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Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA

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  • George
    Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I m not aware of? George
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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      Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

      George

      On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
      >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
      >
      >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
      >
      >Fr. Basil
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>
      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
      >
      >
      > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
      >
      > Michael Orechoff
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>
      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
      >
      > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
      >
      > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
      >
      > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
      >
      > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
      >
      > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>
      >
      > ADB
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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    • Fr. Basil Grisel
      I do not know anything specific about Theresa of Calcutta, only that she doesn t belong depicted ikonographically in an Orthodox Church. I was just trying to
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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        I do not know anything specific about Theresa of Calcutta, only that she doesn't belong depicted ikonographically in an Orthodox Church. I was just trying to set a time frame for the age of the artwork in contrast to the "orthodox" history of the monastery - to explain a bit "the frescos they have".

        Fr. Basil

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: George<mailto:kharaku@...>
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 9:42 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA


        Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

        George

        On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...<mailto:batushka@...>> wrote:
        >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
        >
        >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
        >
        >Fr. Basil
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...><mailto:morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>>
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com><mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
        >
        >
        > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
        >
        > Michael Orechoff
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...><mailto:de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>>
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com><mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
        >
        > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
        >
        > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
        >
        > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
        >
        > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
        >
        > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm><http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>>
        >
        > ADB
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
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      • antiquariu@aol.com
        In a message dated 6/5/2007 8:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, batushka@msn.com writes: The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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          In a message dated 6/5/2007 8:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
          batushka@... writes:

          The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that.
          Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a
          Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.

          This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the
          OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more
          involved with them.

          Fr. Basil




          Dear in-Christ Father Basil, Bless!

          Whereas I agree with your point, why pick on the OCA? There are those who
          think "normal Orthodoxy" is defined by miraculous icon fraud and pederast
          priests as well, and before ROCOR seeks out the specks in the OCA's eye, it
          should perhaps get rid of the logs in its own. It's a Russian thing to use words
          like "parasynagogue." Makes it sound intellectual and theologically correct,
          sort of like the Russian/Soviet propensity to create new heresies by adding
          "ism." New Skete is considered an embarrassment to many in the OCA, but
          then again, Blanco -- which was highly and vocally supported by many in ROCOR at
          the time -- was a lot more embarrassing than weird icons and New Age
          priests. And we won't even talk about the slew of other lesser miraculous icons
          which also preyed on the faithful. Let New Skete draw its own brickbats, and
          once we're perfect, we can take up this issue again. For right now, we have
          enough bizarre behavior to fill the books ourselves. We could, for example,
          police protodeacons who publicly lambast their own priests and hiearchs and
          cashier priests who flog weeping cardboard icons while having had the grace of
          the Holy Spirit bless them multiple times with different weeping icons. We
          could cut down on this "false flag" propensity that gives rise to clever use
          of pen-names ranging from Russian obscenities ("Peace Duke") to Moliere ("de
          Bonnefoi") to just plain made-up nonsense ("Mike Nikitin")characters, without
          giving any idea just why they have axes to grind. We could even remove the
          shadow of doubt by eliminating "paramonasticism," to use a neo-Soviet word,
          and cut through the nonsense: you either are an Orthodox monk, or you're not.
          Nuff said. I think we should be more involved with the OCA, and for that
          matter, the rest of Orthodoxy as well. And just consider yourself and your
          parish extremely lucky that you don't have any charlatans and shysters in it,
          as some parishes did.

          Father Basil, you and I met about a decade ago at John the Baptist in DC
          when you were there for some clergy otgovenie; I recall liking the way your mind
          worked. You were still in the process of finding a home, as I recall, and I
          purchased a lovely Gospel (Sofrino) in binding that I presented to an OCA
          priest (Father George Johnson) from Conemaugh, PA. Father George is but one of
          many OCA priests I know who would be at home in either jurisdiction. He's
          hardly innovative, but he's a great priest.

          I still hope and pray -- as do you -- for the unity of God's Church, and one
          of these days, God willing, we'll achieve it.

          In Christ,

          Vova H.



          ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael nikitin
          Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California, Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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            Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
            Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
            concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church and
            brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but to
            serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.

            Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II if
            Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
            whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr. Laurus?
            They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
            church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.

