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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Red Candles???

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  • Fr. Anthony Nelson
    A long time ago - probably 15 years - an emigre Russian family here offered to bring and donate candles for the Paschal Vigil. What they showed up with were
    Message 1 of 13 , May 3 1:30 PM
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      A long time ago - probably 15 years - an emigre' Russian family here
      offered to bring and donate candles for the Paschal Vigil. What they
      showed up with were boxes of red candles. No one at the Vigil that
      night commented one way or the other...so it was obviously not
      unexpected or abnormal...


      At 09:29 AM 5/3/2007, you wrote:

      >The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians became
      >much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful word a
      >beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very sound
      >and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in Russia
      >the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings, beauty
      >and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the faithful...
      >maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!

      Well...I don't know if "GAY" can be rehabilitated. At least in this society!

      Fr. Anthony


      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
      Protopriest Anthony Nelson
      St. Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
      Oklahoma City, OK USA 405-672-1441
      mailto:fr.anthony@...
      http://www.russianorthodoxoklahoma.org

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Stephen/Στέφανος
      Yes, father, but making red candles has to be a new tradition, an innovation; and is probably against the church canons because they most likely use an
      Message 2 of 13 , May 3 1:38 PM
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        Yes, father, but making "red" candles has to be a new tradition, an
        innovation; and is probably against the church canons because they
        most likely use an "artificial dye" to make that color, whereas
        Orthodox candles are supposed to be made of "pure beeswax" with no
        artificial ingredients. Red paschal eggs and red (crimson)
        vestments *are* traditional.

        (I do lament that so many Greek churches in the diaspora use
        petroleum/paraffin candles, they're uncanonical, smell horrible when
        extinguished and are simply tacky!)

        Stephanos


        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
        >
        > The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians became
        > much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful word a
        > beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very sound
        > and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in Russia
        > the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings, beauty
        > and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the faithful...
        > maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
        >
        > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:orthodox-synod%40yahoogroups.com>, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
        > > At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
        > > >Christ is Risen!
        > >
        > > Truly, He is Risen!
        > >
        > > >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
        > candles at
        > > >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
        > >
        > > ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red candles at
        > a
        > > ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
        > Pentecost.
        > > It's an interesting question.
        > >
        > > Anna V.
        > > _________________________________________
        > >
        > > I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an image
        > search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the photos
        > the search engine came up with showed the small table with the two
        > crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
        > >
        > > --Dimitra Dwelley
        > > _______________________
        > >
        >
        >
      • George
        indeed the color red has been popular in Russia long before the communists and continues to be favored. i ve also heard that krasnaya (red in Russian) in old
        Message 3 of 13 , May 3 1:46 PM
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          indeed the color red has been popular in Russia long before the communists and continues to be favored.

          i've also heard that krasnaya (red in Russian) in old Russian could also mean beautiful or important.

          assuming that anything Russian and Red is somehow a relation to the Soviets or their Ideaology is a mistake.

          George

          On Thursday, May 03, 2007, at 04:23PM, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko" <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
          >The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians became
          >much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful word a
          >beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very sound
          >and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in Russia
          >the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings, beauty
          >and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the faithful...
          >maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
          >
          >Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >--- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
          >> At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
          >> >Christ is Risen!
          >>
          >> Truly, He is Risen!
          >>
          >> >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
          >candles at
          >> >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
          >>
          >> ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red candles at
          >a
          >> ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
          >Pentecost.
          >> It's an interesting question.
          >>
          >> Anna V.
          >> _________________________________________
          >>
          >> I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an image
          >search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the photos
          >the search engine came up with showed the small table with the two
          >crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
          >>
          >> --Dimitra Dwelley
          >> _______________________
          >>
          >
          >
          >
        • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
          ... communists and continues to be favored. ... also mean beautiful or important. case in point: Red Square
          Message 4 of 13 , May 3 2:16 PM
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, George <kharaku@...> wrote:
            >
            > indeed the color red has been popular in Russia long before the
            communists and continues to be favored.
            >
            > i've also heard that krasnaya (red in Russian) in old Russian could
            also mean beautiful or important.

