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Re: Interview with Metropolitan Laurus

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  • Michael Woodson
    It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1) national unity; and (2) lots
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
      It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as
      permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1) national
      unity; and (2) lots of new architecture for the Church; and (3) numbers
      of people standing in support of the ceremony on which the leaders have
      a vested interest since they have swept so much under the carpet to set
      up the whitewashed tomb of Moscow Patriarchate domination of the entire
      church. The original Soviet plan for the Church is now complete, and
      Putin is preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe.

      Metropolitan Laurus's interview had everything compliant in it with what
      the RF and MP would like to hear and disseminate. Where were the
      in-depth discussions of Russia's problems as we might once have read in
      Orthodox Word to the diasporal parishes and seekers? The spiritual and
      moral guidance? It was not pastoral but it was a political flattery of
      the latest progress. No food, just blood-Red cotton candy.

      Also, he said:

      "Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
      Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
      believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
      my visit to Russia and Ukraine."

      Too weird for me. United? All one has to do is read this list, talk to
      other parishioners and/or former parishioners, and see that it is not
      so. I'm not used to watching an obvious lie being told by the First
      Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, however, it is not that
      I did not expect it once he signed off on the worldly contract, binding
      the church to the fine print that enshrined the political priorities of
      the RF/MP regime above the Church.

      I am reminded again of the point in the short story by Dostoyevsky, "The
      Grand Inquisitor" in which the church's leadership informs the Lord
      Jesus Christ that they had waited long enough for Him and were now
      taking matters into their own hands, making progress and not needing His
      input then, thank you very much.

      While the Lord Jesus Christ is in and with "the least of these" I also
      recall Proto-Priest Alexander Lebedeff's missive against the least of
      these in the ROCOR, judging the least of these as pasted below in
      italics from a previous post:

      So many of the posts here by those who have splintered (or are
      considering splintering) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
      Russia seem to ignore the consequences of their ending up in a
      non-canonical splinter group, even though the adherents of that group
      trumpet that they are the "True Orthodox."

      This reminds me so much of the croaking of frogs, each sitting in its
      little pond, and asserting that their pond is the greatest, the
      truest.

      One can envision a large lake, surrounded by a multitude of little
      ponds, each connected to the lake and drawing water from it.

      But some ponds cut themselves off from the lake.

      What happens?

      They begin to dry up and lose the life-giving water that flows from
      the lake.

      Pretty soon these ponds become simple puddles of muddy water.

      Yet there are still frogs on them, proclaiming their correctness and
      righteousness.

      The fact is that the Orthodox Church -- the True Church of Christ --
      consists not only of the community of the faithful that keep the
      teachings of the Church unchanged.

      It is a family of canonical Churches, who mutually recognize each
      other and are found in eucharistic communion. It is unity at the
      Chalice that is the hallmark of the Church of Christ.

      ------

      The True Church of Christ, in Lebedev's words, must also consist of
      those who do not keep the teachings of the Church unchanged. He wrote
      that the True Church is founded on mutual recognition and eucharistic
      communion, that is, on contract law, rather than on the Holy Spirit's
      agency in the Holy Mysteries as related to unity in humble
      self-examination and confession before the Holy Mysteries. If partaking
      is true because of an agreement or an appearance, then the true church
      to Lebedev, is an external, legal institution.

      Did you see it? Did you see Holy Mysteries disappear and "eucharistic
      communion" replace it? I'd thought I'd returned to a Jesuit university
      for just a moment. Did you see how unity at the Chalice, with the
      Chalice emphasized over the Holy Mysteries symbolizes the outer
      architectures and not the internal priorities of the Church's dogmas and
      traditions? Did you see how he anticipated that the Church would now
      include those who communed in a state of refusing to keep the teachings
      of the Church unchanged? Those others, who think that to be important
      are perishing frogs, by his lights.

      It appears that in his world, the Church is Lake Superior, and he
      supposes that downstream ponds (his regard for parishes related to the
      MP) could possibly cut themselves off from a river running into them.
      Usually, the cut-off happens somewhere in the tributary connecting the
      Lake and the Parish pool. However, with the MP, we have the
      uber-polluted Lake Superior, not the Patriarch of Moscow and All
      Russias, the trustee to God over Holy Russia. Rather, we have a trustee
      to Putin over former KGB-led Russia. Ah, but why quibble over such
      details? That would make us self-righteous frogs.

      Very well. There are worse symbols, since it was a plague of frogs at
      some point with which God ratcheted up His humbling of Pharoah before
      opening the Red Sea for his servants.

      If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the Protopriest
      could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this forum
      without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came before or
      after the comments were made. This ought to reveal something of the
      internal spirit of those who set up the facade of the One Act.




      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com> , morechoff@... wrote:
      >
      > From Interfax...
      >
      > Interview with Metropolitan Laurus given to Interfax.
      >
      > Michael Orechoff
      >
      > ----------
      >
      > 2007-06-05 10:34:00
      >
      > We hope our joint ministry and work will help to strengthen the
      Orthodoxy
      >
      >
      >
      > On May 17 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church
      Outside of Russia signed the Act of Canonical Communion. A large
      delegation led by ROCOR primate Metropolitan Laurus came to Moscow to
      participate in the event. The guests visited many Moscow churches and
      monasteries, went to the Korennaya monastery in Kursk, and honored many
      shrines of Ukraine. Before leaving for the United States, Metropolitan
      Laurus shared his impressions with Interfax-Religion.
      >
      >
      > - The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is
      about to end their visiting of Russia and Ukraine after the historic
      reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What is your impression of what
      you have seen?
      >
      > - If compared to my coming to Russia in 2004, during this visit we
      have transparently seen dynamic development in church life. There much
      more reopened churches and monasteries and they are all full of people.
      When in Kursk, I was deeply impressed with the restored Korennaya Pustyn
      Monastery full of joyful changes.
      >
      > I was glad to see that churches are built by different social groups
      working together. It not only makes it quicker, but also stimulates
      popular interest for the Orthodoxy. To my mind, this kind of cooperation
      is very important not only for constructing churches and monasteries,
      but also in educational and social work of the Church.
      >
      > Still the visit’s principal result has been our joint
      celebration of the Eucharist both in Russia and Ukraine, which
      demonstrated that we are the one body, the one spirit, and the one
      Church and that the one Christ, our God, is with and within us.
      >
      > - Was were you thought and feelings during the ceremony of signing of
      the Canonical Communion Act in the Christ the Savior’s?
      >
      > - At that historical moment I prayed, and so I do now, thanking God
      for bringing the Russian Orthodox Church’s two branches to such a
      unity confirmed by the Act. Finally we have achieved the possibility to
      worship together and to join in one liturgy! It was an affecting moment
      and many people were crying. We have been waiting for this minute for
      many decades.
      >
      > - Clergy and people from the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian
      Orthodox Church Outside of Russia worshipped together and shared in the
      same communion cup in Russian and Ukrainian churches. We all could see
      many young people attending those services...
      >
      > - It is very joyful to see many young people and children going to
      churches nowadays. They are brought up in a church manner so that they
      may bring their children there too. It is very good that you endeavor to
      introduce the Basic Orthodox Culture as a voluntary part of curriculum.
      It affects the nation’s morals and leads people to a unity. It is
      very important to Russia’s future.
      >
      > - Are there any distinctive features of the Orthodox witness in the
      West?
      >
      > - We should keep the Orthodoxy and the spirit of the Holy Rus among
      the diaspora. It was the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia that
      gives to our йmigrйs spiritual might, uniting them and saving
      them from complete disappearing. We try to celebrate liturgies wherever
      we can. We celebrate 25th and 50th anniversaries of our parishes. We
      maintain our own traditions, but now it is especially important for us
      to learn the traditions peculiar for Russia.
      >
      > - What will you say in your first sermon after you are back home?
      >
      > - Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
      Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
      believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
      my visit to Russia and Ukraine.
      >
      > - The Church reunion achieved on May 17 is both a joyful event and a
      great responsibility. How do you hope to serve to the united Russian
      Orthodox Church?
      >
      > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole Orthodox
      world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and lay people,
      to be interested in what they do, their traditions, monastic life,
      missionary, social and educational work. I hope that our joint ministry
      and common work in the spirit of the love as commanded by Christ will
      bring real fruits and will help to strengthen the holy Church.
      >
      >
      >
      ________________________________________________________________________
      > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
      free from AOL at AOL.com.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • boulia_1
      Oh my GOD, I hope most people do what I ordinarily do, which is ignore this poster! What constructive, edifying, soul-saving thing has Mike Woodson or any of
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
        Oh my GOD, I hope most people do what I ordinarily do, which is
        ignore this poster!

        What constructive, edifying, soul-saving thing has "Mike Woodson" or
        any of the screaming mimi rasskolniki done for anyone lately?


        Writing something like this:

        >>If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the
        Protopriest
        >>could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this
        >>forum without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came
        >>before or after the comments were made. This ought to reveal
        >>something of the internal spirit of those who set up the facade of
        >>the One Act.

        (which is ad hominem!) does not count.

        Rebuilding the churches that the Godless regime desecrated counts.

        Educating children and adults in the faith counts.

        Publishing works that glorify God counts.

        Prayer counts.

        Serving Divine Liturgy and communing hundreds of people nearly EVERY
        SINGLE day (as does Patriarch Alexei) counts.

        Sitting on the Internet trying to confuse people far-removed from the
        situation or stewing in venomous hatred DOES NOT COUNT.


        Many years to our Patriarch and our Metropolitan!
        Eis Poll eti Despota.

        --Elizabeth Ledkovsky
      • (matushka) Ann Lardas
        Dear Michael, Your close reading and lawyer s parsing and recasting of Vladyka s words is wearying and worrisome. Back when I was a child, we learned a
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
          Dear Michael,

          Your close reading and lawyer's parsing and recasting of Vladyka's
          words is wearying and worrisome. Back when I was a child, we learned
          a beautiful song from the Hans Christian Anderson movie that went

          "Inchworm, inchworm
          measuring the marigolds,
          you and your
          arithmatic will
          certainly go far!
          Inchworm, inch worm,
          measuring the marigolds,
          seems to me
          you'd stop and see
          how beautiful they are."

          I thought of that song when I read your post, Michael,because in your
          careful reading of the interview, you missed the whole point.

          When I read the metropolitan's words, I am comforted. Let me point
          out the things that you missed in what he said.

          He said that things are better, that more churches are open, that
          people from all walks of life are helping to build them, that there
          are many children in church, and that together,

          > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole
          Orthodox world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and
          lay people, to be interested in what they do, their traditions,
          monastic life, missionary, social and educational work. I hope that
          our joint ministry and common work in the spirit of the love as
          commanded by Christ will bring real fruits and will help to
          strengthen the holy Church.<


          This is beautiful and healing and good.

