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[orthodox-synod] Re: Monarche

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  • LJames6034@aol.com
    Actually, I think Ivan the Terrible was the 4th of that name. And, furthermore, it was ever my understanding Tsar Ivan Groszny, murdered his son Dimitri, by
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 1, 2000
      Actually, I think Ivan the Terrible was the 4th of that name.

      And, furthermore, it was ever my understanding Tsar Ivan Groszny, murdered
      his son Dimitri, by hitting him in the head with a metal rod, not a spear.
      Dimitri was just as dead, either way.

      This, of course, led to the "False Dimitri," who raised an army and so on.

      I want to publicly confess: I vote. It is distasteful to me, but I do it.
      It always seems to me hypocritical, but I do it!

      The Romanovs came to power as Joseph says: By election of the Boyars, not
      by the Grace of God. Doubtless, the Romanovs were descendants of St.
      Valdimir, in some way.

      Aren't most of us?

      Father Andrew
    • Robert Miller
      ... From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 7:12 PM Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Monarche ... *** I was
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 1, 2000
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <LJames6034@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2000 7:12 PM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Monarche


        > Actually, I think Ivan the Terrible was the 4th of that name.

        *** I was afraid I'd get the number wrong, you see, but the number of Ivans
        was not the point, of course.
        >
        > And, furthermore, it was ever my understanding Tsar Ivan Groszny,
        murdered
        > his son Dimitri, by hitting him in the head with a metal rod, not a spear.

        *** Okay, but I've read some other expert than yours, and mine said he
        threw a spear. That's the trouble with historical experts.

        > Dimitri was just as dead, either way.

        *** It doesn't seem to matter, does it, but dear Fr Andrew nowhere in your
        response do you exculpate or give absolution to Tsar Ivan III-IV, not even
        because he was Tsar, and that's one of the dark corners of this brouhaha
        about Tsars which I was hoping you or someone would enlighten.
        >
        > > I want to publicly confess: I vote. It is distasteful to me, but I
        do it.
        > It always seems to me hypocritical, but I do it!

        *** Why hypocritical? I don't seem to me to be hypocritical when I vote,
        just near to pointless.
        >
        > The Romanovs came to power as Joseph says: By election of the Boyars,
        not
        > by the Grace of God. Doubtless, the Romanovs were descendants of St.
        > Valdimir, in some way.
        >
        > Aren't most of us?

        *** Quite possibly you are, but my genealogy reaches back no more than three
        generations, which makes me suspect something about my ancestors that
        perhaps I don't want to know.
        >

        Joseph Mi
      • LJames6034@aol.com
        There is a famous, 19th century painting of Ivan the Terrible clutching his dead son. He looks not just bereaved, but absolutely demented (we are to infer:
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 2, 2000
          There is a famous, 19th century painting of Ivan the Terrible clutching his
          dead son. He looks not just bereaved, but absolutely demented (we are to
          infer: by reason of the grief). It is not possible for me to absolve Ivan
          the Terrible for what he did. Dead is dead. Unless I have missed something,
          that particular book is closed.

          The heightened rhetoric of all this becomes tedious. One person demanding
          apologies from Americans for not being monarchists. Another saying the one
          who started (and keeps starting) this line of reasoning reasons "like a
          communist."

          Of course, he does. He was educated by them. There was created a Homo
          Sovieticus. There is an analogous situation in those of us who graduated
          from Jesuit schools: We think the way they taught us to think.

          Since, as a young man, Tsar Nicholas, II, kept a mistress, shall we refer to
          that ballet dancer as "the sacred mistress of the sacred monarch"?

          I doubt it. That is why, trying to remove this from something that
          "matters" to an historical reference, I repeated the scoffing remark of the
          wag who said of His Brittanic Majesty King Charles, II, "It must always be
          remembered that His Majesty uses the chamber pot."


          Father Andrew
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