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RE:Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor

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  • Michael Nikitin
    Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say that he is
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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      Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you
      and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say
      that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of someone who disagrees with
      Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than anyone in ROCOR.


      Daniel Lieuwen wrote:

      Reader Constantine:

      Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go join your chosen group of
      the "last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians"
      if you want to, but quit pretending that your tirades against clergymen
      who have been in ROCOR far longer than yourself represent anything other
      than a small group of schismatic-wannabees. If you cannot be respectful to
      those whose status in the church is higher than yourselves, then if you
      "cannot learn to speak, learn to keep silence" (to paraphrase St. Jerome's
      _Against Helvidius_).

      Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am disgusted that these
      words come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist
      Anti-religious Organization with the designation "church" and its head,
      Agent Drozdov, with the title "Patriarch."


      I am disgusted by your attack on Fr. John.

      As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us, "It is later than we
      think."


      I believe Fr. Seraphim would be deeply distressed to see you using him to
      justify the poison that you spew on these lists. He was firm, but he did
      not spit venom against those he disagreed with. Rather, he encouraged
      people
      to choose a better path and disagreed with great civility. His arguments
      with clergymen like Fr. Alexander Schmemann in other jurisdictions show
      a restraint that you do not apply to _anyone_ with whom you disagree,
      whatever
      their ecclesiastical rank and whatever jurisdiction. His treatment of
      Buddhism is kinder than your treatment of your Orthodox opponants in your
      same jurisdiction. This is the mark of a sectarian, not of an Orthodox
      traditionalist.

      I apologize for not remonstrating with you privately as was my Christian
      duty previously. Having failed in that duty and seen to what levels you
      have sunk in public, I am forced to take the dispute to the next level.

      Reader Daniel Lieuwen
      (also in ROCOR and disgusted by the reputation you give it)


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    • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
      Constantine Wright writes: The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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        Constantine Wright writes:

        The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit
        decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy thought otherwise.

        He fails to mention that the Sobor of Bishops of the ROCOR also suspended
        and then deposed Valentin of Suzdal, after he had *twice* broken his solemn
        oath of fealty to the ROCOR that had consecrated him.

        Constantine also wrote:

        >I am disgusted that these words
        come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist Anti-religious
        Organization with the designation "church" and its head, Agent Drozdov, with
        the title "Patriarch."


        Please answer this simple question, Constantine: Are you equally disgusted
        at Metropolitan Anastassy and all of the Bishops of the ROCOR Sobor in
        Munich, which in its official Epistle not only called the Head of the
        Moscow Patriarchate, Alexei I, "Patriarch," but also called him the "Head
        of the Russian Church," thus calling the Moscow Patriarchate "The Russian
        Church"?


        Here are the exact words:

        "The Higher Church Administration in Russia in the person of the current
        Head of the Russian Church Patriarch Alexey ["v litse nyneshniago Glavy
        Russkoi Tserkvi Patriarkha Aleksiia"] has more than once already addressed
        the bishops abroad with an exhortation to enter into canonical submission
        to the Patriarchate, but, listening to the directions of our pastoral
        conscience, we do not find it morally possible to acquiesce to these
        appeals as long as the Higher Church Administration in Russia is found in
        an unnatural union with the atheistic power and as long as the whole
        Russian Church is deprived of true freedom, which is inherent in it by its
        Divine nature." (Signed by Metropolitan Anastassy and all the Bishops of
        the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and dated April 27/May 10 1946).

        Please explain to me, Constantine, how can you criticize someone for using
        exactly the same terminology regarding the Moscow Patriarchate and its Head
        that this official statement of the Sobor of Bishops of the Russian
        Orthodox Church Outside of Russia used?

        With love in Christ,

        Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      • Rev. John R. Shaw
        ... This thread seems to be widely cross-posted. As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided*
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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          On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Michael Nikitin wrote:

          > Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you
          > and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say
          > that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of someone who disagrees with
          > Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than anyone in ROCOR.
          >
          This "thread" seems to be widely cross-posted.

          As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
          claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
          depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
          his position.
          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Michael Nikitin
          How about the issue of the M.P.? Fr.John Shaw wrote: As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the claims of M. Nikitin, in fact
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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            How about the issue of the M.P.?


