Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [orthodox-synod] The Church and Birth Control ??

Expand Messages
  • rjmanz
    Dear Theodora, If I may speak from my medical background as a doctor for a second, the current types of birth control methods can be divided into those which
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 4, 2000
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Theodora,

      If I may speak from my medical background as a doctor for a second, the
      current types of birth control methods can be divided into those which prevent
      conception and those which interupt the further development of the conception.
      the former would be for example, the birth control pill which suppresses
      ovulation (no such version for men to suppress sperm production), condoms and
      the diaphram, cervical cap and spermicide gels.
      the later case would be IUDs which disturb the implantation of a
      conception, the new RU-28 drug, and mechanical abortions.
      Vasectomies and tubal ligations are also means to prevent conception.

      so by these examples there are obviously some things that will place the
      "burden" on the men, but you are correct in pointing out that modern medical
      science has focused more on the female reproductive system.

      We are taking human life by disrupting a conception at any time of its
      life, but is there anything against the Orthodox Christian life by preventing
      conception with the above methods?

      Nectarios Manzanero
      --
      Sincerely, An iPhone User
    • Fr. Stephen Fraser
      Has the pill been renamed for the gullible American public? In Christ, Fr. Stephen ... From: rjmanz To:
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 4, 2000
      • 0 Attachment
        Has the pill been renamed for the gullible
        American public?

        In Christ,
        Fr. Stephen

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: rjmanz <smartcats@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2000 9:27 PM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Church and Birth Control ??


        > Dear Theodora,
        >
        > If I may speak from my medical background as a doctor for a second, the
        > current types of birth control methods can be divided into those which prevent
        > conception and those which interupt the further development of the conception.
        > the former would be for example, the birth control pill which suppresses
        > ovulation (no such version for men to suppress sperm production), condoms and
        > the diaphram, cervical cap and spermicide gels.
        > the later case would be IUDs which disturb the implantation of a
        > conception, the new RU-28 drug, and mechanical abortions.
        > Vasectomies and tubal ligations are also means to prevent conception.
        >
        > so by these examples there are obviously some things that will place the
        > "burden" on the men, but you are correct in pointing out that modern medical
        > science has focused more on the female reproductive system.
        >
        > We are taking human life by disrupting a conception at any time of its
        > life, but is there anything against the Orthodox Christian life by preventing
        > conception with the above methods?
        >
        > Nectarios Manzanero
        > --
        > Sincerely, An iPhone User
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • rjmanz
        Dear Fr. Stephen, Which pill are you referring to? The morning after abortion pill(RU-28), or the ovulation suppressing birth control pill which started
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 5, 2000
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Fr. Stephen,

          Which pill are you referring to? The "morning after" abortion pill(RU-28),
          or the ovulation suppressing "birth control" pill which started "women's
          Liberation" in the 1960's.

          Nectarios

          --
          Sincerely, An iPhone User
        • Fr. Stephen Fraser
          Dear Nectarios, it is the new pill that has just been imported from, I think, Europe. It is supposed to conveniently abort a fertilized egg and is used under
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 5, 2000
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Nectarios,

            it is the new pill that has just been imported from, I think,
            Europe. It is supposed to conveniently abort a fertilized egg
            and is used under the direction of a physician, utilizing a specific
            protocol, over a period if several days. It is the "morning after"
            abortion pill.

            It has been referred to in the media and in medical literature
            as the "abortion pill 'RU-486.'" It has caused a controversy
            partly because of its name: "Are you for 86?" (86: to dispatch
            someone as in: "Let's 86 him.") It reminds me of the joke the French
            played on the world (America?) by naming its bottled water
            "Evian" (naive).

            Now, this godless society does not have to worry about "partial
            birth" or surgical abortions any longer. How convenient. We can
            now terminate a life before we become too emotionally involved.

