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[orthodox-synod] Re: Die Musik

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  • TALLSCAPES@aol.com
    In a message dated 99-06-07 18:42:31 EDT, Fr. Steven wrote: Evlogeite! Now that you have
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 7, 1999
      In a message dated 99-06-07 18:42:31 EDT, Fr. Steven wrote:

      << in some quarters efforts are being made to revive the old chants.>>

      Evlogeite!
      Now that you have tantalized with this statement, please say more.
      Peter Brandt-Sorheim

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    • Steven Ritter
      Its taking place all over. At Ascension monastery in Resaca they often use the plain chants, at Jordanville they occasionally use them. There has been a
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 7, 1999
        Its taking place all over. At Ascension monastery in Resaca they often use
        the plain chants, at Jordanville they occasionally use them. There has been
        a resurgence in the use of "early" harmonizations also, three and two part
        in some instances, with the use of "dissonant" harmonies, i.e. major and
        minor seconds, etc. There are many recordings now also that are displaying
        this early chant. Most people still fell uncomfortable with it, because they
        are so used to our operatic trivia that has been perpetrated as chant for so
        long. But hopefully, this will change.

        Fr. Steven

        TALLSCAPES@... wrote:

        > In a message dated 99-06-07 18:42:31 EDT, Fr. Steven wrote:
        >
        > << in some quarters efforts are being made to revive the old chants.>>
        >
        > Evlogeite!
        > Now that you have tantalized with this statement, please say more.
        > Peter Brandt-Sorheim
        >
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      • LJames6034@aol.com
        There s a form of convert bashing going on. That won t do. This is a situation analogous to that one I addressed in The NY Review of Books when the
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 8, 1999
          There's a form of "convert bashing" going on. That won't do.

          This is a situation analogous to that one I addressed in The NY Review of
          Books when the Countess Tolstoy, asserted that "worthy people," were not
          canonized, while the Tsar and the Royal Family were. I answered that
          30,000 others were "glorified," with Tsar Nicholas and his family.
          "Surely," I said, "among so many, there must be one or two whom Ms. Tolstoya
          would regard as 'worthy'?"

          Surely, among so many converts to Orthodoxy (roughly one-third of the clergy
          in the Antiochian Archdiocese used to be Episcopal ministers), there must be
          one of two of us who are not so enthralled by Russian culture that we have
          lost our senses? Huh?

          As I have observed on this List before: Perhaps we should restrict opinion
          and freedom of expression only to those of us who are the lineal descendants
          of the Holy Great Prince Vladimir, Equal of the Holy Apostles? Only we
          should have a right to an opinion on anything. The rest of you are parvenus.

          But, seriously (I say that for you literalists): It is wrong, brothers and
          sisters, to suppose that any people forms a lump. Logically, that has to
          include converts, I think. Some of us could read and write, before we
          converted to Orthodoxy. We still can.

          But, thank you for your concern for our spiritual well-being. Pray for us,
          that we may become as humble and unassuming as some of you!


          Father Andrew

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        • Steven Ritter
          ... This is, of course, the great mystery. On the one hand, I would think that with all of the carefulness we pass on the faith with, that Byzantine Chant
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 8, 1999
            don wiley wrote:

            >
            > Well and good. But, when Sts Cyrill and Methodios ventured into the Slavic
            > culture, what did they do? (It is an honest question - seeking information.)
            >
            > I know that they had to create had to create an alphabet so that the Divine
            > Services could be written into the language of the Slavs. Beyond that, I
            > know nothing, but I wonder - since they did not try to teach them the
            > Greek, did they insist on Byzantine chant? Or did they adopt the familiar
            > local melodies to the Orthodox hymns?
            >

            This is, of course, the great mystery. On the one hand, I would think that with all of the
            carefulness we pass on the faith with, that Byzantine Chant would have been passed on
            also, as it was in the other Slavic countries (and keep in mind that these Slavic
            countries never developed it into the same fine art the Greeks did--but they did retain
            the basic skeleton of the chant). But Russia may very well have been an exception, indeed
            was to a certain extent. The early Bulgarian singers that were brought into Russia had
            already used their not inconsiderable genius to match the Byzantine melodies to Slavonic.
            In this process, the original melodies, while still churchly and beautiful, also became
            modified, in some cases beyond recognition.