          Considering your words, I am inclined to think that you do not
          currently commune at a ROCOR parish. And so, you must be recruiting
          for somebody. You haven't told us, and really, it would be good to
          know -- who is your bishop and what jurisdiction are you with?

          You are good at what you do, searching statements for material that
          you can pick apart and turn into something completely different,
          something that suits your purposes, like altar boys having sword
          fights with candles. But, is it good for you to be doing this?

          Once, I knew who you were and thought I understood what you were
          doing.

          Now, I see what you are doing, and I no longer know who you are.

          Stop, and see. God didn't make marigolds for us to measure, but
          rather for their beauty to help sustain us.

          In Christ,
          Matushka Ann Lardas
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          How strange... Mr. Woodson accuses Putin of preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe ; failing to admit that it is the USA (having bombed Serbia
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
            How strange... Mr. Woodson accuses Putin of "preparing to aim nuclear
            missiles at Europe"; failing to admit that it is the USA (having
            bombed Serbia relentlessly, not stopping even on Easter Sunday, and
            killing among others, on that Pascha Day, innocent Orthodox children)
            that is now planning the chain of missiles along Russia's bordering
            countries in Europe! Why point out one without any mention of the
            other?

            The "architecture" which Mr. Woodson flips off cavalierly, treasures
            the Divine Liturgy celebrated in a timely manner and attended by
            hundreds of faithful Orthodox Christians who are regularly nurtured
            by the Grace of the Holy Spirit in the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist,
            something the Liberal Humanistic Western mindset can just not
            tolerate!

            NO SPIRITUAL FOOD? ...ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN Books, periodicals,
            magazines, dailies, tracts and newspapers abound in Russia, and
            Children are taught with, among hundreds of other publications, the
            Church Abroad's Zakon Boji (Law of God) of Father Seraphim
            Slobodskoy's blessed memory, building a firm foundation for continued
            Orthodox Christian growth! Monasteries are filled with monks and
            nuns, witnessing with their lives the rebirth of Orthodox spiritual
            life in Russia.

            The Shah of Iran, under who's administration that nation was sistered
            to the West in culture and friendship was unfairly blackened by the
            CIA and betrayed by the USA, opening the gates for revolt and turmoil
            in that region and the accent of Moslem Fundamentalist terrorism ...
            now Putin is targeted as a boogieman to be shunned and overthrown----
            FOR WHAT? No doubt for another round of LIBERAL HUMANIST ATHIESTIC
            BOLSHEVIC TERRORISM, to bleed Russia once and for all and to insure
            for the Atheist World that an Orthodox Nation should never prosper
            again!

            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Woodson"
            <singingmountains@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as
            > permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1)
            national
            > unity; and (2) lots of new architecture for the Church; and (3)
            numbers
            > of people standing in support of the ceremony on which the leaders
            have
            > a vested interest since they have swept so much under the carpet to
            set
            > up the whitewashed tomb of Moscow Patriarchate domination of the
            entire
            > church. The original Soviet plan for the Church is now complete, and
            > Putin is preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe.
            >
            > Metropolitan Laurus's interview had everything compliant in it with
            what
            > the RF and MP would like to hear and disseminate. Where were the
            > in-depth discussions of Russia's problems as we might once have
            read in
            > Orthodox Word to the diasporal parishes and seekers? The spiritual
            and
            > moral guidance? It was not pastoral but it was a political flattery
            of
            > the latest progress. No food, just blood-Red cotton candy.
            >
            > Also, he said:
            >
            > "Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
            > Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
            > believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression
            of
            > my visit to Russia and Ukraine."
            >
            > Too weird for me. United? All one has to do is read this list, talk
            to
            > other parishioners and/or former parishioners, and see that it is
            not
            > so. I'm not used to watching an obvious lie being told by the First
            > Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, however, it is not
            that
            > I did not expect it once he signed off on the worldly contract,
            binding
            > the church to the fine print that enshrined the political
            priorities of
            > the RF/MP regime above the Church.
            >
            > I am reminded again of the point in the short story by
            Dostoyevsky, "The
            > Grand Inquisitor" in which the church's leadership informs the Lord
            > Jesus Christ that they had waited long enough for Him and were now
            > taking matters into their own hands, making progress and not
            needing His
            > input then, thank you very much.
            >
            > While the Lord Jesus Christ is in and with "the least of these" I
            also
            > recall Proto-Priest Alexander Lebedeff's missive against the least
            of
            > these in the ROCOR, judging the least of these as pasted below in
            > italics from a previous post:
            >
            > So many of the posts here by those who have splintered (or are
            > considering splintering) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
            > Russia seem to ignore the consequences of their ending up in a
            > non-canonical splinter group, even though the adherents of that
            group
            > trumpet that they are the "True Orthodox."
            >
            > This reminds me so much of the croaking of frogs, each sitting in
            its
            > little pond, and asserting that their pond is the greatest, the
            > truest.
            >
            > One can envision a large lake, surrounded by a multitude of little
            > ponds, each connected to the lake and drawing water from it.
            >
            > But some ponds cut themselves off from the lake.
            >
            > What happens?
            >
            > They begin to dry up and lose the life-giving water that flows from
            > the lake.
            >
            > Pretty soon these ponds become simple puddles of muddy water.
            >
            > Yet there are still frogs on them, proclaiming their correctness and
            > righteousness.
            >
            > The fact is that the Orthodox Church -- the True Church of Christ --
            > consists not only of the community of the faithful that keep the
            > teachings of the Church unchanged.
            >
            > It is a family of canonical Churches, who mutually recognize each
            > other and are found in eucharistic communion. It is unity at the
            > Chalice that is the hallmark of the Church of Christ.
            >
            > ------
            >
            > The True Church of Christ, in Lebedev's words, must also consist of
            > those who do not keep the teachings of the Church unchanged. He
            wrote
            > that the True Church is founded on mutual recognition and
            eucharistic
            > communion, that is, on contract law, rather than on the Holy
            Spirit's
            > agency in the Holy Mysteries as related to unity in humble
            > self-examination and confession before the Holy Mysteries. If
            partaking
            > is true because of an agreement or an appearance, then the true
            church
            > to Lebedev, is an external, legal institution.
            >
            > Did you see it? Did you see Holy Mysteries disappear
            and "eucharistic
            > communion" replace it? I'd thought I'd returned to a Jesuit
            university
            > for just a moment. Did you see how unity at the Chalice, with the
            > Chalice emphasized over the Holy Mysteries symbolizes the outer
            > architectures and not the internal priorities of the Church's
            dogmas and
            > traditions? Did you see how he anticipated that the Church would now
            > include those who communed in a state of refusing to keep the
            teachings
            > of the Church unchanged? Those others, who think that to be
            important
            > are perishing frogs, by his lights.
            >
            > It appears that in his world, the Church is Lake Superior, and he
            > supposes that downstream ponds (his regard for parishes related to
            the
            > MP) could possibly cut themselves off from a river running into
            them.
            > Usually, the cut-off happens somewhere in the tributary connecting
            the
            > Lake and the Parish pool. However, with the MP, we have the
            > uber-polluted Lake Superior, not the Patriarch of Moscow and All
            > Russias, the trustee to God over Holy Russia. Rather, we have a
            trustee
            > to Putin over former KGB-led Russia. Ah, but why quibble over such
            > details? That would make us self-righteous frogs.
            >
            > Very well. There are worse symbols, since it was a plague of frogs
            at
            > some point with which God ratcheted up His humbling of Pharoah
            before
            > opening the Red Sea for his servants.
            >
            > If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the
            Protopriest
            > could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this
            forum
            > without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came before
            or
            > after the comments were made. This ought to reveal something of the
            > internal spirit of those who set up the facade of the One Act.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com> , morechoff@ wrote:
            > >
            > > From Interfax...
            > >
            > > Interview with Metropolitan Laurus given to Interfax.
            > >
            > > Michael Orechoff
            > >
            > > ----------
            > >
            > > 2007-06-05 10:34:00
            > >
            > > We hope our joint ministry and work will help to strengthen the
            > Orthodoxy
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > On May 17 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox
            Church
            > Outside of Russia signed the Act of Canonical Communion. A large
            > delegation led by ROCOR primate Metropolitan Laurus came to Moscow
            to
            > participate in the event. The guests visited many Moscow churches
            and
            > monasteries, went to the Korennaya monastery in Kursk, and honored
            many
            > shrines of Ukraine. Before leaving for the United States,
            Metropolitan
            > Laurus shared his impressions with Interfax-Religion.
            > >
            > >
            > > - The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
            is
            > about to end their visiting of Russia and Ukraine after the historic
            > reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What is your impression of
            what
            > you have seen?
            > >
            > > - If compared to my coming to Russia in 2004, during this visit we
            > have transparently seen dynamic development in church life. There
            much
            > more reopened churches and monasteries and they are all full of
            people.
            > When in Kursk, I was deeply impressed with the restored Korennaya
            Pustyn
            > Monastery full of joyful changes.
            > >
            > > I was glad to see that churches are built by different social
            groups
            > working together. It not only makes it quicker, but also stimulates
            > popular interest for the Orthodoxy. To my mind, this kind of
            cooperation
            > is very important not only for constructing churches and
            monasteries,
            > but also in educational and social work of the Church.
            > >
            > > Still the visit’s principal result has been our joint
            > celebration of the Eucharist both in Russia and Ukraine, which
            > demonstrated that we are the one body, the one spirit, and the one
            > Church and that the one Christ, our God, is with and within us.
            > >
            > > - Was were you thought and feelings during the ceremony of
            signing of
            > the Canonical Communion Act in the Christ the Savior’s?
            > >
            > > - At that historical moment I prayed, and so I do now, thanking
            God
            > for bringing the Russian Orthodox Church’s two branches to such a
            > unity confirmed by the Act. Finally we have achieved the
            possibility to
            > worship together and to join in one liturgy! It was an affecting
            moment
            > and many people were crying. We have been waiting for this minute
            for
            > many decades.
            > >
            > > - Clergy and people from the Russian Orthodox Church and the
            Russian
            > Orthodox Church Outside of Russia worshipped together and shared in
            the
            > same communion cup in Russian and Ukrainian churches. We all could
            see
            > many young people attending those services...
            > >
            > > - It is very joyful to see many young people and children going to
            > churches nowadays. They are brought up in a church manner so that
            they
            > may bring their children there too. It is very good that you
            endeavor to
            > introduce the Basic Orthodox Culture as a voluntary part of
            curriculum.
            > It affects the nation’s morals and leads people to a unity. It is
            > very important to Russia’s future.
            > >
            > > - Are there any distinctive features of the Orthodox witness in
            the
            > West?
            > >
            > > - We should keep the Orthodoxy and the spirit of the Holy Rus
            among
            > the diaspora. It was the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
            that
            > gives to our йmigrйs spiritual might, uniting them and saving
            > them from complete disappearing. We try to celebrate liturgies
            wherever
            > we can. We celebrate 25th and 50th anniversaries of our parishes. We
            > maintain our own traditions, but now it is especially important for
            us
            > to learn the traditions peculiar for Russia.
            > >
            > > - What will you say in your first sermon after you are back home?
            > >
            > > - Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act
            of
            > Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
            > believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression
            of
            > my visit to Russia and Ukraine.
            > >
            > > - The Church reunion achieved on May 17 is both a joyful event
            and a
            > great responsibility. How do you hope to serve to the united Russian
            > Orthodox Church?
            > >
            > > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole
            Orthodox
            > world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and lay
            people,
            > to be interested in what they do, their traditions, monastic life,
            > missionary, social and educational work. I hope that our joint
            ministry
            > and common work in the spirit of the love as commanded by Christ
            will
            > bring real fruits and will help to strengthen the holy Church.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            __
            > > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
            > free from AOL at AOL.com.
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • DDD
            Amen, Fr. Stefan--you have hit the nail right on the head! Orthodox Russia is being demonized now just like Orthodox Serbia was--by the U.S.! --Dimitra
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
              Amen, Fr. Stefan--you have hit the nail right on the head! Orthodox Russia is being demonized now just like Orthodox Serbia was--by the U.S.!