            It, of course, goes without saying, that this pill is never to be used
            by Orthodox Christians neither as a method of birth control,
            because of its ability to end a human life, nor as a means of effecting
            an abortion. This pill is included in the list which also includes
            sterilization (tubal ligation for women, and vasectomy for men).
            Nothing must be done to terminate a human life once conceived.
            Sterilization is not acceptable because it mutilates the body given
            by God for our use.

            In Christ,
            Fr. Stephen


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rjmanz <smartcats@...>
            To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 5:33 AM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] The Church and Birth Control ??


            > Dear Fr. Stephen,
            >
            > Which pill are you referring to? The "morning after" abortion pill(RU-28),
            > or the ovulation suppressing "birth control" pill which started "women's
            > Liberation" in the 1960's.
            >
            > Nectarios
            >
            > --
            > Sincerely, An iPhone User
            >
            > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • rjmanz
            Dear Fr. Stephen andList, Yikes, my mistake...yes, it is RU-486, not to be confused with old computer processors. I don t know where I got rU-28...perhaps it
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 5, 2000
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Fr. Stephen andList,

              Yikes, my mistake...yes, it is RU-486, not to be confused with old computer
              processors. I don't know where I got rU-28...perhaps it is pre-senile dementia.
              Thanks for the correction.
              One of my recent patients is an autistic boy who calculates math in
              factors of 26(...got this from the letters in the alphabet), instead of a base
              of 10. I guess I got stuck on 28.

              Nectarios
              --
              Sincerely, An iPhone User
            • David Moser
              Theodora, This topic of birth control is one that is difficult to discuss in general terms as there can be so many different circumstances. It is clearly
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 5, 2000
              • 0 Attachment
                Theodora,

                This topic of birth control is one that is difficult to discuss in "general"
                terms as there can be so many different circumstances. It is clearly outside
                Orthodox belief and practice to do anything that would purposefully kill or
                disrupt the development of a child once conceived. Therefore the only methods
                of birth control that could be considered by Orthodox Christians are those which
                prevent conception from occurring. Dr Manzanero has given a comprehensive list
                of those two classes of contraceptives. Although I am not a "medical" person, I
                do, as a result of my (secular) occupation and training have some medical
                knowledge. Based on that knowledge, I would also suggest that an Orthodox
                Christian should not use the so called "birth control pill which suppresses
                ovulation" as it does this by manipulating hormone levels in the body and at one
                point in the cycle, causing the regular menstrual flow regardless of any other
                condition, as a part of that manipulation. While the hormone levels also
                "suppress" ovulation, there is the chance that ovulation does occur and that the
                egg could be fertilized by a sperm but then heedlessly expunged by the forced
                menstruation brought on by the regimen of "birth control pills". This chance,
                however slight, is too much of a chance in my opinion - it is something like
                playing "Russian roulette but with a child's life rather than your own. Chances
                are the "chamber" is empty, but every once in a while, it's loaded. There are
                plenty of other methods of birth control to use which do not carry this "chance"
                of unintended and unheeded abortion. I would not and do not give any kind of a
                blessing for any of my spiritual children to use this method of contraception.
                (As I say, my medical knowledge is limited and I am willing to be corrected -
                but I am looking for a 100% or better guarantee).

                Now to the question of the onus being upon the woman. In general it is best not
                to use contraceptive methods at all, but rather to trust the will and providence
                of God in the giving of children. That is the default baseline condition.
                There are circumstances in which birth control might be used, however, that is
                where the personal relationship between pastor/spiritual father and the married
                couple come into play. The decision whether to use birth control or not rests
                with these people (with advice from appropriate others, such as medical
                professionals). The decision over what method of contraception to use must be
                made by the couple themselves - together - within the limits given them by their
                spiritual father (and possibly medical caregiver). Hence the onus is NOT on the
                woman only (or the man only) but on both the husband and wife, together. They
                must take the responsibility together for this decision. The purpose and goal
                of marriage is the mutual working out of the salvation of the family. This
                decision about contraception must be tied to the spiritual benefit and necessity
                in some way. Therefore they must work together in all things (not only in the
                matter of the conception of children) not as independent agents. The husband
                must love the wife as Christ loves the Church and the wife must obey the husband
                as the Church obeys Christ. If I, as a husband, act only out of regard for my
                own needs, desires, convenience, etc then I am not fulfilling the obligation to
                love my wife. If my wife should act only out of regard for her own wants,
                needs, desires, convenience, etc without regard for the instruction of her
                husband then she fails to fulfill the obligation of obedience.

