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Re: Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor

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  • Rd. Constantine Wright
    Glory to Jesus Christ Glory Forever! ... Masters Bless! ... The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit decided to consecrate
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 2, 2000
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      Glory to Jesus Christ Glory Forever!

      >EPISTLE OF THE HIERARCHICAL SYNOD OF THE RUSSIAN (ROSSIJSKOJ) >ORTHODOX
      >CHURCH TO THE HIERARCHICAL COUNCIL OF THE RUSSIAN (RUSSKOJ) >ORTHODOX
      >CHURCH ABROAD"
      >
      >...
      >
      >+ Valentine, Archbishop of Suzdal and Vladimir, President of the
      >Hierarchical Synod of the Russian [Rossijskoj] Orthodox Church
      >+ Theodore, Bishop Borisovskoye and Sanino
      >+ Seraphim, Bishop of Sukhumi and Abkhazia
      >+ Victor, Bishop of Daugavpilis and Latvia
      >+ Hilarion, Bishop of Sukhodolsk
      >+ Anthony, Bishop of Yaransk

      Masters Bless!

      >From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
      >
      >No: "ROAC" began its independant path in contempt of >canonicity.
      >Its founder was himself an ecumenist, and appears to have changed his
      >posture only when it worked to his advantage, seemingly, to do so.

      The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit
      decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy thought otherwise.

      >It was said of the HOly Roman Empire that it was "neither holy,
      >nor Roman, nor an empire". Of the above lines one might say that
      >Valentine is neither an archbishop, nor is the gathering he presides >over
      >hierarchical, and it is open to debate to what extent ROAC can >be called
      >Russian, or Orthodox, or a Church.

      Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am disgusted that these words
      come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist Anti-religious
      Organization with the designation "church" and its head, Agent Drozdov, with
      the title "Patriarch."

      >In other words, these people hope to see a split in ROCOR.

      In 1946, when the Metropolia/proto-OCA decided (again) on its folly of
      "independence" there was not a split in ROCOR... the disobedient, those who
      were fawning at the feet of the Soviet church, left ROCOR.

      In the same way, today there will *not* be a split in ROCOR. These "new
      platons" who seek unity with the Sergianists and ecumenists will follow the
      trail of the old Platon out of ROCOR, while the true children of ROCOR will
      stand firm against Sergianism and Ecumenism, preserving the Russian Orthodox
      Church Outside of Russia as a beacon of True Orthodoxy, and purifying her of
      those who would seek to subvert her and destroy her witness.

      This is the call for all true children of ROCOR, following the lead of our
      holy hierarch the sainted Metropolitan Philaret! Let us awake! Let us heed
      it! As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us, "It is later than we
      think." The time is now for us to stand and resist the seductions of the
      MKGBTs.

      Brothers and sisters, let us stand!

      With Christ's love,
      Rd. Constantine

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    • Daniel Lieuwen
      Reader Constantine: Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go join your chosen group of the last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians if you
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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        Reader Constantine:

        Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go join your chosen group of
        the "last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians"
        if you want to, but quit pretending that your tirades against clergymen
        who have been in ROCOR far longer than yourself represent anything other
        than a small group of schismatic-wannabees. If you cannot be respectful to
        those whose status in the church is higher than yourselves, then if you
        "cannot learn to speak, learn to keep silence" (to paraphrase St. Jerome's
        _Against Helvidius_).

        >Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am disgusted that these words
        >come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist Anti-religious
        >Organization with the designation "church" and its head, Agent Drozdov, with
        >the title "Patriarch."

        I am disgusted by your attack on Fr. John.

        >As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us, "It is later than we think."

        I believe Fr. Seraphim would be deeply distressed to see you using him to
        justify the poison that you spew on these lists. He was firm, but he did
        not spit venom against those he disagreed with. Rather, he encouraged people
        to choose a better path and disagreed with great civility. His arguments
        with clergymen like Fr. Alexander Schmemann in other jurisdictions show
        a restraint that you do not apply to _anyone_ with whom you disagree, whatever
        their ecclesiastical rank and whatever jurisdiction. His treatment of
        Buddhism is kinder than your treatment of your Orthodox opponants in your
        same jurisdiction. This is the mark of a sectarian, not of an Orthodox
        traditionalist.

        I apologize for not remonstrating with you privately as was my Christian
        duty previously. Having failed in that duty and seen to what levels you
        have sunk in public, I am forced to take the dispute to the next level.

        Reader Daniel Lieuwen
        (also in ROCOR and disgusted by the reputation you give it)
      • Michael Nikitin
        Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say that he is
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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          Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you
          and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say
          that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of someone who disagrees with
          Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than anyone in ROCOR.


          Daniel Lieuwen wrote:

          Reader Constantine:

          Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go join your chosen group of
          the "last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians"
          if you want to, but quit pretending that your tirades against clergymen
          who have been in ROCOR far longer than yourself represent anything other
          than a small group of schismatic-wannabees. If you cannot be respectful to
          those whose status in the church is higher than yourselves, then if you
          "cannot learn to speak, learn to keep silence" (to paraphrase St. Jerome's
          _Against Helvidius_).

          Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am disgusted that these
          words come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist
          Anti-religious Organization with the designation "church" and its head,
          Agent Drozdov, with the title "Patriarch."


          I am disgusted by your attack on Fr. John.

          As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us, "It is later than we
          think."


          I believe Fr. Seraphim would be deeply distressed to see you using him to
          justify the poison that you spew on these lists. He was firm, but he did
          not spit venom against those he disagreed with. Rather, he encouraged
          people
          to choose a better path and disagreed with great civility. His arguments
          with clergymen like Fr. Alexander Schmemann in other jurisdictions show
          a restraint that you do not apply to _anyone_ with whom you disagree,
          whatever
          their ecclesiastical rank and whatever jurisdiction. His treatment of
          Buddhism is kinder than your treatment of your Orthodox opponants in your
          same jurisdiction. This is the mark of a sectarian, not of an Orthodox
          traditionalist.

          I apologize for not remonstrating with you privately as was my Christian
          duty previously. Having failed in that duty and seen to what levels you
          have sunk in public, I am forced to take the dispute to the next level.