              --Dimitra Dwelley


              On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 18:53:14 -0000, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
              How strange... Mr. Woodson accuses Putin of "preparing to aim nuclear
              missiles at Europe" failing to admit that it is the USA (having
              bombed Serbia relentlessly, not stopping even on Easter Sunday, and
              killing among others, on that Pascha Day, innocent Orthodox children)
              that is now planning the chain of missiles along Russia's bordering
              countries in Europe! Why point out one without any mention of the
              other?

              The "architecture" which Mr. Woodson flips off cavalierly, treasures
              the Divine Liturgy celebrated in a timely manner and attended by
              hundreds of faithful Orthodox Christians who are regularly nurtured
              by the Grace of the Holy Spirit in the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist,
              something the Liberal Humanistic Western mindset can just not
              tolerate!

              NO SPIRITUAL FOOD? ...ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN Books, periodicals,
              magazines, dailies, tracts and newspapers abound in Russia, and
              Children are taught with, among hundreds of other publications, the
              Church Abroad's Zakon Boji (Law of God) of Father Seraphim
              Slobodskoy's blessed memory, building a firm foundation for continued
              Orthodox Christian growth! Monasteries are filled with monks and
              nuns, witnessing with their lives the rebirth of Orthodox spiritual
              life in Russia.

              The Shah of Iran, under who's administration that nation was sistered
              to the West in culture and friendship was unfairly blackened by the
              CIA and betrayed by the USA, opening the gates for revolt and turmoil
              in that region and the accent of Moslem Fundamentalist terrorism ...
              now Putin is targeted as a boogieman to be shunned and overthrown----
              FOR WHAT? No doubt for another round of LIBERAL HUMANIST ATHIESTIC
              BOLSHEVIC TERRORISM, to bleed Russia once and for all and to insure
              for the Atheist World that an Orthodox Nation should never prosper
              again!

              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Woodson"
              <singingmountains@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as
              > permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1)
              national
              > unity; and (2) lots of new architecture for the Church; and (3)
              numbers
              > of people standing in support of the ceremony on which the leaders
              have
              > a vested interest since they have swept so much under the carpet to
              set
              > up the whitewashed tomb of Moscow Patriarchate domination of the
              entire
              > church. The original Soviet plan for the Church is now complete, and
              > Putin is preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe.
              >
              > Metropolitan Laurus's interview had everything compliant in it with
              what
              > the RF and MP would like to hear and disseminate. Where were the
              > in-depth discussions of Russia's problems as we might once have
              read in
              > Orthodox Word to the diasporal parishes and seekers? The spiritual
              and
              > moral guidance? It was not pastoral but it was a political flattery
              of
              > the latest progress. No food, just blood-Red cotton candy.
              >
              > Also, he said:
              >
              > "Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
              > Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
              > believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression
              of
              > my visit to Russia and Ukraine."
              >
              > Too weird for me. United? All one has to do is read this list, talk
              to
              > other parishioners and/or former parishioners, and see that it is
              not
              > so. I'm not used to watching an obvious lie being told by the First
              > Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, however, it is not
              that
              > I did not expect it once he signed off on the worldly contract,
              binding
              > the church to the fine print that enshrined the political
              priorities of
              > the RF/MP regime above the Church.
              >
              > I am reminded again of the point in the short story by
              Dostoyevsky, "The
              > Grand Inquisitor" in which the church's leadership informs the Lord
              > Jesus Christ that they had waited long enough for Him and were now
              > taking matters into their own hands, making progress and not
              needing His
              > input then, thank you very much.
              >
              > While the Lord Jesus Christ is in and with "the least of these" I
              also
              > recall Proto-Priest Alexander Lebedeff's missive against the least
              of
              > these in the ROCOR, judging the least of these as pasted below in
              > italics from a previous post:
              >
              > So many of the posts here by those who have splintered (or are
              > considering splintering) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
              > Russia seem to ignore the consequences of their ending up in a
              > non-canonical splinter group, even though the adherents of that
              group
              > trumpet that they are the "True Orthodox."
              >
              > This reminds me so much of the croaking of frogs, each sitting in
              its
              > little pond, and asserting that their pond is the greatest, the
              > truest.
              >
              > One can envision a large lake, surrounded by a multitude of little
              > ponds, each connected to the lake and drawing water from it.
              >
              > But some ponds cut themselves off from the lake.
              >
              > What happens?
              >
              > They begin to dry up and lose the life-giving water that flows from
              > the lake.
              >
              > Pretty soon these ponds become simple puddles of muddy water.
              >
              > Yet there are still frogs on them, proclaiming their correctness and
              > righteousness.
              >
              > The fact is that the Orthodox Church -- the True Church of Christ --
              > consists not only of the community of the faithful that keep the
              > teachings of the Church unchanged.
              >
              > It is a family of canonical Churches, who mutually recognize each
              > other and are found in eucharistic communion. It is unity at the
              > Chalice that is the hallmark of the Church of Christ.
              >
              > ------
              >
              > The True Church of Christ, in Lebedev's words, must also consist of
              > those who do not keep the teachings of the Church unchanged. He
              wrote
              > that the True Church is founded on mutual recognition and
              eucharistic
              > communion, that is, on contract law, rather than on the Holy
              Spirit's
              > agency in the Holy Mysteries as related to unity in humble
              > self-examination and confession before the Holy Mysteries. If
              partaking
              > is true because of an agreement or an appearance, then the true
              church
              > to Lebedev, is an external, legal institution.
              >
              > Did you see it? Did you see Holy Mysteries disappear
              and "eucharistic
              > communion" replace it? I'd thought I'd returned to a Jesuit
              university
              > for just a moment. Did you see how unity at the Chalice, with the
              > Chalice emphasized over the Holy Mysteries symbolizes the outer
              > architectures and not the internal priorities of the Church's
              dogmas and
              > traditions? Did you see how he anticipated that the Church would now
              > include those who communed in a state of refusing to keep the
              teachings
              > of the Church unchanged? Those others, who think that to be
              important
              > are perishing frogs, by his lights.
              >
              > It appears that in his world, the Church is Lake Superior, and he
              > supposes that downstream ponds (his regard for parishes related to
              the
              > MP) could possibly cut themselves off from a river running into
              them.
              > Usually, the cut-off happens somewhere in the tributary connecting
              the
              > Lake and the Parish pool. However, with the MP, we have the
              > uber-polluted Lake Superior, not the Patriarch of Moscow and All
              > Russias, the trustee to God over Holy Russia. Rather, we have a
              trustee
              > to Putin over former KGB-led Russia. Ah, but why quibble over such
              > details? That would make us self-righteous frogs.
              >
              > Very well. There are worse symbols, since it was a plague of frogs
              at
              > some point with which God ratcheted up His humbling of Pharoah
              before
              > opening the Red Sea for his servants.
              >
              > If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the
              Protopriest
              > could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this
              forum
              > without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came before
              or
              > after the comments were made. This ought to reveal something of the
              > internal spirit of those who set up the facade of the One Act.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com> , morechoff@ wrote:
              > >
              > > From Interfax...
              > >
              > > Interview with Metropolitan Laurus given to Interfax.
              > >
              > > Michael Orechoff
              > >
              > > ----------
              > >
              > > 2007-06-05 10:34:00
              > >
              > > We hope our joint ministry and work will help to strengthen the
              > Orthodoxy
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On May 17 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox
              Church
              > Outside of Russia signed the Act of Canonical Communion. A large
              > delegation led by ROCOR primate Metropolitan Laurus came to Moscow
              to
              > participate in the event. The guests visited many Moscow churches
              and
              > monasteries, went to the Korennaya monastery in Kursk, and honored
              many
              > shrines of Ukraine. Before leaving for the United States,
              Metropolitan
              > Laurus shared his impressions with Interfax-Religion.
              > >
              > >
              > > - The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
              is
              > about to end their visiting of Russia and Ukraine after the historic
              > reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What is your impression of
              what
              > you have seen?
              > >
              > > - If compared to my coming to Russia in 2004, during this visit we
              > have transparently seen dynamic development in church life. There
              much
              > more reopened churches and monasteries and they are all full of
              people.
              > When in Kursk, I was deeply impressed with the restored Korennaya
              Pustyn
              > Monastery full of joyful changes.
              > >
              > > I was glad to see that churches are built by different social
              groups
              > working together. It not only makes it quicker, but also stimulates
              > popular interest for the Orthodoxy. To my mind, this kind of
              cooperation
              > is very important not only for constructing churches and
              monasteries,
              > but also in educational and social work of the Church.
              > >
              > > Still the visit’s principal result has been our joint
              > celebration of the Eucharist both in Russia and Ukraine, which
              > demonstrated that we are the one body, the one spirit, and the one
              > Church and that the one Christ, our God, is with and within us.
              > >
              > > - Was were you thought and feelings during the ceremony of
              signing of
              > the Canonical Communion Act in the Christ the Savior’s?
              > >
              > > - At that historical moment I prayed, and so I do now, thanking
              God
              > for bringing the Russian Orthodox Church’s two branches to such a
              > unity confirmed by the Act. Finally we have achieved the
              possibility to
              > worship together and to join in one liturgy! It was an affecting
              moment
              > and many people were crying. We have been waiting for this minute
              for
              > many decades.
              > >
              > > - Clergy and people from the Russian Orthodox Church and the
              Russian
              > Orthodox Church Outside of Russia worshipped together and shared in
              the
              > same communion cup in Russian and Ukrainian churches. We all could
              see
              > many young people attending those services...
              > >
              > > - It is very joyful to see many young people and children going to
              > churches nowadays. They are brought up in a church manner so that
              they
              > may bring their children there too. It is very good that you
              endeavor to
              > introduce the Basic Orthodox Culture as a voluntary part of
              curriculum.
              > It affects the nation’s morals and leads people to a unity. It is
              > very important to Russia’s future.
              > >
              > > - Are there any distinctive features of the Orthodox witness in
              the
              > West?
              > >
              > > - We should keep the Orthodoxy and the spirit of the Holy Rus
              among
              > the diaspora. It was the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
              that
              > gives to our йmigrйs spiritual might, uniting them and saving
              > them from complete disappearing. We try to celebrate liturgies
              wherever
              > we can. We celebrate 25th and 50th anniversaries of our parishes. We
              > maintain our own traditions, but now it is especially important for
              us
              > to learn the traditions peculiar for Russia.
              > >
              > > - What will you say in your first sermon after you are back home?
              > >
              > > - Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act
              of
              > Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
              > believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression
              of
              > my visit to Russia and Ukraine.
              > >
              > > - The Church reunion achieved on May 17 is both a joyful event
              and a
              > great responsibility. How do you hope to serve to the united Russian
              > Orthodox Church?
              > >
              > > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole
              Orthodox
              > world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and lay
              people,
              > to be interested in what they do, their traditions, monastic life,
              > missionary, social and educational work. I hope that our joint
              ministry
              > and common work in the spirit of the love as commanded by Christ
              will
              > bring real fruits and will help to strengthen the holy Church.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              __________________________________________________________
              __
              > > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
              > free from AOL at AOL.com.
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Michael Woodson
              Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and evading its facts: I d encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact that
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
                Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                evading its facts:

