Re: [orthodox-synod] Full page ad in The NYTimes
> (2. a)Seventy-five percent of world Jewry is Ashkenazic; they aredescended
> from a Turko-Finnish people, the Khazars, who converted to Judaism inabout
> A.D. 780. They are more related to Hungarians than to Jews.have
> (2.b)They are not the descendants of Abraham, yet they are the ones who
> stolen Palestine from Abraham's descendants, the Arabs. Moreover, andthis,
> too, is morally unconscionable: Sephardic Jews (ethnic Jews) are treatedas
> second class citizens, by the Ashkenazim, in Palestine.snip
Bless Father....I heard this comment from a Jewish friend but she didn't go
into the history/details....could you please expand on this. My other
friend at this meeting is a Evang. and her comments were that there are no
Arab Jews....Arabs cannot be Jewish, they as Muslim. Perhaps I am dense but
could the list address this in more detail.
- Dear and Reverend Father,
So what are you saying? That the Hungarians aren't entitled to
take over the Holy Land either? <grin>
Okay, here are my comments on the same statements?
<< Jews and Christians worship the same God. >>
Since when do Jews worship the Holy Trinity?
<< Jews and Christians seek authority from the same book--the Bible (what
call "Tanakh" and Christians call the "Old Testament). >>
Last I heard, we had a New Testament. Also, we don't derive authority
from the Bible; it would be closer to the truth to say that the Bible
derives its authority from the Church, which compiled it.
<< Christians can respect the claim of the Jewish people upon the
land of Israel. >>
I always think of an old Palestinian poster from the 1970s. It showed
two teenaged girls, one Jewish and one Palestinian. I'm paraphrasing,
but it was something like this:
Jewish girl: "I was born in New York. My family has never lived in
Palestine, but I can 'return' there."
Palestinian girl: "I was born in Palestine. My family has lived there
for sixteen generations. But I cannot return there."
The "return" of the Jews represents, for the most part, a conquest
by a bunch of Americans and Western Europeans, whose hereditary
claim is about as strong as mine is.
On the Ashkenazim: The earliest Jewis settlers in South Carolina
were all Sephardim. (Got the old section of the Hebrew cemetery,
and you'll find stones with names like DeLeon.) The former local Reform
rabbi, himself Ashkenazi, told me that when lots of Ashkenazi
started joining the synagogue, all the Sephardim converted to
the Anglican and Catholic churches to get away from them. He
speculated that their descendants probably had no idea of their
<< Jews and Christians accept the moral principles of Torah. >>
In general -- the stuff about not oppressing strangers, and so on.
But it's a good thing my brother already has 3 sons, because that
Levirate thing . . .
<< Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. >>
So, Protestants and Catholics aren't Christians? Is that what they
mean to say? Come on, Hitler and his closest followers may have
been crypto-pagan wackos, but they drew their support from their
good "Christian" countrymen.
We could re-write these statements as follows:
1) There's no significant difference between any two religions,
"significant" being the key word. Let's talk about something important.
2) We are prepared to overlook Western Christian atrocities against
our people if Western Christians will overlook our offenses against
The latter point is an unnecessary concession; Protestant Evangelicals
are among the most fanatical supporters of Israel.
>My two cents:
The below is a statement that no Right-beliving Christian could agree
to. It is a blatant rejection of Christ and His salvation and a rather
a statement supporting the Jewish political messiah. Any "Christian"
who welcomes this ad is no Christian at all.
> .But I am sure the "relationship" is intended to weaken Christian
> The humanly irreconcilable difference between Jews and Christians will
> not be
> settled until God redeems the entire world, as promised in Scripture.
>OK - a third cent... If by peace they mean their Jewish Messianic age,
> A new relationship between Jews and Christians will not weaken Jewish
you can count me out. Perhaps Jews should come to see how their one
world messianic doctrine and racist attitude to non-Jews has been a
cause for strife in the world. Somehow I doubt their ability to see
this. It is their own racist doctrines that have caused anti-semitism.
Only when the Jews can face this hard fact, will the Jews live in peace.
>My response to the entire Jewish/Christian debate can be found here in
> Jews and Christians must work together for peace.
an article entitled
Answering the B'nei Noach:
The above article was written in response to a Bnei Noach poster to Free
Republic (Zionist Conspirator). It is also an answer to the Bnei Noach
who occasionally spam Orthodox newsgroups.
Recently I had the opportunity to "dialogue" with a Karaite Rabbi (they
reject the Talmud). We agreed to disagree but he did concur that my
argument is flawless. He could only reject my argument based on his
devotion to his faith which to him overrides any logic or historical
- There are two classifications of Jews: Sephardim and Ashkenazim.
The Sephardim ("Spanish" Jews) are the ethnic Jews, descended from those who
were expelled from Palestine, in about A.D. 125, when Jerusalem was
destroyed and sewn in salt, by the Romans.
The Ahkenazim ("German" Jews) are those who are descended from the Kharzars,
who inhabited southern Russia. Their kng and nobility converted to Judaism,
in about A.D. 780. There is a paper in the Dumbarton Oaks Papers, published
by Harvard Unviersity Press, concerning the Kharzars.