            Michael N

            --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:

            > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
            > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five
            > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's
            > say almost 20 years.
            >
            > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed
            > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy,
            > and we should be more involved with them.
            >
            > Fr. Basil




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          • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            Is it not true that one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!) of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right Pagans!) at some monasteries,
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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              Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!) of
              ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right Pagans!)
              at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."

              The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no halo/nimbus
              thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of glorified saints
              and "merely" ethicize that these people had >>>ASPECTS<<< of their
              life, character or writings that is worthy of note for the Orthodox
              Christian.

              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko





              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
              <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
              >
              > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
              > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
              > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church and
              > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but to
              > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
              >
              > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II if
              > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
              > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr. Laurus?
              > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
              > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
              >
              > Michael N
              >
              > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
              >
              > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
              > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five
              > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's
              > > say almost 20 years.
              > >
              > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed
              > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy,
              > > and we should be more involved with them.
              > >
              > > Fr. Basil
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              ______________
              > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
              > that gives answers, not web links.
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              >
            • Archpriest David Moser
              ... This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual concelebrations in certain
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                > concelebrate with the OCA.

                This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.


                ArchPr David Moser
              • Reader Timothy Tadros
                I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was quite surprised that while
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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                  I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have
                  come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was
                  quite surprised that while the reconcilliation/unification of the two
                  parts of the Russian Orthodox Church took place in Russia. Others
                  here in America seemed to think or took advantage of the situation
                  and held similar services with other priests of other jurisdictions
                  on Ascension.
                  Will this apply to any jurisdiction especially those on the new
                  calendar?
                  Rdr Timothy Tadros

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                  <moserd@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                  > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                  > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                  > > concelebrate with the OCA.
                  >
                  > This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                  > ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                  > concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                  > "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.
                  >
                  >
                  > ArchPr David Moser
                  >
                • George
                  the only reason i ve heard against concelebrating with other orthodox Christians on feat day outside the same calendar is the fact that one should not
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
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                    the only reason i've heard against concelebrating with other orthodox Christians on feat day outside the same calendar is the fact that one should not commemorate 2 feast days on the same feast day.

                    though I agree given the circumstances folks should be consulting with their bishops frist.

                    On Wednesday, June 06, 2007, at 10:16PM, "Reader Timothy Tadros" <pravoslavney@...> wrote:
                    > I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have
                    >come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was
                    >quite surprised that while the reconcilliation/unification of the two
                    >parts of the Russian Orthodox Church took place in Russia. Others
                    >here in America seemed to think or took advantage of the situation
                    >and held similar services with other priests of other jurisdictions
                    >on Ascension.
                    > Will this apply to any jurisdiction especially those on the new
                    >calendar?
                    >Rdr Timothy Tadros
                    >
                    >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                    ><moserd@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                    >> <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                    >> >
                    >> > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                    >> > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                    >> > concelebrate with the OCA.
                    >>
                    >> This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                    >> ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                    >> concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                    >> "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ArchPr David Moser
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                    Dear George, There is something that you are not aware. Like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mahomed, Mandela, Golda Meïr, Mussolini, Bush, she was not orthodox.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
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                      Dear George,

                      There is something that you are not aware. Like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mahomed, Mandela, Golda Meïr, Mussolini, Bush, she was not orthodox. So there is not any reason to see her on the frescos (icons) of an orthodox church.

                      How can you not be aware of that by yourself?


                      A de Bonnefoi

                      George <kharaku@...> a écrit :
                      Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

                      George

                      On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
                      >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
                      >
                      >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
                      >
                      >Fr. Basil
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>
                      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
                      >
                      >
                      > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
                      >
                      > Michael Orechoff
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>
                      > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
                      > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
                      >
                      > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
                      >
                      > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
                      >
                      > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
                      >
                      > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
                      >
                      > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>
                      >
                      > ADB
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________________
                      > AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >





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                    • michael nikitin
                      Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA? Michael N ... glorified saints and merely ethicize that these people had ... of note for the Orthodox
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
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                        Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?

