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Re: Interview with Metropolitan Laurus

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  • boulia_1
    This is thorough and beautiful, Matushka. Now if only Michael, Mike, Melissa and all threst of them will read it with open eyes and open hearts. --Elizabeth
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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      This is thorough and beautiful, Matushka. Now if only
      Michael, "Mike," Melissa and all threst of them will read it with
      open eyes and open hearts.


      --Elizabeth Ledkovsky


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
      <matanna@...> wrote:
      >> I am neither obfuscating nor evading. I am explaining to you that
      you
      > are wrong, and asking under whose influence or for whose good you
      are
      > distorting the Metropolitan's interview and actions so. It is clear
      > that you are not in ROCOR, so I think it's valid to ask who is
      > instructing you in Orthodoxy, so that we can consider the source.
      >
      > You still haven't told us.
      >
      > Michael, who is your bishop, and, is he Orthodox?
      >
      > > .... remainder deleted for brevity...
    • boulia_1
      Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a more informed opinion.
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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        Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
        been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
        more informed opinion.

        As for this bit of eloquence:

        > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
        >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
        >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
        >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
        >

        ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
        else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
        It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
        that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
        longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

        The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
        goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
        the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
        FACT COME.

        We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
        example), really we do!




        In Christ,
        Elizabeth Ledkovsky




        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
        >
        > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
        is being obfuscated is
        >
        > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
        > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
        > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
        > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
        > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
        >
        > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
        sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
        proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
        of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
        something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
        years ago.
        >
        > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
        average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
        move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
        be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
        >
        > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
        skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
        Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
        next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
        career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
        molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
        senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
        elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
        very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
        >
        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
        > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
        real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
        mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
        >
        > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
        straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
        Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
        Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
        >
        > Gene T
        >
        > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
        really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
        Lebedeff himself.
        >
        > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Carol
        What I find interesting, is: **In the Prayer For The Living** in one part of the prayer we can all join and say: And first remember Thy Holy Catholic and
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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          What I find interesting, is: **In the Prayer For The Living** in one part of the prayer we can all join and say: "And first remember Thy Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Which thou has , provided by thy precious blood, and establish and strengthen, and expand, increase, pacify,and keep her unconquerable, by the gates of hades; (calm the dissensions of the churches, quench the ragings of the nations, and quickly destroy and uproot the rising of heresy , and bring them to nought by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT")

          We always pray this and have prayed it, are the prayers for nothing do they not mean anything? What are we thinking when we pray that? How does it fit with the merger?

          Maybe God has plans we do not know and perhaps things will get better and the ROC will turn for the better? I know it does not look like it now, But God can perform miracles! I do not like thie idea, either and do not trust President Putin, one bit, and it is not fair to say it, but I just do not feel good about it, BUT, I must keep my faith that God is in control, somehow, and will help us.... I think he wants to run the world, but God can only know if I am right or wrong and pray I am wrong... I think he could be more of athreat thean Sudam Hussien ever was. maybe even Osama Bin laden and perhaps they are in together? These are my thoughts, ONLY< and no evidence so pray to be wrong.....The church being under the government rule is not good, at all, in Russia, but it is,, and we are now merged, and other than run away, we must pray, I guess?? We have always prayed for Russia, and we pray for the schism to be healed, and for the heretics to be stopped. Have we prayed just for something to do, or did we really mean it? Maybe they are not ready yet, but things can change. I pray not for the worse, and yes, I do see how dangerous this can be, but do we flee the church and run,, and hind, or try to stay together and be strong in the face of this? We may be surprised, and God has a plan( as mentioned before....) I still think: "Together we stand;divided we fall"

          In Christ,

          Katherine
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Michael Woodson
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:23 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Metropolitan Laurus



          It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as
          permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1) national
          unity; and (2) lots of new architecture for the Church; and (3) numbers
          of people standing in support of the ceremony on which the leaders have
          a vested interest since they have swept so much under the carpet to set
          up the whitewashed tomb of Moscow Patriarchate domination of the entire
          church. The original Soviet plan for the Church is now complete, and
          Putin is preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe.