            case in point: Red Square
          • proto@net2000.com.au
            Dear Stephanos, When the late Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco was bishop of Melbourne, i.e. 1956-1967, he always used red candles in the bishop s blessing
            Message 5 of 13 , May 3 4:43 PM
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              Dear Stephanos,
              When the late Archbishop Anthony of San Francisco was bishop of Melbourne,
              i.e. 1956-1967, he always used red candles in the bishop's blessing
              candlesticks. Red candles were made for the parishioners on Easter Eve and the
              subdeacons and deacons wore red orarions on their white vestments. I doubt
              that this is an innovation, but something that Vladyka Anthony was particular
              about at the time. If anything, this is a Russian tradition and has nothing
              to do canonicity.
              In Christ
              Fr Michael Protopopov.

              Quoting Stephen/Στέφανος <sbuatl@...>:

              > Yes, father, but making "red" candles has to be a new tradition, an
              > innovation; and is probably against the church canons because they
              > most likely use an "artificial dye" to make that color, whereas
              > Orthodox candles are supposed to be made of "pure beeswax" with no
              > artificial ingredients. Red paschal eggs and red (crimson)
              > vestments *are* traditional.
              >
              > (I do lament that so many Greek churches in the diaspora use
              > petroleum/paraffin candles, they're uncanonical, smell horrible when
              > extinguished and are simply tacky!)
              >
              > Stephanos
              >
              >
              > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
              > >
              > > The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians became
              > > much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful word a
              > > beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very sound
              > > and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in Russia
              > > the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings, beauty
              > > and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the faithful...
              > > maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
              > >
              > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
              > >
              > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:orthodox-synod%40yahoogroups.com>, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
              > > > At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
              > > > >Christ is Risen!
              > > >
              > > > Truly, He is Risen!
              > > >
              > > > >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
              > > candles at
              > > > >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
              > > >
              > > > ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red candles at
              > > a
              > > > ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
              > > Pentecost.
              > > > It's an interesting question.
              > > >
              > > > Anna V.
              > > > _________________________________________
              > > >
              > > > I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an image
              > > search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the photos
              > > the search engine came up with showed the small table with the two
              > > crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
              > > >
              > > > --Dimitra Dwelley
              > > > _______________________
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Carol Surgant
              ... XB! Many Russians would consider the bright red eggs (dyed with Greek ARTIFICIAL chemical dyes) to be untraditional. Traditional Russian Pascha eggs are
              Message 6 of 13 , May 3 9:11 PM
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Stephen/Στέφανος
                <sbuatl@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, father, but making "red" candles has to be a new
                >tradition, an innovation; and is probably against
                >the church canons because they most likely use an
                >"artificial dye" to make that color, whereas Orthodox
                >candles are supposed to be made of "pure beeswax" with
                >no artificial ingredients. Red paschal eggs and red
                >(crimson) vestments *are* traditional.
                >

                XB!

                Many Russians would consider the bright red eggs (dyed with Greek
                ARTIFICIAL chemical dyes) to be untraditional. Traditional Russian
                Pascha eggs are dyed with natural vegetable dyes made from onion
                skins, etc. So, please don't try to twist differences in ethnic
                customs into canonical arguments. For every canon that you wish to
                hurl against the Russians, I could find another to hurl against the
                Greeks (both old and new calendar.) In the end, we won't have
                accomplished much except to have behaved in an exceedingly un-
                Christian manner. I prefer to leave judgements about what "is
                probably against the church canons" to my bishop.

                In Christ,
                Carol Surgant
              • Martinian Prince
                Chris is Risen! Father, bless! I beg you all not to consider things like gay and red ruined by evil ideologies to us who honor and seek the Truth. Father
                Message 7 of 13 , May 4 1:56 PM
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                  Chris is Risen!

                  Father, bless!

                  I beg you all not to consider things like gay and red "ruined by evil
                  ideologies" to us who honor and seek the Truth. Father Stefan is
                  right, there IS yet hope! We had them first; they are still ours to
                  take back. I submit this view: continue to fearlessly use those things
                  whose original meanings are innocent and good! We may be the last
                  thing standing between a bit of good being snuffed out, usurped by the
                  spirit of Antichrist.

