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Re: [orthodox-synod] Full page ad in The NYTimes

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  • Theodora
    ... descended ... about ... have ... this, ... as ... snip Bless Father....I heard this comment from a Jewish friend but she didn t go into the
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 10, 2000
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      > (2. a)Seventy-five percent of world Jewry is Ashkenazic; they are
      descended
      > from a Turko-Finnish people, the Khazars, who converted to Judaism in
      about
      > A.D. 780. They are more related to Hungarians than to Jews.
      >
      > (2.b)They are not the descendants of Abraham, yet they are the ones who
      have
      > stolen Palestine from Abraham's descendants, the Arabs. Moreover, and
      this,
      > too, is morally unconscionable: Sephardic Jews (ethnic Jews) are treated
      as
      > second class citizens, by the Ashkenazim, in Palestine.

      snip

      Bless Father....I heard this comment from a Jewish friend but she didn't go
      into the history/details....could you please expand on this. My other
      friend at this meeting is a Evang. and her comments were that there are no
      Arab Jews....Arabs cannot be Jewish, they as Muslim. Perhaps I am dense but
      could the list address this in more detail.

      Theodora
    • pwrbarrett@aol.com
      Dear and Reverend Father, So what are you saying? That the Hungarians aren t entitled to take over the Holy Land either? Okay, here are my comments on
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 10, 2000
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        Dear and Reverend Father,

        So what are you saying? That the Hungarians aren't entitled to
        take over the Holy Land either? <grin>

        Okay, here are my comments on the same statements?

        << Jews and Christians worship the same God. >>

        Since when do Jews worship the Holy Trinity?

        << Jews and Christians seek authority from the same book--the Bible (what
        Jews
        call "Tanakh" and Christians call the "Old Testament). >>

        Last I heard, we had a New Testament. Also, we don't derive authority
        from the Bible; it would be closer to the truth to say that the Bible
        derives its authority from the Church, which compiled it.

        << Christians can respect the claim of the Jewish people upon the
        land of Israel. >>

        I always think of an old Palestinian poster from the 1970s. It showed
        two teenaged girls, one Jewish and one Palestinian. I'm paraphrasing,
        but it was something like this:

        Jewish girl: "I was born in New York. My family has never lived in
        Palestine, but I can 'return' there."

        Palestinian girl: "I was born in Palestine. My family has lived there
        for sixteen generations. But I cannot return there."

        The "return" of the Jews represents, for the most part, a conquest
        by a bunch of Americans and Western Europeans, whose hereditary
        claim is about as strong as mine is.

        On the Ashkenazim: The earliest Jewis settlers in South Carolina
        were all Sephardim. (Got the old section of the Hebrew cemetery,
        and you'll find stones with names like DeLeon.) The former local Reform
        rabbi, himself Ashkenazi, told me that when lots of Ashkenazi
        started joining the synagogue, all the Sephardim converted to
        the Anglican and Catholic churches to get away from them. He
        speculated that their descendants probably had no idea of their
        Jewish ancestry.

        << Jews and Christians accept the moral principles of Torah. >>

        In general -- the stuff about not oppressing strangers, and so on.
        But it's a good thing my brother already has 3 sons, because that
        Levirate thing . . .

        << Nazism was not a Christian phenomenon. >>

        So, Protestants and Catholics aren't Christians? Is that what they
        mean to say? Come on, Hitler and his closest followers may have
        been crypto-pagan wackos, but they drew their support from their
        good "Christian" countrymen.

        We could re-write these statements as follows:

        1) There's no significant difference between any two religions,
        "significant" being the key word. Let's talk about something important.

        2) We are prepared to overlook Western Christian atrocities against
        our people if Western Christians will overlook our offenses against
        Eastern Christians.

        The latter point is an unnecessary concession; Protestant Evangelicals
        are among the most fanatical supporters of Israel.

        Love,

        Patrick
      • Rachel Peters
        ... My two cents: The below is a statement that no Right-beliving Christian could agree to. It is a blatant rejection of Christ and His salvation and a rather
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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          >

          My two cents:
          The below is a statement that no Right-beliving Christian could agree
          to. It is a blatant rejection of Christ and His salvation and a rather
          a statement supporting the Jewish political messiah. Any "Christian"
          who welcomes this ad is no Christian at all.


          > .
          > The humanly irreconcilable difference between Jews and Christians will
          > not be
          > settled until God redeems the entire world, as promised in Scripture.