          Reader Daniel Lieuwen
          (also in ROCOR and disgusted by the reputation you give it)


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        • Rev. John R. Shaw
          ... Yes, they did. But do you feel that Valentine of Suzdal was acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit when he decided to treat the Synod of the Church
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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            On Mon, 2 Oct 2000, Rd. Constantine Wright wrote:
            > >
            > >+ Valentine, Archbishop of Suzdal and Vladimir, President of the
            > >Hierarchical Synod of the Russian [Rossijskoj] Orthodox Church
            > >+ Theodore, Bishop Borisovskoye and Sanino
            > >+ Seraphim, Bishop of Sukhumi and Abkhazia
            > >+ Victor, Bishop of Daugavpilis and Latvia
            > >+ Hilarion, Bishop of Sukhodolsk
            > >+ Anthony, Bishop of Yaransk
            >
            > Masters Bless!
            >
            > >From: "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
            > >
            > >No: "ROAC" began its independant path in contempt of >canonicity.
            > >Its founder was himself an ecumenist, and appears to have changed his
            > >posture only when it worked to his advantage, seemingly, to do so.
            >
            > The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit
            > decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy thought otherwise.
            >
            Yes, they did. But do you feel that Valentine of Suzdal was acting under
            the guidance of the Holy Spirit when he decided to treat the Synod of the
            Church Abroad, once he had been consecrated, with contempt--and to
            trample its edict that suspended him? It was for disobedience, inclusing
            consecrating bishops without the consent of the Church ABroad, that he
            was finally deposed.
            >
            > Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am disgusted that these words
            > come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist Anti-religious
            > Organization with the designation "church" and its head, Agent Drozdov, with
            > the title "Patriarch."
            >
            I feel confident that not one of our hierarchs would disagree with what I
            wrote above.
            >
            > In 1946, when the Metropolia/proto-OCA decided (again) on its folly of
            > "independence" there was not a split in ROCOR... the disobedient, those who
            > were fawning at the feet of the Soviet church, left ROCOR.
            >
            No, but there was certainly a split when Valentine of Suzdal
            created his own "church".
            IN Christ
            Fr. JOhn R. Shaw
          • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
            Constantine Wright writes: The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 3, 2000
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              Constantine Wright writes:

              The Sobor of Bishops of ROCOR, which under the guidance of the Holy Spirit
              decided to consecrate Vladyka Valentin to the episcopacy thought otherwise.

              He fails to mention that the Sobor of Bishops of the ROCOR also suspended
              and then deposed Valentin of Suzdal, after he had *twice* broken his solemn
              oath of fealty to the ROCOR that had consecrated him.

              Constantine also wrote:

              >I am disgusted that these words
              come from one who will, nevertheless, grace the Sergianist Anti-religious
              Organization with the designation "church" and its head, Agent Drozdov, with
              the title "Patriarch."


              Please answer this simple question, Constantine: Are you equally disgusted
              at Metropolitan Anastassy and all of the Bishops of the ROCOR Sobor in
              Munich, which in its official Epistle not only called the Head of the
              Moscow Patriarchate, Alexei I, "Patriarch," but also called him the "Head
              of the Russian Church," thus calling the Moscow Patriarchate "The Russian
              Church"?


              Here are the exact words:

              "The Higher Church Administration in Russia in the person of the current
              Head of the Russian Church Patriarch Alexey ["v litse nyneshniago Glavy
              Russkoi Tserkvi Patriarkha Aleksiia"] has more than once already addressed
              the bishops abroad with an exhortation to enter into canonical submission
              to the Patriarchate, but, listening to the directions of our pastoral
              conscience, we do not find it morally possible to acquiesce to these
              appeals as long as the Higher Church Administration in Russia is found in
              an unnatural union with the atheistic power and as long as the whole
              Russian Church is deprived of true freedom, which is inherent in it by its
              Divine nature." (Signed by Metropolitan Anastassy and all the Bishops of
              the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia and dated April 27/May 10 1946).

              Please explain to me, Constantine, how can you criticize someone for using
              exactly the same terminology regarding the Moscow Patriarchate and its Head
              that this official statement of the Sobor of Bishops of the Russian
              Orthodox Church Outside of Russia used?

              With love in Christ,

              Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
            • Rev. John R. Shaw
              ... This thread seems to be widely cross-posted. As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided*
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                On Tue, 3 Oct 2000, Michael Nikitin wrote:

                > Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr. Vitaly. Why is it that you
                > and other priests on this list do not defend Metr. Vitaly when others say
                > that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of someone who disagrees with
                > Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than anyone in ROCOR.
                >
                This "thread" seems to be widely cross-posted.

                As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
                claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
                depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
                his position.
                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Michael Nikitin
                How about the issue of the M.P.? Fr.John Shaw wrote: As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the claims of M. Nikitin, in fact
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                  How about the issue of the M.P.?


                  Fr.John Shaw wrote:

                  As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
                  claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
                  depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
                  his position.
                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw




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                • Joseph Digrande
                  The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                    The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine
                    but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about
                    the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
                    There have been attacks on Vladimir Moss and Father
                    Stephen of Denver on the Indiana list but the Synod
                    through the priests who have responded have not been
                    able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of Moss
                    (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this list
                    is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
                    positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the Synod
                    has swallowed them hook, line and sinker. Neither the
                    Synod nor Met. Cyprian is infallible. The beauty of
                    Orthodoxy is that one can question policies and
                    ecclesial positions without being silenced, threatened
                    or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every right
                    to question these policies and remain in the Synod. He
                    has a right to question them publically and privately.
                    In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
                    responsibility that no one should shirk. Ecumenism and
                    Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and discussed
                    in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
                    Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is the
                    Internet and Reader Constantine has the responsibility
                    to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for it.
                    Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on this
                    list too and they have been given a lot of room to
                    make those attacks.
                    Joseph Digrande
                    --- Michael Nikitin <mikeniki@...> wrote:
                    > Reader Constantine writes in harmony with Metr.
                    > Vitaly. Why is it that you
                    > and other priests on this list do not defend Metr.
                    > Vitaly when others say
                    > that he is erroneous , but come to the defense of
                    > someone who disagrees with
                    > Metr.Vitaly? Metr. Vitaly status is higher than
                    > anyone in ROCOR.
                    >
                    >
                    > Daniel Lieuwen wrote:
                    >
                    > Reader Constantine:
                    >
                    > Please quit pretending to speak for the ROCOR. Go
                    > join your chosen group of
                    > the "last fourteen true Russian Orthodox Christians"
                    > if you want to, but quit pretending that your
                    > tirades against clergymen
                    > who have been in ROCOR far longer than yourself
                    > represent anything other
                    > than a small group of schismatic-wannabees. If you
                    > cannot be respectful to
                    > those whose status in the church is higher than
                    > yourselves, then if you
                    > "cannot learn to speak, learn to keep silence" (to
                    > paraphrase St. Jerome's
                    > _Against Helvidius_).
                    >
                    > Fr. John Shaw does not speak for all of us. I am
                    > disgusted that these
                    > words come from one who will, nevertheless, grace
                    > the Sergianist
                    > Anti-religious Organization with the designation
                    > "church" and its head,
                    > Agent Drozdov, with the title "Patriarch."
                    >
                    >
                    > I am disgusted by your attack on Fr. John.
                    >
                    > As Fr. Seraphim Rose of blessed memory tells us,
                    > "It is later than we
                    > think."
                    >
                    >
                    > I believe Fr. Seraphim would be deeply distressed to
                    > see you using him to
                    > justify the poison that you spew on these lists. He
                    > was firm, but he did
                    > not spit venom against those he disagreed with.
                    > Rather, he encouraged
                    > people
                    > to choose a better path and disagreed with great
                    > civility. His arguments
                    > with clergymen like Fr. Alexander Schmemann in other
                    > jurisdictions show
                    > a restraint that you do not apply to _anyone_ with
                    > whom you disagree,
                    > whatever
                    > their ecclesiastical rank and whatever jurisdiction.
                    > His treatment of
                    > Buddhism is kinder than your treatment of your
                    > Orthodox opponants in your
                    > same jurisdiction. This is the mark of a sectarian,
                    > not of an Orthodox
                    > traditionalist.
                    >
                    > I apologize for not remonstrating with you privately
                    > as was my Christian
                    > duty previously. Having failed in that duty and
                    > seen to what levels you
                    > have sunk in public, I am forced to take the dispute
                    > to the next level.
                    >
                    > Reader Daniel Lieuwen
                    > (also in ROCOR and disgusted by the reputation you
                    > give it)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    _________________________________________________________________________
                    > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
                    > http://www.hotmail.com
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                    > Share information about yourself, create your own
                    > public profile at
                    > http://profiles.msn.com
                    >
                    >


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                  • rjmanz
                    Dear List, I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a conservative view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically an
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                      Dear List,

                      I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a
                      "conservative" view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically an
                      immediate backlash with personal criticisms against that person, making this
                      a very unsafe place to dialogue at times.
                      I also agree that in most cases, not all, the points presented are not
                      discussed or rebutted with facts, but instead are replied with personal
                      attacks, or labels of being a schismatic, sectarian, or fanatic.
                      I am very troubled about recent things, including the epistle from the
                      ROAC, as well as our clergy commemorating the Jerusalem Pat., and the Serbs
                      who are very ecumenical despite the slant presented on this list.
                      It would be welcomed for the clergy on this List to help us out with some
                      of these issues and what these things mean in light of the 1983 Anathema.
                      Can this be discussed without stirring up a hornets nest?

                      Nectarios Manzanero
                      St John Maximovitch Mission, Austin
                      --
                      Sincerely, An iPhone User
                    • byakimov@csc.com.au
                      Dear Nectarious I have asked some of our Bishops to bring the 1983 Anathema and other issues at the coming SOBOR of Bishops and for the SOBOR to make a clear
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 4, 2000
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                        Dear Nectarious

                        I have asked some of our Bishops to bring the 1983 Anathema and other
                        issues at the coming SOBOR of Bishops and for the SOBOR to make
                        a clear statement in regard to these issues - so that we can all ROCA can
                        interpret
                        the statement only in one way and not be confused as we seem to be
                        at times.

                        Unworthy Deacon Basil from Canberra



                        "rjmanz" <smartcats@...> on 10/05/2000 02:06:54 PM

                        Please respond to orthodox-synod@egroups.com

                        To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                        cc: (bcc: Basil Yakimov/AUST/CSC)
                        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] RE:Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor



                        Dear List,

                        I quite agree with Joseph. It seems that whenever one comes from a
                        "conservative" view and brings up issues on this List, there is typically
                        an
                        immediate backlash with personal criticisms against that person, making
                        this
                        a very unsafe place to dialogue at times.
                        I also agree that in most cases, not all, the points presented are not
                        discussed or rebutted with facts, but instead are replied with personal
                        attacks, or labels of being a schismatic, sectarian, or fanatic.
                        I am very troubled about recent things, including the epistle from the
                        ROAC, as well as our clergy commemorating the Jerusalem Pat., and the Serbs
                        who are very ecumenical despite the slant presented on this list.
                        It would be welcomed for the clergy on this List to help us out with
                        some
                        of these issues and what these things mean in light of the 1983 Anathema.
                        Can this be discussed without stirring up a hornets nest?

                        Nectarios Manzanero
                        St John Maximovitch Mission, Austin
                        --
                        Sincerely, An iPhone User

                        Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                      • Rev. John R. Shaw
                        ... And as I said on the other list--I do not recall the MP ever having entered the discussion. The issue was ROAC .
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                          On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Michael Nikitin wrote:

                          > How about the issue of the M.P.?
                          >
                          And as I said on the other list--I do not recall the MP ever
                          having entered the discussion. The issue was "ROAC".
                          >
                          > Fr.John Shaw wrote:
                          >
                          > As I said on a parallel list--Metropolitan Vitaly, contrary to the
                          > claims of M. Nikitin, in fact *presided* over the Synod as it decided to
                          > depose Valentine--therefore it is I whose remarks are "in harmony" with
                          > his position.
                          > In Christ
                          > Fr. John R. Shaw
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________________
                          > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
                          >
                          > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Rev. John R. Shaw
                          ... They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray ROCOR as having deviated from its former positions , and to portray themselves as true bearers of the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                            On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Joseph Digrande wrote:

                            > The real issue in this post is not Reader Constantine
                            > but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns about
                            > the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.

                            They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray ROCOR as having
                            "deviated from its former positions", and to portray themselves as true
                            bearers of the tradition of the Russian Church.