                  I humbly yet firmly say that we should use these things unnaffected,
                  in innocence and goodwill, as those exhorted to live in the world and
                  not be of it. Every good, noble, beautiful,righteous and holy thing
                  will be taken by the enemy and twisted to suit his purposes, but only
                  as the world understands them--we are not of this world. We did not
                  let the Arians take the word 'Christ'. Rightly, it is the big ideas we
                  should most fiercely defend. Why, however, should we give the world
                  even the smallest word or concept? What has the world ever given us?

                  Could this be a token way to "be as the little children" and in our
                  own unnaffected use of the word, keep the innocence and simplicity of
                  gaiety alive? After growing up in the SF Bay Area, and had friends, of
                  a sort, who had fallen to the temptation implied, I know there is no
                  mistake in the colors, words and symbols chosen to proclaim their
                  accursed path. See how the demons have led these wretched dupes to
                  wave a rainbow flag--the very symbol God gave to us as a promise to
                  never again punish us for our sins by a destroying flood--as a mockery
                  of His mercy.

                  I don't say this as a rebellion to what you said Father, but I heard
                  your comment as a call to rebellion. I say no! I will not let words be
                  taken from me because those lost in darkness have forgotten their
                  understanding. "God is with us,understand O ye nations, and submit
                  yourselves!" We are the wards and keepers of those things that are
                  good, noble, beautiful, righteous and holy. Consider them to be a
                  prize to be won in the Unseen Warfare! I certainly feel this is so,
                  but feelings can't be trusted, and I'm no authority.

                  What do you think, Father Stefan? Do we do work for good by ignoring
                  the implications that the world and the enemy have inflicted on
                  traditional concepts and culture? When I read books by Charles Dickens
                  or the Little House on the Prairie series by Laura Ingalls Wilder,
                  there is so much cultural good that is now lost or reviled. This world
                  is so in need of gentility and nobility (but not fake, we have enough
                  of that)! I don't want to give up what we can still keep by orthopraxis.

                  Wishing all a Paschaltide bright and gay!

                  He is Risen indeed!

                  Sdn Martinian

                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                  <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians became
                  > much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful word a
                  > beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very sound
                  > and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in Russia
                  > the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings, beauty
                  > and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the faithful...
                  > maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
                  >
                  > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
                  > > At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
                  > > >Christ is Risen!
                  > >
                  > > Truly, He is Risen!
                  > >
                  > > >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
                  > candles at
                  > > >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
                  > >
                  > > ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red candles at
                  > a
                  > > ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
                  > Pentecost.
                  > > It's an interesting question.
                  > >
                  > > Anna V.
                  > > _________________________________________
                  > >
                  > > I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an image
                  > search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the photos
                  > the search engine came up with showed the small table with the two
                  > crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
                  > >
                  > > --Dimitra Dwelley
                  > > _______________________
                  > >
                  >
                • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  And RAINBOW!, how dare Rainbow be taken over by political ideologues, it is wonderful if it only represented to some the joy of all peoples together, that s
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 4 5:33 PM
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                    And RAINBOW!, how dare Rainbow be taken over by political ideologues,
                    it is wonderful if it only represented to some the joy of all peoples
                    together, that's fine, but again it included radical political
                    stripes and immoral activities also, how sad is that. We are taking
                    the RAINBOW back, too! We had a gay time at the picnic after the
                    summer shower, when the rainbow shone brightly above our heads!

