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Re: [orthodox-synod] The Incarnation in Popular Culture

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  • Ernest O'Dell
    Dear Patrick, Please understand, I am not bashing you. You don t have to apologize for what you perceive as cross-posting if you are the originator of the
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 6, 2000
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      Dear Patrick,

      Please understand, I am not "bashing" you. You don't have to apologize for
      what you perceive as "cross-posting" if you are the originator of the
      question/post/query. If I'm mistaken on that point of "netiquette", then
      perhaps someone far wiser than myself can illucidate me. :-)

      Yes, clearly both of these are clearly heretical, as you well stated.
      However, the perceptive comment you might receive may well be less than what
      you thought. If you spent more time in prayer and reading of Patristic
      writings, you wouldn't need any "perceptive comment" on the views of Osborne
      and Rice; for you would recognize it (almost) instantly for what it is: a
      very disturbing commentary on how far our society has strayed away from God.

      Mind you, I'm not saying that you don't spend time in prayer and the reading
      of the Patristic writings, I only use it as an example. Perhaps a poor one
      from one who doesn't express himself well in the written medium, but only
      the "perceptive comment" that you initially solicited.

      I am a poor choice to offer this, but since I saw your message, I thought it
      safe enough to go ahead and reply. Perhaps those who know me better would
      be better fitted to offer their insights into these troubling passages. I,
      myself, can only see it as a malady, or perhaps, a symptom, of our society.

      Living in solitude does this to me occasionally... like answering certain
      queries when I should be silent. :-) But, alas, I must go back to reading
      some of my own suggestions.

      Please forgive. Not trying to offend. Just offering a perception that was
      solicited.

      O anaxios,

      Andreas



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <pwrbarrett@...>
      To: <orthodox-tradition@egroups.com>; <true-orthodox@egroups.com>;
      <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 4:36 PM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] The Incarnation in Popular Culture


      > I apologize for cross-posting this. In addition, somebody
      > is sure to point out that I could spend my time better.
      > But I'd like to see what kind of comments y'all have on
      > how the Incarnation is viewed in popular culture, and I
      > have two examples. The first basically denies (or seems
      > ignorant of) the Incarnation; the second implies that it
      > doesn't matter. Both represent heretical views; I know
      > that. But I'd like to know if anyone has any insights
      > beyond pointing out the heretical nature of these views.
      >
      > Let me be clear that I'm not advocating these points of
      > view. I'm just looking for some perceptive comment on them.
      >
      > * * * * * * *
      >
      > The first is the song "One of Us," by Joan Osborne. It
      > says, in part:
      >
      > what if God was one of us?
      > just a slob like one of us?
      > just a stranger on the bus
      > trying to make his way home?
      >
      > if God had a face, what would it look like?
      > and would you want to see
      > if seeing meant that you would have to believe
      > in things like heaven and in jesus
      > and the saints and all the prophets?
      >
      > * * * * * * *
      >
      > The second is "Memnoch the Devil," by Anne Rice.
      > Understand that this novel denies the full humanity
      > of our Savior. She has Him say:
      >
      > "I am God Incarnate. How could I have a human soul?
      > What is important is that I will remain in this body as
      > it is tortured and slain; and my death will be evidence
      > of my Love for those whom I have created and allowed
      > to suffer so much. I will share their pain and know their
      > pain."
      >
      > He also says that at times He even allowed Himself to
      > forget He was God, but at the time He has this conversation
      > with the devil, He's fully aware of His divinity:
      >
      > "You've known all along that you were God. You mentioned
      > times when you thought you were mad or almost forgot,
      > but those were brief! Too brief! And now as you plot your
      > death, you know Who you are and you won't forget it, will you?"
      >
      > "No, I won't. I must be the Son of God Incarnate to fulfill my
      > ministry, to work my miracles, of course. That's the whole
      > point."
      >
      > "Then, Lord, you don't know what it means to be flesh!"
      >
      > * * * * * * *
      >
      > Comments?
      >
      > Patrick Barrett
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
      > http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/9/_/4386/_/962919391/
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > This mailing list's archives are at
      http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • arescan@email.com
      He who sees me sees the Father! (+Emanuel, the unworthy)
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 6, 2000
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        He who sees me sees the Father!

        (+Emanuel, the unworthy)


        > ** Original Subject: [orthodox-synod] The Incarnation in Popular Culture
        > ** Original Sender: pwrbarrett@...
        > ** Original Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:36:41 -0400 (EDT)

        > ** Original Message follows...