                            > There have been attacks
                            on Vladimir
                            Moss and Father > Stephen of Denver on the Indiana list but the Synod
                            > through the priests who have responded have not been
                            > able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of Moss
                            > (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this list
                            > is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
                            > positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the Synod
                            > has swallowed them hook, line and sinker.

                            In fact, Met. Cyprian of Fili is not the object of much attention
                            in ROCOR circles, aside from a few clergy that are friends with his
                            followers. His views are not talked about--except by a few that disagree
                            with them. Consequently it seems strange to me that we should hear all
                            this talk about "Cyprian of Fili having converted ROCOR to his teachings".
                            99% of our laity have never even heard of him or his Synod.

                            However, it is a clear enough fact that the Church Abroad has
                            traditionally *not* denied that the other Orthodox Churches have grace.
                            This has been amply documented by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff.

                            The beauty of > Orthodoxy is that one can question policies and
                            > ecclesial positions without being silenced, threatened
                            > or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every right
                            > to question these policies and remain in the Synod. He
                            > has a right to question them publically and privately.
                            > In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
                            > responsibility that no one should shirk.

                            It is interesting that we should hear so much about C's "right and
                            obligation to speak out", yet he makes a habit of treating the ROCOR
                            clergy who disagree with him in a disrespectful and rude manner. I do not
                            recall seeing anyone--clergy or laity--reply to Rd. Constantine in the
                            kind of tone that he himself seems to favor.

                            Be that as it may, the rest of us also have a right to speak out
                            about these matters that concern us; and if we see that misinformation
                            (let alone *dis*information!) is being propounded, day after day, on the
                            internet, and that outsiders are starting to believe and repeat it,--then
                            we too have a duty to speak up for our Church.

                            Ecumenism and
                            > Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and discussed
                            > in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
                            > Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is the
                            > Internet and Reader Constantine has the responsibility
                            > to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for it.
                            > Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on this
                            > list too and they have been given a lot of room to
                            > make those attacks.

                            "Ad hominem" means that instead of saying that Joseph DiGrande is
                            the victim of disinformation, I say that "Joseph Digrande is
                            such-and-such, therefore he is discredited adn disqualified; therefore his
                            words should be ignored and his testimony rejected".
                            Whom do you know that talks in this manner?

                            But what I agree with in Mr. DiGrande's posting is that we should
                            discuss the issues frankly--and courteously.
                            Unfortunately there are several issues (such as church schisms)
                            that have become inseparable from their central personalities; just as
                            there are some personalities (e.g. Rd. Constantine) that are hard to view
                            apart from their "positions".

                            In Christ
                            Fr. John R. Shaw
                          • Rd. Constantine Wright
                            Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever! ... That document, and the thoughts contained in it, *are* blasphemy, and I will always continue to proclaim that. But I
                            Message 13 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!

                              >Poster: Ascension Monastery <mga@...>
                              >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and ROCOR
                              >
                              >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ... He accuses the >ROCOR of
                              >moving recklessly toward Moscow.

                              That document, and the thoughts contained in it, *are* blasphemy, and I will
                              always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the only one who sees this.
                              Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:

                              "It was with great sadness that I read the "statement" of the participants
                              in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                              the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement, I am deeply convinced,
                              is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases, containing not even one
                              healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of the myriad
                              ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox Church at the end of the
                              20th century.

                              Recently, more than ever before, the question of the unification of the MP
                              and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these statements most often
                              issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning for ecclesiastical truth
                              is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of their spiritual children.
                              ....

                              And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop Mark is trying to
                              accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there so many pastors within
                              Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the spiritual dead-end that
                              the post-Soviet church administration is ardently trying to lead them into?
                              (We know well that the price of searching for the truth is very high -
                              sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take the threats that were
                              received by the recently murdered Archpriest Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                              Petersburg just before his transfer under the omophorion of the Russian
                              Church Abroad)."


                              >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                              >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod to ROCA Sobor
                              >
                              >How about the issue of the M.P.?

                              The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First Hierarchs, is clear:

                              From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad,
                              Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka Philaret):

                              "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka Anthony's (1934): 'The
                              present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety and
                              confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and deceits. It is noteworthy
                              that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the most part
                              Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical unity, and to the
                              question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with references to
                              self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in Moscow, America, and
                              Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to believe in the unity of
                              the Church throughout the whole world and do not wish to admit it,
                              attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true Church to have relations
                              with them, and imagining that one can supposedly save ones soul even without
                              communion with Her. . . Those who have cut themselves off from Her deprive
                              themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical
                              Council teach concerning this, having recognized the renegades as being
                              totally devoid of grace,
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ according
                              to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto
                              thee as an heathen man and a publican."

                              From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:

                              The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of the true Church*.

                              What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite Constantine has often and
                              insistently stated that the most horrible thing that the God-hating regime
                              has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet church," which the
                              Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true Church, having driven the
                              genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into the concentration camps.

                              This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His Holiness Patriarch
                              Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor anathematized the Communists and
                              *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has not been lifted till this
                              day and remains in force, since it can be lifted only by a similar
                              All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme ecclesiastical authority.
                              And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the head of the Church,
                              Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate Declaration, subjected
                              the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed collaboration with them.
                              And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the expression in the prayer at
                              the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under their own anathema"! For
                              in 1918 the Church anathematized all the confederates of Communism, while in
                              1927 she herself joined the camp of these collaborators and began to laud
                              the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast spoken of in the
                              Apocalypse.

                              As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius promulgated his criminal
                              Declaration, then the faithful children of the Church immediately separated
                              themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the Catacomb Church was formed.
                              And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official church for its betrayal
                              of Christ."

                              And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan Vitaly:

                              "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate have been chosen by the
                              communist state * , which has suddenly declared itself to be a democracy.
                              This senior administration of the Moscow Patriarchate is simply a government
                              institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who comprise it are no more
                              than government officials in cassocks. There are "clever" people who will
                              tell you that this entire letter is just the Metropolitan's own personal
                              opinion. But here I will reply that I have been compelled to write this
                              letter by endless protests from throughout our great Russian diaspora."

                              And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar epistle:

                              "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for all to hear, that since
                              1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his lamentable "declaration," and up
                              to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia has not had
                              and does not have any communion in prayer with the Moscow Patriachate, which
                              is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of the former Soviet regime."