                I'd encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact
                that Metropolitan Laurus's statement, if set forth accurately by
                Interfax, said that the ROCOR parishioners were in joyful union
                regarding the annexation. That was a knowing falsehood. Across the
                globe significant numbers are in separation from the movement of
                passion that marked the One Act, a lawyerly document if there ever
                was one.

                If you do a deal with the devil, especially when he is bathed in his
                strange light, you will defend him to the death to keep from
                admitting the truth about who you've married. Be men and women and
                deal with the lie publicly stated to Interfax by Met. Laurus.

                Lies come from one father, and it is not the One of the Holy Trinity.
                And you who adopt that lie are advocates for a lie. That is your
                decision from which you can repent at any time. You hate to hear
                that, don't you? Why should I delude my conscience, see a lie and
                call it a truth to comfort you? That is what the Interfax interview
                was all about.

                Either the ROCOR parishioners were united behind the One Act as
                Metropolitan said, or they were not. The evidence says they were not.
                His Interfax quote, if accurate, says they were.

                Now let's look at what you say changed the spiritual climate in
                Russia. Was it the government of the USSR? No, it was the fresh air
                of freedom from that regime, true? Finally, freedom of worship had
                arrived. But strange thing, the initiator of this freedom of worship
                has come out and spoken lamentations to Russia for the fall of the
                USSR and glorified its "heroes," including his atheist spiritual
                father, Yuri Andropov.

                You see, free speech is dangerous to the devil. To God, it's not a
                problem. To God, what's true is true and He will outlast all the
                lies, errors and even truths told by men and the devil. Perfect Truth
                will prevail, even despite ordained clergy who lie or who are
                deceived and suborn lies.

                However, to innocent folks who don't know better, a lie might be
                bought as the truth. For that reason, free speech is a gift that has
                enabled the ROCOR over the years to challenge the Soviet regime. That
                is, until it let down its guard thinking that regime had completely
                disappeared. Well, it didn't, and St. John of Shanghai and San
                Francisco foretold that it would not give up so easily; that it would
                pursue the Church even through the change of external appearances.
                That it has done. It won a major objective last month.

                And the regime has taken to representing outright lies over and over
                again.

                Fr. Stefan has taken again to bashing the United States for
                collateral damage when Serbian forces did not stop killing on Pascha
                either, and, when Serbian forces themselves also killed people in
                collateral crossfires. Any representation that they are boyscouts is
                just so absurd and deluded as to be dismissed out of hand. Not once
                have I justified US conduct in challenging Putin's regime. Yet every
                time I have so challenged, Fr. Stefan comes back with Serbia as his
                passionate smoke machine which he uses to condemn the West and fail
                the first test of Orthodox Christianity: to take responsibility for
                the wrongs of its own peoples. If he'd do that, and if Putin would do
                that, it would mean they would be leading with humility, which Abba
                Nikon taught was the way to go. Humility: the Queen of Virtues, as
                the Theotokos is the Queen of the Church. But no, instead, the old
                man that Putin represents with prideful blamings of the West, missile
                threats are things you can't face without following his lead and
                blaming the US.

                The US isn't the point. It isn't vying for unity with any church. And
                if it were, two wrongs don't make a right. Don't point at another
                wrongdoer to justify the one which should know better. Orthodox
                conduct in Russia and abroad is the point. Would the Lord Jesus
                Christ approve of the nationalist preparation for war and the
                glorification of the USSR that made so many of the martyrs who
                worship before God right now in the Church Triumphant, calling out
                for justice? Read the Revelation. Has that justice been fulfilled? Is
                it fulfilled when Putin and Alexei II glorify the Soviet Union and
                lament its passing?

                I suggest that many, many people will be upset that they must face
                the lies they have swallowed and called it the One Act of Canonical
                Communion. When you call the Holy Mysteries something other than they
                already were, you are not doing God's work. Either the Holy Mysteries
                in the ROCA and in their feeding to the much suffering Russian people
                were more than any canon could contain, or, canon law is greater then
                them such that it should dictate that they be redefined by a
                contractual relationship that puts an organization born in atheism
                and never having denounced its glorification by Putin, over the
                Church.

                There is one conclusion: we are in the presence of a false prophet
                and a false czar. Russia has not reached the point that it is a
                nation that leads the world spiritually. St. Seraphim's prophecy is
                not served yet. When it is, Russia will lead spiritually, not in
                worldly ways. And then, all of those worldly things will be added
                unto Russia as God gives to her need.

                We're not there yet, as lies in the name of light prove.
              • Melissa Bushunow
                Great post! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
                  Great post!


                  On Jun 6, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Michael Woodson wrote:

                  > Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                  > evading its facts:
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • George
                  ... by signifiigant do you mean all 30-40 schistmatics?
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 6, 2007
                    On Wednesday, June 06, 2007, at 06:51PM, "Michael Woodson" <singingmountains@...> wrote:
                    >Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                    >evading its facts:
                    >
                    >I'd encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact
                    >that Metropolitan Laurus's statement, if set forth accurately by
                    >Interfax, said that the ROCOR parishioners were in joyful union
                    >regarding the annexation. That was a knowing falsehood. Across the
                    >globe significant numbers are in separation from the movement of
                    >passion that marked the One Act, a lawyerly document if there ever
                    >was one.

                    by signifiigant do you mean all 30-40 schistmatics?
                  • Mary Marczyk
                    MIchael, What a fantastic post!!!!!!!!! Thank you so much. Mary ... From: Michael Woodson To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                      MIchael,

                      What a fantastic post!!!!!!!!! Thank you so much.

                      Mary
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Michael Woodson
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 8:32 AM
                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Metropolitan Laurus


                      Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                      evading its facts:


                      Visit Your Group
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                      .

                      I'd encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact
                      that Metropolitan Laurus's statement, if set forth accurately by
                      Interfax, said that the ROCOR parishioners were in joyful union
                      regarding the annexation. That was a knowing falsehood. Across the
                      globe significant numbers are in separation from the movement of
                      passion that marked the One Act, a lawyerly document if there ever
                      was one.

                      If you do a deal with the devil, especially when he is bathed in his
                      strange light, you will defend him to the death to keep from
                      admitting the truth about who you've married. Be men and women and
                      deal with the lie publicly stated to Interfax by Met. Laurus.

                      Lies come from one father, and it is not the One of the Holy Trinity.
                      And you who adopt that lie are advocates for a lie. That is your
                      decision from which you can repent at any time. You hate to hear
                      that, don't you? Why should I delude my conscience, see a lie and
                      call it a truth to comfort you? That is what the Interfax interview
                      was all about.

                      Either the ROCOR parishioners were united behind the One Act as
                      Metropolitan said, or they were not. The evidence says they were not.
                      His Interfax quote, if accurate, says they were.

                      Now let's look at what you say changed the spiritual climate in
                      Russia. Was it the government of the USSR? No, it was the fresh air
                      of freedom from that regime, true? Finally, freedom of worship had
                      arrived. But strange thing, the initiator of this freedom of worship
                      has come out and spoken lamentations to Russia for the fall of the
                      USSR and glorified its "heroes," including his atheist spiritual
                      father, Yuri Andropov.

                      You see, free speech is dangerous to the devil. To God, it's not a
                      problem. To God, what's true is true and He will outlast all the
                      lies, errors and even truths told by men and the devil. Perfect Truth
                      will prevail, even despite ordained clergy who lie or who are
                      deceived and suborn lies.

                      However, to innocent folks who don't know better, a lie might be
                      bought as the truth. For that reason, free speech is a gift that has
                      enabled the ROCOR over the years to challenge the Soviet regime. That
                      is, until it let down its guard thinking that regime had completely
                      disappeared. Well, it didn't, and St. John of Shanghai and San
                      Francisco foretold that it would not give up so easily; that it would
                      pursue the Church even through the change of external appearances.
                      That it has done. It won a major objective last month.

                      And the regime has taken to representing outright lies over and over
                      again.

                      Fr. Stefan has taken again to bashing the United States for
                      collateral damage when Serbian forces did not stop killing on Pascha
                      either, and, when Serbian forces themselves also killed people in
                      collateral crossfires. Any representation that they are boyscouts is
                      just so absurd and deluded as to be dismissed out of hand. Not once
                      have I justified US conduct in challenging Putin's regime. Yet every
                      time I have so challenged, Fr. Stefan comes back with Serbia as his
                      passionate smoke machine which he uses to condemn the West and fail
                      the first test of Orthodox Christianity: to take responsibility for
                      the wrongs of its own peoples. If he'd do that, and if Putin would do
                      that, it would mean they would be leading with humility, which Abba
                      Nikon taught was the way to go. Humility: the Queen of Virtues, as
                      the Theotokos is the Queen of the Church. But no, instead, the old
                      man that Putin represents with prideful blamings of the West, missile
                      threats are things you can't face without following his lead and
                      blaming the US.

