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RE : Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA

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  • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
    You wrote : We can only hope that things will change and will change in the true Orthodox direction... . Indeed, and we also hope a same change for the RC
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
      You wrote : "We can only hope that things will change and will change in the true Orthodox direction... ."

      Indeed, and we also hope a same change for the RC and all the Protestants...

      A de bonnefoi


      morechoff@... a écrit :
      I agree that the OCA is too liberal. I learned not too long ago that most of the Bishops eat meat which surprised me.

      I am used to Bishops being monks and not eating meat at all.

      But I am sure there are many OCA priests too that are not liberal and object to what goes on in the OCA.

      The OCA is going thru some tough times now with their leadership. We can only hope that things will change and will change in the true Orthodox direction....

      Mike Orechoff

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Fr. Basil Grisel <batushka@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 4:05 pm
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA

      The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.

      This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.

      Fr. Basil
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA

      New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.

      Michael Orechoff

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA

      One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.

      Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

      One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.

      And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.

      Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>

      ADB

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    • George
      Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I m not aware of? George
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
        Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

        George

        On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
        >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
        >
        >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
        >
        >Fr. Basil
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
        >
        >
        > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
        >
        > Michael Orechoff
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>
        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
        >
        > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
        >
        > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
        >
        > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
        >
        > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
        >
        > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>
        >
        > ADB
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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        >
        > __________________________________________________________
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      • Fr. Basil Grisel
        I do not know anything specific about Theresa of Calcutta, only that she doesn t belong depicted ikonographically in an Orthodox Church. I was just trying to
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
          I do not know anything specific about Theresa of Calcutta, only that she doesn't belong depicted ikonographically in an Orthodox Church. I was just trying to set a time frame for the age of the artwork in contrast to the "orthodox" history of the monastery - to explain a bit "the frescos they have".

          Fr. Basil

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: George<mailto:kharaku@...>
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2007 9:42 AM
          Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA


          Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

          George

          On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...<mailto:batushka@...>> wrote:
          >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
          >
          >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
          >
          >Fr. Basil
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...><mailto:morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>>
          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com><mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
          >
          >
          > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
          >
          > Michael Orechoff
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...><mailto:de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>>
          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com><mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
          >
          > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
          >
          > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
          >
          > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
          >
          > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
          >
          > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm><http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>>
          >
          > ADB
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
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          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • antiquariu@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/5/2007 8:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, batushka@msn.com writes: The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
            In a message dated 6/5/2007 8:15:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            batushka@... writes:

            The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that.
            Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a
            Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.

            This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the
            OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more
            involved with them.

            Fr. Basil




            Dear in-Christ Father Basil, Bless!

            Whereas I agree with your point, why pick on the OCA? There are those who
            think "normal Orthodoxy" is defined by miraculous icon fraud and pederast
            priests as well, and before ROCOR seeks out the specks in the OCA's eye, it
            should perhaps get rid of the logs in its own. It's a Russian thing to use words
            like "parasynagogue." Makes it sound intellectual and theologically correct,
            sort of like the Russian/Soviet propensity to create new heresies by adding
            "ism." New Skete is considered an embarrassment to many in the OCA, but
            then again, Blanco -- which was highly and vocally supported by many in ROCOR at
            the time -- was a lot more embarrassing than weird icons and New Age
            priests. And we won't even talk about the slew of other lesser miraculous icons
            which also preyed on the faithful. Let New Skete draw its own brickbats, and
            once we're perfect, we can take up this issue again. For right now, we have
            enough bizarre behavior to fill the books ourselves. We could, for example,
            police protodeacons who publicly lambast their own priests and hiearchs and
            cashier priests who flog weeping cardboard icons while having had the grace of
            the Holy Spirit bless them multiple times with different weeping icons. We
            could cut down on this "false flag" propensity that gives rise to clever use
            of pen-names ranging from Russian obscenities ("Peace Duke") to Moliere ("de
            Bonnefoi") to just plain made-up nonsense ("Mike Nikitin")characters, without
            giving any idea just why they have axes to grind. We could even remove the
            shadow of doubt by eliminating "paramonasticism," to use a neo-Soviet word,
            and cut through the nonsense: you either are an Orthodox monk, or you're not.
            Nuff said. I think we should be more involved with the OCA, and for that
            matter, the rest of Orthodoxy as well. And just consider yourself and your
            parish extremely lucky that you don't have any charlatans and shysters in it,
            as some parishes did.