            Fr.John Shaw wrote:

            As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
            claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
            depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
            his position.
            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw




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          • Joseph Digrande
            The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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              The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine
              but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about
              the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
              There have been attacks on Vladimir Moss and Father
              Stephen of Denver on the Indiana list but the Synod
              through the priests who have responded have not been
              able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of Moss
              (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this list
              is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
              positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the Synod
              has swallowed them hook, line and sinker. Neither the
              Synod nor Met. Cyprian is infallible. The beauty of
              Orthodoxy is that one can question policies and
              ecclesial positions without being silenced, threatened
              or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every right
              to question these policies and remain in the Synod. He
              has a right to question them publically and privately.
              In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
              responsibility that no one should shirk. Ecumenism and
              Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and discussed
              in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
              Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is the
              Internet and Reader Constantine has the responsibility
              to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for it.
              Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on this
              list too and they have been given a lot of room to
              make those attacks.
              Joseph Digrande
              --- Michael Nikitin <mikeniki@...> wrote:
              > Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr.
              > Vitaly. Why is it that you
              > and other priests on this list do not defend Metr.
              > Vitaly when others say
              > that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of
              > someone who disagrees with
              > Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than
              > anyone in ROCOR.
              >
              >
              > Daniel Lieuwen wrote:
              >
              > Reader Constantine:
              >
              > Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go
              > join your chosen group of
              > the "last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians"
              > if you want to, but quit pretending that your
              > tirades against clergymen
              > who have been in ROCOR far longer than yourself
              > represent anything other
              > than a small group of schismatic-wannabees. If you
              > cannot be respectful to
              > those whose status in the church is higher than
              > yourselves, then if you
              > "cannot learn to speak, learn to keep silence" (to
              > paraphrase St. Jerome's
              > _Against Helvidius_).
              >
              > Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am
              > disgusted that these
              > words come from one who will, nevertheless, grace
              > the Sergianist
              > Anti-religious Organization with the designation
              > "church" and its head,
              > Agent Drozdov, with the title "Patriarch."
              >
              >
              > I am disgusted by your attack on Fr. John.
              >
              > As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us,
              > "It is later than we
              > think."
              >
              >
              > I believe Fr. Seraphim would be deeply distressed to
              > see you using him to
              > justify the poison that you spew on these lists. He
              > was firm, but he did
              > not spit venom against those he disagreed with.
              > Rather, he encouraged
              > people
              > to choose a better path and disagreed with great
              > civility. His arguments
              > with clergymen like Fr. Alexander Schmemann in other
              > jurisdictions show
              > a restraint that you do not apply to _anyone_ with
              > whom you disagree,
              > whatever
              > their ecclesiastical rank and whatever jurisdiction.
              > His treatment of
              > Buddhism is kinder than your treatment of your
              > Orthodox opponants in your
              > same jurisdiction. This is the mark of a sectarian,
              > not of an Orthodox
              > traditionalist.
              >
              > I apologize for not remonstrating with you privately
              > as was my Christian
              > duty previously. Having failed in that duty and
              > seen to what levels you
              > have sunk in public, I am forced to take the dispute
              > to the next level.
              >
              > Reader Daniel Lieuwen
              > (also in ROCOR and disgusted by the reputation you
              > give it)
              >
              >
              >
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              >


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            • rjmanz
              Dear List, I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a conservative view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically an
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                Dear List,

                I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a
                "conservative" view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically an
                immediate backlash with personal criticisms against that person, making this
                a very unsafe place to dialogue at times.
                I also agree that in most cases, not all, the points presented are not
                discussed or rebutted with facts, but instead are replied with personal
                attacks, or labels of being a schismatic, sectarian, or fanatic.
                I am very troubled about recent things, including the epistle from the
                ROAC, as well as our clergy commemorating the Jerusalem Pat., and the Serbs
                who are very ecumenical despite the slant presented on this list.
                It would be welcomed for the clergy on this List to help us out with some
                of these issues and what these things mean in light of the 1983 Anathema.
                Can this be discussed without stirring up a hornets nest?

                Nectarios Manzanero
                St John Maximovitch Mission, Austin
                --
                Sincerely, An iPhone User
              • byakimov@csc.com.au
                Dear Nectarious I have asked some of our Bishops to bring the 1983 Anathema and other issues at the coming SOBOR of Bishops and for the SOBOR to make a clear
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                  Dear Nectarious

                  I have asked some of our Bishops to bring the 1983 Anathema and other
                  issues at the coming SOBOR of Bishops and for the SOBOR to make
                  a clear statement in regard to these issues - so that we can all ROCA can
                  interpret
                  the statement only in one way and not be confused as we seem to be
                  at times.

                  Unworthy Deacon Basil from Canberra



                  "rjmanz" <smartcats@...> on 10/05/2000 02:06:54 PM

                  Please respond to orthodox-synod@egroups.com

                  To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                  cc: (bcc: Basil Yakimov/AUST/CSC)
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] RE:Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor



                  Dear List,

                  I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a
                  "conservative" view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically
                  an
                  immediate backlash with personal criticisms against that person, making
                  this
                  a very unsafe place to dialogue at times.
                  I also agree that in most cases, not all, the points presented are not
                  discussed or rebutted with facts, but instead are replied with personal
                  attacks, or labels of being a schismatic, sectarian, or fanatic.
                  I am very troubled about recent things, including the epistle from the
                  ROAC, as well as our clergy commemorating the Jerusalem Pat., and the Serbs
                  who are very ecumenical despite the slant presented on this list.
                  It would be welcomed for the clergy on this List to help us out with
                  some
                  of these issues and what these things mean in light of the 1983 Anathema.
                  Can this be discussed without stirring up a hornets nest?

