscarriage are extremely beneficial to that woman. No matter what she may
                                                          or may not have done, my experience has been that when a woman miscarries,
                                                          she secretly harbors the question of her own responsibility for the death
                                                          of the child.
                                                          I agree as having had that experience.

                                                          Before this experience, we knew the baby might not survive his birth.
                                                          Father told my husband to be ready to baptise in case the need arose. The
                                                          baby did come six weeks early at home . After he baptised him, we
                                                          discovered that he was stillborn. He must have during the birthing. Since
                                                          the soul lingers in the body a while, I wonder if the baptism counts.
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