            While the Bulgarians kept closely to the Byzantine systen of echoi, the Russians never, as
            far as has been determined, ever adopted this system, substituting instead a system of
            melodic fragments or melodies, which we today know as the Znamenny chant. Early on this
            notation still closely modeled Byzantine notation, but changed in a relatively short time.
            The Znamenny was very difficult to realize, and required a specialist's skills not much
            different from the practitioner of Byzantine chant. Because of this, it later used a much
            simpler notation, eliminating embellishments that so distinguished the early chant. So we
            see that Russian chant did indeed have Byzantine roots, but took a separate route not long
            after being introduced. To me , real Russian music will always be the Znamenny chant, and
            the harmonized cotton candy later introduced has very little to do with the Byzantine
            (i.e. Orthodox) ethos of passionlessness and prayer. Yet God, as He so often does, puts up
            with our weaknesses, as He has in iconography and theology at various times in thes
            past--indeed, the present also.

            in Christ,
            Fr. Steven


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          • don wiley
            Father Steven Ritter wrote: snip to the end ... chants, more able to invoke the passionless state the fathers talk about, and abandon the emotion-laden music
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 8, 1999
              Father Steven Ritter wrote:

              snip to the end

              > But then again, I believe the Church should go back to its ancient
              chants, >more able to invoke the passionless state the fathers talk about,
              and abandon >the emotion-laden music that has become the norm. I appreciate
              the beauty of >many of our western-influenced compositions, but I also
              appreciate Mozart, and >do not see the difference in the emotions they both
              invoke.


              I heard Dr Constantine Cavarnos speak the same thing, on a tape of an
              address to the Greek Church in Atlanta a couple of years ago. From perhaps
              failing memory, he was speaking to "What's are the Problems which The
              Orthodox Church faces in America today?" And as I recall, spoke to:

              --Ecumenism

              --Secularism

              ---Calendar

              And, almost as an afterthought, he spoke of the music. To the effect that
              the polyphony which had become common was inimical to true Orthodox
              worship. Well, I hated to hear that, because I like the Russian music.
              But, I also like a lot of things which may not be good for me.

              Father wrote:

              > However, most people are not concerned about this issue, and converts in
              >particular are often overwhelmed by the pretty Church music, so I would
              venture that it is here to stay, though in some quarters efforts are being
              made to revive the old chants.
              >
              Well and good. But, when Sts Cyrill and Methodios ventured into the Slavic
              culture, what did they do? (It is an honest question - seeking information.)

              I know that they had to create had to create an alphabet so that the Divine
              Services could be written into the language of the Slavs. Beyond that, I
              know nothing, but I wonder - since they did not try to teach them the
              Greek, did they insist on Byzantine chant? Or did they adopt the familiar
              local melodies to the Orthodox hymns?

              Thank you Father Steven, for your reply.

              Reader Athanasius
              St Nicholas - Fletcher, North Carolina


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            • Oleg Reoutt
              Gee, maybe you just have to be Russian to really appreciate Russian Orthodox music. From the joy at Easter or at a wedding to the majesty during the various
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 10, 1999
                Gee, maybe you just have to be Russian to really appreciate Russian
                Orthodox music. From the joy at Easter or at a wedding to the majesty
                during the various feasts and the deeply touching passion week or
                funeral singing, give me Arhangelsky, Chesnokov, Kastalsky, Grechaninov,
                Turchaninov, Smolensky, Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky, Soloviev, Lvovsky,
                Lomakin, Allemanov, Ippolitov, Rimsky, Nikolsky, Zinoviev, Vinogradov,
                Lvov and countless others anytime.
                Oleg

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              • LJames6034@aol.com
                If one has to be Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music, does that mean one has to be Welsh in order to enjoy poetry? Just asking. Father Andrew ...
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 10, 1999
                  If one has to be Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music, does that mean one
                  has to be Welsh in order to enjoy poetry?