                      The US isn't the point. It isn't vying for unity with any church. And
                      if it were, two wrongs don't make a right. Don't point at another
                      wrongdoer to justify the one which should know better. Orthodox
                      conduct in Russia and abroad is the point. Would the Lord Jesus
                      Christ approve of the nationalist preparation for war and the
                      glorification of the USSR that made so many of the martyrs who
                      worship before God right now in the Church Triumphant, calling out
                      for justice? Read the Revelation. Has that justice been fulfilled? Is
                      it fulfilled when Putin and Alexei II glorify the Soviet Union and
                      lament its passing?

                      I suggest that many, many people will be upset that they must face
                      the lies they have swallowed and called it the One Act of Canonical
                      Communion. When you call the Holy Mysteries something other than they
                      already were, you are not doing God's work. Either the Holy Mysteries
                      in the ROCA and in their feeding to the much suffering Russian people
                      were more than any canon could contain, or, canon law is greater then
                      them such that it should dictate that they be redefined by a
                      contractual relationship that puts an organization born in atheism
                      and never having denounced its glorification by Putin, over the
                      Church.

                      There is one conclusion: we are in the presence of a false prophet
                      and a false czar. Russia has not reached the point that it is a
                      nation that leads the world spiritually. St. Seraphim's prophecy is
                      not served yet. When it is, Russia will lead spiritually, not in
                      worldly ways. And then, all of those worldly things will be added
                      unto Russia as God gives to her need.

                      We're not there yet, as lies in the name of light prove.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • misha.1947
                      Propaganda, fanatic xenophobic propaganda. By significant numbers do you mean the couple of hundred misled souls in the handful of schismatic anti-ROCOR
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                        Propaganda, fanatic xenophobic propaganda.

                        By "significant numbers" do you mean the couple of hundred misled
                        souls in the handful of schismatic anti-ROCOR cults that have formed
                        in the past couple of years?

                        Reader Michael Malloy
                        Columbus OH

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Woodson"
                        <singingmountains@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                        > evading its facts:
                        >
                        > I'd encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact
                        > that Metropolitan Laurus's statement, if set forth accurately by
                        > Interfax, said that the ROCOR parishioners were in joyful union
                        > regarding the annexation. That was a knowing falsehood. Across the
                        > globe significant numbers are in separation from the movement of
                        > passion that marked the One Act, a lawyerly document if there ever
                        > was one.
                        >
                        > If you do a deal with the devil, especially when he is bathed in his
                        > strange light, you will defend him to the death to keep from
                        > admitting the truth about who you've married. Be men and women and
                        > deal with the lie publicly stated to Interfax by Met. Laurus.
                        >
                        > Lies come from one father, and it is not the One of the Holy Trinity.
                        > And you who adopt that lie are advocates for a lie. That is your
                        > decision from which you can repent at any time. You hate to hear
                        > that, don't you? Why should I delude my conscience, see a lie and
                        > call it a truth to comfort you? That is what the Interfax interview
                        > was all about.
                        >
                        > Either the ROCOR parishioners were united behind the One Act as
                        > Metropolitan said, or they were not. The evidence says they were not.
                        > His Interfax quote, if accurate, says they were.
                        >
                        > Now let's look at what you say changed the spiritual climate in
                        > Russia. Was it the government of the USSR? No, it was the fresh air
                        > of freedom from that regime, true? Finally, freedom of worship had
                        > arrived. But strange thing, the initiator of this freedom of worship
                        > has come out and spoken lamentations to Russia for the fall of the
                        > USSR and glorified its "heroes," including his atheist spiritual
                        > father, Yuri Andropov.
                        >
                        > You see, free speech is dangerous to the devil. To God, it's not a
                        > problem. To God, what's true is true and He will outlast all the
                        > lies, errors and even truths told by men and the devil. Perfect Truth
                        > will prevail, even despite ordained clergy who lie or who are
                        > deceived and suborn lies.
                        >
                        > However, to innocent folks who don't know better, a lie might be
                        > bought as the truth. For that reason, free speech is a gift that has
                        > enabled the ROCOR over the years to challenge the Soviet regime. That
                        > is, until it let down its guard thinking that regime had completely
                        > disappeared. Well, it didn't, and St. John of Shanghai and San
                        > Francisco foretold that it would not give up so easily; that it would
                        > pursue the Church even through the change of external appearances.
                        > That it has done. It won a major objective last month.
                        >
                        > And the regime has taken to representing outright lies over and over
                        > again.
                        >
                        > Fr. Stefan has taken again to bashing the United States for
                        > collateral damage when Serbian forces did not stop killing on Pascha
                        > either, and, when Serbian forces themselves also killed people in
                        > collateral crossfires. Any representation that they are boyscouts is
                        > just so absurd and deluded as to be dismissed out of hand. Not once
                        > have I justified US conduct in challenging Putin's regime. Yet every
                        > time I have so challenged, Fr. Stefan comes back with Serbia as his
                        > passionate smoke machine which he uses to condemn the West and fail
                        > the first test of Orthodox Christianity: to take responsibility for
                        > the wrongs of its own peoples. If he'd do that, and if Putin would do
                        > that, it would mean they would be leading with humility, which Abba
                        > Nikon taught was the way to go. Humility: the Queen of Virtues, as
                        > the Theotokos is the Queen of the Church. But no, instead, the old
                        > man that Putin represents with prideful blamings of the West, missile
                        > threats are things you can't face without following his lead and
                        > blaming the US.
                        >
                        > The US isn't the point. It isn't vying for unity with any church. And
                        > if it were, two wrongs don't make a right. Don't point at another
                        > wrongdoer to justify the one which should know better. Orthodox
                        > conduct in Russia and abroad is the point. Would the Lord Jesus
                        > Christ approve of the nationalist preparation for war and the
                        > glorification of the USSR that made so many of the martyrs who
                        > worship before God right now in the Church Triumphant, calling out
                        > for justice? Read the Revelation. Has that justice been fulfilled? Is
                        > it fulfilled when Putin and Alexei II glorify the Soviet Union and
                        > lament its passing?
                        >
                        > I suggest that many, many people will be upset that they must face
                        > the lies they have swallowed and called it the One Act of Canonical
                        > Communion. When you call the Holy Mysteries something other than they
                        > already were, you are not doing God's work. Either the Holy Mysteries
                        > in the ROCA and in their feeding to the much suffering Russian people
                        > were more than any canon could contain, or, canon law is greater then
                        > them such that it should dictate that they be redefined by a
                        > contractual relationship that puts an organization born in atheism
                        > and never having denounced its glorification by Putin, over the
                        > Church.
                        >
                        > There is one conclusion: we are in the presence of a false prophet
                        > and a false czar. Russia has not reached the point that it is a
                        > nation that leads the world spiritually. St. Seraphim's prophecy is
                        > not served yet. When it is, Russia will lead spiritually, not in
                        > worldly ways. And then, all of those worldly things will be added
                        > unto Russia as God gives to her need.
                        >
                        > We're not there yet, as lies in the name of light prove.
                        >
                      • (matushka) Ann Lardas
                        ... Wow, an accusation and characterization in the very first sentence! I am neither obfuscating nor evading. I am explaining to you that you are wrong, and
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Woodson"
                          <singingmountains@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                          > evading its facts:

                          Wow, an accusation and characterization in the very first sentence!

                          I am neither obfuscating nor evading. I am explaining to you that you
                          are wrong, and asking under whose influence or for whose good you are
                          distorting the Metropolitan's interview and actions so. It is clear
                          that you are not in ROCOR, so I think it's valid to ask who is
                          instructing you in Orthodoxy, so that we can consider the source.

                          You still haven't told us.

                          Michael, who is your bishop, and, is he Orthodox?

                          >
                          > I'd encourage anyone to reread the message and deal with the fact
                          > that Metropolitan Laurus's statement, if set forth accurately by
                          > Interfax, said that the ROCOR parishioners were in joyful union
                          > regarding the annexation. That was a knowing falsehood.

                          No, it wasn't.

                          While some people still have qualms, those who've made the effort to
                          look into the arguements in favor of canonical communion, and who
                          have read the documents at the ROCOR web site and who have argued
                          about them over tea at trapeza and at friends houses and have prayed
                          together about it have reached a consensus, that things might not be
                          perfect but that the time to be together is now.

                          What we need is a Road to Emmeus kind of talk where someone better
                          skilled than me takes people through the objections ROCOR has had to
                          the MP over the years and explains how each was overcome.

                          Metropolitan Philaret was upset that children were not being
                          baptized, communed, or catechized. Now, the churches are full of
                          children, bookstore kiosks sell religious books all over Russia, and
                          there is religious education in the schools. (Note that the
                          Metropolitan thought that the MP clergy were depriving the children
                          of Holy Communion. That must mean that he was convinced that they
                          could provide it to them.)

                          We were upset, as was so much of the Orthodox world, at the MP's
                          participation in the World Council of Churches, were some truly hinky
                          things took place, including walking through aboriginial fire and
                          people doing liturgical dance with incense. When the Russians
                          themselves saw these things, they brought their concerns to the
                          Church, and now the MP does not participate in joint prayer with the
                          non-Orthodox. Further, they restructured the voting structure of the
                          WCC so that the Orthodox did not have to rubber stamp the concensus
                          of the Protestants, but rather could bring up troubling issues, like
                          the ordination of women and the secularization of Europe.

                          We would rather that the MP not be part of the WCC. And, they
                          understand this. But they are under pressure from the Ecumenical
                          Patriarchate, which is trying to take Estonian parishes from Moscow,
                          and from the non-Orthodox religions which wish to make inroads in
                          Russia, and who misportray Russia and misconstrew her actions through
                          various international agencies the world over. Plus, they feel that
                          Orthodoxy has an obligation to shine as a light to the rest of the
                          world, reminding the rest of the Christian churches how they used to
                          be and how they should be by questioning their emminently
                          questionable decisions.

                          This is an area we have all agreed to work on later, now that Moscow
                          does not pray with the non-Orthodox at these things. And, now that
                          Met. Laurus has a seat on their council, there is someone to make the
                          argument against participation in the WCC to the hierarchs of the
                          Moscow Patriarchate in person, which thing did not exist before. It's
                          one thing to read a polemical argument in the foreign press attacking
                          your bishops for something they've done for years. It's another thing
                          to hear a brother bishop, with whom you have prayed for many hours,
                          outline his concerns about the effects of a choice that was
                          originally made when the Moscow Patriarchate did not have as much
                          free will as it does now. Now, we can argue as brothers rather than
                          preach as outsiders. I think that, in the long run, this will do more
                          good.