                    Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Martinian Prince"
                    <riparianprince@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Chris is Risen!
                    >
                    > Father, bless!
                    >
                    > I beg you all not to consider things like gay and red "ruined by
                    evil
                    > ideologies" to us who honor and seek the Truth. Father Stefan is
                    > right, there IS yet hope! We had them first; they are still ours to
                    > take back. I submit this view: continue to fearlessly use those
                    things
                    > whose original meanings are innocent and good! We may be the last
                    > thing standing between a bit of good being snuffed out, usurped by
                    the
                    > spirit of Antichrist.
                    >
                    > I humbly yet firmly say that we should use these things unnaffected,
                    > in innocence and goodwill, as those exhorted to live in the world
                    and
                    > not be of it. Every good, noble, beautiful,righteous and holy thing
                    > will be taken by the enemy and twisted to suit his purposes, but
                    only
                    > as the world understands them--we are not of this world. We did not
                    > let the Arians take the word 'Christ'. Rightly, it is the big ideas
                    we
                    > should most fiercely defend. Why, however, should we give the world
                    > even the smallest word or concept? What has the world ever given us?
                    >
                    > Could this be a token way to "be as the little children" and in our
                    > own unnaffected use of the word, keep the innocence and simplicity
                    of
                    > gaiety alive? After growing up in the SF Bay Area, and had friends,
                    of
                    > a sort, who had fallen to the temptation implied, I know there is no
                    > mistake in the colors, words and symbols chosen to proclaim their
                    > accursed path. See how the demons have led these wretched dupes to
                    > wave a rainbow flag--the very symbol God gave to us as a promise to
                    > never again punish us for our sins by a destroying flood--as a
                    mockery
                    > of His mercy.
                    >
                    > I don't say this as a rebellion to what you said Father, but I heard
                    > your comment as a call to rebellion. I say no! I will not let words
                    be
                    > taken from me because those lost in darkness have forgotten their
                    > understanding. "God is with us,understand O ye nations, and submit
                    > yourselves!" We are the wards and keepers of those things that are
                    > good, noble, beautiful, righteous and holy. Consider them to be a
                    > prize to be won in the Unseen Warfare! I certainly feel this is so,
                    > but feelings can't be trusted, and I'm no authority.
                    >
                    > What do you think, Father Stefan? Do we do work for good by ignoring
                    > the implications that the world and the enemy have inflicted on
                    > traditional concepts and culture? When I read books by Charles
                    Dickens
                    > or the Little House on the Prairie series by Laura Ingalls Wilder,
                    > there is so much cultural good that is now lost or reviled. This
                    world
                    > is so in need of gentility and nobility (but not fake, we have
                    enough
                    > of that)! I don't want to give up what we can still keep by
                    orthopraxis.
                    >
                    > Wishing all a Paschaltide bright and gay!
                    >
                    > He is Risen indeed!
                    >
                    > Sdn Martinian
                    >
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                    > <StefanVPavlenko@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians
                    became
                    > > much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful
                    word a
                    > > beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very
                    sound
                    > > and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in
                    Russia
                    > > the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings,
                    beauty
                    > > and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the
                    faithful...
                    > > maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
                    > >
                    > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
                    > > > At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
                    > > > >Christ is Risen!
                    > > >
                    > > > Truly, He is Risen!
                    > > >
                    > > > >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
                    > > candles at
                    > > > >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
                    > > >
                    > > > ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red
                    candles at
                    > > a
                    > > > ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
                    > > Pentecost.
                    > > > It's an interesting question.
                    > > >
                    > > > Anna V.
                    > > > _________________________________________
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an
                    image
