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Between Two Ecumenisms

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  • Rev. John R. Shaw
    The bulletin speaks of common prayer , which can mean many things, including we have all been praying . This has become a standard expression, and by istelf
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 3, 2000
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      The bulletin speaks of "common prayer", which can mean many
      things, including "we have all been praying". This has become a standard
      expression, and by istelf cannot be used to make a case. I'm sure that if
      the 1927 gathering I spoke of had been asked, they would not have
      neglected to speak of such prayer--even if neither case involved any
      common *public services*. Nor is thee any reference that I spotted to
      "Orthodox churches being used" for heretical services.

      The statement from Patrirach Pavle is a translation of a
      translation: it was written in Serbian, then translated into Russian by
      those involved in the production of the MP newsletter; then into English,
      I believe, by Olga Mitrenina or Vlaimir Moss, and circulated by them and
      others, all of whom are eager to put an end to the friendly relations
      between ROCOR and the Serbs--though for various reasons.

      Thus we are caught between two ecumenisms: on the one hand, the
      Western ecumenical movement, generated originally by the Anglicans; and
      the other "ecumenism" that unites various and sundry people who try to
      keep the Orthodox faighting amongst themselves. The one ecumenism claims
      that nothing matters except being together; the other, that nothing
      matters except keeping others apart.

      To be Orthodox, it is not enough to be defined by what we hate: we
      must be defined by what we love.
      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
      > The bullitin reports not just "talks", but also engaging in "common
      > prayers." I don't know what specifically common prayers are--surely, they
      > didn't liturgize together -- but is even a little prayer with each other, being
      > the highest ranking members of their respective churches, a bit unwise...unless
      > they're trying to send a message of an ecumenical undertone?
      > Besides, apparantly Patriarch Pavle thinks we are "anti-canonical" and
      > worthy of "condemnation" according to Olga's posting of the Moscow Pat. news.
      > When are all the moderates on the list going to wake up? We are not
      > schismatics, but the "world Orthodox" are doing their best to make us obsolete
      > and meaningless. I'm willing to give the Serbs some benefit of the doubt, for
      > the sake of brotherly love, but it seems that they now don't really care about
      > "schismatic" ROCOR. What's your opinion anyone out there?
      > I think if we really have principle and stand for the Holy Traditions and
      > canons of the Church, we will have to accept being outcasts "worthy of
      > condemnation" by the Serbs and all the other Ecumenists. Hopefully, our old
      > calendar Church will grow and unite with the other true Orthodox left
      > Regarding baptism, people can defend the Chrismation only approach all
      > they want, and put a negative Panteleimonite slant to those of us who are
      > pro-baptism only, but no matter how you slice it, the Church has always viewed
      > triple immersion/Orthodox baptism as the only baptism and the normal way to
      > enter the Church. Pouring was used in extreme cases of sickness (clinic
      > baptism), but was corrected if the ill person lived. What became economia
      > should not be viewed as a variation of the norm. I am not saying that Orthodox
      > who came in Chrismated only are not Orthodox, please understand that. But,
      > what a loss for never having been baptised! St. John Chrysostom wrote a whole
      > treatise on it and describes it as "enlightenment"! Again, I see a trend with
      > the priests who were never baptised to not encourage baptism with converts. I
      > can't imagine the spiritual responsibility for this approach.
      > Nectarios Manzanero
      > St. John Maxivotich Mission, Austin, TX
      > --
      > Sincerely, An iPhone User
      > This mailing list's archives are at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
    • TeklaI@aol.com
      I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn t access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the St.
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 8, 2000
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        I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn't
        access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the
        St. John Maximovich mission, please?

      • Priest Seraphim Holland
        ... AUSTIN St. John Maximovitch Orthodox Mission Location: 6901 N. Lamar, Suite 111, Austin, TX, 78752 Mailing Address 4111 Everest Lane, Austin 78727 URL:
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 14, 2000
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          > I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn't
          > access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the
          > St. John Maximovich mission, please?


          St. John Maximovitch Orthodox Mission

          Location: 6901 N. Lamar, Suite 111, Austin, TX, 78752
          Mailing Address 4111 Everest Lane, Austin 78727
          URL: http://lonestar.texas.net/~kak/index.htm
          Services: 6:00 PM Saturday: Small Compline with Canon
          10:30 AM Sunday: Typica with Trapeza following
          Vigil and Divine Liturgy are served one Saturday a month, Please call for details and service times.
          Contact: Mary Kuykendall 512-339-7426 E-Mail kak@...
          Acting Rector: Priest Seraphim Holland (resides in Dallas area) 972/529-2754 Mobile: 214 336-3464 E-Mail seraphim@...
          I am Fr Seraphim Holland, an Orthodox Christian priest and pastor
          of St Nicholas Orthodox Church, in Dallas Texas
          (http://www.orthodox.net). I manage several mailing lists and two
          web sites, which try to provide useful and edifying information
          about Orthodox theology and practice, with a particular emphasis
          on the Holy Scriptures and the typicon. The following descriptions of mailing lists and out website may be of interest to you.