                  Just asking.


                  Father Andrew

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                • Oleg Reoutt
                  Was Pushkin (born June 6th 1799) Welsh? Oleg ... eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 10, 1999
                    Was Pushkin (born June 6th 1799) Welsh?
                    Oleg

                    LJames6034@... wrote:
                    >
                    > If one has to be Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music, does that mean one
                    > has to be Welsh in order to enjoy poetry?
                    >
                    > Just asking.
                    >
                    > Father Andrew
                    >
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                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                    Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when L vov s music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral of the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                      Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when
                      L'vov's music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral
                      of the Dormition, in the Kremlin), the worshippers, who had been
                      accustomed to going there specially to hear Znamenny chant, were so
                      offended that many walked out of the church.
                      (On weekdays, the services in that cathedral continued to be in
                      unison Znamenny chant until the Bolsheviks closed the Kremlin churches).
                      You have named many famous composers, but remember that, had it
                      not been for the older liturgical music of the Russian Church, they would
                      have had nowhere to start from...

                      On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Oleg Reoutt wrote:

                      > Gee, maybe you just have to be Russian to really appreciate Russian
                      > Orthodox music. From the joy at Easter or at a wedding to the majesty
                      > during the various feasts and the deeply touching passion week or
                      > funeral singing, give me Arhangelsky, Chesnokov, Kastalsky, Grechaninov,
                      > Turchaninov, Smolensky, Bortniansky, Tchaikovsky, Soloviev, Lvovsky,
                      > Lomakin, Allemanov, Ippolitov, Rimsky, Nikolsky, Zinoviev, Vinogradov,
                      > Lvov and countless others anytime.
                      > Oleg
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                    • Rev. John R. Shaw
                      Or rather Greek to enjoy poetry-- poem being their word. But then, I never quite forgot hearing the opinion somewhere, when I was a child, that poetry was
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                        Or rather Greek to enjoy poetry--"poem" being their word.
                        But then, I never quite forgot hearing the opinion somewhere, when
                        I was a child, that "poetry" was derived from the name of the American
                        lyricist Edgar Allan Poe...

                        On Thu, 10 Jun 1999 LJames6034@... wrote:

                        > If one has to be Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music, does that mean one
                        > has to be Welsh in order to enjoy poetry?
                        >
                        > Just asking.
                        >
                        >
                        > Father Andrew
                        >
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                      • LJames6034@aol.com
                        Oleg, I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I say is not intended to be taken literally. I was intending to point out a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                          Oleg,

                          I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I
                          say is not intended to be taken literally.

                          I was intending to point out a certain ethnocentricism inherent in your
                          notion that one has to be born Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music.

                          Would you make the same (rather strange) requirement for all Russian music,
                          or just that of the Russian Church?

                          Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
                          Spring"?


                          I don't thnink so!


                          Father Andrew

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                        • LJames6034@aol.com
                          Thank you, Father John, That was very funny. My thought, as you doubtless know, was intended to aim at phyletism and ethnocentricism, which seem to me to be
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                            Thank you, Father John,

                            That was very funny.

                            My thought, as you doubtless know, was intended to aim at phyletism and
                            ethnocentricism, which seem to me to be manifestations of a form of mental
                            illness.

                            Father Andrew

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                          • Oleg Reoutt
                            ... Dear Father John, what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to, walk out of the church, prove? I love Znamennyj Chant: we often
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                              "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
                              >
                              > Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when
                              > L'vov's music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral
                              > of the Dormition, in the Kremlin), the worshippers, who had been
                              > accustomed to going there specially to hear Znamenny chant, were so
                              > offended that many walked out of the church.

                              Dear Father John,
                              what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to,
                              walk out of the church, prove?
                              I love Znamennyj Chant: we often use it to sing "Velichanie", prokimen
                              and "Exapostilarion" on feast days. But how about Kievan chant (not the
                              Bahmetev simplified)? Beautiful. How about Soloviev's Passion Week from
                              the Cerkovno Pevcheskij Sbornik (St Petersburg 1904)? etc...