                    > > search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the
                    photos
                    > > the search engine came up with showed the small table with the
                    two
                    > > crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
                    > > >
                    > > > --Dimitra Dwelley
                    > > > _______________________
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • German Ciuba
                    I applaud subdeacon Martinian s essay and certainly agree with Fr Stefan s added comments about the rainbow. The proper use of language is a long-standing
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 10 9:29 AM
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                      I applaud subdeacon Martinian's essay and certainly agree with Fr
                      Stefan's added comments about the rainbow.
                      The proper use of language is a long-standing concern of mine. Language
                      can easily and subtly be manipulated by those with a particular agenda.
                      We are seeing this more and more now in this age of mass media and
                      instantaneous communication. In a single generation there have been many
                      words that have been misappropriated or rejected, often by the political
                      correctness lobby.
                      Though we must fight for the rainbow, I am afraid we have lost the word
                      gay. Most unfortunate! I agree that we should be able to use it in its
                      old sense. It's a perfectly good word, as long as people understand the
                      sense it which it used. But if a parish advertised a "gay parish picnic"
                      or something of that sort, I think it would attract the wrong kind of
                      attention. It's sad that sick people have taken over a nice (there's an
                      old-fashioned word from my childhood) word; it masks a reference to
                      their psycho-spiritual sickness. On the other hand, for those of us
                      brought up with the last of the Victorian culture of euphemisms, in
                      which a certain short word beginning with "s" was never mentioned in
                      polite conversation, even within the family circle, it is convenient to
                      have a word that is not so ugly as the sin to which it refers, of which
                      it is shameful even to speak, as St Paul says.
                      It seems a similar, and even worse, situation has occurred in
                      contemporary Russian. Slang is always changing, but at least few years
                      ago the word "goluboy" (blue) was being used to refer to the same people
                      who have taken over "gay." Imagine - the colour of the heavens, the
                      colour of the Mother of God being used for stubborn sinners! At least we
                      can substitute another word, such as "merry", for "gay", if we wish to
                      avoid misunderstanding and smirking. Blue, however, is one of those
                      basic words for which there is no substitute.
                      (By the way, I recall an instance some years ago, in a parish comprised
                      of mostly elderly Russian immigrants, where I was told that red covers
                      were not desirable in church, because red is Soviet.)
                      I will continue to speak English as I learned it over fifty years ago.
                      It is true that language changes, but we can resist the change, refuse
                      to go along with it, till no one understnads us any more, and then we
                      can translate for them into another idiom. This is the value of "King
                      James" English or Church Slavonic - words that are used in a fixed and
                      anciently accepted way, not subject to the sway of newspaper columnists,
                      rappers or university language police.
                      A basic English word for which we _must _contend is the word "man." This
                      is a word for which there is no substitute. Those who either
                      deliberately or unthinkingly accept the PC rejection of its age-old
                      meaning of God's rational and physical creature frequently resort to the
                      circumlocution of "human being." That sounds like a scientific term, not
                      an ordinary word. Must we soon refer to pets (another word that some
                      wish to outlaw) as "feline beings" and "canine beings," or ride "equine
                      beings," or drink milk from "bovine beings"? Or else they resort to
                      "person" or "individual", which are proper and specific philosophical
                      and legal terms, but when overused in conversation sound like speech
                      from a Damon Runyon story, in which everyone is regularly referred to as
                      a "citizen." The refusal to use the word "man" in its common meaning is
                      part of an insidious plan to sexualize (sorry! there's that word) or
                      genderize all of language and, ultimately, all of life. I used to make
                      it a point to tell young people in church school classes that boys and
                      girls, men and women are all men, part of mankind, and each of us is a
                      man. ("Mankind was my business!" cried Marley's ghost.) Treatises could
                      be, and have been, written on the subject of the alteration of language
                      as a sign of the alteration of culture. (Perhaps someone could recommend
                      a favourite book on the subject.) It is always good to see a man jump to
                      the defence of his tongue.
                      Hieromonk German Ciuba


