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Re: [orthodox-synod] Baptism and Serbs(formerly Titanic...

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  • rjmanz
    The bullitin reports not just talks , but also engaging in common prayers. I don t know what specifically common prayers are--surely, they didn t liturgize
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 2, 2000
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      The bullitin reports not just "talks", but also engaging in "common
      prayers." I don't know what specifically common prayers are--surely, they
      didn't liturgize together -- but is even a little prayer with each other, being
      the highest ranking members of their respective churches, a bit unwise...unless
      they're trying to send a message of an ecumenical undertone?
      Besides, apparantly Patriarch Pavle thinks we are "anti-canonical" and
      worthy of "condemnation" according to Olga's posting of the Moscow Pat. news.
      When are all the moderates on the list going to wake up? We are not
      schismatics, but the "world Orthodox" are doing their best to make us obsolete
      and meaningless. I'm willing to give the Serbs some benefit of the doubt, for
      the sake of brotherly love, but it seems that they now don't really care about
      "schismatic" ROCOR. What's your opinion anyone out there?
      I think if we really have principle and stand for the Holy Traditions and
      canons of the Church, we will have to accept being outcasts "worthy of
      condemnation" by the Serbs and all the other Ecumenists. Hopefully, our old
      calendar Church will grow and unite with the other true Orthodox left

      Regarding baptism, people can defend the Chrismation only approach all
      they want, and put a negative Panteleimonite slant to those of us who are
      pro-baptism only, but no matter how you slice it, the Church has always viewed
      triple immersion/Orthodox baptism as the only baptism and the normal way to
      enter the Church. Pouring was used in extreme cases of sickness (clinic
      baptism), but was corrected if the ill person lived. What became economia
      should not be viewed as a variation of the norm. I am not saying that Orthodox
      who came in Chrismated only are not Orthodox, please understand that. But,
      what a loss for never having been baptised! St. John Chrysostom wrote a whole
      treatise on it and describes it as "enlightenment"! Again, I see a trend with
      the priests who were never baptised to not encourage baptism with converts. I
      can't imagine the spiritual responsibility for this approach.

      Nectarios Manzanero
      St. John Maxivotich Mission, Austin, TX
      --
      Sincerely, An iPhone User
    • Rev. John R. Shaw
      The bulletin speaks of common prayer , which can mean many things, including we have all been praying . This has become a standard expression, and by istelf
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 3, 2000
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        The bulletin speaks of "common prayer", which can mean many
        things, including "we have all been praying". This has become a standard
        expression, and by istelf cannot be used to make a case. I'm sure that if
        the 1927 gathering I spoke of had been asked, they would not have
        neglected to speak of such prayer--even if neither case involved any
        common *public services*. Nor is thee any reference that I spotted to
        "Orthodox churches being used" for heretical services.

        The statement from Patrirach Pavle is a translation of a
        translation: it was written in Serbian, then translated into Russian by
        those involved in the production of the MP newsletter; then into English,
        I believe, by Olga Mitrenina or Vlaimir Moss, and circulated by them and
        others, all of whom are eager to put an end to the friendly relations
        between ROCOR and the Serbs--though for various reasons.

        Thus we are caught between two ecumenisms: on the one hand, the
        Western ecumenical movement, generated originally by the Anglicans; and
        the other "ecumenism" that unites various and sundry people who try to
        keep the Orthodox faighting amongst themselves. The one ecumenism claims
        that nothing matters except being together; the other, that nothing
        matters except keeping others apart.

        To be Orthodox, it is not enough to be defined by what we hate: we
        must be defined by what we love.
        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
        > The bullitin reports not just "talks", but also engaging in "common
        > prayers." I don't know what specifically common prayers are--surely, they
        > didn't liturgize together -- but is even a little prayer with each other, being
        > the highest ranking members of their respective churches, a bit unwise...unless
        > they're trying to send a message of an ecumenical undertone?
        > Besides, apparantly Patriarch Pavle thinks we are "anti-canonical" and
        > worthy of "condemnation" according to Olga's posting of the Moscow Pat. news.
        > When are all the moderates on the list going to wake up? We are not
        > schismatics, but the "world Orthodox" are doing their best to make us obsolete
        > and meaningless. I'm willing to give the Serbs some benefit of the doubt, for
        > the sake of brotherly love, but it seems that they now don't really care about
        > "schismatic" ROCOR. What's your opinion anyone out there?
        > I think if we really have principle and stand for the Holy Traditions and
        > canons of the Church, we will have to accept being outcasts "worthy of
        > condemnation" by the Serbs and all the other Ecumenists. Hopefully, our old
        > calendar Church will grow and unite with the other true Orthodox left
        >
        > Regarding baptism, people can defend the Chrismation only approach all
        > they want, and put a negative Panteleimonite slant to those of us who are
        > pro-baptism only, but no matter how you slice it, the Church has always viewed
        > triple immersion/Orthodox baptism as the only baptism and the normal way to
        > enter the Church. Pouring was used in extreme cases of sickness (clinic
        > baptism), but was corrected if the ill person lived. What became economia
        > should not be viewed as a variation of the norm. I am not saying that Orthodox
        > who came in Chrismated only are not Orthodox, please understand that. But,
        > what a loss for never having been baptised! St. John Chrysostom wrote a whole
        > treatise on it and describes it as "enlightenment"! Again, I see a trend with
        > the priests who were never baptised to not encourage baptism with converts. I
        > can't imagine the spiritual responsibility for this approach.
        >
        > Nectarios Manzanero
        > St. John Maxivotich Mission, Austin, TX
        > --
        > Sincerely, An iPhone User
        >
        >
        >
        > This mailing list's archives are at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >
      • TeklaI@aol.com
        I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn t access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the St.
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 8, 2000
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          I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn't
          access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the
          St. John Maximovich mission, please?

          Elizabeth
        • Priest Seraphim Holland
          ... AUSTIN St. John Maximovitch Orthodox Mission Location: 6901 N. Lamar, Suite 111, Austin, TX, 78752 Mailing Address 4111 Everest Lane, Austin 78727 URL:
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 14, 2000
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            > I was trying to get the address for the mission in Austin,TX, but couldn't
            > access it for some reason (technical). Could you e-mail me the address of the
            > St. John Maximovich mission, please?

            AUSTIN

            St. John Maximovitch Orthodox Mission

            Location: 6901 N. Lamar, Suite 111, Austin, TX, 78752
            Mailing Address 4111 Everest Lane, Austin 78727
            URL: http://lonestar.texas.net/~kak/index.htm
            Services: 6:00 PM Saturday: Small Compline with Canon
            10:30 AM Sunday: Typica with Trapeza following
            Vigil and Divine Liturgy are served one Saturday a month, Please call for details and service times.
            Contact: Mary Kuykendall 512-339-7426 E-Mail kak@...
            Acting Rector: Priest Seraphim Holland (resides in Dallas area) 972/529-2754 Mobile: 214 336-3464 E-Mail seraphim@...
            -----
            I am Fr Seraphim Holland, an Orthodox Christian priest and pastor
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            "10questions" is an email list with periodic messages containing
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            They are also available in a "Quiz" format at
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