            Father Basil, you and I met about a decade ago at John the Baptist in DC
            when you were there for some clergy otgovenie; I recall liking the way your mind
            worked. You were still in the process of finding a home, as I recall, and I
            purchased a lovely Gospel (Sofrino) in binding that I presented to an OCA
            priest (Father George Johnson) from Conemaugh, PA. Father George is but one of
            many OCA priests I know who would be at home in either jurisdiction. He's
            hardly innovative, but he's a great priest.

            I still hope and pray -- as do you -- for the unity of God's Church, and one
            of these days, God willing, we'll achieve it.

            In Christ,

            Vova H.



            ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael nikitin
            Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California, Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
              Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
              Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
              concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church and
              brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but to
              serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.

              Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II if
              Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
              whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr. Laurus?
              They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
              church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.

              Michael N

              --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:

              > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
              > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five
              > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's
              > say almost 20 years.
              >
              > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed
              > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy,
              > and we should be more involved with them.
              >
              > Fr. Basil




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            • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
              Is it not true that one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!) of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right Pagans!) at some monasteries,
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
                Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!) of
                ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right Pagans!)
                at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."

                The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no halo/nimbus
                thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of glorified saints
                and "merely" ethicize that these people had >>>ASPECTS<<< of their
                life, character or writings that is worthy of note for the Orthodox
                Christian.

                Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko





                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church and
                > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but to
                > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                >
                > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II if
                > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr. Laurus?
                > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                >
                > Michael N
                >
                > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
                >
                > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five
                > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's
                > > say almost 20 years.
                > >
                > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed
                > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy,
                > > and we should be more involved with them.
                > >
                > > Fr. Basil
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
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                > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                > that gives answers, not web links.
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              • Archpriest David Moser
                ... This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual concelebrations in certain
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                  <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                  > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                  > concelebrate with the OCA.

                  This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                  ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                  concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                  "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.


                  ArchPr David Moser
                • Reader Timothy Tadros
                  I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was quite surprised that while
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
                    I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have
                    come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was
                    quite surprised that while the reconcilliation/unification of the two
                    parts of the Russian Orthodox Church took place in Russia. Others
                    here in America seemed to think or took advantage of the situation
                    and held similar services with other priests of other jurisdictions
                    on Ascension.
                    Will this apply to any jurisdiction especially those on the new
                    calendar?
                    Rdr Timothy Tadros

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                    <moserd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                    > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                    > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                    > > concelebrate with the OCA.
                    >
                    > This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                    > ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                    > concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                    > "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.
                    >
                    >
                    > ArchPr David Moser
                    >
                  • George
                    the only reason i ve heard against concelebrating with other orthodox Christians on feat day outside the same calendar is the fact that one should not
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 6, 2007
                      the only reason i've heard against concelebrating with other orthodox Christians on feat day outside the same calendar is the fact that one should not commemorate 2 feast days on the same feast day.

                      though I agree given the circumstances folks should be consulting with their bishops frist.

                      On Wednesday, June 06, 2007, at 10:16PM, "Reader Timothy Tadros" <pravoslavney@...> wrote:
                      > I have not seen a synodal ukase or where any of our bishop have
                      >come out and said you may serve with any one whom you please. I was
                      >quite surprised that while the reconcilliation/unification of the two
                      >parts of the Russian Orthodox Church took place in Russia. Others
                      >here in America seemed to think or took advantage of the situation
                      >and held similar services with other priests of other jurisdictions
                      >on Ascension.
                      > Will this apply to any jurisdiction especially those on the new
                      >calendar?
                      >Rdr Timothy Tadros
                      >
                      >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                      ><moserd@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                      >> <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                      >> >
                      >> > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                      >> > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                      >> > concelebrate with the OCA.
                      >>
                      >> This is a lie - either that or no other priest I know has seen this
                      >> ukase. Abp Kyrill has given blessing for certain individual
                      >> concelebrations in certain limited circumstances - but no such
                      >> "blanket Ukase" applying to everyone exists.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ArchPr David Moser
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                      Dear George, There is something that you are not aware. Like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mahomed, Mandela, Golda Meïr, Mussolini, Bush, she was not orthodox.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
                        Dear George,

                        There is something that you are not aware. Like Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mahomed, Mandela, Golda Meïr, Mussolini, Bush, she was not orthodox. So there is not any reason to see her on the frescos (icons) of an orthodox church.