          But I am sure the "relationship" is intended to weaken Christian
          practice.

          >
          > A new relationship between Jews and Christians will not weaken Jewish
          > practice.

          OK - a third cent... If by peace they mean their Jewish Messianic age,
          you can count me out. Perhaps Jews should come to see how their one
          world messianic doctrine and racist attitude to non-Jews has been a
          cause for strife in the world. Somehow I doubt their ability to see
          this. It is their own racist doctrines that have caused anti-semitism.
          Only when the Jews can face this hard fact, will the Jews live in peace.

          >
          > Jews and Christians must work together for peace.
          >

          My response to the entire Jewish/Christian debate can be found here in
          an article entitled
          Answering the B'nei Noach:
          http://www.geocities.com/sj_russian/HA/lesna.htm#Noach

          The above article was written in response to a Bnei Noach poster to Free
          Republic (Zionist Conspirator). It is also an answer to the Bnei Noach
          who occasionally spam Orthodox newsgroups.

          Recently I had the opportunity to "dialogue" with a Karaite Rabbi (they
          reject the Talmud). We agreed to disagree but he did concur that my
          argument is flawless. He could only reject my argument based on his
          devotion to his faith which to him overrides any logic or historical
          facts

          In Christ,
          sinner Katina.
        • LJames6034@aol.com
          There are two classifications of Jews: Sephardim and Ashkenazim. The Sephardim ( Spanish Jews) are the ethnic Jews, descended from those who were expelled
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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            There are two classifications of Jews: Sephardim and Ashkenazim.

            The Sephardim ("Spanish" Jews) are the ethnic Jews, descended from those who
            were expelled from Palestine, in about A.D. 125, when Jerusalem was
            destroyed and sewn in salt, by the Romans.

            The Ahkenazim ("German" Jews) are those who are descended from the Kharzars,
            who inhabited southern Russia. Their kng and nobility converted to Judaism,
            in about A.D. 780. There is a paper in the Dumbarton Oaks Papers, published
            by Harvard Unviersity Press, concerning the Kharzars.

            Harvard is not some sleazy, anti-Semitic organization. In other words:
            This is legitimate. One can demonstrate it.

            Indeed, in The Thirteen Tribe, by Arthur Koestler (himself a Jew), Koestler
            says of the Ashkenazim: "Their homeland is the Volga, not the Jordan."

            Beginning in the 16th century, Protestants began to support the "return" of
            these European (i.e., "German") Jews, to Palestine. They did that, in the
            false belief that such a "return" would guarantee the Second Coming.

            In my view, that, in and of itself, is a clear indication of a form of
            relgiious madness. God cannot be edged towards anything! And, that is
            precisely what the Evangelical Protestants mean to do, by supporting the
            restoration of Israel.

            Orthodox Jews believe God will restore Israel, in His own good time. Hence,
            the thing called "Israel," in Palestine, since it was established by those
            who are not biologically Jewish, and brought about by collusion with the
            English, CANNOT be the Israel of God.

            Indeed, since Christ Himself is the Israel of God, one must, perforce, agree
            with the Orthodox Jews who say that entity in Palestine is not God's Israel.

            The so-called "Arab Jews" are those who, after A.D. 125, fled to what became
            Arab countries. Doubtless, some intermarried with Arabs, just as the
            Ashkenazim intermarried with Germans (hence: Blond haired, blue-eyed
            "Semites"). They are the descendants of Abraham, just as the Arabs are.
            But, because they lack the kinds of finesse shown by European Jewry, they
            are looked down upon by the Ashkenazim.

            The very word "Semite" was created by an Oxford Don, to classify languages.
            Arabic and Hebrew are cognate languages. They have the same linguistic
            roots. Hence, Arabs say: "Salaam aleicum," and Jews (speaking Hebrew) say:
            "Shalom aleicum."
            The Semitic languages show a relationship between the two peoples. Probably
            the blood lines do, too.

            However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are not ethnic
            Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of the
            children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.

            ALJJ+
          • LJames6034@aol.com
            You are correct. Evangelical Protestants are some of the strongest supporters of Israel. However, they do it for another reason than support for Israel.
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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              You are correct. Evangelical Protestants are some of the strongest
              supporters of Israel. However, they do it for another reason than support
              for Israel. They do it, I think, because they want to cause the Second
              Coming! Cause! They apparently believe God can be pushed to set the time
              table "up," as it were.