                              >> You have named many famous composers, but remember that, had it
                              > not been for the older liturgical music of the Russian Church, they would
                              > have had nowhere to start from...

                              But is'nt that the way it normally happens? Should today's composer give
                              up because everything has already been accomplished?

                              Oleg

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                            • Oleg Reoutt
                              ... Dear Father Andrew, Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky s church music being weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 11, 1999
                                LJames6034@... wrote:
                                >
                                > Oleg,
                                >
                                > I generally point out for the sake of the literalists, that much of what I
                                > say is not intended to be taken literally.
                                >
                                > I was intending to point out a certain ethnocentricism inherent in your
                                > notion that one has to be born Russian to enjoy Russian Orthodox music.

                                Dear Father Andrew,
                                Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky's church music being
                                weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the exact
                                words, but my recollection) made by posters with non-Russian names, I
                                was moved to a tongue in cheek reply. Beethoven is not Russian, but his
                                music is fantastic. The same holds for Mozart, Bizet, Dvorak to name a
                                few.

                                >> Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
                                > Spring"?

                                Now Stravinsky is often difficult for me. Have you heard his "Our
                                Father"?

                                I know that you know that Pushkin is not Welsh.

                                Oleg

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                              • LJames6034@aol.com
                                If Stravinsky wrote an Our Father, I have never heard it. I confess that, as I get older, Stravinsky becomes less and less difficult to hear. I do not know
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                  If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.

                                  I confess that, as I get older, Stravinsky becomes less and less difficult to
                                  hear.

                                  I do not know what that means: It could be that one's hearing tends to
                                  deteriorate with age!

                                  Yes, I knew you would know I know Pushkin. Why, come to think of it, I have
                                  even been to Pushkin (Tsarkoe Selo), where the Summer Palace has been
                                  meticulously rebuilt, following the German visit.

                                  Try as they might, the communists were never able to co-opt Pushkin.

                                  Father Andrew

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                                • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                  Perhaps we are arguing at cross-purposes. If you include the ancient music along with the composers who reworked it, then we are on the same wavelength... ...
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                    Perhaps we are arguing at cross-purposes. If you include the ancient music
                                    along with the composers who reworked it, then we are on the same
                                    wavelength...

                                    On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, Oleg Reoutt wrote:

                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Rev. John R. Shaw" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Be that as it may, it is a matter of history that in 1840 or so, when
                                    > > L'vov's music was first sung in the Moscow Uspensky cathedral (cathedral
                                    > > of the Dormition, in the Kremlin), the worshippers, who had been
                                    > > accustomed to going there specially to hear Znamenny chant, were so
                                    > > offended that many walked out of the church.
                                    >
                                    > Dear Father John,
                                    > what does the fact that people, hearing something they were not used to,
                                    > walk out of the church, prove?
                                    > I love Znamennyj Chant: we often use it to sing "Velichanie", prokimen
                                    > and "Exapostilarion" on feast days. But how about Kievan chant (not the
                                    > Bahmetev simplified)? Beautiful. How about Soloviev's Passion Week from
                                    > the Cerkovno Pevcheskij Sbornik (St Petersburg 1904)? etc...
                                    >
                                    > >> You have named many famous composers, but remember that, had it
                                    > > not been for the older liturgical music of the Russian Church, they would
                                    > > have had nowhere to start from...
                                    >
                                    > But is'nt that the way it normally happens? Should today's composer give
                                    > up because everything has already been accomplished?
                                    >
                                    > Oleg
                                    >
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                                  • Rev. John R. Shaw
                                    I should point out that though I have a non-Russian name , I speak fluent Russian. Reoutt could be taken for non-Russian , although it may be abbreviated
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                      I should point out that though I have a "non-Russian name", I speak
                                      fluent Russian. "Reoutt" could be taken for "non-Russian", although it
                                      may be abbreviated from "Reutov". At the Slavic Department of the
                                      University where I studied, there was a "Dr. Shaw" who taught Russian
                                      literature--but "Shaw" in her case was abbreviated from
                                      "Shevchenko".Don't judge a book by its cover, or a person by their
                                      surname!
                                      >
                                      Having read several comments about Tchaikovsky's church music being
                                      > weak and everything after Znamenny Rospev going downhill (not the exact
                                      > words, but my recollection) made by posters with non-Russian names, I
                                      > was moved to a tongue in cheek reply. Beethoven is not Russian, but his
                                      > music is fantastic. The same holds for Mozart, Bizet, Dvorak to name a
                                      > few.
                                      >
                                      > >> Is that why the Parisians threw chairs, in (was it?) 1917, at "The Rite of
                                      > > Spring"?
                                      >
                                      > Now Stravinsky is often difficult for me. Have you heard his "Our
                                      > Father"?
                                      >
                                      > I know that you know that Pushkin is not Welsh.
                                      >
                                      > Oleg
                                      >
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                                      >
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                                    • Matanna@aol.com
                                      ... Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother (younger, not older) later categorized as being po-stravinskomu (roughly translates
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                        >If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.<