          Metropolitan Laurus's interview had everything compliant in it with what
          the RF and MP would like to hear and disseminate. Where were the
          in-depth discussions of Russia's problems as we might once have read in
          Orthodox Word to the diasporal parishes and seekers? The spiritual and
          moral guidance? It was not pastoral but it was a political flattery of
          the latest progress. No food, just blood-Red cotton candy.

          Also, he said:

          "Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
          Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
          believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
          my visit to Russia and Ukraine."

          Too weird for me. United? All one has to do is read this list, talk to
          other parishioners and/or former parishioners, and see that it is not
          so. I'm not used to watching an obvious lie being told by the First
          Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, however, it is not that
          I did not expect it once he signed off on the worldly contract, binding
          the church to the fine print that enshrined the political priorities of
          the RF/MP regime above the Church.

          I am reminded again of the point in the short story by Dostoyevsky, "The
          Grand Inquisitor" in which the church's leadership informs the Lord
          Jesus Christ that they had waited long enough for Him and were now
          taking matters into their own hands, making progress and not needing His
          input then, thank you very much.

          While the Lord Jesus Christ is in and with "the least of these" I also
          recall Proto-Priest Alexander Lebedeff's missive against the least of
          these in the ROCOR, judging the least of these as pasted below in
          italics from a previous post:

          So many of the posts here by those who have splintered (or are
          considering splintering) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
          Russia seem to ignore the consequences of their ending up in a
          non-canonical splinter group, even though the adherents of that group
          trumpet that they are the "True Orthodox."

          This reminds me so much of the croaking of frogs, each sitting in its
          little pond, and asserting that their pond is the greatest, the
          truest.

          One can envision a large lake, surrounded by a multitude of little
          ponds, each connected to the lake and drawing water from it.

          But some ponds cut themselves off from the lake.

          What happens?

          They begin to dry up and lose the life-giving water that flows from
          the lake.

          Pretty soon these ponds become simple puddles of muddy water.

          Yet there are still frogs on them, proclaiming their correctness and
          righteousness.

          The fact is that the Orthodox Church -- the True Church of Christ --
          consists not only of the community of the faithful that keep the
          teachings of the Church unchanged.

          It is a family of canonical Churches, who mutually recognize each
          other and are found in eucharistic communion. It is unity at the
          Chalice that is the hallmark of the Church of Christ.

          ------

          The True Church of Christ, in Lebedev's words, must also consist of
          those who do not keep the teachings of the Church unchanged. He wrote
          that the True Church is founded on mutual recognition and eucharistic
          communion, that is, on contract law, rather than on the Holy Spirit's
          agency in the Holy Mysteries as related to unity in humble
          self-examination and confession before the Holy Mysteries. If partaking
          is true because of an agreement or an appearance, then the true church
          to Lebedev, is an external, legal institution.

          Did you see it? Did you see Holy Mysteries disappear and "eucharistic
          communion" replace it? I'd thought I'd returned to a Jesuit university
          for just a moment. Did you see how unity at the Chalice, with the
          Chalice emphasized over the Holy Mysteries symbolizes the outer
          architectures and not the internal priorities of the Church's dogmas and
          traditions? Did you see how he anticipated that the Church would now
          include those who communed in a state of refusing to keep the teachings
          of the Church unchanged? Those others, who think that to be important
          are perishing frogs, by his lights.

          It appears that in his world, the Church is Lake Superior, and he
          supposes that downstream ponds (his regard for parishes related to the
          MP) could possibly cut themselves off from a river running into them.
          Usually, the cut-off happens somewhere in the tributary connecting the
          Lake and the Parish pool. However, with the MP, we have the
          uber-polluted Lake Superior, not the Patriarch of Moscow and All
          Russias, the trustee to God over Holy Russia. Rather, we have a trustee
          to Putin over former KGB-led Russia. Ah, but why quibble over such
          details? That would make us self-righteous frogs.

          Very well. There are worse symbols, since it was a plague of frogs at
          some point with which God ratcheted up His humbling of Pharoah before
          opening the Red Sea for his servants.

          If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the Protopriest
          could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this forum
          without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came before or
          after the comments were made. This ought to reveal something of the
          internal spirit of those who set up the facade of the One Act.