          May God bless you.

          St Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church website: http://www.orthodox.net

          The front page is updated almost every week.

          Spiritual Things: Eastern Orthodox Christian dogmas, doctrines, catechesis, lives of saints, holy fathers writings,orthopraxis, liturgi
          cal Services & trebnic prayers, troparia, icons, ecumenism info

          + Questions and Answers
          + Gospel Homilies
          + Various Articles
          + Julian calendar for this month
          + Redeeming the Time" Our semi-weekly journal
          + Trebnic prayers
          + Service Texts (HTML, printable, & for the PalmPilot too!)
          + Common troparia
          + Typicon Information Emphasizing usage in Russian Orthodoxy
          + Confession
          + An Exact Exposition by Saint John Damascene

          References: Things to buy, ROCOR parish & clergy directories, links galore, FAQs

          + New Valaam Trading Company Books, liturgical supplies, more
          + Clergy directory
          + Parish Directories
          + ROCOR bookstores, publishers, charities, etc. directory
          + Links - to ROCOR Parish Pages
          + More Links, organized in categories

          And more, including lots of information about us at St Nicholas.
          Orthodox Christian Mailing Lists:


          "10questions" is an email list with periodic messages containing
          "Ten Questions and Answers" about important aspects of Orthodox
          Christian Theology and practice, with a special emphasis on
          biblical texts.

          They are also available in a "Quiz" format at
          http://www.orthodox.net/questions. These topics have been used in
          weekly (usually lively!) catechetical discussions at St Nicholas, led by the author, Priest Seraphim Holland, pastor of St Nicholas Ort
          Church, Dallas, Texas, USA (seraphim@...) New questions and
          answers are posted regularly.

          To subscribe, send an empty message to

          List owner: 10questions-owner@egroups.com


          "gospelthoughts" are Orthodox Christian homilies about mostly the
          Sunday Gospel readings, sent out "almost" weekly. Most are from
          St Nicholas Orthodox Church, Dallas Texas, and are available at
          http://www.orthodox.net/sermons. Other edifying sermons about
          the Gospels may also be included.

          To subscribe, send an empty message to

          Group Moderator:


          "redeemingthetime" is the email version of "Redeeming the Time"
          an almost weekly "spiritual journal", published in booklet form, via
          email, and on the web (http://www.orthodox.net/redeeming), from St
          Nicholas Orthodox Church, Dallas, TX, USA.

          It concentrates on the current Sunday, and the
          upcoming week,
          + Catechetical material used in classes at St
          + Lives of saints
          + Homilies and sayings of the Fathers
          + Explanations of various things
          + Commentary about scripture readings
          + Local news and upcoming events at St Nicholas
          + Other news of interest to Orthodox Christians
          and especially those in the Russian Orthodox
          Church Abroad.

          To subscribe, send an empty message to

          List Owner:

          Full HTML Archive at


          "Ustav" facilitates email discussion, questions, commentary and
          teaching concerning the traditional Orthodox Christian typicon and
          music. The Russian word "ustav" means typicon, and indicates that
          our discussion will be slanted towards the Russian Orthodox
          typicon and music, as practiced in the Russian Orthodox Church
          Outside of Russia (http://www.rocor.org), but all other traditional
          usages may also be discussed.

          ROCOR uses the church calendar (the so called "Julian", or "Old"
          calendar), and discussion will generally be assumed to be
          involving this calendar.

          Those who follow the "New Calendar" or are not Orthodox
          Christians are welcome to participate, but this list is not intended to be a debate forum to argue about calendars, as, for tradition
          al Orthodox, this issue is closed. Other usages from non Orthodox should not be presented, except for occasional comparison purposes.

          In general, this list is for traditional Orthodox Christians who love the church and it's typicon, and want to learn more about it, an
          d help others to learn about it, or anyone who wishes to learn about the beauty and theological profundity of Orthodox Christian wor
          ship and music.

          The most common and preferred language, understandable to the
          vast majority, will be English. Other languages may be used,
          especially Russian. Group Moderator: ustav-owner@egroups.com
          (Priest Seraphim Holland, St Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church,
          Dallas, TX http://www.orthodox.net )

          To subscribe, send an empty message to ustav-subscribe@egroups.com

          Priest Seraphim Holland St Nicholas Orthodox Church, Dallas, Texas, USA
          seraphim@... Ph:972/529-2754 MOBILE & VOICE MAIL 214 336-3464
          FAX: 603/908-2408 Home Address: 2102 Summit, McKinney, TX 75070, USA
          WEBMASTER FOR: St Nicholas Home Page - http://www.orthodox.net
          Official ROCOR Page - http://www.rocor.org
          10 questions (many subjects) http://www.orthodox.net/questions
          Thoughts on the Sunday gospels http://www.orthodox.net/sermons
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