                  Nectarios Manzanero
                  St John Maximovitch Mission, Austin
                  --
                  Sincerely, An iPhone User

                  Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                  ... And as I said on the other list--I do not recall the MP ever having entered the discussion. The issue was ROAC .
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                    On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Michael Nikitin wrote:

                    > How about the issue of the M.P.?
                    >
                    And as I said on the other list--I do not recall the MP ever
                    having entered the discussion. The issue was "ROAC".
                    >
                    > Fr.John Shaw wrote:
                    >
                    > As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
                    > claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
                    > depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
                    > his position.
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________________
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                    >
                    > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                    ... They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray ROCOR as having deviated from its former positions , and to portray themselves as true bearers of the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                      On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Joseph Digrande wrote:

                      > The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine
                      > but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about
                      > the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.

                      They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray ROCOR as having
                      "deviated from its former positions", and to portray themselves as true
                      bearers of the tradition of the Russian Church.

                      > There have been attacks
                      on Vladimir
                      Moss and Father > Stephen of Denver on the Indiana list but the Synod
                      > through the priests who have responded have not been
                      > able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of Moss
                      > (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this list
                      > is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
                      > positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the Synod
                      > has swallowed them hook, line and sinker.

                      In fact, Met. Cyprian of Fili is not the object of much attention
                      in ROCOR circles, aside from a few clergy that are friends with his
                      followers. His views are not talked about--except by a few that disagree
                      with them. Consequently it seems strange to me that we should hear all
                      this talk about "Cyprian of Fili having converted ROCOR to his teachings".
                      99% of our laity have never even heard of him or his Synod.

                      However, it is a clear enough fact that the Church Abroad has
                      traditionally *not* denied that the other Orthodox Churches have grace.
                      This has been amply documented by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff.

                      The beauty of > Orthodoxy is that one can question policies and
                      > ecclesial positions without being silenced, threatened
                      > or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every right
                      > to question these policies and remain in the Synod. He
                      > has a right to question them publically and privately.
                      > In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
                      > responsibility that no one should shirk.

                      It is interesting that we should hear so much about C's "right and
                      obligation to speak out", yet he makes a habit of treating the ROCOR
                      clergy who disagree with him in a disrespectful and rude manner. I do not
                      recall seeing anyone--clergy or laity--reply to Rd. Constantine in the
                      kind of tone that he himself seems to favor.

                      Be that as it may, the rest of us also have a right to speak out
                      about these matters that concern us; and if we see that misinformation
                      (let alone *dis*information!) is being propounded, day after day, on the
                      internet, and that outsiders are starting to believe and repeat it,--then
                      we too have a duty to speak up for our Church.

                      Ecumenism and
                      > Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and discussed
                      > in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
                      > Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is the
                      > Internet and Reader Constantine has the responsibility
                      > to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for it.
                      > Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on this
                      > list too and they have been given a lot of room to
                      > make those attacks.

                      "Ad hominem" means that instead of saying that Joseph DiGrande is
                      the victim of disinformation, I say that "Joseph Digrande is
                      such-and-such, therefore he is discredited adn disqualified; therefore his
                      words should be ignored and his testimony rejected".
                      Whom do you know that talks in this manner?

                      But what I agree with in Mr. DiGrande's posting is that we should
                      discuss the issues frankly--and courteously.
                      Unfortunately there are several issues (such as church schisms)
                      that have become inseparable from their central personalities; just as
                      there are some personalities (e.g. Rd. Constantine) that are hard to view
                      apart from their "positions".

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Rd. Constantine Wright
                      Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever! ... That document, and the thoughts contained in it, *are* blasphemy, and I will always continue to proclaim that. But I
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                        Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

                        >Poster: Ascension Monastery <mga@...>
                        >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and ROCOR
                        >
                        >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ... He accuses the >ROCOR of
                        >moving recklessly toward Moscow.

                        That document, and the thoughts contained in it, *are* blasphemy, and I will
                        always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the only one who sees this.
                        Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:

                        "It was with great sadness that I read the "statement" of the participants
                        in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                        the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement, I am deeply convinced,
                        is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases, containing not even one
                        healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of the myriad
                        ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox Church at the end of the
                        20th century.

                        Recently, more than ever before, the question of the unification of the MP
                        and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these statements most often
                        issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning for ecclesiastical truth
                        is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of their spiritual children.
                        ....