        >
        > I apologize for cross-posting this. In addition, somebody
        > is sure to point out that I could spend my time better.
        > But I'd like to see what kind of comments y'all have on
        > how the Incarnation is viewed in popular culture, and I
        > have two examples. The first basically denies (or seems
        > ignorant of) the Incarnation; the second implies that it
        > doesn't matter. Both represent heretical views; I know
        > that. But I'd like to know if anyone has any insights
        > beyond pointing out the heretical nature of these views.
        >
        > Let me be clear that I'm not advocating these points of
        > view. I'm just looking for some perceptive comment on them.
        >
        > * * * * * * *
        >
        > The first is the song "One of Us," by Joan Osborne. It
        > says, in part:
        >
        > what if God was one of us?
        > just a slob like one of us?
        > just a stranger on the bus
        > trying to make his way home?
        >
        > if God had a face, what would it look like?
        > and would you want to see
        > if seeing meant that you would have to believe
        > in things like heaven and in jesus
        > and the saints and all the prophets?
        >
        > * * * * * * *
        >
        > The second is "Memnoch the Devil," by Anne Rice.
        > Understand that this novel denies the full humanity
        > of our Savior. She has Him say:
        >
        > "I am God Incarnate. How could I have a human soul?
        > What is important is that I will remain in this body as
        > it is tortured and slain; and my death will be evidence
        > of my Love for those whom I have created and allowed
        > to suffer so much. I will share their pain and know their
        > pain."
        >
        > He also says that at times He even allowed Himself to
        > forget He was God, but at the time He has this conversation
        > with the devil, He's fully aware of His divinity:
        >
        > "You've known all along that you were God. You mentioned
        > times when you thought you were mad or almost forgot,
        > but those were brief! Too brief! And now as you plot your
        > death, you know Who you are and you won't forget it, will you?"
        >
        > "No, I won't. I must be the Son of God Incarnate to fulfill my
        > ministry, to work my miracles, of course. That's the whole
        > point."
        >
        > "Then, Lord, you don't know what it means to be flesh!"
        >
        > * * * * * * *
        >
        > Comments?
        >
        > Patrick Barrett
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
        > http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/9/_/4386/_/962919391/
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > This mailing list's archives are at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        >


        >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **

        >
      • LazarusDos@webtv.net
        For the high priest we have [Jesus] is not incapable of feeling our weaknesses with us, but has been put to the test in exactly the same way as ourselves,
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 6, 2000
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          "For the high priest we have [Jesus] is not incapable of feeling our
          weaknesses with us, but has been put to the test in exactly the same way
          as ourselves, apart from sin. Let us, then, have no fear in approaching
          the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace when we are in
          need of help. "-Hebrews 4:15-16.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sandra Thompson
          Why? ... http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 6, 2000
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            Why?
            > But I'd like to see what kind of comments y'all have on
            > how the Incarnation is viewed in popular culture, and I
            > have two examples. The first basically denies (or seems
            > ignorant of) the Incarnation; the second implies that it
            > doesn't matter. Both represent heretical views; I know
            > that. But I'd like to know if anyone has any insights
            > beyond pointing out the heretical nature of these views.
            > and the saints and all the prophets?

            > The second is "Memnoch the Devil," by Anne Rice.
            > Understand that this novel denies the full humanity
            > of our Savior. She has Him say:
            >
            > "I am God Incarnate. How could I have a human soul?
            > What is important is that I will remain in this body as
            > it is tortured and slain; and my death will be evidence
            > of my Love for those whom I have created and allowed
            > to suffer so much. I will share their pain and know their
            > pain."
            >
            > He also says that at times He even allowed Himself to
            > forget He was God, but at the time He has this conversation
            > with the devil, He's fully aware of His divinity:
            >
            > "You've known all along that you were God. You mentioned
            > times when you thought you were mad or almost forgot,
            > but those were brief! Too brief! And now as you plot your
            > death, you know Who you are and you won't forget it, will you?"
            >
            > "No, I won't. I must be the Son of God Incarnate to fulfill my
            > ministry, to work my miracles, of course. That's the whole
            > point."
            >
            > "Then, Lord, you don't know what it means to be flesh!"
            >
            > * * * * * * *
            >
            > Comments?
            >
            > Patrick Barrett
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
            > http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/9/_/4386/_/962919391/
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > This mailing list's archives are at
            http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
            >
            >
          • pwrbarrett@aol.com
            In a message dated 7/6/2000 9:28:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sandra@geckonet.net writes: Because I m curious to see if anybody else s opinion
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 6, 2000
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              In a message dated 7/6/2000 9:28:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              sandra@... writes:

              << Why? >>

              Because I'm curious to see if anybody else's opinion
              agrees with mine. I think these examples reveal a
              debased view of humanity.

              C.G. Jung said, "About a third of my cases are suffering
              from no clinically definable neurosis, but from the
              senselessness and emptiness of their lives. It seems
              to me, however, that this can well be described as the
              general neurosis of our time."

              These examples of popular culture seem to me to
              indicate that this "general neurosis of our time" has
              become so widespread that some people now see
              it as a given of the human condition. There can be
              no Incarnation because without this senselessness,
              without despair, one can't be fully human. I think
              it's rather shocking if our culture has become so
              debased that we now see this kind of senselessness
              and emptiness as normal.

              The lyrics, "What if God was ... just a slob like one
              of us" reveal, it seems to me, a lot about how we
              look at ourselves and the world.

              I was wondering if anyone else had the same
              impression.

              Patrick
            • LJames6034@aol.com
              My maternal grandfather was a mine superintendent. In those days, the superintendent was Father Figure, as well as employer. Once, and I only know this story
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 9, 2000
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                My maternal grandfather was a mine superintendent. In those days, the
                superintendent was Father Figure, as well as employer.

                Once, and I only know this story via word-of-mouth, via my mother, one of
                the men came running to my grandfather and said to him: "Some quickly, my
                son is bleeding to death."

                My grandfather paused for a moment and said: "Go home, the bleeding has
                stopped."

                Was it a miracle?

                I was supposed to believe it was. How else could one explain such a thing?
                Hence, it is not necessarily for one to God Incarnate to do such things. One
                has only to believe.

                As Jesus said: "Greater things than these shall you do."

                But, all the more reason to suppose that one who is flesh and blood can, in
                fact, know what it is like to do such things, and NOT be God.

                ALJJ+
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