                          Then there is the matter of the glorification of the New Martyrs and
                          of the Royal Martyrs. The late Fr. Roman Lukianov spoke to me at
                          length about the glorification of the new martyrs in Russia, how it
                          took place at the request of the people until the hierarchs were
                          overwhelmed and gave in; how at the Glorification, during the
                          procession, because of the press of the crowd, only so many people
                          could leave for the krestny khod (procession around the church), but
                          mostly those hierarchs who previously had been opposed were among
                          those selected to process; and how the skies opened and they were
                          drenched to the bone by rains when this happened, but the sun shined
                          brightly upon the day and event after.

                          There was a time when the idea of the Moscow Patriarchate glorifying
                          the new martyrs and the royal martyrs was unthinkable. Now they have
                          done both, and icons of these saints are everywhere, and are
                          venerated and reverenced. I know there are people who have their own
                          list of saints who were not glorified at the service, and who have
                          their podrasniks in a twist over this. But this is a matter that can
                          be hashed out later. We ourselved did not have a comprehensive list
                          of all those martyred by communists for their faith, because more
                          have been martyred since the Glorification, and because there were so
                          many millions killed.

                          But the services at Butovo, where our hierarchs and the hierarchs of
                          the Moscow Patriarchate together concecrated an altar at the scene of
                          so many martyrdoms, is healing for all those years of silence, and
                          silence which was coerced rather than freely offered.

                          Which brings us to the issue of repentance.

                          Patriarch Alexis read a declaration of repentance, some years back,
                          which someone might be good enough to post. And, that's important, it
                          makes all other things possible.

                          But more than that.

                          His life has been an act of repentance. He privately put away clergy
                          who were not truly clergy. He didn't just glorify the New Marytrs, he
                          built them churches. He didn't just glorify the Royal Martyrs, he
                          turned the place of their martyrdom into a holy place of pilgrimage.

                          As for the participation of President Putin and the Mayor of Moscow
                          and the like in the services, I ask you: how is this anything short
                          of a miracle? Someone circulated photos of the security guards who
                          would be outside the service, to derride them, or to derride those
                          who feel the need for them. But, I visited Moscow in 1981, because I
                          figured that once a certain seminarian proposed, if I accepted, I'd
                          never be let in as the wife of a ROCOR priest, so I went as an
                          unmarried college student with three whole semesters of Russian under
                          her belt. My brother and I did not commune there, but after much
                          negociation with our tour guide we attended Vigil and Liturgy for
                          Theophany. Outside the church we attended were six goons, huge men in
                          black turtlenecks, wearing cameras. They were not there to protect
                          the faithful. Now, in this day of attacks by Chechen separatists, the
                          government is standing watch so the people can pray, rather than
                          preventing them from doing so.

                          Someone posted an article complaining that a Russian military
                          helicopter would be used to hoist the cupola onto a newly built
                          church, as if this were bad, as if the military connection to the
                          chopper would somehow contaminate the church from the cupola on down.
                          But my late godfather told about how monks were chased from their
                          mountain hiding places by copter (it's at the back of Ivan
                          Andreev's "Russia's Catacomb Saints"). And so now, if the copters are
                          being used to glorify God and adorn His churches instead of to chase
                          the faithful and persecute believes, how is this anything but cause
                          for rejoicing?

                          It is just wrong to neglect all the good that has taken place in the
                          past fifteen years. Things are not as they had been. And if you, not
                          speaking Russian and not having visited there, insist that things are
                          otherwise, why should we believe you? You are very good at asserting
                          things but very bad about explaining the provenence of your ideas.
                          Certainly, though, your orientation is Western, and as St. Mark of
                          Ephesus said, "The teachings of the western fathers I neither
                          recognize nor accept. I surmise that they are corrupted. There can be
                          no compromise in the things of the Orthodox faith."

                          And, our bishops have not compromised.

                          They have waited until the Moscow Patriarchate showed through their
                          words and their actions that we are of one accord about the things
                          that matter most. When that happened, there was no further reason for
                          us to be separated. As St. John Chrystostom said, The Church is
                          established not to sow division among those who gather within her,
                          but to gather those who are divided."

                          This, our bishops have done, to the glory of God.

                          It is significant that the Act was signed on the feast of the
                          Ascension of our Lord, who then told the disciples to tarry in
                          Jerusalem. First, they all had to raise their eyes to heaven
                          together. Then, they spent ten days getting to know each other,
                          before the descent of the Holy Spirit in tongues of fire, so that
                          they would have friends with which to share the burden of
                          enlightening the whole world.

                          And Michael, that is the mission of the Orthodox Church. Not to guard
                          something tiny and fragile, a "candle in the wind." No. It is to
                          shine the light of Christ upon the world, not under a bushel but upon
                          a candlestick. We have been shielding our flame for a long time now.
                          I think that joining with Moscow will help us get back into active
                          missionizing, reaching out to the whole world, and not just to those
                          whom someone has deemed to be holy enough already.

                          God wishes salvation not just for those who are already Orthodox, but
                          for the whole world. And it is our job to live in such a way that
                          people want what we have. It is our job to know our faith so we can
                          explain it to them. It is our job to remind people of what their
                          faiths used to teach, so that these things are not lost, so that the
                          Roman Catholics and Protestants and Wiccans and unchurched can regain
                          what they had foolishly rejected.

                          Our job, up until May 17, was to "hold fast to what we were given" so
                          that Russia would not lose its treasure. Now the Russians are telling
                          us that the whole world needs help. The world rejects Christ, because
                          they have not seen His teachings in action. Our job now is to fast
                          and to pray, to love and to teach, to turn our homes and parishes
                          into abodes worthy of God Himself, so that others will see and be
                          drawn to the light.

                          We can't do that if we are busy judging our bishops and taking upon
                          ourselves their rights and duties.

                          The interview with Metropolitan Laurus was beautiful.
                          Your attempts to depict it as otherwise were ugly.
                          We are supposed to seek that which is beautiful and edifying.

                          I do not know whom you represent, or who has instructed you, that you
                          say and write the things that you do. But I know your misguided
                          analysis of the Metropolitan's words in now way reflect the teachings
                          or the history of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, nor
                          do they take into account "the truth of things" as they stand today.

                          It is not to late for you to change your course.
                          Please read the article from the ROCOR website which I posted here.

                          In Christ,
                          Matushka Ann Lardas
                        • gene703
                          Thank you Melissa for pointing this out, The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that is being obfuscated is 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                            Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,

                            The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that is being obfuscated is

                            10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
                            ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
                            WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
                            WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
                            WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?

                            Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10 years ago.

                            Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to be a bit more permanent shall we say ?

                            By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
                            http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
                            Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.

                            I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia. Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks. Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?

                            Gene T

                            PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr. Lebedeff himself.

                            PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

                            Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...> wrote:
                            Great post!

                            On Jun 6, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Michael Woodson wrote:

                            > Just a note to those responding to my post and obfuscating and
                            > evading its facts:
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            ---------------------------------
                            Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
                            Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • boulia_1
                            This is thorough and beautiful, Matushka. Now if only Michael, Mike, Melissa and all threst of them will read it with open eyes and open hearts. --Elizabeth
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                              This is thorough and beautiful, Matushka. Now if only
                              Michael, "Mike," Melissa and all threst of them will read it with
                              open eyes and open hearts.


                              --Elizabeth Ledkovsky


                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "(matushka) Ann Lardas"
                              <matanna@...> wrote:
                              >> I am neither obfuscating nor evading. I am explaining to you that
                              you
                              > are wrong, and asking under whose influence or for whose good you
                              are
                              > distorting the Metropolitan's interview and actions so. It is clear
                              > that you are not in ROCOR, so I think it's valid to ask who is
                              > instructing you in Orthodoxy, so that we can consider the source.
                              >
                              > You still haven't told us.
                              >
                              > Michael, who is your bishop, and, is he Orthodox?
                              >
                              > > .... remainder deleted for brevity...
                            • boulia_1
                              Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a more informed opinion.
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
                                been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
                                more informed opinion.

                                As for this bit of eloquence:

                                > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                >

                                ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
                                else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
                                It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
                                that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
                                longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

                                The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
                                goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
                                the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
                                FACT COME.

                                We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
                                example), really we do!




                                In Christ,
                                Elizabeth Ledkovsky




                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
                                >
                                > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
                                is being obfuscated is
                                >
                                > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
                                > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
                                > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
                                > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
                                > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
                                >
                                > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
                                sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
                                proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
                                of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
                                something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
                                years ago.
                                >
                                > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
                                average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
                                move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
                                be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
                                >
                                > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
                                skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
                                Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
                                next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
                                career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
                                molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
                                senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
                                elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
                                very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
                                >
                                http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
                                > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
                                real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
                                mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
                                >
                                > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                >
                                > Gene T
                                >
                                > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
                                really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
                                Lebedeff himself.
                                >
                                > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Carol
                                What I find interesting, is: **In the Prayer For The Living** in one part of the prayer we can all join and say: And first remember Thy Holy Catholic and
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                  What I find interesting, is: **In the Prayer For The Living** in one part of the prayer we can all join and say: "And first remember Thy Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, Which thou has , provided by thy precious blood, and establish and strengthen, and expand, increase, pacify,and keep her unconquerable, by the gates of hades; (calm the dissensions of the churches, quench the ragings of the nations, and quickly destroy and uproot the rising of heresy , and bring them to nought by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT")

                                  We always pray this and have prayed it, are the prayers for nothing do they not mean anything? What are we thinking when we pray that? How does it fit with the merger?

                                  Maybe God has plans we do not know and perhaps things will get better and the ROC will turn for the better? I know it does not look like it now, But God can perform miracles! I do not like thie idea, either and do not trust President Putin, one bit, and it is not fair to say it, but I just do not feel good about it, BUT, I must keep my faith that God is in control, somehow, and will help us.... I think he wants to run the world, but God can only know if I am right or wrong and pray I am wrong... I think he could be more of athreat thean Sudam Hussien ever was. maybe even Osama Bin laden and perhaps they are in together? These are my thoughts, ONLY< and no evidence so pray to be wrong.....The church being under the government rule is not good, at all, in Russia, but it is,, and we are now merged, and other than run away, we must pray, I guess?? We have always prayed for Russia, and we pray for the schism to be healed, and for the heretics to be stopped. Have we prayed just for something to do, or did we really mean it? Maybe they are not ready yet, but things can change. I pray not for the worse, and yes, I do see how dangerous this can be, but do we flee the church and run,, and hind, or try to stay together and be strong in the face of this? We may be surprised, and God has a plan( as mentioned before....) I still think: "Together we stand;divided we fall"

                                  In Christ,

                                  Katherine
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Michael Woodson
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 11:23 AM
                                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with Metropolitan Laurus



                                  It is clear that the measure of orthodoxy and spiritual progress as
                                  permitted by the Moscow Patriarchate in this interview is (1) national
                                  unity; and (2) lots of new architecture for the Church; and (3) numbers
                                  of people standing in support of the ceremony on which the leaders have
                                  a vested interest since they have swept so much under the carpet to set
                                  up the whitewashed tomb of Moscow Patriarchate domination of the entire
                                  church. The original Soviet plan for the Church is now complete, and
                                  Putin is preparing to aim nuclear missiles at Europe.