                              I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR on the Sergianist
                              organization. I could close with words of my own... but I think it far
                              better to end with the admonition of our First Hierarch:

                              "And so I, as First Hierarch, am calling upon all of you to remain forever
                              faithful to our Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia and not to be
                              confused by those appeals which we are all hearing more and more
                              often that we should unite and concelebrate with others in the name of a
                              loudly proclaimed "brotherly love." Where is our "brotherly love" when we
                              are living, in that which is most important to us - our Divine Services -
                              according to different calendars, and living a different spiritual life? Let
                              us ponder the meaning of that most important phrase "Divine Service," which
                              is to say, "serving God" and then we will understand that in fact we are
                              serving God Himself in different ways."

                              With Christ's love,
                              Rd. Constantine

                              #############################################################
                              # Reader Constantine Wright PO Box 774, Athens, GA 30603 #
                              # constantinew@... constans@... #
                              # Personal Page- http://members.tripod.com/~constans_wright #
                              #-----------------------------------------------------------#
                              # Joy of All Who Sorrow Eastern Orthodox Church (ROCOR) #
                              # Church Web Site - http://www.churchabroad.org/parish/htm #
                              #############################################################

                              _________________________________________________________________________
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                            • Joseph Digrande
                              This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
                              • 0 Attachment
                                This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in
                                our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the
                                Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                                termed a rightful Patriarch according to Father
                                Alexander (I assume that all these quotes I read are
                                accurate). It seems that Archbishop Mark held talks
                                with the MP under the assumption that he was dealing
                                with a canonical institution with a legitimate
                                hierarchy. If ROCA thinks that their hierarchy and
                                orders are valid (of the Synod and its Patriarch),
                                then ROCA disagrees with the position of Met. Joseph
                                and Peter at the time of the emergence of the catacomb
                                church. That is what is so confusing about our Church.
                                I hope the Sobor will address this as well as the 1983
                                anathema.
                                Joseph Digrande
                                --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
                                <constantinew@...> wrote:
                                > Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
                                >
                                > >Poster: Ascension Monastery
                                > <mga@...>
                                > >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and
                                > ROCOR
                                > >
                                > >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ...
                                > He accuses the >ROCOR of
                                > >moving recklessly toward Moscow.
                                >
                                > That document, and the thoughts contained in it,
                                > *are* blasphemy, and I will
                                > always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the
                                > only one who sees this.
                                > Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:
                                >
                                > "It was with great sadness that I read the
                                > "statement" of the participants
                                > in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                                > the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement,
                                > I am deeply convinced,
                                > is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases,
                                > containing not even one
                                > healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of
                                > the myriad
                                > ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox
                                > Church at the end of the
                                > 20th century.
                                >
                                > Recently, more than ever before, the question of the
                                > unification of the MP
                                > and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these
                                > statements most often
                                > issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning
                                > for ecclesiastical truth
                                > is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of
                                > their spiritual children.
                                > ....
                                >
                                > And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop
                                > Mark is trying to
                                > accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there
                                > so many pastors within
                                > Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the
                                > spiritual dead-end that
                                > the post-Soviet church administration is ardently
                                > trying to lead them into?
                                > (We know well that the price of searching for the
                                > truth is very high -
                                > sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take
                                > the threats that were
                                > received by the recently murdered Archpriest
                                > Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                                > Petersburg just before his transfer under the
                                > omophorion of the Russian
                                > Church Abroad)."
                                >
                                >
                                > >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                                > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod
                                > to ROCA Sobor
                                > >
                                > >How about the issue of the M.P.?
                                >
                                > The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First
                                > Hierarchs, is clear:
                                >
                                > From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian
                                > Orthodox Church Abroad,
                                > Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka
                                > Philaret):
                                >
                                > "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka
                                > Anthony's (1934): 'The
                                > present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety
                                > and
                                > confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and
                                > deceits. It is noteworthy
                                > that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the
                                > most part
                                > Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical
                                > unity, and to the
                                > question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with
                                > references to
                                > self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in
                                > Moscow, America, and
                                > Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to
                                > believe in the unity of
                                > the Church throughout the whole world and do not
                                > wish to admit it,
                                > attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true
                                > Church to have relations
                                > with them, and imagining that one can supposedly
                                > save ones soul even without
                                > communion with Her. . . Those who have cut
                                > themselves off from Her deprive
                                > themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers
                                > of the Sixth Ecumenical
                                > Council teach concerning this, having recognized the
                                > renegades as being
                                > totally devoid of grace,
                                >
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                > according
                                > to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the
                                > church, let him be unto
                                > thee as an heathen man and a publican."
                                >
                                > From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:
                                >
                                > The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of
                                > the true Church*.
                                >
                                > What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite
                                > Constantine has often and
                                > insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                                > the God-hating regime
                                > has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet
                                > church," which the
                                > Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true
                                > Church, having driven the
                                > genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into
                                > the concentration camps.
                                >
                                > This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His
                                > Holiness Patriarch
                                > Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor
                                > anathematized the Communists and
                                > *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has
                                > not been lifted till this
                                > day and remains in force, since it can be lifted
                                > only by a similar
                                > All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme
                                > ecclesiastical authority.
                                > And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the
                                > head of the Church,
                                > Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate
                                > Declaration, subjected
                                > the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed
                                > collaboration with them.
                                > And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the
                                > expression in the prayer at
                                > the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under
                                > their own anathema"! For
                                > in 1918 the Church anathematized all the
                                > confederates of Communism, while in
                                > 1927 she herself joined the camp of these
                                > collaborators and began to laud
                                > the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast
                                > spoken of in the
                                > Apocalypse.
                                >
                                > As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius
                                > promulgated his criminal
                                > Declaration, then the faithful children of the
                                > Church immediately separated
                                > themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the
                                > Catacomb Church was formed.
                                > And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official
                                > church for its betrayal
                                > of Christ."
                                >
                                > And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan
                                > Vitaly:
                                >
                                > "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate
                                > have been chosen by the
                                > communist state * , which has suddenly declared
                                > itself to be a democracy.
                                > This senior administration of the Moscow
                                > Patriarchate is simply a government
                                > institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who
                                > comprise it are no more
                                > than government officials in cassocks. There are
                                > "clever" people who will
                                > tell you that this entire letter is just the
                                > Metropolitan's own personal
                                > opinion. But here I will reply that I have been
                                > compelled to write this
                                > letter by endless protests from throughout our great
                                > Russian diaspora."
                                >
                                > And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar
                                > epistle:
                                >
                                > "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for
                                > all to hear, that since
                                > 1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his
                                > lamentable "declaration," and up
                                > to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church
                                > Outside Russia has not had
                                > and does not have any communion in prayer with the
                                > Moscow Patriachate, which
                                > is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of
                                > the former Soviet regime."
                                >
                                > I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR
                                > on the Sergianist
                                > organization. I could close with words of my own...
                                > but I think it far
                                > better to end with the admonition of our First
                                > Hierarch:
                                >
                                === message truncated ===


