- Dear Deacon Mark and Elizabeth It is quite interesting when ealier this year, a very unjust and dishonourable attack was repeatedly being made upon the memoryMessage 1 of 2 , Nov 8, 2000View SourceDear Deacon Mark and Elizabeth
It is quite interesting
when ealier this year,
a very unjust and dishonourable
attack was repeatedly being
made upon the memory
of the Tsarmartyr Nikolaj II.
by one of the none-orthodox
members on this "orthodox" list,
Apart from me,
only 3 out of, at that time 386
members came to the defense
of the Tsarmartyr!
So much for the love of
the New Martyrs!?!
It is also interesting that
ecumenism in ROCOR is
tolerated without any objections?
Marching with both this and that
"church" for all kinds of "cases".
Keeping pagan names as well
as keeping "dialogue" with protestants
in various lutheran newspapers
is also accepted.
How come that one ecumenism
is trampling on the Creed, but
not the other?
Maybe we should remove the
big piece of wood from
our own eyes before we try
to correct our brothers?
PS - I love you too my friend,
and I am in ROCOR like you.
Please pray for me this dispute makes
me go through much temptation.
"Forgiveness is better than revenge. "
St. Tikhon of Zadonsk
+ + +
----- Original Message -----
From: Deacon Mark Smith <dcnmark@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: [orthodox-synod] We love you Nikolaj
> Nikolaj wrote:
> >Dear Elizabeth
> >You - quite - conveniently
> >"forgot" to comment on the first
> >half of my letter...
> >But - Elizabeth
> >do you really think that ROC/MP
> >is equal to "Satanists, Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus, Wiccans and 23,000
> >Protestant denominations." ?
> That is not what Elizabeth said, she said "God allows", the existance of all these.
> >Because if so, you certainly practice an
> >interesting variation of love for your much-suffering Christian brothers
> >and sisters in Russia, who whatever might be said of them,
> >share the same creed as you have, and pray to the same saints.
> >Condemning and putting ca 40% (Orthodox baptized)of the Russian people
> >in the same league as the above quoted is a rather
> >harsh judgement to make for a Christian.
> We separate the sin from the sinner and point out that the path of heresy and schism separates one from God and leads to perdition. If we hated the sinner, schismatic and heretic we would find it much easier to simply encourage them on that path, but instead, in love does the Holy Church try to warn the sinner, schismatic and heretic of the error and destruction of their path.
> As for the creed; the heresy of Ecumenism, fervently followed by the MP, tramples on the doctrine of "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".
> Concerning praying to the same saints; we hope that indeed they not only pray to them, but also follow their example, especially the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of the Russian Land who separated themselves from Sergianism and every heresy, which is why they were martyred, lost their earthly life and are now glorified in the Kingdom of Heaven.
> >Likewise judging the same 40% of the Russian people
> >for the sins of the murderous soviet regime is also a
> >rather hasty conclusion.
> >You know (it is hoped) that we shall be judged
> >by the same means that we judge others.
> I do not see where she is judging, but simply pointing out that the New martyrs died for the truth, it was clear, black and white, to them; submit themselves to Sergius and the Bolsheviks gaining earthly life, glory, and freedom, but a tortured conscience and eternal fire, or, remain with the True Church and canonical hierarchs but lose this fleeting earthly life and gain eternal life and glory in the Heavens.
> >The sins of the soviet regime and the sins of the
> >MP/ROC hierachs is on their heads.
> >Not ours. In our zeal for preserving our Faith untainted
> >let us not drop to the level of "bible-bashing".
> Saint Ignatius of Antioch tells us that where the bishop is there are the people.
> Please remember that it is not only the liar that will be condemned, but also those who believe the lie. (They do not have the love of the truth to seek out the truth.) Though perhaps it will not be the same for them, still eternal condemnation is eternal condemnation. So please, for the salvation of their souls, encourage everyone in the MP to separate themselves from the liars, heresiarchs and murderers, perhaps one day they will change, but do not gamble your eternal life on it.
> >The MP/ROC has canonized ca. 850 New Martyrs and
> >confessors murdered under the Communist Yoke.
> True it is a nice gesture, but an uncanonical body has no power or right to do any such thing. From Sergius on our bishops called illegal the election of every "patriarch" in Moskow.
> >So you see, the memory of these martyrs are not totally forgotten
> >in Russia. Nor will they be in the future.
> >Now as well as in the future people can venerate these martyrs openly.
> Again and again, we hope they do more than venerate them, or rather truly venerate them by following their example and seperating themselves from all heresies and encouraging others around them to also follow the true path of the New Martyrs and Confessors.
> >We must not give up hoping and praying for Russia - our Spiritual >motherland!