                                  Metropolitan Laurus's interview had everything compliant in it with what
                                  the RF and MP would like to hear and disseminate. Where were the
                                  in-depth discussions of Russia's problems as we might once have read in
                                  Orthodox Word to the diasporal parishes and seekers? The spiritual and
                                  moral guidance? It was not pastoral but it was a political flattery of
                                  the latest progress. No food, just blood-Red cotton candy.

                                  Also, he said:

                                  "Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
                                  Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
                                  believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
                                  my visit to Russia and Ukraine."

                                  Too weird for me. United? All one has to do is read this list, talk to
                                  other parishioners and/or former parishioners, and see that it is not
                                  so. I'm not used to watching an obvious lie being told by the First
                                  Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, however, it is not that
                                  I did not expect it once he signed off on the worldly contract, binding
                                  the church to the fine print that enshrined the political priorities of
                                  the RF/MP regime above the Church.

                                  I am reminded again of the point in the short story by Dostoyevsky, "The
                                  Grand Inquisitor" in which the church's leadership informs the Lord
                                  Jesus Christ that they had waited long enough for Him and were now
                                  taking matters into their own hands, making progress and not needing His
                                  input then, thank you very much.

                                  While the Lord Jesus Christ is in and with "the least of these" I also
                                  recall Proto-Priest Alexander Lebedeff's missive against the least of
                                  these in the ROCOR, judging the least of these as pasted below in
                                  italics from a previous post:

                                  So many of the posts here by those who have splintered (or are
                                  considering splintering) from the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
                                  Russia seem to ignore the consequences of their ending up in a
                                  non-canonical splinter group, even though the adherents of that group
                                  trumpet that they are the "True Orthodox."

                                  This reminds me so much of the croaking of frogs, each sitting in its
                                  little pond, and asserting that their pond is the greatest, the
                                  truest.

                                  One can envision a large lake, surrounded by a multitude of little
                                  ponds, each connected to the lake and drawing water from it.

                                  But some ponds cut themselves off from the lake.

                                  What happens?

                                  They begin to dry up and lose the life-giving water that flows from
                                  the lake.

                                  Pretty soon these ponds become simple puddles of muddy water.

                                  Yet there are still frogs on them, proclaiming their correctness and
                                  righteousness.

                                  The fact is that the Orthodox Church -- the True Church of Christ --
                                  consists not only of the community of the faithful that keep the
                                  teachings of the Church unchanged.

                                  It is a family of canonical Churches, who mutually recognize each
                                  other and are found in eucharistic communion. It is unity at the
                                  Chalice that is the hallmark of the Church of Christ.

                                  ------

                                  The True Church of Christ, in Lebedev's words, must also consist of
                                  those who do not keep the teachings of the Church unchanged. He wrote
                                  that the True Church is founded on mutual recognition and eucharistic
                                  communion, that is, on contract law, rather than on the Holy Spirit's
                                  agency in the Holy Mysteries as related to unity in humble
                                  self-examination and confession before the Holy Mysteries. If partaking
                                  is true because of an agreement or an appearance, then the true church
                                  to Lebedev, is an external, legal institution.

                                  Did you see it? Did you see Holy Mysteries disappear and "eucharistic
                                  communion" replace it? I'd thought I'd returned to a Jesuit university
                                  for just a moment. Did you see how unity at the Chalice, with the
                                  Chalice emphasized over the Holy Mysteries symbolizes the outer
                                  architectures and not the internal priorities of the Church's dogmas and
                                  traditions? Did you see how he anticipated that the Church would now
                                  include those who communed in a state of refusing to keep the teachings
                                  of the Church unchanged? Those others, who think that to be important
                                  are perishing frogs, by his lights.

                                  It appears that in his world, the Church is Lake Superior, and he
                                  supposes that downstream ponds (his regard for parishes related to the
                                  MP) could possibly cut themselves off from a river running into them.
                                  Usually, the cut-off happens somewhere in the tributary connecting the
                                  Lake and the Parish pool. However, with the MP, we have the
                                  uber-polluted Lake Superior, not the Patriarch of Moscow and All
                                  Russias, the trustee to God over Holy Russia. Rather, we have a trustee
                                  to Putin over former KGB-led Russia. Ah, but why quibble over such
                                  details? That would make us self-righteous frogs.

                                  Very well. There are worse symbols, since it was a plague of frogs at
                                  some point with which God ratcheted up His humbling of Pharoah before
                                  opening the Red Sea for his servants.

                                  If you cut through the nonsense, what you see is that the Protopriest
                                  could not have operated with such derision toward so many on this forum
                                  without the blessing of Metropolitan Laurus, whether it came before or
                                  after the comments were made. This ought to reveal something of the
                                  internal spirit of those who set up the facade of the One Act.

                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  <mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com> , morechoff@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From Interfax...
                                  >
                                  > Interview with Metropolitan Laurus given to Interfax.
                                  >
                                  > Michael Orechoff
                                  >
                                  > ----------
                                  >
                                  > 2007-06-05 10:34:00
                                  >
                                  > We hope our joint ministry and work will help to strengthen the
                                  Orthodoxy
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On May 17 the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church
                                  Outside of Russia signed the Act of Canonical Communion. A large
                                  delegation led by ROCOR primate Metropolitan Laurus came to Moscow to
                                  participate in the event. The guests visited many Moscow churches and
                                  monasteries, went to the Korennaya monastery in Kursk, and honored many
                                  shrines of Ukraine. Before leaving for the United States, Metropolitan
                                  Laurus shared his impressions with Interfax-Religion.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - The delegation of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia is
                                  about to end their visiting of Russia and Ukraine after the historic
                                  reunion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What is your impression of what
                                  you have seen?
                                  >
                                  > - If compared to my coming to Russia in 2004, during this visit we
                                  have transparently seen dynamic development in church life. There much
                                  more reopened churches and monasteries and they are all full of people.
                                  When in Kursk, I was deeply impressed with the restored Korennaya Pustyn
                                  Monastery full of joyful changes.
                                  >
                                  > I was glad to see that churches are built by different social groups
                                  working together. It not only makes it quicker, but also stimulates
                                  popular interest for the Orthodoxy. To my mind, this kind of cooperation
                                  is very important not only for constructing churches and monasteries,
                                  but also in educational and social work of the Church.
                                  >
                                  > Still the visitâ?Ts principal result has been our joint
                                  celebration of the Eucharist both in Russia and Ukraine, which
                                  demonstrated that we are the one body, the one spirit, and the one
                                  Church and that the one Christ, our God, is with and within us.
                                  >
                                  > - Was were you thought and feelings during the ceremony of signing of
                                  the Canonical Communion Act in the Christ the Saviorâ?Ts?
                                  >
                                  > - At that historical moment I prayed, and so I do now, thanking God
                                  for bringing the Russian Orthodox Churchâ?Ts two branches to such a
                                  unity confirmed by the Act. Finally we have achieved the possibility to
                                  worship together and to join in one liturgy! It was an affecting moment
                                  and many people were crying. We have been waiting for this minute for
                                  many decades.
                                  >
                                  > - Clergy and people from the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian
                                  Orthodox Church Outside of Russia worshipped together and shared in the
                                  same communion cup in Russian and Ukrainian churches. We all could see
                                  many young people attending those services...
                                  >
                                  > - It is very joyful to see many young people and children going to
                                  churches nowadays. They are brought up in a church manner so that they
                                  may bring their children there too. It is very good that you endeavor to
                                  introduce the Basic Orthodox Culture as a voluntary part of curriculum.
                                  It affects the nationâ?Ts morals and leads people to a unity. It is
                                  very important to Russiaâ?Ts future.
                                  >
                                  > - Are there any distinctive features of the Orthodox witness in the
                                  West?
                                  >
                                  > - We should keep the Orthodoxy and the spirit of the Holy Rus among
                                  the diaspora. It was the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia that
                                  gives to our йmigrйs spiritual might, uniting them and saving
                                  them from complete disappearing. We try to celebrate liturgies wherever
                                  we can. We celebrate 25th and 50th anniversaries of our parishes. We
                                  maintain our own traditions, but now it is especially important for us
                                  to learn the traditions peculiar for Russia.
                                  >
                                  > - What will you say in your first sermon after you are back home?
                                  >
                                  > - Our parishioners are already aware that we have signed the Act of
                                  Canonical Communion, and are united in their joy with the Orthodox
                                  believers in Russia. Of course I will share with them my impression of
                                  my visit to Russia and Ukraine.
                                  >
                                  > - The Church reunion achieved on May 17 is both a joyful event and a
                                  great responsibility. How do you hope to serve to the united Russian
                                  Orthodox Church?
                                  >
                                  > - The main thing is that we work for the benefit of the whole Orthodox
                                  world. We plan to actively cooperate with Russian clergy and lay people,
                                  to be interested in what they do, their traditions, monastic life,
                                  missionary, social and educational work. I hope that our joint ministry
                                  and common work in the spirit of the love as commanded by Christ will
                                  bring real fruits and will help to strengthen the holy Church.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  __________________________________________________________
                                  > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
                                  free from AOL at AOL.com.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • michael nikitin
                                  http://metphilaret. homestead. com/philaret. html Holy Metr. Philaret called the MP a pseudo-Church from the ambon in his sermon for all to hear. The MP is not
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                    http://metphilaret. homestead. com/philaret. html
                                    Holy Metr. Philaret called the MP a pseudo-Church
                                    from the ambon in his sermon for all to hear.
                                    The MP is not any part of the historic Russian Church
                                    that Holy Metr. Philaret was referring to.

                                    When did this pseudo-church become the Russian "Mother Church"
                                    that was able to give ROCOR(L) autonomy?

                                    http://www.wadioces e.com/eng/ Document/ 2001pastoralconf .html
                                    ..."it is completely absurd for the Russian Orthodox Church
                                    Outside of Russia, founded in 1920 in accordance with Holy
                                    Patriarch Tikhon's Ukase, to consider the Moscow Patriarchate its
                                    Mother Church. The Moscow Patriarchate was unlawfully
                                    founded an entire seven years later in 1927 after the usurpation
                                    of the lawful Church Authority by Metropolitan Sergius"...

                                    "The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia has always refused
                                    to consider the new church structure created by Metropolitan
                                    Sergius to be lawful and canonical; it refuses this to this very
                                    day. How can our Church consider the hierarchal structure created
                                    by Metropolitan Sergius to be canonical, when a number of the
                                    Moscow Patriarchate' s best church historians themselves refer to
                                    Metropolitan Sergius' authority as "non-canonical" (see the Acts
                                    of Holy Patriarch Tikhon published by the Saint Tikhon
                                    Theological Institute in Moscow)?"