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com> , morechoff@... wrote:
          >
          > From Interfax...
          >
          > Interview with Metropolitan Laurus given to Interfax.
          >
          > Michael Orechoff
          >
          > ----------
          >
          > 2007-06-05 10:34:00
          >
          > We hope our joint ministry and work will help to strengthen the
          Orthodoxy
          >
          >
          >
          > On May 17 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church
          Outside of Russia signed the Act of Canonical Communion. A large
          delegation led by ROCOR primate Metropolitan Laurus came to Moscow to
          participate in the event. The guests visited many Moscow churches and
          monasteries, went to the Korennaya monastery in Kursk, and honored many
          shrines of Ukraine. Before leaving for the United States, Metropolitan
          Laurus shared his impressions with Interfax-Religion.
          >
          >
          > - The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is
          about to end their visiting of Russia and Ukraine after the historic
          reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What is your impression of what
          you have seen?
          >
          > - If compared to my coming to Russia in 2004, during this visit we
          have transparently seen dynamic development in church life. There much
          more reopened churches and monasteries and they are all full of people.
          When in Kursk, I was deeply impressed with the restored Korennaya Pustyn
          Monastery full of joyful changes.
          >
          > I was glad to see that churches are built by different social groups
          working together. It not only makes it quicker, but also stimulates
          popular interest for the Orthodoxy. To my mind, this kind of cooperation
          is very important not only for constructing churches and monasteries,
          but also in educational and social work of the Church.
          >
          > Still the visitâ?Ts principal result has been our joint
          celebration of the Eucharist both in Russia and Ukraine, which
          demonstrated that we are the one body, the one spirit, and the one
          Church and that the one Christ, our God, is with and within us.
          >
          > - Was were you thought and feelings during the ceremony of signing of
          the Canonical Communion Act in the Christ the Saviorâ?Ts?
          >
          > - At that historical moment I prayed, and so I do now, thanking God
          for bringing the Russian Orthodox Churchâ?Ts two branches to such a
          unity confirmed by the Act. Finally we have achieved the possibility to
          worship together and to join in one liturgy! It was an affecting moment
          and many people were crying. We have been waiting for this minute for
          many decades.
          >
          > - Clergy and people from the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian
          Orthodox Church Outside of Russia worshipped together and shared in the
          same communion cup in Russian and Ukrainian churches. We all could see
          many young people attending those services...
          >
          > - It is very joyful to see many young people and children going to
          churches nowadays. They are brought up in a church manner so that they
          may bring their children there too. It is very good that you endeavor to
          introduce the Basic Orthodox Culture as a voluntary part of curriculum.
          It affects the nationâ?Ts morals and leads people to a unity. It is
          very important to Russiaâ?Ts future.
          >
          > - Are there any distinctive features of the Orthodox witness in the
          West?
          >
          > - We should keep the Orthodoxy and the spirit of the Holy Rus among
          the diaspora. It was the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia that
          gives to our йmigrйs spiritual might, uniting them and saving
          them from complete disappearing. We try to celebrate liturgies wherever
          we can. We celebrate 25th and 50th anniversaries of our parishes. We
          maintain our own traditions, but now it is especially important for us
          to learn the traditions peculiar for Russia.
          >
          > - What will you say in your first sermon after you are back home?
          >
          > - Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
          Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
          believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
          my visit to Russia and Ukraine.
          >
          > - The Church reunion achieved on May 17 is both a joyful event and a
          great responsibility. How do you hope to serve to the united Russian
          Orthodox Church?
          >
          > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole Orthodox
          world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and lay people,
          to be interested in what they do, their traditions, monastic life,
          missionary, social and educational work. I hope that our joint ministry
          and common work in the spirit of the love as commanded by Christ will
          bring real fruits and will help to strengthen the holy Church.
          >
          >
          >
          __________________________________________________________
          > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
          free from AOL at AOL.com.
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael nikitin
          http://metphilaret. homestead. com/philaret. html Holy Metr. Philaret called the MP a pseudo-Church from the ambon in his sermon for all to hear. The MP is not
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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            http://metphilaret. homestead. com/philaret. html
            Holy Metr. Philaret called the MP a pseudo-Church
            from the ambon in his sermon for all to hear.
            The MP is not any part of the historic Russian Church
            that Holy Metr. Philaret was referring to.