                        How can you not be aware of that by yourself?


                        A de Bonnefoi

                        George <kharaku@...> a écrit :
                        Is there some aweful thing Theresa of Calcutta did that I'm not aware of?

                        George

                        On Tuesday, June 05, 2007, at 08:14PM, "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
                        >The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than five years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh, let's say almost 20 years.
                        >
                        >This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are allowed in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal Orthodoxy, and we should be more involved with them.
                        >
                        >Fr. Basil
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: morechoff@...<mailto:morechoff@...>
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 5:51 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
                        >
                        >
                        > New Skete Monastery in New York was a Byzantine-Rite Franciscans monastery up until 1979 when they joined the OCA. This might explain the frescoes they have.
                        >
                        > Michael Orechoff
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Alexandre de Bonnefoi <de_bonnefoi@...<mailto:de_bonnefoi@...>>
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com<mailto:orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 11:52 am
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Innovations in the para-synagog of OCA
                        >
                        > One had laughed about these mural frescos in Romania depainting Gorbatchev, Bush Senior and Jean Paul II.
                        >
                        > Now, a skite of the OCA in the United States made the same thing : on the frescos, one can recognize : Athenagoras, the pope Paul VI and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.
                        >
                        > One can also admire in the column of photographs the magnificent blue clothing of the priest with mountains, an ass and a star.
                        >
                        > And all of that is under the eyes of Herman, big boss of the OCA. Curiously, there is not Jean-Paul II.
                        >
                        > Have fun: http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm<http://holytrinityorthodox.org/photos/new_skete.htm>
                        >
                        > ADB
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
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                        >
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                        >
                        >





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                      • michael nikitin
                        Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA? Michael N ... glorified saints and merely ethicize that these people had ... of note for the Orthodox
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
                          Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?

                          Michael N


                          --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                          wrote:

                          > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                          > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                          > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                          >
                          > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                          > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                          glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                          >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                          of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                          >
                          > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                          > <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                          > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                          > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                          > and
                          > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                          > to
                          > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                          > >
                          > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                          > if
                          > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                          > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                          > Laurus?
                          > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                          > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                          > >
                          > > Michael N
                          > >
                          > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                          > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                          > five
                          > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                          > let's
                          > > > say almost 20 years.
                          > > >
                          > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                          > allowed
                          > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                          > Orthodoxy,
                          > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                          > > >
                          > > > Fr. Basil
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          ______________________________________________________________________
                          > ______________
                          > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                          > > that gives answers, not web links.
                          > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >






                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                          Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the Athonite Monastery
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 7, 2007
                            Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic
                            images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                            Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                            their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                            Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                            is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                            >
                            > Michael N
                            >
                            >
                            > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                            > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                            > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                            > >
                            > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                            > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                            > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                            > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                            > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                            > >
                            > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                            > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                            > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                            > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                            > > and
                            > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                            > > to
                            > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                            > > >
                            > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                            > > if
                            > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                            > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                            > > Laurus?
                            > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                            > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                            > > >
                            > > > Michael N
                            > > >
                            > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                            > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                            > > five
                            > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                            > > let's
                            > > > > say almost 20 years.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                            > > allowed
                            > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                            > > Orthodoxy,
                            > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Fr. Basil
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            > > ______________
                            > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                            > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                            > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            ______________
                            > Never miss an email again!
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                          • Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                            Father Stefan, Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without any teaching. Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
                              Father Stefan,

                              Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without any teaching.

                              Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of the righteous and orthodox teaching.