                One final comment regarding surgical interventions (tubal ligation, vasectomy,
                hysterectomy, etc). These are only considered when they are medically necessary
                for legitimate health reasons - not as a convenient means of contraception. As
                Fr Stephen stated, we should refrain from mutilating our bodies (as an aside,
                this same reasoning applies to tattoos and various body piercings).

                I think that I have expressed myself poorly, but this is the best I can do at
                the moment. I hope that I have been able to shed some little light on your
                question.

                Pr. David Moser


                Priest David Moser +++ moserd@...
                St Seraphim of Sarov Orthodox Church (ROCOR)

                "Those who are not satisfied with what they have to sustain life but who seek
                for more, make themselves the slaves of passions" - St Anthony the Great
              • Theodora
                snip The purpose and goal ... This ... necessity ... the ... husband ... husband ... for my ... obligation to ... her ... snip Bless Father and listmembers who
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 6, 2000
                • 0 Attachment
                  snip
                  The purpose and goal
                  > of marriage is the mutual working out of the salvation of the family.
                  This
                  > decision about contraception must be tied to the spiritual benefit and
                  necessity
                  > in some way. Therefore they must work together in all things (not only in
                  the
                  > matter of the conception of children) not as independent agents. The
                  husband
                  > must love the wife as Christ loves the Church and the wife must obey the
                  husband
                  > as the Church obeys Christ. If I, as a husband, act only out of regard
                  for my
                  > own needs, desires, convenience, etc then I am not fulfilling the
                  obligation to
                  > love my wife. If my wife should act only out of regard for her own wants,
                  > needs, desires, convenience, etc without regard for the instruction of
                  her
                  > husband then she fails to fulfill the obligation of obedience.

                  snip

                  Bless Father and listmembers who have so graciiously answered my post. The
                  above statement and many I have recieved privately shows that the Orthodox
                  Church does , indeed, differ greatly from what I have just learned of other
                  churchs (faiths=those being where my friends attend). While other set a
                  narrow and sometimes discrimatory line our Faith is so loving and just that
                  it stands out markly. In times like we live in to day I wish all our young
                  people and members could see and understand the great gift they have. Thank
                  you all. Please pray for my friend and all who, in this world, must seek
                  answeres to these questions.

                  snip

                  >
                  > One final comment regarding surgical interventions (tubal ligation,
                  vasectomy,
                  > hysterectomy, etc). These are only considered when they are medically
                  necessary
                  > for legitimate health reasons - not as a convenient means of
                  contraception. As
                  > Fr Stephen stated, we should refrain from mutilating our bodies (as an
                  aside,
                  > this same reasoning applies to tattoos and various body piercings).

                  snip

                  Ah...another can of worms appears for the younger generation....and the
                  older??? Does this include pierce ears?????? :-) Where does "body mutilati
                  on begin and end??? Anyone who takes their 2-3 year old out for piece ears
                  is mutilating that child???? Just a thought and not meant to start another
                  thread but when working with young people one thought leads to another.
                  They are very quick!!!! :-)


                  snip


                  > I think that I have expressed myself poorly, but this is the best I can do
                  at
                  > the moment. I hope that I have been able to shed some little light on
                  your
                  > question.

                  snip

                  Again thank you and you did not express yourself poorly though I may have
                  typed poorly...forgive as my hands are swelled today.

                  Theodora in the mountains
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.