              As I said, earlier: That is a form of madness. Arrogant and presumptuous
              madness, but madness none the less.

              ALJJ+
            • Theodora
              snip ... ethnic ... snip Bless Father...what a thought!!! Stolen the inheritance ????? I will have to think on this as if one were to carry this line of
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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                snip
                > However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are not
                ethnic
                > Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of the
                > children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.
                >

                snip

                Bless Father...what a thought!!! "Stolen the inheritance"????? I will
                have to think on this as if one were to carry this line of thought out and
                apply to ourselves...Christian...then "we have stolen an inheritance
                too"!!!! Blood line stands over religious practice????? I just thought the
                conversation by my friends a little racist on both parts but knew there must
                be a history there somewhere. I will think on the above....but......seems
                to me..." the snake is eating it's tail here".

                Theodora
              • Ernest O'Dell
                Hi Theodora! Andreas here. To hear it told to me by a Bulgarian friend of mine, he told me the Ashkenazi Jews converted when they did to keep from going over
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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                  Hi Theodora! Andreas here.

                  To hear it told to me by a Bulgarian friend of mine, he told me the
                  Ashkenazi Jews converted when they did to keep from going over to the
                  Bogomil Muslims. I don't know if the dates coincided or not, or if that
                  was, in fact, the reason for their conversion. But my Bulgarian friend, who
                  is an extremely "orthodox" Eastern European, (and somewhat radical at
                  times), would have less complimentary terms for the Ashkenazi.

                  But nonetheless, the Ashkenazi Jews are no more "jewish" or semitic, than
                  you or I are Russian, ethnically speaking. The Sephardic Jews of Spain, and
                  other parts of Europe, could at least, trace their lineage to the old tribes
                  of Israel, and can show to have a closer bloodline than do the Ashkenazi.

                  Father Andrew's information is "on the mark", and can be corroborated with a
                  number of scholastic sources.

                  Now, whether we, as Orthodox Christians, have also "stolen the
                  inheritance"... I don't know. I guess that's a topic for more enlightened
                  minds then mine. :-)

                  Say hello to everybody for me. And pet the T-Rex for me.

                  O anaxios,
                  Andreas


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Theodora" <theomtn@...>
                  To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 1:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Full page ad in The NYTimes


                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > snip
                  > > However, the Ashkenazim, however well they may speak Hebrew, are not
                  > ethnic
                  > > Jews. They are ethnic Europeans who have stolen the inheritance of the
                  > > children of Abraham, i.e., the Arabs and Sephardic Jews.
                  > >
                  >
                  > snip
                  >
                  > Bless Father...what a thought!!! "Stolen the inheritance"????? I will
                  > have to think on this as if one were to carry this line of thought out and
                  > apply to ourselves...Christian...then "we have stolen an inheritance
                  > too"!!!! Blood line stands over religious practice????? I just thought
                  the
                  > conversation by my friends a little racist on both parts but knew there
                  must
                  > be a history there somewhere. I will think on the above....but......seems
                  > to me..." the snake is eating it's tail here".
                  >
                  > Theodora
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Theodora
                  SNIP ... SNIP ... a ... woof woof !!!! :-) He is gaining ground everyday...the skunks and racoons run the other direction. :-) I know, the imformation
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 11, 2000
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                    SNIP
                    > But nonetheless, the Ashkenazi Jews are no more "jewish" or semitic, than
                    > you or I are Russian, ethnically speaking.

                    SNIP

                    >
                    > Father Andrew's information is "on the mark", and can be corroborated with
                    a
                    > number of scholastic sources.
                    >
                    > Now, whether we, as Orthodox Christians, have also "stolen the
                    > inheritance"... I don't know. I guess that's a topic for more enlightened
                    > minds then mine. :-)
                    >
                    > Say hello to everybody for me. And pet the T-Rex for me.

                    woof woof !!!! :-) He is gaining ground everyday...the skunks and
                    racoons run the other direction. :-)

                    I know, the imformation was good but a thought...how many of the Ashkenazi
                    Jews died in the death camps???? Does it make a difference???? I didn't
                    think it did when counting the number killed. You and I know that my Evang.
                    friend 's view is somewhat lopsided but I just can't get a hold on this
                    other....

                    It was just a thought.....one better left unthought I think.

                    Don't forget Conference...you should see the Parish Hall!

                    Theodora

                    PS T-Rex now has three news neighbors just like him.
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