                                        Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother (younger,
                                        not older) later categorized as being "po-stravinskomu" (roughly translates
                                        "the Stravinksy way") because of our marked failures in execution.....

                                        ;-D

                                        FWIW, Lermontov had Scottish blood.


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                                      • Robert S Miller
                                        Lermontov had Scots blood, hence genes. And the Royal Family had a Scots physician for some years, although the fated Dr. Botkin had succeeded him: Don t know
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                          Lermontov had Scots blood, hence genes. And
                                          the Royal Family had a Scots physician for some
                                          years, although the fated Dr. Botkin had succeeded him:
                                          Don't know the reason. And whether the Scots physician
                                          sang Znamenny chant is likewise unknown. The real
                                          point is that Orthdox Christianity is Universal/Catholic,
                                          so, the way I understand it, discussion of Znamenny or
                                          Kievan or Sibirsky Rospev concerns really how Russia
                                          adapted/adopted the Chant/Prayer from its Orthodox
                                          Enlightener, Byzantium.
                                          Some may think it puts too fine a point on it to say
                                          that what we like to hear in Church music puts the
                                          situation backward: We are supposed to allow ourselves
                                          to be formed by the Church, and we should not impose
                                          what we like on the Church. That, of course, is very
                                          idealistic. Pastorally, the Chant/Church music
                                          should not be a musical or aesthetic disaster,
                                          in any case: when the senses are jangled, so is the soul.
                                          In short, choirs, if functioning, should rehearse and
                                          rehearse until they get it right, singing whatever
                                          music leads the people to better communal prayer.
                                          Probably I got a little pompous here.

                                          Joseph M

                                          ----------
                                          > From: Matanna@...
                                          > To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
                                          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Die Musik
                                          > Date: Saturday, June 12, 1999 9:22 AM
                                          >
                                          > >If Stravinsky wrote an "Our Father," I have never heard it.<
                                          >
                                          > Me, either, but there were some things that we sang that my brother
                                          (younger,
                                          > not older) later categorized as being "po-stravinskomu" (roughly
                                          translates
                                          > "the Stravinksy way") because of our marked failures in execution.....
                                          >
                                          > ;-D
                                          >
                                          > FWIW, Lermontov had Scottish blood.
                                          >


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                                        • LJames6034@aol.com
                                          Dear Anna, When I was a little boy, older people told me: You ll learn patience, when you are older. They lied. Sometimes I wish I were patient, but,
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                            Dear Anna,

                                            When I was a little boy, older people told me: "You'll learn patience, when
                                            you are older."

                                            They lied.

                                            Sometimes I wish I were patient, but, frankly, I find all the emphasis upon
                                            national origin suspect, at best. One of the great Russian writers would sit
                                            down and take two glasses, one containing water, the containing wine.

                                            He would mix these two. The water suggested German ancestry. The red wine
                                            was symbolic of good Russian blood.

                                            He went back several generations in the Royal Family, admixing German water
                                            with Russian wine, until he got to the Emperor then reigning. The Russian
                                            wine had turned to German water.

                                            Among Royal Families, prior to the Protestant Reformation, all the families
                                            were one family.

