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Troparia for Fathers of First Six Ecumenical Councils and Damnation

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  • Daniel Lieuwen
    What really stuck out this weekend was one of the troparia which we sung last night and this morning: The mindless Arius, showing himself to be a servant of a
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 31, 2000
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      What really stuck out this weekend was one of the troparia which we sung
      last night and this morning:

      The mindless Arius, showing himself to be a servant of a created being,
      and Macedonius, likewise revealed as abominable,
      are equally tormented in the fire of Gehenna with the Hellenes.

      There are very few direct statements in the liturgical texts about who is in
      hell,
      although many more in heaven (all the canonized saints are by virtue of
      their
      canonization known to be in heaven--they would not have been canonized
      otherwise). This is only the second such troparia that I know of. The
      other
      says that Arius is tormented with the Hagarenes. Note that while classes of
      people are mentioned, individuals (other than Arius and Macedonius) are
      not. I do not know of any other individuals specifically listed among the
      damned.
      This shows how extraordinarily seriously the church took these heresies that
      attacked
      the divinity of the Son and the Spirit. Even great persecuters are not
      mentioned
      liturgically. I heard that an iconographer (in the free world)
      put Stalin in his depiction of hell--and was
      told he must remove it because we do not know who is in hell. (Stalin
      certainly
      seems likely, even if we cannot say with certainty, I must say).

      Am I missing other cases of people liturgically mentioned as in
      Gehenna?

      Under the mercy,

      Daniel
    • Daniel Lieuwen
      ... I do not know of any liturgical texts which make statements about Judas being in hell, only Arius and Macedonius. Thus, I am not sure what this is
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 1, 2000
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        >There is, therefore, a sense in which Judas was fully active in the plan of
        >salvation, a man whose "work" (however contemptable, in human terms) is no
        >worse than that of the person whom Jesus healed of demons. Jesus said to
        >him: "See that you sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."
        >
        >And what did the man do? He went out and told the Jewish leaders it was
        >Jesus who had healed him. Thus, he did a sinful thing, and, presumably, "a
        >worse thing" came upon him.
        >
        >Maybe, at the last, even Satan can repent?

        I do not know of any liturgical texts which make statements about
        Judas being in hell, only Arius and Macedonius. Thus, I am not
        sure what this is responding too.

        I like what Bp. Kallistos had to say (paraphrased): it is heresy to
        assert that everyone will be reconciled to God in the end. However,
        we may hope that it will be so. Human freedom means that we cannot
        assert that everyone will be freed from hell---because that implies
        that all must come to love Love. We may hope it, but freedom means
        that we cannot know that this will occur.

        By the way, on another list, someone asked me where the troparia about
        Arius being punished with the Hagarenes appears. Made a quick pass over
        the canon at Matins in the Pentecostarion for the Fathers and didn't
        find it. Does anyone remember where it is?

        Under the mercy,

        Daniel
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