                        And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop Mark is trying to
                        accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there so many pastors within
                        Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the spiritual dead-end that
                        the post-Soviet church administration is ardently trying to lead them into?
                        (We know well that the price of searching for the truth is very high -
                        sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take the threats that were
                        received by the recently murdered Archpriest Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                        Petersburg just before his transfer under the omophorion of the Russian
                        Church Abroad)."


                        >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                        >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor
                        >
                        >How about the issue of the M.P.?

                        The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First Hierarchs, is clear:

                        From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                        Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka Philaret):

                        "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka Anthony's (1934): 'The
                        present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety and
                        confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and deceits. It is noteworthy
                        that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the most part
                        Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical unity, and to the
                        question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with references to
                        self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in Moscow, America, and
                        Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to believe in the unity of
                        the Church throughout the whole world and do not wish to admit it,
                        attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true Church to have relations
                        with them, and imagining that one can supposedly save ones soul even without
                        communion with Her. . . Those who have cut themselves off from Her deprive
                        themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical
                        Council teach concerning this, having recognized the renegades as being
                        totally devoid of grace,
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ according
                        to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto
                        thee as an heathen man and a publican."

                        From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:

                        The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of the true Church*.

                        What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite Constantine has often and
                        insistently stated that the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime
                        has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet church," which the
                        Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true Church, having driven the
                        genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into the concentration camps.

                        This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness Patriarch
                        Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the Communists and
                        *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has not been lifted till this
                        day and remains in force, since it can be lifted only by a similar
                        All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme ecclesiastical authority.
                        And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the head of the Church,
                        Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate Declaration, subjected
                        the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed collaboration with them.
                        And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the expression in the prayer at
                        the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under their own anathema"! For
                        in 1918 the Church anathematized all the confederates of Communism, while in
                        1927 she herself joined the camp of these collaborators and began to laud
                        the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast spoken of in the
                        Apocalypse.

                        As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius promulgated his criminal
                        Declaration, then the faithful children of the Church immediately separated
                        themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the Catacomb Church was formed.
                        And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official church for its betrayal
                        of Christ."

                        And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan Vitaly:

                        "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate have been chosen by the
                        communist state * , which has suddenly declared itself to be a democracy.
                        This senior administration of the Moscow Patriarchate is simply a government
                        institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who comprise it are no more
                        than government officials in cassocks. There are "clever" people who will
                        tell you that this entire letter is just the Metropolitan's own personal
                        opinion. But here I will reply that I have been compelled to write this
                        letter by endless protests from throughout our great Russian diaspora."

                        And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar epistle:

                        "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for all to hear, that since
                        1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his lamentable "declaration," and up
                        to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia has not had
                        and does not have any communion in prayer with the Moscow Patriachate, which
                        is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of the former Soviet regime."

                        I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR on the Sergianist
                        organization. I could close with words of my own... but I think it far
                        better to end with the admonition of our First Hierarch:

                        "And so I, as First Hierarch, am calling upon all of you to remain forever
                        faithful to our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and not to be
                        confused by those appeals which we are all hearing more and more
                        often that we should unite and concelebrate with others in the name of a
                        loudly proclaimed "brotherly love." Where is our "brotherly love" when we
                        are living, in that which is most important to us - our Divine Services -
                        according to different calendars, and living a different spiritual life? Let
                        us ponder the meaning of that most important phrase "Divine Service," which
                        is to say, "serving God" and then we will understand that in fact we are
                        serving God Himself in different ways."