                                __________________________________________________
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                              • Joseph Digrande
                                This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  This seems crystal clear to me. So what happenned in
                                  our Church between the Decolaration of 1927 when the
                                  Met. of Moscow became uncanonical and Alexi I who was
                                  termed a rightful Patriarch according to Father
                                  Alexander (I assume that all these quotes I read are
                                  accurate). It seems that Archbishop Mark held talks
                                  with the MP under the assumption that he was dealing
                                  with a canonical institution with a legitimate
                                  hierarchy. If ROCA thinks that their hierarchy and
                                  orders are valid (of the Synod and its Patriarch),
                                  then ROCA disagrees with the position of Met. Joseph
                                  and Peter at the time of the emergence of the catacomb
                                  church. That is what is so confusing about our Church.
                                  I hope the Sobor will address this as well as the 1983
                                  anathema.
                                  Joseph Digrande
                                  --- "Rd. Constantine Wright"
                                  <constantinew@...> wrote:
                                  > Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory Forever!
                                  >
                                  > >Poster: Ascension Monastery
                                  > <mga@...>
                                  > >Subject: Rdr Constantine's views of HOCNA and
                                  > ROCOR
                                  > >
                                  > >He accused our Archbishop Mark of blasphemy. ...
                                  > He accuses the >ROCOR of
                                  > >moving recklessly toward Moscow.
                                  >
                                  > That document, and the thoughts contained in it,
                                  > *are* blasphemy, and I will
                                  > always continue to proclaim that. But I am not the
                                  > only one who sees this.
                                  > Here are the words of Vladyka Kyrill of Seattle:
                                  >
                                  > "It was with great sadness that I read the
                                  > "statement" of the participants
                                  > in the ninth meeting between clergy of the ROCOR and
                                  > the MP on the territory of Germany. This statement,
                                  > I am deeply convinced,
                                  > is an irresponsible collection of demagogic phrases,
                                  > containing not even one
                                  > healthy thought that could lead to the resolution of
                                  > the myriad
                                  > ecclesiastical problems of the Russian Orthodox
                                  > Church at the end of the
                                  > 20th century.
                                  >
                                  > Recently, more than ever before, the question of the
                                  > unification of the MP
                                  > and the ROCOR is being trumpeted. Very sadly, these
                                  > statements most often
                                  > issue from the mouths of people for whom yearning
                                  > for ecclesiastical truth
                                  > is foreign, and who sow discord into the minds of
                                  > their spiritual children.
                                  > ....
                                  >
                                  > And if "unification" with the MP, which Archbishop
                                  > Mark is trying to
                                  > accomplish, has become so timely, then why are there
                                  > so many pastors within
                                  > Russia who are struggling to find a way out of the
                                  > spiritual dead-end that
                                  > the post-Soviet church administration is ardently
                                  > trying to lead them into?
                                  > (We know well that the price of searching for the
                                  > truth is very high -
                                  > sometimes it even costs lives - for example, take
                                  > the threats that were
                                  > received by the recently murdered Archpriest
                                  > Alexander Zharkoff in St.
                                  > Petersburg just before his transfer under the
                                  > omophorion of the Russian
                                  > Church Abroad)."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >From: "Michael Nikitin" <mikeniki@...>
                                  > >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re:Epistle of ROAC Synod
                                  > to ROCA Sobor
                                  > >
                                  > >How about the issue of the M.P.?
                                  >
                                  > The position of our ROCOR, as expressed by our First
                                  > Hierarchs, is clear:
                                  >
                                  > From the founding First Hierarch of the Russian
                                  > Orthodox Church Abroad,
                                  > Metropolitan Antony of Kiev (quoted by Vladyka
                                  > Philaret):
                                  >
                                  > "A quotation from a Paschal encyclical of Vladyka
                                  > Anthony's (1934): 'The
                                  > present age is rich not in ascetical feats of piety
                                  > and
                                  > confession of faith, but in cheating, lies, and
                                  > deceits. It is noteworthy
                                  > that several hierarchs and their flocks, for the
                                  > most part
                                  > Russians, have already fallen away from Ecumenical
                                  > unity, and to the
                                  > question: 'What dost thou believe?', reply with
                                  > references to
                                  > self-proclaimed heads of all sorts of schisms in
                                  > Moscow, America, and
                                  > Western Europe. It is clear that they have ceased to
                                  > believe in the unity of
                                  > the Church throughout the whole world and do not
                                  > wish to admit it,
                                  > attempting to bear calmly the refusal of the true
                                  > Church to have relations
                                  > with them, and imagining that one can supposedly
                                  > save ones soul even without
                                  > communion with Her. . . Those who have cut
                                  > themselves off from Her deprive
                                  > themselves of the hope of salvation, as the Fathers
                                  > of the Sixth Ecumenical
                                  > Council teach concerning this, having recognized the
                                  > renegades as being
                                  > totally devoid of grace,
                                  >
                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                  > according
                                  > to the word of Christ: but if he neglect to hear the
                                  > church, let him be unto
                                  > thee as an heathen man and a publican."
                                  >
                                  > From the sainted Metropolitan Philaret:
                                  >
                                  > The so-called Moscow Patriarchate is "*outside of
                                  > the true Church*.
                                  >
                                  > What then is the "Soviet church"? Archimandrite
                                  > Constantine has often and
                                  > insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                                  > the God-hating regime
                                  > has done in Russia is the creation of the "Soviet
                                  > church," which the
                                  > Bolsheviks presented to the people as the true
                                  > Church, having driven the
                                  > genuine Orthodox Church into the catacombs or into
                                  > the concentration camps.
                                  >
                                  > This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized. His
                                  > Holiness Patriarch
                                  > Tikhon and the All-Russian Church Sobor
                                  > anathematized the Communists and
                                  > *all their collaborators.* This dread anathema has
                                  > not been lifted till this
                                  > day and remains in force, since it can be lifted
                                  > only by a similar
                                  > All-Russian Church Sobor, as the canonical supreme
                                  > ecclesiastical authority.
                                  > And a terrifying thing happened in 1927, when the
                                  > head of the Church,
                                  > Metropolitan Sergius, by his infamous and apostate
                                  > Declaration, subjected
                                  > the Russian Church to the Bolsheviks and proclaimed
                                  > collaboration with them.
                                  > And thus in a most exact sense was fulfilled the
                                  > expression in the prayer at
                                  > the beginning of Confession: "having fallen under
                                  > their own anathema"! For
                                  > in 1918 the Church anathematized all the
                                  > confederates of Communism, while in
                                  > 1927 she herself joined the camp of these
                                  > collaborators and began to laud
                                  > the red, God-hating regime - to laud the red beast
                                  > spoken of in the
                                  > Apocalypse.
                                  >
                                  > As if that is not enough. When Metropolitan Sergius
                                  > promulgated his criminal
                                  > Declaration, then the faithful children of the
                                  > Church immediately separated
                                  > themselves from the Soviet church, and thus the
                                  > Catacomb Church was formed.
                                  > And she, in her turn, has anathematized the official
                                  > church for its betrayal
                                  > of Christ."
                                  >
                                  > And from our current First Hierarch Metropolitan
                                  > Vitaly:
                                  >
                                  > "The last four patriarchs of the Moscow Patriarchate
                                  > have been chosen by the
                                  > communist state * , which has suddenly declared
                                  > itself to be a democracy.
                                  > This senior administration of the Moscow
                                  > Patriarchate is simply a government
                                  > institution, devoid of Divine grace, and those who
                                  > comprise it are no more
                                  > than government officials in cassocks. There are
                                  > "clever" people who will
                                  > tell you that this entire letter is just the
                                  > Metropolitan's own personal
                                  > opinion. But here I will reply that I have been
                                  > compelled to write this
                                  > letter by endless protests from throughout our great
                                  > Russian diaspora."
                                  >
                                  > And from His Eminence's most recent pre-conciliar
                                  > epistle:
                                  >
                                  > "We must ourselves understand, and also declare for
                                  > all to hear, that since
                                  > 1927, when Metropolitan Sergius signed his
                                  > lamentable "declaration," and up
                                  > to the present day, our Russian Orthodox Church
                                  > Outside Russia has not had
                                  > and does not have any communion in prayer with the
                                  > Moscow Patriachate, which
                                  > is nothing other than the uncanonical creation of
                                  > the former Soviet regime."
                                  >
                                  > I think this amply shows the true position of ROCOR
                                  > on the Sergianist
                                  > organization. I could close with words of my own...
                                  > but I think it far
                                  > better to end with the admonition of our First
                                  > Hierarch:
                                  >
                                  === message truncated ===