            When did this pseudo-church become the Russian "Mother Church"
            that was able to give ROCOR(L) autonomy?

            http://www.wadioces e.com/eng/ Document/ 2001pastoralconf .html
            ..."it is completely absurd for the Russian Orthodox Church
            Outside of Russia, founded in 1920 in accordance with Holy
            Patriarch Tikhon's Ukase, to consider the Moscow Patriarchate its
            Mother Church. The Moscow Patriarchate was unlawfully
            founded an entire seven years later in 1927 after the usurpation
            of the lawful Church Authority by Metropolitan Sergius"...

            "The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has always refused
            to consider the new church structure created by Metropolitan
            Sergius to be lawful and canonical; it refuses this to this very
            day. How can our Church consider the hierarchal structure created
            by Metropolitan Sergius to be canonical, when a number of the
            Moscow Patriarchate' s best church historians themselves refer to
            Metropolitan Sergius' authority as "non-canonical" (see the Acts
            of Holy Patriarch Tikhon published by the Saint Tikhon
            Theological Institute in Moscow)?"


            Michael N


            --- "(matushka) Ann Lardas" <matanna@...> wrote:
            "Metropolitan Philaret was upset that children were not being
            baptized, communed, or catechized. Now, the churches are full of
            children, bookstore kiosks sell religious books all over Russia,
            and there is religious education in the schools. (Note that the
            Metropolitan thought that the MP clergy were depriving the
            children of Holy Communion. That must mean that he was convinced
            that they could provide it to them.)"






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          • Mary Marczyk
            In response to boulia When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest! Anonymous (thanks
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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              In response to "boulia"

              When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest! Anonymous (thanks to Abbess Juliana).

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: boulia_1
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:06 AM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Metropolitan Laurus does Kursk (was interview)


              Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
              been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
              more informed opinion.

              As for this bit of eloquence:

              > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
              >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
              >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
              >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
              >

              ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
              else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
              It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
              that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
              longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

              The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
              goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
              the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
              FACT COME.

              We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
              example), really we do!

              In Christ,
              Elizabeth Ledkovsky

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
              >
              > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
              is being obfuscated is
              >
              > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
              > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
              > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
              > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
              > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
              >
              > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
              sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
              proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
              of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
              something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
              years ago.
              >
              > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
              average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
              move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
              be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
              >
              > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
              skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
              Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
              next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
              career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
              molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
              senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
              elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
              very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
              >
              http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
              > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
              real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
              mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
              >
              > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
              straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
              Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
              Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
              >
              > Gene T
              >
              > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
              really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
              Lebedeff himself.
              >
              > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • gene703
              Dear Mrs. Ledkovsky, It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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                Dear Mrs. Ledkovsky,

                It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like real truth about Russian history and it's present. Thinking about Christ came much later. Asking me to go back there while the good old commies are still in charge only in a different disguise (some don't even bother) and an ex-KGB officer for a president is like asking an escaped african-american slave back in say 1881 to comon' down and enjoy a visit to, say, south carolina or missisipi, see what I mean ?

                Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services and of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man. There is no true religious revival there, just a bunch of ex-commies chugging through a very large budget, thank you Mr. Putin very much.

                And Alexei II for goodness sake - he was made bishop and chief operating officer of the MP during the Brezhnev time. Decent people avoid at all costs being seen in such company under any circumstances. That was common wisdom in ROCOR just 10 short years ago.

                Gene T

                PS. I am sure hanging out in Moscow for two weeks with a Patriarch was tons of fun for a tolerant, forgiving, open-minded American who delights at anyone just entering the church on Sunday even for 10 minutes instead of golf, dining, shopping, gambling or plain vegging in front of a TV with a cold one.


                boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
                been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
                more informed opinion.

                As for this bit of eloquence:

                > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                >

                ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
                else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
                It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
                that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
                longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

                The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
                goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
                the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
                FACT COME.

                We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
                example), really we do!