                        With Christ's love,
                        Rd. Constantine

                        #############################################################
                        # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
                        # constantinew@... constans@... #
                        # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
                        #-----------------------------------------------------------#
                        # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
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                      • Joseph Digrande
                        This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                          This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in
                          our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the
                          Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                          termed a rightful Patriarch according to Father
                          Alexander (I assume that all these quotes I read are
                          accurate). It seems that Archbishop Mark held talks
                          with the MP under the assumption that he was dealing
                          with a canonical institution with a legitimate
                          hierarchy. If ROCA thinks that their hierarchy and
                          orders are valid (of the Synod and its Patriarch),
                          then ROCA disagrees with the position of Met. Joseph
                          and Peter at the time of the emergence of the catacomb
                          church. That is what is so confusing about our Church.
                          I hope the Sobor will address this as well as the 1983
                          anathema.
                          Joseph Digrande
                          --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
                          <constantinew@...> wrote:
                          > Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
                          >
                          > >Poster: Ascension Monastery
                          > <mga@...>
                          > >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and
                          > ROCOR
                          > >
                          > >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ...
                          > He accuses the >ROCOR of
                          > >moving recklessly toward Moscow.
                          >
                          > That document, and the thoughts contained in it,
                          > *are* blasphemy, and I will
                          > always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the
                          > only one who sees this.
                          > Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:
                          >
                          > "It was with great sadness that I read the
                          > "statement" of the participants
                          > in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                          > the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement,
                          > I am deeply convinced,
                          > is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases,
                          > containing not even one
                          > healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of
                          > the myriad
                          > ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox
                          > Church at the end of the
                          > 20th century.
                          >
                          > Recently, more than ever before, the question of the
                          > unification of the MP
                          > and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these
                          > statements most often
                          > issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning
                          > for ecclesiastical truth
                          > is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of
                          > their spiritual children.
                          > ....
                          >
                          > And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop
                          > Mark is trying to
                          > accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there
                          > so many pastors within
                          > Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the
                          > spiritual dead-end that
                          > the post-Soviet church administration is ardently
                          > trying to lead them into?
                          > (We know well that the price of searching for the
                          > truth is very high -
                          > sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take
                          > the threats that were
                          > received by the recently murdered Archpriest
                          > Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                          > Petersburg just before his transfer under the
                          > omophorion of the Russian
                          > Church Abroad)."
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                          > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod
                          > to ROCA Sobor
                          > >
                          > >How about the issue of the M.P.?
                          >
                          > The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First
                          > Hierarchs, is clear:
                          >
                          > From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian
                          > Orthodox Church Abroad,
                          > Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka
                          > Philaret):
                          >
                          > "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka
                          > Anthony's (1934): 'The
                          > present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety
                          > and
                          > confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and
                          > deceits. It is noteworthy
                          > that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the
                          > most part
                          > Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical
                          > unity, and to the
                          > question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with
                          > references to
                          > self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in
                          > Moscow, America, and
                          > Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to
                          > believe in the unity of
                          > the Church throughout the whole world and do not
                          > wish to admit it,
                          > attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true
                          > Church to have relations
                          > with them, and imagining that one can supposedly
                          > save ones soul even without
                          > communion with Her. . . Those who have cut
                          > themselves off from Her deprive
                          > themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers
                          > of the Sixth Ecumenical
                          > Council teach concerning this, having recognized the
                          > renegades as being
                          > totally devoid of grace,
                          >
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          > according
                          > to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the
                          > church, let him be unto
                          > thee as an heathen man and a publican."
                          >
                          > From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:
                          >
                          > The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of
                          > the true Church*.
                          >
                          > What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite
                          > Constantine has often and
                          > insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                          > the God-hating regime
                          > has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet
                          > church," which the
                          > Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true
                          > Church, having driven the
                          > genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into
                          > the concentration camps.
                          >
                          > This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His
                          > Holiness Patriarch
                          > Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor
                          > anathematized the Communists and
                          > *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has
                          > not been lifted till this
                          > day and remains in force, since it can be lifted
                          > only by a similar
                          > All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme
                          > ecclesiastical authority.
                          > And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the
                          > head of the Church,
                          > Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate
                          > Declaration, subjected
                          > the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed
                          > collaboration with them.
                          > And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the
                          > expression in the prayer at
                          > the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under
                          > their own anathema"! For
                          > in 1918 the Church anathematized all the
                          > confederates of Communism, while in
                          > 1927 she herself joined the camp of these
                          > collaborators and began to laud
                          > the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast
                          > spoken of in the
                          > Apocalypse.
                          >
                          > As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius
                          > promulgated his criminal
                          > Declaration, then the faithful children of the
                          > Church immediately separated
                          > themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the
                          > Catacomb Church was formed.
                          > And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official
                          > church for its betrayal
                          > of Christ."
                          >
                          > And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan
                          > Vitaly:
                          >
                          > "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate
                          > have been chosen by the
                          > communist state * , which has suddenly declared
                          > itself to be a democracy.
                          > This senior administration of the Moscow
                          > Patriarchate is simply a government
                          > institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who
                          > comprise it are no more
                          > than government officials in cassocks. There are
                          > "clever" people who will
                          > tell you that this entire letter is just the
                          > Metropolitan's own personal
                          > opinion. But here I will reply that I have been
                          > compelled to write this
                          > letter by endless protests from throughout our great
                          > Russian diaspora."
                          >
                          > And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar
                          > epistle:
                          >
                          > "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for
                          > all to hear, that since
                          > 1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his
                          > lamentable "declaration," and up
                          > to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church
                          > Outside Russia has not had
                          > and does not have any communion in prayer with the
                          > Moscow Patriachate, which
                          > is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of
                          > the former Soviet regime."
                          >
                          > I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR
                          > on the Sergianist
                          > organization. I could close with words of my own...
                          > but I think it far
                          > better to end with the admonition of our First
                          > Hierarch:
                          >
                          === message truncated ===