                                    Michael N


                                    --- "(matushka) Ann Lardas" <matanna@...> wrote:
                                    "Metropolitan Philaret was upset that children were not being
                                    baptized, communed, or catechized. Now, the churches are full of
                                    children, bookstore kiosks sell religious books all over Russia,
                                    and there is religious education in the schools. (Note that the
                                    Metropolitan thought that the MP clergy were depriving the
                                    children of Holy Communion. That must mean that he was convinced
                                    that they could provide it to them.)"






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                                  • Mary Marczyk
                                    In response to boulia When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest! Anonymous (thanks
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                      In response to "boulia"

                                      When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth, they will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest! Anonymous (thanks to Abbess Juliana).

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: boulia_1
                                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 6:06 AM
                                      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Metropolitan Laurus does Kursk (was interview)


                                      Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
                                      been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
                                      more informed opinion.

                                      As for this bit of eloquence:

                                      > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                      >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                      >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                      >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                      >

                                      ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
                                      else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
                                      It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
                                      that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
                                      longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

                                      The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
                                      goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
                                      the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
                                      FACT COME.

                                      We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
                                      example), really we do!

                                      In Christ,
                                      Elizabeth Ledkovsky

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
                                      >
                                      > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
                                      is being obfuscated is
                                      >
                                      > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
                                      > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
                                      > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
                                      > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
                                      > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
                                      >
                                      > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
                                      sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
                                      proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
                                      of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
                                      something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
                                      years ago.
                                      >
                                      > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
                                      average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
                                      move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
                                      be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
                                      >
                                      > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
                                      skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
                                      Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
                                      next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
                                      career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
                                      molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
                                      senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
                                      elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
                                      very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
                                      >
                                      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
                                      > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
                                      real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
                                      mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
                                      >
                                      > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                      straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                      Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                      Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                      >
                                      > Gene T
                                      >
                                      > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
                                      really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
                                      Lebedeff himself.
                                      >
                                      > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • gene703
                                      Dear Mrs. Ledkovsky, It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                        Dear Mrs. Ledkovsky,

                                        It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like real truth about Russian history and it's present. Thinking about Christ came much later. Asking me to go back there while the good old commies are still in charge only in a different disguise (some don't even bother) and an ex-KGB officer for a president is like asking an escaped african-american slave back in say 1881 to comon' down and enjoy a visit to, say, south carolina or missisipi, see what I mean ?

                                        Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services and of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man. There is no true religious revival there, just a bunch of ex-commies chugging through a very large budget, thank you Mr. Putin very much.

                                        And Alexei II for goodness sake - he was made bishop and chief operating officer of the MP during the Brezhnev time. Decent people avoid at all costs being seen in such company under any circumstances. That was common wisdom in ROCOR just 10 short years ago.

                                        Gene T

                                        PS. I am sure hanging out in Moscow for two weeks with a Patriarch was tons of fun for a tolerant, forgiving, open-minded American who delights at anyone just entering the church on Sunday even for 10 minutes instead of golf, dining, shopping, gambling or plain vegging in front of a TV with a cold one.


                                        boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                                        Gene: When was the last time you were in Russia? Have you even ever
                                        been there? I highly recommend a trip there in order to develop a
                                        more informed opinion.

                                        As for this bit of eloquence:

                                        > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                        >straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                        >Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                        >Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                        >

                                        ROCOR was *never* supposed to be about making you or anyone
                                        else "very happy" because of its political stance as anti-communist.
                                        It was supposed to be a PRESERVE of the Holy Church until that time
                                        that the Church would no longer be persecuted, that churches would no
                                        longer be desecrated, that clergy would no long be murdered.

                                        The "founders" of ROCOR were not emigrants, they were refugees! Their
                                        goal and dream was always to go BACK, not to become right-wingers of
                                        the west! GO THERE AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THAT THE TIME HAS IN
                                        FACT COME.

                                        We have bigger problems (those waving flags bearing crescents, for
                                        example), really we do!

                                        In Christ,
                                        Elizabeth Ledkovsky

                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you Melissa for pointing this out,
                                        >
                                        > The unavoidable fact / the elephant in the unification room that
                                        is being obfuscated is
                                        >
                                        > 10 YEARS AGO ROCOR IDEOLOGY WAS 100% DIFFERENT
                                        > ROCOR HAS TURNED 180 DEGREES WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS
                                        > WAS THE ENTIRE SYNOD COMMUNIST SLEEPER AGENTS ?
                                        > WERE THEY SIMPLY BOUGHT IN A "BANKRUPTCY FIRE SALE" ?
                                        > WERE THEY BLACKMAILED WITH SOMETHING IMMORAL ON THE VIDEO ?
                                        >
                                        > Think about it - a bunch of churchman (think our eloquent anti-
                                        sergianism, anti-ecumenism book-writers Lebedeff and Potapoff ) who
                                        proclaimed a very straight forward and rather militant ideology all
                                        of a sudden give it up and stamped over their own flock to embrace
                                        something they would not touch with a ten foot pole less than 10
                                        years ago.
                                        >
                                        > Talk about PEREVERTYSHI. Even for your notoriously sleazy
                                        average American senator/congressman that would be a career ending
                                        move and we are talking here about church truths that are supposed to
                                        be a bit more permanent shall we say ?
                                        >
                                        > By the way communism did not fall in Russia, it just changed it's
                                        skin. Look no further then synod official website. The article about
                                        Mpt. Laurus visit to Kursk region. Right there on the photo he sits
                                        next to the Governor of Kursk who started his communist organizer
                                        career right out of high school in komsomol (kommunisticheckiy soyuz
                                        molodezhi) according to his official biography and for years was a
                                        senator in the communist fraction in the state Duma until being
                                        elected the Governor of Kursk oblast. Truth be told Mp. Laurus looks
                                        very sad in these pictures and I wonder why.
                                        >
                                        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/rt07/6prkursk_meeting.html
                                        > Well, I'll tell you why - all the suits in them pictures are
                                        real, unrepentant commies who just use him to look a bit
                                        mor "patriotic" before 2008 ellections and he knows it.
                                        >
                                        > I was very happy in ROCOR for over 30 years because it dealt
                                        straight when it came to these genocidal occupiers of Russia.
                                        Apparently no more. As they say here - money talks and bull___ waks.
                                        Was 1927-2001 ROCOR just so much bull___ to accompany the cold war ?
                                        >
                                        > Gene T
                                        >
                                        > PS. This will really be my last post to this list and I would
                                        really welcome some non-obfuscating responces. Maybe from Mr.
                                        Lebedeff himself.
                                        >
                                        > PPS. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls.

                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >






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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Hristofor/ХристофорЪ
                                        ... May the Lord forgive you; you really know not what you speak. On Saturday afternoon/evening after Ascension, I took a walk from the Detski Mir department
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 7, 2007
                                          On 6/7/07, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:

                                          > It was not anti-communism per se that attracted me to ROCOR, it was like a
                                          > last place on this earth where I could be Russian and hear like real truth
                                          > about Russian history and it's present. Thinking about Christ came much
                                          > later. Asking me to go back there while the good old commies are still in
                                          > charge only in a different disguise (some don't even bother) and an ex-KGB
                                          > officer for a president is like asking an escaped african-american slave
                                          > back in say 1881 to comon' down and enjoy a visit to, say, south carolina
                                          > or missisipi, see what I mean ?
                                          >
                                          > Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services
                                          > and of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man. There is no
                                          > true religious revival there, just a bunch of ex-commies chugging through a
                                          > very large budget, thank you Mr. Putin very much.



                                          May the Lord forgive you; you really know not what you speak. On Saturday
                                          afternoon/evening after Ascension, I took a walk from the Detski Mir
                                          department store to the Sretensky Monastery. I passed several churches along
                                          the way, all of them open and functioning; churches which I recall were
                                          derelict and profaned structures *just less than 10 yrs ago*. I went inside
                                          each one. They were all crowded, with people of all ages and both sexes. A
                                          habitual zarubezhnik churchgoer might be forgiven if they were wondering
                                          what the pending feast was, since the lines for confession were like those
                                          we see here on the eve of major feasts and not just an ordinary Saturday
                                          vigil. Or perhaps this was all some kind of spiritual Potemkin village?
                                          Maybe in advance they knew what route Hristofor would walk and bussed the
                                          people in to look busy and spiritual?

                                          I recall when Russian children would run up to the Intourist buses looking
                                          to trade pins for gum and jeans. Now they were coming up to our priests
                                          asking for blessings. Likewise in the past Russian kids would be sent to the
                                          komsomol camps; now there are brochures in the back of churches inviting
                                          children to attend Orthodox summer camps. There are ads for organized
                                          pilgrimages to the holy sites in Russia, the Ukraine, the Holy Land etc.

                                          For the Leave-taking of Pascha a small group of us went into the center and
                                          went into the first church we came upon (Bogojavlenski Monastery in
                                          Kitaj-gorod). We had the good fortune to be in a church which was actually a
                                          training school for choir directors. There was a choir of choir directors
                                          (!) on each cliros. Everyone single person was in their 20's. At this
                                          service and at the actual Leave-taking of Pascha, I was surprised to see
                                          average businessmen in suits in church, either on their way home or on their
                                          way to work. The Liturgy (Church of St Martin) was followed by a full
                                          krestny hod, with the reading of the Gospel at all 4 sides.

                                          You really should apologize for your comments: they were unfair, not true
                                          and totally off base. Though I suspect that the Orthodox in Russia could
                                          care less: they have found the one needful thing and are busy worrying about
                                          their own salvation and not looking around for skeletons in everyone else's
                                          closets. It is a pity that you have chosen to close your mind and eyes.


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • antiquariu@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 6/7/2007 7:24:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gene703@yahoo.com writes: Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 8, 2007
                                            In a message dated 6/7/2007 7:24:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            gene703@... writes:

                                            Besides less than 4% of Moscow resident attended the last Pasha services and
                                            of that number only a tiny minority were middle aged man.




                                            Gene, Gene, Gene, that was loaded and rather unfair. Do you attend regular
                                            services, Paskha or otherwise? If you do -- at the average ROCOR or OCA
                                            parish -- and for that matter overseas as well, you will find that the
                                            male-female split is rather interesting over here as well. I know its a stereotype,
                                            but it comes from somewhere: The men can be found outside smoking if they
                                            stay, and if they don't many of them do in fact drop off their wives. That's not
                                            a practice you will find at most American protestant parishes. The problem
                                            is so extensive that even priests comment on it, but that's hardly a problem
                                            caused by Putin.

                                            In Christ,

                                            Vova H.





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