> >This is essential for ROCOR.
> We pray in all our petitions for the suffering Russian land and after the litany after the gospel reading in the Divine Liturgy our bishops and priests pray the most beautiful prayer (written by the Blessed Metropolitan Antony of Kiev) for the "salvation of Russia" which includes these words: "But unto those who have departed from Thee and seek Thee not, be Thou manifest, that not one of them perish, but that all of them be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth;"
> It is entirely up to their free will whether they want to be numbered with those who have seperated themselves from the Church or with the New Martyrs and Confessors.
> It is not we who seperate or condemn or judge, it is the heresy one professes that seperates him from God. It is the Holy Fathers of the 7 Ecumenical (Universal) Councils that declared anathema against those who say that there is more than one Holy Church, (Ecumenism), precisely in their desire to protect their flock and out of love for the heretics themselves, after this it is always up to them to repent.
> We do not hate them or the authorities that they submit themselves to, but out of love for them call them to flee from evil and follow the truth and the example of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors,.....the choice is up to them, are they prepared to follow them?
> With sincere love,
> Deacon Mark Smith
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
- ... Absence of a response cannot be taken to prove a lack of love for the New Martyrs--or anything else for that matter. The overwhelming majority ofMessage 2 of 2 , Nov 9, 2000View Source
>Nikolaj wrote:Absence of a response cannot be taken to prove a lack of love for the New
>It is quite interesting
>when ealier this year,
>a very unjust and dishonourable
>attack was repeatedly being
>made upon the memory
>of the Tsarmartyr Nikolaj II.
>by one of the none-orthodox
>members on this "orthodox" list,
>Apart from me,
>only 3 out of, at that time 386
>members came to the defense
>of the Tsarmartyr!
>So much for the love of
>the New Martyrs!?!
Martyrs--or anything else for that matter. The overwhelming majority of
listmembers on all of the Orthodox lists never post anything at all.
>It is also interesting thatThe following examples can hardly be called ecumenism.
>ecumenism in ROCOR is
>tolerated without any objections?
>Marching with both this and thatParticipation in a demonstration for a worthy cause is not forbidden to
>"church" for all kinds of "cases".
Orthodox Christians--even if there are members of other faiths there. Many
ROCOR clergy participated in demonstrations against the bombing of
Yugoslavia, although there were pacifists from a variety of other religious
communities there. I remember participating in demonstrations against the
blasphemous films "The Life of Brian" together with many Orthodox Rabbis
and other Jews, and "The Last Temptation" together with many Catholic and
Protestant clergy and laity. Also, many Orthodox Christians and clergy
participate in "Right to Life" marches together with people of various
faiths. This is not ecumenism. It is standing up for what you believe in.
>Keeping pagan namesWhat is this obsession with "pagan names"? If the Orthodox Church did not
sanctify pagan names over the centuries, our Catalog of Saint's Names would
have only a few hundred names, rather than some 20,000. Where did all of
these Saints' names come from anyway? From pagan names, of course.
If you pay attention, you may note that the Russian Orthodox Church
commemorates St. Vladimir, St. Olga, Sts. Boris and Gleb, etc. What are
these names but their pagan names? St. Vladimir was named Vasilli in
Baptism, St. Olga was baptized Helen, Sts. Boris and Gleb were baptized
Roman and David, although you hardly ever hear them called that way.
So the Church can sanctify pagan names, as well. But what does this have to
do with ecumenism?
>as wellI have no idea what you are talking about. Periodically, some of our clergy
>as keeping "dialogue" with protestants
>in various lutheran newspapers
>is also accepted.
and laymen may publish articles on Orthodoxy in non-Orthodox publications.
This is ecumenism?
>How come that one ecumenismBecause there are at least ten different types of "ecumenism"--and most of
>is trampling on the Creed, but
>not the other?
them, such as cooperation with the non-Orthodox in charitable or relief
work, or standing together with them to redress a governmental injustice or
a crime against humanity such as abortion, are completely acceptable. It is
only when the faith itself is compromised, such as by proclaiming that the
Church is not One (branch-theory ecumenism) that is condemned.
Orthodoxy follows the "prime directive" of Christ-- "Go out and teach all
nations." It is by definition non-isolationist. Instead, we are all called
to go out and try to bring those outside of the Church "to the knowledge of
the truth." This cannot be done if we eschew all contact with non-Orthodox
>Maybe we should remove theGood idea. Perhaps you could think about that before making accusations
>big piece of wood from
>our own eyes before we try
>to correct our brothers?
against the ROCOR, saying that it is somehow "soft" on ecumenism.
With love in Christ,
Prot. Alexander Lebedeff