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                                • Joseph Digrande
                                  Everyone has a right and responsibility to speak out wherever they see fit. There have been times when ROCA hierarchs has considered the MP devoid of grace.
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 5, 2000
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                                    Everyone has a right and responsibility to speak out
                                    wherever they see fit. There have been times when ROCA
                                    hierarchs has considered the MP "devoid of grace."
                                    This belief exists amongst many of the clergy. Reader
                                    Constantine has posted several quotes to this effect.
                                    I don't see the logic of denying one thing to Met.
                                    Sergius and then giving it right back to a Met.
                                    Nikodim, Alexi II or even Alexi I. By doing so, it
                                    breaks theological unity with the Catacomb Church,
                                    whose basic thesis was that the Soviet Church has no
                                    grace. This is the position that ROAC has taken over.
                                    Their view of the ecumenical activity of both the
                                    Serbs and Mp is also consistent with the view of the
                                    Catacomb Church of 30/40 years ago.
                                    Father Alexander has not answered Vladimir Moss's
                                    lengthy essay in my mind (and I am not alone). It will
                                    take more than just posting to this site. It requires
                                    as long and as detailed and scholarly an essay,
                                    something our ROCA theological journals have not taken
                                    on.
                                    As far as insulting language- I have heard the
                                    conservatives on this list termed "fanatics- followers
                                    of Panteleimon (without the slightest evidence) and
                                    Father Stephen's decision considered "�diocy", when in
                                    fact he moved from the Synod for reasons of
                                    conscience. If every controversial subject here is met
                                    by the rebuttal of �diocy or fanatics"- how will this
                                    help us understand the real facts here?
                                    Again the Synod is not consistent in my mind on
                                    ecumenism and grace of heretics. My spiritual father
                                    was certain that the MP had no grace. To prevent
                                    confusion, I would pray that our Synod would speak out
                                    on this issue in a clear voice.
                                    Recognizing Met. Cyprian as the only Synod in Greece
                                    means that the Synod accepts their theology hook, line
                                    and sinker. It also negates the Anathema of 1983.
                                    There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                                    encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in OCA
                                    and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                                    parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me from
                                    entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                                    priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                                    father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                                    division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                                    Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                                    Joseph Digrande
                                    --- "Rev. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                    > On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Joseph Digrande wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > The real issue in this post is not Reader
                                    > Constantine
                                    > > but rather does ROAC have legitimate concerns
                                    > about
                                    > > the road that ROCA has taken in the last 5 years.
                                    >
                                    > They would like, for obvious reasons, to portray
                                    > ROCOR as having
                                    > "deviated from its former positions", and to portray
                                    > themselves as true
                                    > bearers of the tradition of the Russian Church.
                                    >
                                    > > There have been attacks
                                    > on Vladimir
                                    > Moss and Father > Stephen of Denver on the Indiana
                                    > list but the Synod
                                    > > through the priests who have responded have not
                                    > been
                                    > > able yet to present a valid rebuttal to essays of
                                    > Moss
                                    > > (e.g. Do the Heretics Have Grace?) I think this
                                    > list
                                    > > is an excellent place to debate the ecclesial
                                    > > positions of Met. Cyprian of Fili in that the
                                    > Synod
                                    > > has swallowed them hook, line and sinker.
                                    >
                                    > In fact, Met. Cyprian of Fili is not the object of
                                    > much attention
                                    > in ROCOR circles, aside from a few clergy that are
                                    > friends with his
                                    > followers. His views are not talked about--except by
                                    > a few that disagree
                                    > with them. Consequently it seems strange to me that
                                    > we should hear all
                                    > this talk about "Cyprian of Fili having converted
                                    > ROCOR to his teachings".
                                    > 99% of our laity have never even heard of him or his
                                    > Synod.
                                    >
                                    > However, it is a clear enough fact that the Church
                                    > Abroad has
                                    > traditionally *not* denied that the other Orthodox
                                    > Churches have grace.
                                    > This has been amply documented by Fr. Alexander
                                    > Lebedeff.
                                    >
                                    > The beauty of > Orthodoxy is that one can question
                                    > policies and
                                    > > ecclesial positions without being silenced,
                                    > threatened
                                    > > or excommunicated. Reader Constantine has every
                                    > right
                                    > > to question these policies and remain in the
                                    > Synod. He
                                    > > has a right to question them publically and
                                    > privately.
                                    > > In a sense it is more than a right, it is a
                                    > > responsibility that no one should shirk.
                                    >
                                    > It is interesting that we should hear so much about
                                    > C's "right and
                                    > obligation to speak out", yet he makes a habit of
                                    > treating the ROCOR
                                    > clergy who disagree with him in a disrespectful and
                                    > rude manner. I do not
                                    > recall seeing anyone--clergy or laity--reply to Rd.
                                    > Constantine in the
                                    > kind of tone that he himself seems to favor.
                                    >
                                    > Be that as it may, the rest of us also have a right
                                    > to speak out
                                    > about these matters that concern us; and if we see
                                    > that misinformation
                                    > (let alone *dis*information!) is being propounded,
                                    > day after day, on the
                                    > internet, and that outsiders are starting to believe
                                    > and repeat it,--then
                                    > we too have a duty to speak up for our Church.
                                    >
                                    > Ecumenism and
                                    > > Sergism need to be seen like Arians were and
                                    > discussed
                                    > > in the marketplace (as St. Gregory Nyssa said the
                                    > > Byzantine Romans used to do). The marketplace is
                                    > the
                                    > > Internet and Reader Constantine has the
                                    > responsibility
                                    > > to throw his two cents in and not be hammered for
                                    > it.
                                    > > Ad hominen attacks have been made by priests on
                                    > this
                                    > > list too and they have been given a lot of room to
                                    > > make those attacks.
                                    >
                                    > "Ad hominem" means that instead of saying that
                                    > Joseph DiGrande is
                                    > the victim of disinformation, I say that "Joseph
                                    > Digrande is
                                    > such-and-such, therefore he is discredited adn
                                    > disqualified; therefore his
                                    > words should be ignored and his testimony rejected".
                                    > Whom do you know that talks in this manner?
                                    >
                                    > But what I agree with in Mr. DiGrande's posting is
                                    > that we should
                                    > discuss the issues frankly--and courteously.
                                    > Unfortunately there are several issues (such as
                                    > church schisms)
                                    > that have become inseparable from their central
                                    > personalities; just as
                                    > there are some personalities (e.g. Rd. Constantine)
                                    > that are hard to view
                                    > apart from their "positions".
                                    >
                                    > In Christ
                                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • elias
                                    Joseph: There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard, that are allowed to commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the Julian Calendar. There are a few
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 6, 2000
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                                      Joseph:

                                      There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard, that are allowed to
                                      commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the Julian Calendar. There are
                                      a few of those around the U.S. That would entail that those Old Calendar OCA
                                      priests also periodically partake of the Eucharist from New Calendar priests
                                      at conventions, parish visits, etc. Is this a gray area? Or do these
                                      situations even exist?

                                      elias

                                      There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                                      encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in OCA
                                      and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                                      parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me from
                                      entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                                      priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                                      father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                                      division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                                      Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                                      Joseph Digrande
                                    • Joseph Digrande
                                      elias: these situations do exist. I live in Alaska and the priest who visits our village celebrates the services in the Old Calendar. He then flies back to
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 7, 2000
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                                        elias: these situations do exist. I live in Alaska and
                                        the priest who visits our village celebrates the
                                        services in the Old Calendar. He then flies back to
                                        Juneau, Sitka or Anchorage and does New Calendar
                                        services. When he comes to our village, I don't attend
                                        or even receive his blessing. I have explained to him
                                        why this is. He is conservative (for the OCA) and is
                                        opposed to ecumenism in theory. He says he agrees with
                                        "95% of what I believe. "We discuss books and he is
                                        welcome in my house- there is no hatred or bad
                                        feelings between us but like everything else nowadays-
                                        the theological situation requires contortions that
                                        would make Houdini proud.
                                        Wouldn't it be so simple for the Synod of the MP to
                                        just confess publically (their relations with the
                                        KGB), disavow ecumenism, become simple monks and I am
                                        sure all of us would forgive them gladly. Who could
                                        judge them in that situation. But they don't and so we
                                        have to continue contorting ourselves. But it is all
                                        about money and power unfortunately at the top of the
                                        MP.
                                        --- elias <h2o@...> wrote:
                                        > Joseph:
                                        >
                                        > There are also those ROCOR members, I have heard,
                                        > that are allowed to
                                        > commune in an OCA parish which is practicing the
                                        > Julian Calendar. There are
                                        > a few of those around the U.S. That would entail
                                        > that those Old Calendar OCA
                                        > priests also periodically partake of the Eucharist
                                        > from New Calendar priests
                                        > at conventions, parish visits, etc. Is this a gray
                                        > area? Or do these
                                        > situations even exist?
                                        >
                                        > elias
                                        >
                                        > There are Bishops and priests in our Synod who
                                        > encourage laity to attend, confess and commune in
                                        > OCA
                                        > and Antiochian parishes when there is no Synod
                                        > parishes close by. My spiritual father forbid me
                                        > from
                                        > entering or taking a blessing from any New Calendar
                                        > priest as well as the Serbs and MP. My spiritual
                                        > father was in the Synod well into his 90's. This
                                        > division is in the Synod and needs to be healed.
                                        > Polite dialogue on this subject is needed.
                                        > Joseph Digrande
                                        >
                                        >


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