Harvard is not some sleazy, anti-Semitic organization. In other words:
This is legitimate. One can demonstrate it.
Indeed, in The Thirteen Tribe, by Arthur Koestler (himself a Jew), Koestler
says of the Ashkenazim: "Their homeland is the Volga, not the Jordan."
Beginning in the 16th century, Protestants began to support the "return" of
these European (i.e., "German") Jews, to Palestine. They did that, in the
false belief that such a "return" would guarantee the Second Coming.
In my view, that, in and of itself, is a clear indication of a form of
relgiious madness. God cannot be edged towards anything! And, that is
precisely what the Evangelical Protestants mean to do, by supporting the
restoration of Israel.
Orthodox Jews believe God will restore Israel, in His own good time. Hence,
the thing called "Israel," in Palestine, since it was established by those
who are not biologically Jewish, and brought about by collusion with the
English, CANNOT be the Israel of God.
Indeed, since Christ Himself is the Israel of God, one must, perforce, agree
with the Orthodox Jews who say that entity in Palestine is not God's Israel.
The so-called "Arab Jews" are those who, after A.D. 125, fled to what became
Arab countries. Doubtless, some intermarried with Arabs, just as the
Ashkenazim intermarried with Germans (hence: Blond haired, blue-eyed
"Semites"). They are the descendants of Abraham, just as the Arabs are.
But, because they lack the kinds of finesse shown by European Jewry, they
are looked down upon by the Ashkenazim.
The very word "Semite" was created by an Oxford Don, to classify languages.
Arabic and Hebrew are cognate languages. They have the same linguistic
roots. Hence, Arabs say: "Salaam aleicum," and Jews (speaking Hebrew) say:
The Semitic languages show a relationship between the two peoples. Probably
the blood lines do, too.
However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are not ethnic
Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of the
children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.
- You are correct. Evangelical Protestants are some of the strongest
supporters of Israel. However, they do it for another reason than support
for Israel. They do it, I think, because they want to cause the Second
Coming! Cause! They apparently believe God can be pushed to set the time
table "up," as it were.
As I said, earlier: That is a form of madness. Arrogant and presumptuous
madness, but madness none the less.
> However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are notethnic
> Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of thesnip
> children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.
Bless Father...what a thought!!! "Stolen the inheritance"????? I will
have to think on this as if one were to carry this line of thought out and
apply to ourselves...Christian...then "we have stolen an inheritance
too"!!!! Blood line stands over religious practice????? I just thought the
conversation by my friends a little racist on both parts but knew there must
be a history there somewhere. I will think on the above....but......seems
to me..." the snake is eating it's tail here".
- Hi Theodora! Andreas here.
To hear it told to me by a Bulgarian friend of mine, he told me the
Ashkenazi Jews converted when they did to keep from going over to the
Bogomil Muslims. I don't know if the dates coincided or not, or if that
was, in fact, the reason for their conversion. But my Bulgarian friend, who
is an extremely "orthodox" Eastern European, (and somewhat radical at
times), would have less complimentary terms for the Ashkenazi.
But nonetheless, the Ashkenazi Jews are no more "jewish" or semitic, than
you or I are Russian, ethnically speaking. The Sephardic Jews of Spain, and
other parts of Europe, could at least, trace their lineage to the old tribes
of Israel, and can show to have a closer bloodline than do the Ashkenazi.
Father Andrew's information is "on the mark", and can be corroborated with a
number of scholastic sources.
Now, whether we, as Orthodox Christians, have also "stolen the
inheritance"... I don't know. I guess that's a topic for more enlightened
minds then mine. :-)
Say hello to everybody for me. And pet the T-Rex for me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Theodora" <theomtn@...>
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Full page ad in The NYTimes
> > However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are not
> > Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of the
> > children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.
> Bless Father...what a thought!!! "Stolen the inheritance"????? I will
> have to think on this as if one were to carry this line of thought out and
> apply to ourselves...Christian...then "we have stolen an inheritance
> too"!!!! Blood line stands over religious practice????? I just thought
> conversation by my friends a little racist on both parts but knew there
> be a history there somewhere. I will think on the above....but......seems
> to me..." the snake is eating it's tail here".
> Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
> But nonetheless, the Ashkenazi Jews are no more "jewish" or semitic, thanSNIP
> you or I are Russian, ethnically speaking.
> Father Andrew's information is "on the mark", and can be corroborated with
> number of scholastic sources.woof woof !!!! :-) He is gaining ground everyday...the skunks and
> Now, whether we, as Orthodox Christians, have also "stolen the
> inheritance"... I don't know. I guess that's a topic for more enlightened
> minds then mine. :-)
> Say hello to everybody for me. And pet the T-Rex for me.
racoons run the other direction. :-)
I know, the imformation was good but a thought...how many of the Ashkenazi
Jews died in the death camps???? Does it make a difference???? I didn't
think it did when counting the number killed. You and I know that my Evang.
friend 's view is somewhat lopsided but I just can't get a hold on this
It was just a thought.....one better left unthought I think.
Don't forget Conference...you should see the Parish Hall!
PS T-Rex now has three news neighbors just like him.