                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
                      >
                      > And RAINBOW!, how dare Rainbow be taken over by political ideologues,
                      > it is wonderful if it only represented to some the joy of all peoples
                      > together, that's fine, but again it included radical political
                      > stripes and immoral activities also, how sad is that. We are taking
                      > the RAINBOW back, too! We had a gay time at the picnic after the
                      > summer shower, when the rainbow shone brightly above our heads!
                      >
                      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      >
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:orthodox-synod%40yahoogroups.com>, "Martinian Prince"
                      > <riparianprince@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Chris is Risen!
                      > >
                      > > Father, bless!
                      > >
                      > > I beg you all not to consider things like gay and red "ruined by
                      > evil
                      > > ideologies" to us who honor and seek the Truth. Father Stefan is
                      > > right, there IS yet hope! We had them first; they are still ours to
                      > > take back. I submit this view: continue to fearlessly use those
                      > things
                      > > whose original meanings are innocent and good! We may be the last
                      > > thing standing between a bit of good being snuffed out, usurped by
                      > the
                      > > spirit of Antichrist.
                      > >
                      > > I humbly yet firmly say that we should use these things unnaffected,
                      > > in innocence and goodwill, as those exhorted to live in the world
                      > and
                      > > not be of it. Every good, noble, beautiful,righteous and holy thing
                      > > will be taken by the enemy and twisted to suit his purposes, but
                      > only
                      > > as the world understands them--we are not of this world. We did not
                      > > let the Arians take the word 'Christ'. Rightly, it is the big ideas
                      > we
                      > > should most fiercely defend. Why, however, should we give the world
                      > > even the smallest word or concept? What has the world ever given us?
                      > >
                      > > Could this be a token way to "be as the little children" and in our
                      > > own unnaffected use of the word, keep the innocence and simplicity
                      > of
                      > > gaiety alive? After growing up in the SF Bay Area, and had friends,
                      > of
                      > > a sort, who had fallen to the temptation implied, I know there is no
                      > > mistake in the colors, words and symbols chosen to proclaim their
                      > > accursed path. See how the demons have led these wretched dupes to
                      > > wave a rainbow flag--the very symbol God gave to us as a promise to
                      > > never again punish us for our sins by a destroying flood--as a
                      > mockery
                      > > of His mercy.
                      > >
                      > > I don't say this as a rebellion to what you said Father, but I heard
                      > > your comment as a call to rebellion. I say no! I will not let words
                      > be
                      > > taken from me because those lost in darkness have forgotten their
                      > > understanding. "God is with us,understand O ye nations, and submit
                      > > yourselves!" We are the wards and keepers of those things that are
                      > > good, noble, beautiful, righteous and holy. Consider them to be a
                      > > prize to be won in the Unseen Warfare! I certainly feel this is so,
                      > > but feelings can't be trusted, and I'm no authority.
                      > >
                      > > What do you think, Father Stefan? Do we do work for good by ignoring
                      > > the implications that the world and the enemy have inflicted on
                      > > traditional concepts and culture? When I read books by Charles
                      > Dickens
                      > > or the Little House on the Prairie series by Laura Ingalls Wilder,
                      > > there is so much cultural good that is now lost or reviled. This
                      > world
                      > > is so in need of gentility and nobility (but not fake, we have
                      > enough
                      > > of that)! I don't want to give up what we can still keep by
                      > orthopraxis.
                      > >
                      > > Wishing all a Paschaltide bright and gay!
                      > >
                      > > He is Risen indeed!
                      > >
                      > > Sdn Martinian
                      > >
                      > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:orthodox-synod%40yahoogroups.com>, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                      > > <StefanVPavlenko@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The color "red", crimson/ very bright red, for emigre Russians
                      > became
                      > > > much like the word "gay" in the English Language. A wonderful
                      > word a
                      > > > beautiful color ruined by evil ideologies that make the very
                      > sound
                      > > > and sight distasteful and symbolizing an abomination. But in
                      > Russia
                      > > > the color Red was always intertwined with stronger meanings,
                      > beauty
                      > > > and joy, so they stayed more firmly in the body of the
                      > faithful...
                      > > > maybe there is still hope for the word GAY!
                      > > >
                      > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:orthodox-synod%40yahoogroups.com>, DDD <dimitradd@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Wed, 02 May 2007 17:46:20 -0500, Anna Voellmecke wrote:
                      > > > > At 01:14 AM 5/2/2007, you wrote:
                      > > > > >Christ is Risen!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Truly, He is Risen!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >Can someone tell me what is with those horrible "blood-red"
                      > > > candles at
                      > > > > >Boris Yeltsin's funeral??
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ???? I didn't get to see the video, but I have seen red
                      > candles at
                      > > > a
                      > > > > ROCOR cathedral in Munich. I thought it was because it was
                      > > > Pentecost.
                      > > > > It's an interesting question.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Anna V.
                      > > > > _________________________________________
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't know about them, either, but I recently was doing an
                      > image
                      > > > search for photos of Russian wedding crowns, and one of the
                      > photos
                      > > > the search engine came up with showed the small table with the
                      > two
                      > > > crowns on it and two RED candles! ??
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --Dimitra Dwelley
                      > > > > _______________________
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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