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                        • Joseph Digrande
                          This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                            This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in
                            our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the
                            Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                            termed a rightful Patriarch according to Father
                            Alexander (I assume that all these quotes I read are
                            accurate). It seems that Archbishop Mark held talks
                            with the MP under the assumption that he was dealing
                            with a canonical institution with a legitimate
                            hierarchy. If ROCA thinks that their hierarchy and
                            orders are valid (of the Synod and its Patriarch),
                            then ROCA disagrees with the position of Met. Joseph
                            and Peter at the time of the emergence of the catacomb
                            church. That is what is so confusing about our Church.
                            I hope the Sobor will address this as well as the 1983
                            anathema.
                            Joseph Digrande
                            --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
                            <constantinew@...> wrote:
                            > Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
                            >
                            > >Poster: Ascension Monastery
                            > <mga@...>
                            > >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and
                            > ROCOR
                            > >
                            > >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ...
                            > He accuses the >ROCOR of
                            > >moving recklessly toward Moscow.
                            >
                            > That document, and the thoughts contained in it,
                            > *are* blasphemy, and I will
                            > always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the
                            > only one who sees this.
                            > Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:
                            >
                            > "It was with great sadness that I read the
                            > "statement" of the participants
                            > in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                            > the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement,
                            > I am deeply convinced,
                            > is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases,
                            > containing not even one
                            > healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of
                            > the myriad
                            > ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox
                            > Church at the end of the
                            > 20th century.
                            >
                            > Recently, more than ever before, the question of the
                            > unification of the MP
                            > and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these
                            > statements most often
                            > issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning
                            > for ecclesiastical truth
                            > is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of
                            > their spiritual children.
                            > ....
                            >
                            > And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop
                            > Mark is trying to
                            > accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there
                            > so many pastors within
                            > Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the
                            > spiritual dead-end that
                            > the post-Soviet church administration is ardently
                            > trying to lead them into?
                            > (We know well that the price of searching for the
                            > truth is very high -
                            > sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take
                            > the threats that were
                            > received by the recently murdered Archpriest
                            > Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                            > Petersburg just before his transfer under the
                            > omophorion of the Russian
                            > Church Abroad)."
                            >
                            >
                            > >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                            > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod
                            > to ROCA Sobor
                            > >
                            > >How about the issue of the M.P.?
                            >
                            > The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First
                            > Hierarchs, is clear:
                            >
                            > From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian
                            > Orthodox Church Abroad,
                            > Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka
                            > Philaret):
                            >
                            > "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka
                            > Anthony's (1934): 'The
                            > present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety
                            > and
                            > confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and
                            > deceits. It is noteworthy
                            > that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the
                            > most part
                            > Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical
                            > unity, and to the
                            > question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with
                            > references to
                            > self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in
                            > Moscow, America, and
                            > Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to
                            > believe in the unity of
                            > the Church throughout the whole world and do not
                            > wish to admit it,
                            > attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true
                            > Church to have relations
                            > with them, and imagining that one can supposedly
                            > save ones soul even without
                            > communion with Her. . . Those who have cut
                            > themselves off from Her deprive
                            > themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers
                            > of the Sixth Ecumenical
                            > Council teach concerning this, having recognized the
                            > renegades as being
                            > totally devoid of grace,
                            >
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            > according
                            > to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the
                            > church, let him be unto
                            > thee as an heathen man and a publican."
                            >
                            > From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:
                            >
                            > The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of
                            > the true Church*.
                            >
                            > What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite
                            > Constantine has often and
                            > insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                            > the God-hating regime
                            > has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet
                            > church," which the
                            > Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true
                            > Church, having driven the
                            > genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into
                            > the concentration camps.
                            >
                            > This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His
                            > Holiness Patriarch
                            > Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor
                            > anathematized the Communists and
                            > *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has
                            > not been lifted till this
                            > day and remains in force, since it can be lifted
                            > only by a similar
                            > All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme
                            > ecclesiastical authority.
                            > And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the
                            > head of the Church,
                            > Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate
                            > Declaration, subjected
                            > the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed
                            > collaboration with them.
                            > And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the
                            > expression in the prayer at
                            > the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under
                            > their own anathema"! For
                            > in 1918 the Church anathematized all the
                            > confederates of Communism, while in
                            > 1927 she herself joined the camp of these
                            > collaborators and began to laud
                            > the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast
                            > spoken of in the
                            > Apocalypse.
                            >
                            > As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius
                            > promulgated his criminal
                            > Declaration, then the faithful children of the
                            > Church immediately separated
                            > themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the
                            > Catacomb Church was formed.
                            > And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official
                            > church for its betrayal
                            > of Christ."
                            >
                            > And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan
                            > Vitaly:
                            >
                            > "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate
                            > have been chosen by the
                            > communist state * , which has suddenly declared
                            > itself to be a democracy.
                            > This senior administration of the Moscow
                            > Patriarchate is simply a government
                            > institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who
                            > comprise it are no more
                            > than government officials in cassocks. There are
                            > "clever" people who will
                            > tell you that this entire letter is just the
                            > Metropolitan's own personal
                            > opinion. But here I will reply that I have been
                            > compelled to write this
                            > letter by endless protests from throughout our great
                            > Russian diaspora."
                            >
                            > And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar
                            > epistle:
                            >
                            > "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for
                            > all to hear, that since
                            > 1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his
                            > lamentable "declaration," and up
                            > to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church
                            > Outside Russia has not had
                            > and does not have any communion in prayer with the
                            > Moscow Patriachate, which
                            > is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of
                            > the former Soviet regime."
                            >
                            > I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR
                            > on the Sergianist
                            > organization. I could close with words of my own...
                            > but I think it far
                            > better to end with the admonition of our First
                            > Hierarch:
                            >
                            === message truncated ===