                              A de Bonnefoi

                              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> a écrit :
                              Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are iconographic
                              images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                              Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                              their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                              Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                              is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                              <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                              >
                              > Michael N
                              >
                              >
                              > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                              > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                              > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                              > >
                              > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                              > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                              > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                              > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                              > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                              > >
                              > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                              > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                              > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                              > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                              > > and
                              > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                              > > to
                              > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                              > > >
                              > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                              > > if
                              > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                              > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                              > > Laurus?
                              > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                              > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                              > > >
                              > > > Michael N
                              > > >
                              > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                              > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                              > > five
                              > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                              > > let's
                              > > > > say almost 20 years.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                              > > allowed
                              > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                              > > Orthodoxy,
                              > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Fr. Basil
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              __________________________________________________________
                              > > ______________
                              > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                              > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                              > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              __________________________________________________________
                              ______________
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                              > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
                              > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Carol Surgant
                              ... any teaching. ... volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of the righteous and orthodox teaching. ... Yes, and that is why in a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                                <de_bonnefoi@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Father Stefan,
                                >
                                > Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without
                                any teaching.
                                >
                                > Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                                volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of
                                the righteous and orthodox teaching.
                                >
                                Yes, and that is why in a few churches in Greece, Plato and Socrates
                                might be found depicted without a halo *in the Narthex*. They gave
                                glimpses of the truth, and perhaps prepared the Greeks to accept
                                Christ, but are not of the church, therefore found only in the
                                narthex. However, it is not Orthodox tradition to depict non-saints
                                in the nave of the church where we worship surrounded by the those
                                whom the God has revealed to the Church as saints.

                                in Christ,
                                Carol Surgant
                              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                Alexander, DID I NOT SAY: Socrates and Plato were pagans, but their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic Theology
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 8, 2007
                                  Alexander, DID I NOT SAY:>>>>>Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                                  their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                                  Theology<<<<<
                                  THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! Do you not read my post?

                                  Tell those who had the portraits put up, not me!
                                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Alexandre de Bonnefoi
                                  <de_bonnefoi@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Father Stefan,
                                  >
                                  > Plato and Socrates had an excuse and a merit to guess God without
                                  any teaching.
                                  >
                                  > Teresa of Calcutta and others (Paul VI, Athenagoras etc) are
                                  volontary apart from this teaching because they knew the existence of
                                  the righteous and orthodox teaching.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > A de Bonnefoi
                                  >
                                  > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> a écrit :
                                  > Neither! I said what I said, …on Mount Athos there are
                                  iconographic
                                  > images of Socrates and Plato depicted in the entry of one of the
                                  > Athonite Monastery edifices. Socrates and Plato were pagans, but
                                  > their images are there in honor of their pre-supposing monotheistic
                                  > Theology. Non-orthodox on the walls of Orthodox Churches, there it
                                  > is! And no one is the worse off by it.
                                  > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                  >
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                  > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Is Fr.Stefan defending the paintings or the OCA?
                                  > >
                                  > > Michael N
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Is it not true that "one finds wall paintings (ON MOUNT ATHOS!)
                                  > > > of ancient philosophers such as Socrates and Plato (out right
                                  > > > Pagans!) at some monasteries, such as Vatopedi,..."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The pictures, all be it in iconographic style, have no
                                  > > > halo/nimbus thereby qualifying them as outside of the family of
                                  > > glorified saints and "merely" ethicize that these people had
                                  > > >>>ASPECTS<<< of their life, character or writings that is worthy
                                  > > of note for the Orthodox Christian.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                  > > > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Fr. Basil, we already are involved with OCA? In California,
                                  > > > > Vl.Kirill sent a Ukase for everyone in his Diocese to
                                  > > > > concelebrate with the OCA. If the bishop comes to your Church
                                  > > > and
                                  > > > > brings clergy from the OCA, Fr. Basil will have no choice but
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > serve with clergy from OCA or leave. You are done, Fr. Basil.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Fr. Valery Luckianov also has to commemorate Patr. Alexey II
                                  > > > if
                                  > > > > Metr. Laurus serves in his parish. But what's the difference
                                  > > > > whether one commemorates the Patr. or commemorates Metr.
                                  > > > Laurus?
                                  > > > > They are both one now. Fr. Valery does not want to loose the
                                  > > > > church which he built with beautiful ikonostas and icons.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Michael N
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- "Fr. Basil Grisel" <batushka@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > The frescos were completed in the last FIVE YEARS, please
                                  > > > > > explain that. Theresa of Calcutta wasn't dead more than
                                  > > > five
                                  > > > > > years ago.It has not been a Franciscan monastery for oh,
                                  > > > let's
                                  > > > > > say almost 20 years.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > This is just a sampling of the bizarre things that are
                                  > > > allowed
                                  > > > > > in the OCA.,,,,and some people think this is normal
                                  > > > Orthodoxy,
                                  > > > > > and we should be more involved with them.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Fr. Basil
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                  > > > ______________
                                  > > > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                                  > > > > that gives answers, not web links.
                                  > > > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                  > ______________
                                  > > Never miss an email again!
                                  > > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives.
                                  > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
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                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
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