                        Michael N


                        --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                        wrote:

                        > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                        > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                        > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                        >
                        > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                        > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                        glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                        >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                        of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                        >
                        > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                        > <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                        > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                        > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                        > and
                        > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                        > to
                        > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                        > >
                        > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                        > if
                        > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                        > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                        > Laurus?
                        > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                        > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                        > >
                        > > Michael N
                        > >
                        > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                        > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                        > five
                        > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                        > let's
                        > > > say almost 20 years.
                        > > >
                        > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                        > allowed
                        > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                        > Orthodoxy,
                        > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                        > > >
                        > > > Fr. Basil
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        ______________________________________________________________________
                        > ______________
                        > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                        > > that gives answers, not web links.
                        > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >






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                      • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the Athonite Monastery
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
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                          Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic
                          images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                          Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                          their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                          Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                          is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                          <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                          >
                          > Michael N
                          >
                          >
                          > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >
                          > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                          > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                          > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                          > >
                          > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                          > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                          > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                          > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                          > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                          > >
                          > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                          > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                          > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                          > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                          > > and
                          > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                          > > to
                          > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                          > > >
                          > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                          > > if
                          > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                          > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                          > > Laurus?
                          > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                          > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                          > > >
                          > > > Michael N
                          > > >
                          > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                          > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                          > > five
                          > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                          > > let's
                          > > > > say almost 20 years.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                          > > allowed
                          > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                          > > Orthodoxy,
                          > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Fr. Basil
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          > > ______________
                          > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                          > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                          > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          ______________
                          > Never miss an email again!
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                        • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                          Father Stefan, Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without any teaching. Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
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                            Father Stefan,

                            Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without any teaching.

                            Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of the righteous and orthodox teaching.


                            A de Bonnefoi

                            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> a écrit :
                            Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic
                            images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                            Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                            their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                            Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                            is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                            >
                            > Michael N
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                            > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                            > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                            > >
                            > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                            > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                            > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                            > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                            > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                            > >
                            > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                            > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                            > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                            > > and
                            > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                            > > to
                            > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                            > > >
                            > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                            > > if
                            > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                            > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                            > > Laurus?
                            > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                            > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                            > > >
                            > > > Michael N
                            > > >
                            > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                            > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                            > > five
                            > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                            > > let's
                            > > > > say almost 20 years.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                            > > allowed
                            > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                            > > Orthodoxy,
                            > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Fr. Basil
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            __________________________________________________________
                            > > ______________
                            > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                            > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                            > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            __________________________________________________________
                            ______________
                            > Never miss an email again!
                            > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
                            > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                            >






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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Carol Surgant
                            ... any teaching. ... volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of the righteous and orthodox teaching. ... Yes, and that is why in a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                              <de_bonnefoi@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Father Stefan,
                              >
                              > Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without
                              any teaching.
                              >
                              > Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                              volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of
                              the righteous and orthodox teaching.
                              >
                              Yes, and that is why in a few churches in Greece, Plato and Socrates
                              might be found depicted without a halo *in the Narthex*. They gave
                              glimpses of the truth, and perhaps prepared the Greeks to accept
                              Christ, but are not of the church, therefore found only in the
                              narthex. However, it is not Orthodox tradition to depict non-saints
                              in the nave of the church where we worship surrounded by the those
                              whom the God has revealed to the Church as saints.

                              in Christ,
                              Carol Surgant
                            • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                              Alexander, DID I NOT SAY: Socrates and Plato were pagans, but their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic Theology
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Alexander, DID I NOT SAY:>>>>>Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                                their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                                Theology<<<<<
                                THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! Do you not read my post?

                                Tell those who had the portraits put up, not me!
                                Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                                <de_bonnefoi@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Father Stefan,
                                >
                                > Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without
                                any teaching.
                                >
                                > Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                                volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of
                                the righteous and orthodox teaching.
                                >
                                >
                                > A de Bonnefoi
                                >
                                > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> a écrit :
                                > Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are
                                iconographic
                                > images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                                > Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                                > their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                                > Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                                > is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                                > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                >
                                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                                > >
                                > > Michael N
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                                > > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                                > > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                                > > >
                                > > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                                > > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                                > > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                                > > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                                > > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                                > > >
                                > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                > > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                                > > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                                > > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                                > > > and
                                > > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                                > > > to
                                > > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                                > > > if
                                > > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                                > > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                                > > > Laurus?
                                > > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                                > > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Michael N
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                                > > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                                > > > five
                                > > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                                > > > let's
                                > > > > > say almost 20 years.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                                > > > allowed
                                > > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                                > > > Orthodoxy,
                                > > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Fr. Basil
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > __________________________________________________________
                                > > > ______________
                                > > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                                > > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                                > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > __________________________________________________________
                                > ______________
                                > > Never miss an email again!
                                > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
                                > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
                                > >
                                >
                                >
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