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[orthodox-synod] Consuming vodka

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  • TeklaI@aol.com
    It is surely possible that the Tsars profited from the sale of vodka. I don t dispute this at all. But it seems that everyone is assuming, in typical
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 30, 2000
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      It is surely possible that the Tsars profited from the sale of vodka. I don't
      dispute this at all. But it seems that everyone is assuming, in typical
      Twenty-First western pop psychology fashion that the Tsars were THEREFORE
      responsible for the drunkeness of those who consumed the vodka. This is a
      very recent way of looking at the problem of alcohol use, abuse and addiction.

      Personal responsibility has really taken a beating in this last century. I
      believe the Orthodox view of this would be different, and certainly would
      have been different in, say, the fifteenth century.

      Elizabeth
    • LJames6034@aol.com
      It is a drunk s logic that: I wouldn t do this, if it weren t for you. One of my former parishioners, whose husband beat her, told me: He explained to me
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 30, 2000
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        It is a drunk's logic that: "I wouldn't do this, if it weren't for you."

        One of my former parishioners, whose husband beat her, told me: "He
        explained to me that it was my fault."

        "Susan," I said, "you are being victimized again. All wife-beaters tell
        their wives that same story. They are 'good'. You are 'bad'. They,
        being good, would never do this, were it not for what you do. No, they are
        make deliberate choices."

        That story about how St. Vladimir chose Christianity is telling, in this
        regard. He is alleged (I don't believe a word of it) to have said: "We
        can't choose Judaism. The Jews are driven everywhere. The Muslims don't
        drink. Alcoholic if too important to the Rus to choose Islam." Therefore,
        he turned to Christianity.

        Though the story isn't true, it does illustrate the place alcohol has in the
        Russian past.

        One of the reasons there is so much alcoholism is not just the presence of
        the alcohol, it is also the presence of the Viking genes. Alcoholism is a
        genetically induced "disease." Both the land of origin of the Vikings, and
        everywhere the Vikings went to colonize, is heavily touched with alcoholism.

        Dublin, Ireland, by the way, was founded by the Vikings.

        Could that explain the real origin (with another apology to Father Ambrose)
        of the joke that goes: "What's the difference between an Irish wake and an
        Irish funeral?"

        "One less drunk."

        (In English, grammatically, we would say: "One fewer drunks," but, oh
        well.)

        Father Andrew
      • Joseph Digrande
        The czars were partially responsible for this devastation and did nothing to stop it (until St. Nicholas). They were partially responsible like any drug-dealer
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 30, 2000
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          The czars were partially responsible for this
          devastation and did nothing to stop it (until St.
          Nicholas).
          They were partially responsible like any drug-dealer
          is. Like the British and Americans were partially
          responsible for opium addiction in China in the 19th
          century. Many fine houses in Boston are built with
          opium money. We don't like to compare people in nice
          clothes and who go to Church regularly with
          drug-dealers but there is a one-to-one relationship
          here. Except of course that the Russian state had the
          financial, military and political tools to keep Russia
          as addicted as possible. Vodka was a medicine in Genoa
          and was imported as such in the late 15th century. The
          Bible has strong condemnation for �mbibing strong
          drink" and the Old Testament had no idea what 80 proof
          vodka meant.
          The New Testament is crystal clear on drunkards- there
          is no pop psychology involved here. The Russian nation
          and Czar knew exactly what 80 proof medicine does to
          your people. and in a nation that fasts from meat 220
          days a year etc, that has a history of great ascetics
          and saints- there was no excuse.

          --- TeklaI@... wrote:
          >
          > It is surely possible that the Tsars profited from
          > the sale of vodka. I don't
          > dispute this at all. But it seems that everyone is
          > assuming, in typical
          > Twenty-First western pop psychology fashion that the
          > Tsars were THEREFORE
          > responsible for the drunkeness of those who consumed
          > the vodka. This is a
          > very recent way of looking at the problem of alcohol
          > use, abuse and addiction.
          >
          > Personal responsibility has really taken a beating
          > in this last century. I
          > believe the Orthodox view of this would be
          > different, and certainly would
          > have been different in, say, the fifteenth century.
          >
          > Elizabeth
          >
          >
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        • Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
          As my Irish wife just reminded me, her uncle, Cyril O Brien always said, The are two kinds of Irishmen--drunks and poets. No, make that one kind of Irishman.
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 31, 2000
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            As my Irish wife just reminded me, her uncle, Cyril O'Brien always said,
            "The are two kinds of Irishmen--drunks and poets. No, make that one kind of
            Irishman."