                In Christ,
                Elizabeth Ledkovsky

                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
                >
                > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
                is being obfuscated is
                >
                > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
                > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
                > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
                > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
                > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
                >
                > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
                sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
                proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
                of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
                something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
                years ago.
                >
                > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
                average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
                move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
                be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
                >
                > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
                skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
                Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
                next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
                career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
                molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
                senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
                elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
                very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
                >
                http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
                > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
                real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
                mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
                >
                > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                >
                > Gene T
                >
                > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
                really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
                Lebedeff himself.
                >
                > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






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              • Hristofor/ХристофорЪ
                ... May the Lord forgive you; you really know not what you speak. On Saturday afternoon/evening after Ascension, I took a walk from the Detski Mir department
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
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                  On 6/7/07, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:

                  > It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a
                  > last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like real truth
                  > about Russian history and it's present. Thinking about Christ came much
                  > later. Asking me to go back there while the good old commies are still in
                  > charge only in a different disguise (some don't even bother) and an ex-KGB
                  > officer for a president is like asking an escaped african-american slave
                  > back in say 1881 to comon' down and enjoy a visit to, say, south carolina
                  > or missisipi, see what I mean ?
                  >
                  > Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services
                  > and of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man. There is no
                  > true religious revival there, just a bunch of ex-commies chugging through a
                  > very large budget, thank you Mr. Putin very much.



                  May the Lord forgive you; you really know not what you speak. On Saturday
                  afternoon/evening after Ascension, I took a walk from the Detski Mir
                  department store to the Sretensky Monastery. I passed several churches along
                  the way, all of them open and functioning; churches which I recall were
                  derelict and profaned structures *just less than 10 yrs ago*. I went inside
                  each one. They were all crowded, with people of all ages and both sexes. A
                  habitual zarubezhnik churchgoer might be forgiven if they were wondering
                  what the pending feast was, since the lines for confession were like those
                  we see here on the eve of major feasts and not just an ordinary Saturday
                  vigil. Or perhaps this was all some kind of spiritual Potemkin village?
                  Maybe in advance they knew what route Hristofor would walk and bussed the
                  people in to look busy and spiritual?

                  I recall when Russian children would run up to the Intourist buses looking
                  to trade pins for gum and jeans. Now they were coming up to our priests
                  asking for blessings. Likewise in the past Russian kids would be sent to the
                  komsomol camps; now there are brochures in the back of churches inviting
                  children to attend Orthodox summer camps. There are ads for organized
                  pilgrimages to the holy sites in Russia, the Ukraine, the Holy Land etc.

                  For the Leave-taking of Pascha a small group of us went into the center and
                  went into the first church we came upon (Bogojavlenski Monastery in
                  Kitaj-gorod). We had the good fortune to be in a church which was actually a
                  training school for choir directors. There was a choir of choir directors
                  (!) on each cliros. Everyone single person was in their 20's. At this
                  service and at the actual Leave-taking of Pascha, I was surprised to see
                  average businessmen in suits in church, either on their way home or on their
                  way to work. The Liturgy (Church of St Martin) was followed by a full
                  krestny hod, with the reading of the Gospel at all 4 sides.

                  You really should apologize for your comments: they were unfair, not true
                  and totally off base. Though I suspect that the Orthodox in Russia could
                  care less: they have found the one needful thing and are busy worrying about
                  their own salvation and not looking around for skeletons in everyone else's
                  closets. It is a pity that you have chosen to close your mind and eyes.


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                • antiquariu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 6/7/2007 7:24:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com writes: Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 8, 2007
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                    In a message dated 6/7/2007 7:24:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    gene703@... writes:

                    Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services and
                    of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man.




                    Gene, Gene, Gene, that was loaded and rather unfair. Do you attend regular
                    services, Paskha or otherwise? If you do -- at the average ROCOR or OCA
                    parish -- and for that matter overseas as well, you will find that the
                    male-female split is rather interesting over here as well. I know its a stereotype,
                    but it comes from somewhere: The men can be found outside smoking if they
                    stay, and if they don't many of them do in fact drop off their wives. That's not
                    a practice you will find at most American protestant parishes. The problem
                    is so extensive that even priests comment on it, but that's hardly a problem
                    caused by Putin.

                    In Christ,

                    Vova H.





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