                                            George Bush had more royal ancestors than any of our presidents, except
                                            George Washington. Bush is even descended from that same family as King Zog
                                            of Albania, believe it or not.

                                            Here is a little something from Dimitri Oblensky's Byzantine Commonwealth
                                            (New York: Praeger Publishers, 1971). Obelnsky (p. 225) said: ". . . a
                                            Byzantine princess, almost certainly the daughter of Constasntine IX
                                            Monomachus, was to marry a younger son of Prince Yaroslav of Kiev."

                                            "The child of this marriage born in 1053, is a distinguished figure in
                                            Russian history. Called Vladimir, he inherited his imperial grandfather's
                                            surname which the Russian rendered as Monomakh. Equally outstanding as a
                                            statesman, a general, a writer and a man, Vladimir Monomakh has been compared
                                            to King Alfred of England."

                                            Well he might be, his children were the descendants of St. Alfred the Great.

                                            This is how that happened.

                                            Obelensky (p. 226) says:

                                            ". . . his mother was a Byzantine princess; one of his uncles married the
                                            daughter of the king of Poland; of his three aunts, one married the king of
                                            Norway, another married Henry I of France, a third became the wife of the
                                            king of Hungary. Vladimir's own wife was the daugther of King Harold of
                                            England; his eldest son married the daughter of the king of Sweden, his
                                            daughter married the king of Hungary; and his granddaughger married into the
                                            imperial family of the Comeni."

                                            With all this admixture of Good Russian Blood with the blood of the Royal
                                            Families of Western Europe, surely, somewhere along the way, there had to be
                                            various "borrowings" of one thing and another? Genes, if nothing else!

                                            King Harold, II, was the last Orthodox king of England. At the Battle of
                                            Hastings, he was shot in the eye by a Norman knight. The Normans cut off his
                                            head, and threw it, together with his left leg, somewhere, away. But,
                                            Harold's descendants came to rule Russia. Just as the last Saxon kings came
                                            to rule both England and Scotland, via Edward the Aetheling's descendants,
                                            the Stewarts. It is just that few of us remember the Saxon ancestry of the
                                            Russian Royal House.

                                            In Eisenstein's wonderful movie: "Alexander Nevsky," one is shown the heroic
                                            figure of St. Alexander (in a John Barrymore stance). Mongols ask "Who are
                                            you?" He answers: "Kynaz Alexander. I am prince here."

                                            A little redundancy there. A "knyaz" is a "prince," but, no matter. That
                                            scene is historically inaccurate, in that, it was the Mogols who made St.
                                            Alexander "prince."
                                            Not that I am complaining.

                                            As Gilbert and Sullivan once put it: "Things are seldom what they seem.
                                            Skim milk masquerades as cream. . . . "

                                            When I was a boy, we learned to say: "De gustibus non disputatem." (Don't
                                            argue about taste). That's a dictum to cover any musical or artistic taste,
                                            Russian or otherwise, I think.

                                            Surely, after Herr Hitler, it will one day become silly to discuss racial or
                                            ethnic purity?

                                            The Russian Royal House is my best argument for abandoning all that.

                                            God hasten the day.


                                            Father Andrew L. J. James, Ph.D., knyaz

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                                          • LJames6034@aol.com
                                            What I meant to say, when I said: Just as the descendants of the Saxon kings came to rule England and Scotland, via descent from Edward the Aetheling,
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 12, 1999
                                              What I meant to say, when I said: "Just as the descendants of the Saxon
                                              kings came to rule England and Scotland, via descent from Edward the
                                              Aetheling, through the Stewarts, so, also, descendants of the Saxon kings
                                              came to rule over Russia." I presume most of you knew that. Try to forgive
                                              me for the sentence fragment.

                                              I cannot abide sentence fragments.

                                              I complained about that in a letter to the Sunday Magazine of The New York
                                              Times, concerning an article written by Susan Sontag.

                                              All I said was:

                                              "Just war. Good.
                                              Sentence fragments. Bad."

                                              God is rewarding me for being a smart aleck.


                                              Father Andrew

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