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                          • Joseph Digrande
                            Everyone has a right and responsibility to speak out wherever they see fit. There have been times when ROCA hierarchs has considered the MP devoid of grace.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                              Everyone has a right and responsibility to speak out
                              wherever they see fit. There have been times when ROCA
                              hierarchs has considered the MP "devoid of grace."
                              This belief exists amongst many of the clergy. Reader
                              Constantine has posted several quotes to this effect.
                              I don't see the logic of denying one thing to Met.
                              Sergius and then giving it right back to a Met.
                              Nikodim, Alexi II or even Alexi I. By doing so, it
                              breaks theological unity with the Catacomb Church,
                              whose basic thesis was that the Soviet Church has no
                              grace. This is the position that ROAC has taken over.
                              Their view of the ecumenical activity of both the
                              Serbs and Mp is also consistent with the view of the
                              Catacomb Church of 30/40 years ago.
                              Father Alexander has not answered Vladimir Moss's
                              lengthy essay in my mind (and I am not alone). It will
                              take more than just posting to this site. It requires
                              as long and as detailed and scholarly an essay,
                              something our ROCA theological journals have not taken
                              on.
                              As far as insulting language- I have heard the
                              conservatives on this list termed "fanatics- followers
                              of Panteleimon (without the slightest evidence) and
                              Father Stephen's decision considered "�diocy", when in
                              fact he moved from the Synod for reasons of
                              conscience. If every controversial subject here is met
                              by the rebuttal of �diocy or fanatics"- how will this
                              help us understand the real facts here?
                              Again the Synod is not consistent in my mind on
                              ecumenism and grace of heretics. My spiritual father
                              was certain that the MP had no grace. To prevent
                              confusion, I would pray that our Synod would speak out
                              on this issue in a clear voice.
                              Recognizing Met. Cyprian as the only Synod in Greece
                              means that the Synod accepts their theology hook, line
                              and sinker. It also negates the Anathema of 1983.
                              There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                              encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in OCA
                              and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                              parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me from
                              entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                              priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                              father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                              division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                              Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                              Joseph Digrande
                              --- "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                              > On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Joseph Digrande wrote:
                              >
                              > > The real issue in this post is not Reader
                              > Constantine
                              > > but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns
                              > about
                              > > the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
                              >
                              > They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray
                              > ROCOR as having
                              > "deviated from its former positions", and to portray
                              > themselves as true
                              > bearers of the tradition of the Russian Church.
                              >
                              > > There have been attacks
                              > on Vladimir
                              > Moss and Father > Stephen of Denver on the Indiana
                              > list but the Synod
                              > > through the priests who have responded have not
                              > been
                              > > able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of
                              > Moss
                              > > (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this
                              > list
                              > > is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
                              > > positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the
                              > Synod
                              > > has swallowed them hook, line and sinker.
                              >
                              > In fact, Met. Cyprian of Fili is not the object of
                              > much attention
                              > in ROCOR circles, aside from a few clergy that are
                              > friends with his
                              > followers. His views are not talked about--except by
                              > a few that disagree
                              > with them. Consequently it seems strange to me that
                              > we should hear all
                              > this talk about "Cyprian of Fili having converted
                              > ROCOR to his teachings".
                              > 99% of our laity have never even heard of him or his
                              > Synod.
                              >
                              > However, it is a clear enough fact that the Church
                              > Abroad has
                              > traditionally *not* denied that the other Orthodox
                              > Churches have grace.
                              > This has been amply documented by Fr. Alexander
                              > Lebedeff.
                              >
                              > The beauty of > Orthodoxy is that one can question
                              > policies and
                              > > ecclesial positions without being silenced,
                              > threatened
                              > > or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every
                              > right
                              > > to question these policies and remain in the
                              > Synod. He
                              > > has a right to question them publically and
                              > privately.
                              > > In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
                              > > responsibility that no one should shirk.
                              >
                              > It is interesting that we should hear so much about
                              > C's "right and
                              > obligation to speak out", yet he makes a habit of
                              > treating the ROCOR
                              > clergy who disagree with him in a disrespectful and
                              > rude manner. I do not
                              > recall seeing anyone--clergy or laity--reply to Rd.
                              > Constantine in the
                              > kind of tone that he himself seems to favor.
                              >
                              > Be that as it may, the rest of us also have a right
                              > to speak out
                              > about these matters that concern us; and if we see
                              > that misinformation
                              > (let alone *dis*information!) is being propounded,
                              > day after day, on the
                              > internet, and that outsiders are starting to believe
                              > and repeat it,--then
                              > we too have a duty to speak up for our Church.
                              >
                              > Ecumenism and
                              > > Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and
                              > discussed
                              > > in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
                              > > Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is
                              > the
                              > > Internet and Reader Constantine has the
                              > responsibility
                              > > to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for
                              > it.
                              > > Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on
                              > this
                              > > list too and they have been given a lot of room to
                              > > make those attacks.
                              >
                              > "Ad hominem" means that instead of saying that
                              > Joseph DiGrande is
                              > the victim of disinformation, I say that "Joseph
                              > Digrande is
                              > such-and-such, therefore he is discredited adn
                              > disqualified; therefore his
                              > words should be ignored and his testimony rejected".
                              > Whom do you know that talks in this manner?
                              >
                              > But what I agree with in Mr. DiGrande's posting is
                              > that we should
                              > discuss the issues frankly--and courteously.
                              > Unfortunately there are several issues (such as
                              > church schisms)
                              > that have become inseparable from their central
                              > personalities; just as
                              > there are some personalities (e.g. Rd. Constantine)
                              > that are hard to view
                              > apart from their "positions".
                              >
                              > In Christ
                              > Fr. John R. Shaw
                              >
                              >