            Ephrem


            ---
            Ephrem Hugh Bensusan
            Webmaster, Tserkovnost: An Eastern Orthodox Resource Centre
            http://www.tserkovnost.org


            >From: LJames6034@...
            >Reply-To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
            >To: orthodox-synod@egroups.com
            >Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Consuming vodka
            >Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:00:12 EST

            >
            >It is a drunk's logic that: "I wouldn't do this, if it weren't for you."
            >
            >One of my former parishioners, whose husband beat her, told me: "He
            >explained to me that it was my fault."
            >
            >"Susan," I said, "you are being victimized again. All wife-beaters tell
            >their wives that same story. They are 'good'. You are 'bad'. They,
            >being good, would never do this, were it not for what you do. No, they
            >are
            >make deliberate choices."
            >
            >That story about how St. Vladimir chose Christianity is telling, in this
            >regard. He is alleged (I don't believe a word of it) to have said: "We
            >can't choose Judaism. The Jews are driven everywhere. The Muslims don't
            >drink. Alcoholic if too important to the Rus to choose Islam." Therefore,
            >he turned to Christianity.
            >
            >Though the story isn't true, it does illustrate the place alcohol has in
            >the
            >Russian past.
            >
            >One of the reasons there is so much alcoholism is not just the presence of
            >the alcohol, it is also the presence of the Viking genes. Alcoholism is a
            >genetically induced "disease." Both the land of origin of the Vikings,
            >and
            >everywhere the Vikings went to colonize, is heavily touched with
            >alcoholism.
            >
            >Dublin, Ireland, by the way, was founded by the Vikings.
            >
            >Could that explain the real origin (with another apology to Father Ambrose)
            >of the joke that goes: "What's the difference between an Irish wake and an
            >Irish funeral?"
            >
            >"One less drunk."
            >
            >(In English, grammatically, we would say: "One fewer drunks," but, oh
            >well.)
            >
            >Father Andrew

            ______________________________________________________
          • LJames6034@aol.com
            Uncle Cyril, were he on this list, would, as I have several times, apologize to Father Ambrose in New Zealand, for that Irish story. And, I am sure, Uncle
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 1, 2000
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              Uncle Cyril, were he on this list, would, as I have several times, apologize
              to Father Ambrose in New Zealand, for that Irish story. And, I am sure,
              Uncle Cyril doubtless meant that all Irishmen are poets.

              Father Andrew
            • TeklaI@aol.com
              The point of my post was this, which you missed: I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not someone else. This flies in the face of post-Freudian
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 1, 2000
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                The point of my post was this, which you missed:

                I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not someone else.

                This flies in the face of post-Freudian thinking, but it is in line with New
                Testament thinking. I believe that many posting here have failed to take a
                look at their cultural assumptions, being immersed in them.

                Elizabeth
              • Joseph Digrande
                That is very true- that one is responsible for one s thoughts and actions. Likewise autocratic governments are responsible for their policies like the support
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 1, 2000
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                  That is very true- that one is responsible for one's
                  thoughts and actions.
                  Likewise autocratic governments are responsible for
                  their policies like the support for opium trade with
                  China or profit and control of the vodka trade in
                  Russia.
                  That is why governmental support of abortion in this
                  country is seen as evil and needs to be opposed. Of
                  course every woman can choose but the government and
                  private groups who support abortion on demand as a
                  right are opposed for being partially responsible for
                  the "culture of death"
                  Since autorcrats have much more power than government
                  that is divided, the introduction, sale, distribution
                  of vodka in Russia by the Orthodox state was immoral
                  and needed to be opposed. Not opposing it weakened the
                  monarchy, the Church and the Orthodox family- the
                  backbone of society. Also someone born with fetal
                  alcohol syndrome or FAE is a responsible victim with
                  an extremely heavy cross to bear. There were many of
                  them in Russia as well (and there are many today).
                  The Romanovs and the Windsors were cousins- extremely
                  well educated- I wonder if the opium and vodka trade
                  ever came up between them on their visits with each
                  other.
                  --- TeklaI@... wrote:
                  >
                  > The point of my post was this, which you missed:
                  >
                  > I am responsible for what I do to my own body, not
                  > someone else.
                  >
                  > This flies in the face of post-Freudian thinking,
                  > but it is in line with New
                  > Testament thinking. I believe that many posting here
                  > have failed to take a
                  > look at their cultural assumptions, being immersed
                  > in them.
                  >
                  > Elizabeth
                  >
                  >
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