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                            • elias
                              Joseph: There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard, that are allowed to commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the Julian Calendar. There are a few
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 6, 2000
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                                Joseph:

                                There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard, that are allowed to
                                commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the Julian Calendar. There are
                                a few of those around the U.S. That would entail that those Old Calendar OCA
                                priests also periodically partake of the Eucharist from New Calendar priests
                                at conventions, parish visits, etc. Is this a gray area? Or do these
                                situations even exist?

                                elias

                                There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                                encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in OCA
                                and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                                parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me from
                                entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                                priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                                father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                                division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                                Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                                Joseph Digrande
                              • Joseph Digrande
                                elias: these situations do exist. I live in Alaska and the priest who visits our village celebrates the services in the Old Calendar. He then flies back to
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 7, 2000
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                                  elias: these situations do exist. I live in Alaska and
                                  the priest who visits our village celebrates the
                                  services in the Old Calendar. He then flies back to
                                  Juneau, Sitka or Anchorage and does New Calendar
                                  services. When he comes to our village, I don't attend
                                  or even receive his blessing. I have explained to him
                                  why this is. He is conservative (for the OCA) and is
                                  opposed to ecumenism in theory. He says he agrees with
                                  "95% of what I believe. "We discuss books and he is
                                  welcome in my house- there is no hatred or bad
                                  feelings between us but like everything else nowadays-
                                  the theological situation requires contortions that
                                  would make Houdini proud.
                                  Wouldn't it be so simple for the Synod of the MP to
                                  just confess publically (their relations with the
                                  KGB), disavow ecumenism, become simple monks and I am
                                  sure all of us would forgive them gladly. Who could
                                  judge them in that situation. But they don't and so we
                                  have to continue contorting ourselves. But it is all
                                  about money and power unfortunately at the top of the
                                  MP.
                                  --- elias <h2o@...> wrote:
                                  > Joseph:
                                  >
                                  > There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard,
                                  > that are allowed to
                                  > commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the
                                  > Julian Calendar. There are
                                  > a few of those around the U.S. That would entail
                                  > that those Old Calendar OCA
                                  > priests also periodically partake of the Eucharist
                                  > from New Calendar priests
                                  > at conventions, parish visits, etc. Is this a gray
                                  > area? Or do these
                                  > situations even exist?
                                  >
                                  > elias
                                  >
                                  > There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                                  > encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in
                                  > OCA
                                  > and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                                  > parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me
                                  > from
                                  > entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                                  > priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                                  > father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                                  > division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                                  > Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                                  > Joseph Digrande
                                  >
                                  >


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