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M.Herman of OCA meets with B.Mercury

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  • michael nikitin
    When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do... concelebrate or take off his
    Message 1 of 6 , May 3, 2007
      When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a
      bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do...
      concelebrate or take off his vestments and refuse to serve?

      Will Fr's John and Alexander take a blessing and concelebrate
      with B. Lazar of the OCA?

      Michael N


      http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?page=36093

      Meeting of OCA's leader with the administrator of the
      Patriarchal parishes in the USA

      SUMMARY: The leader of the OCA, Metropolitan Herman, met with
      Bishop Mercury, administrator of the MP parishes in the USA on
      May 1, 2007 in Syosset– at the initiative of B.Mercury.

      During their lengthy meeting, opinions were exchanged on the
      present stage of development of inter-Orthodox relations, in
      particular in view of the process of ROCOR's reunification with
      the MP. The MP's membership in SCOBA was discussed. Met. Herman
      and Bishop Mercury also discussed joint actions in connection
      with the 200 anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic
      relations between Russia and the United States.

      Archpriest Leonid Kishkovsky, assistant to the administrator
      (chancellor) of the OCA, and, Archpriest Alexander Abramov,
      secretary of the MP Representation in the USA, also
      participated in the discussion.







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    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      CHRIST IS RISEN! ... JRS: There can be exceptions when dealing with specific individuals.
      Message 2 of 6 , May 3, 2007
        CHRIST IS RISEN!

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
        >
        > When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a
        > bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do...
        > concelebrate or take off his vestments and refuse to serve?
        >
        > Will Fr's John and Alexander take a blessing and concelebrate
        > with B. Lazar of the OCA?

        JRS: There can be exceptions when dealing with specific individuals.
      • Alexandra Svetlov
        Fr John, How Donatist of you.... Seems like just yesterday the anti-unia people were being accused of unforgiving and uncanonical views on the suspect MP
        Message 3 of 6 , May 5, 2007
          Fr John,

          How Donatist of you....

          Seems like just yesterday the anti-unia people were being accused of
          unforgiving and uncanonical views on the suspect MP clergy and now OCA
          B Lazar may be meeting with the same type of reaction from those who
          accused others of being unforgiving. Tut, Tut! And a fully canonical
          Bishop blessed and supported by the "mother Church" too...

          This will not earn brownie points with the "mother Church" in the long
          haul.

          But then, should not all ROCOR clergy and lay people moving to join
          the MP really move under the OCA umbrella anyway? That's if they want
          to continue with the pretence of maintaining canonicity. After all the
          OCA is the Russian Autocephalic Church in the geographical region of
          America (made so by the "mother Church").

          "it follows that the Orthodox Church of America (OCA) is the proper,
          canonically legitimate, autocephalous administration of the Orthodox
          Church in the geographical locale of America .* According to Orthodox
          Church canons, there can be only one unified Orthodox Church
          administration and hierarchy serving any one geographical area. It is
          also a heresy of the Orthodox Church, called "phyletism," for two
          separately administered Orthodox Church hierarchies to exist in the
          same location, segregated on the basis of nationality or ethnicity.
          Since the Moscow Patriarchate, itself, granted official autocephalous
          status to the Orthodox Church of America in 1970, it would be
          countermanding its own official edicts by sanctioning and supervising
          the administration of a separate "Russian" Church in North America
          now. It would also be participating, officially, in an heretical act
          of "phyletism," and, hence, in open "schism" from the true Orthodox
          Church" (from Pravoslavnik)

          But I suppose that is really no obstacle, for those falling away from
          ROCOR into the Schismatic body of the MP, that they will uncanonically
          have a separate Metrapolitan too.

          All these canonical breaches are nothing compared to joining the
          "church" of the persecutors of Christ, even with the legion of
          logical/political good reasons to do so.

          May God have mercy on all of us.

          In Christ our Lord,
          alexandra

          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > CHRIST IS RISEN!
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
          <nikitinmike@> wrote:
          > >
          > > When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a
          > > bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do...
          > > concelebrate or take off his vestments and refuse to serve?
          > >
          > > Will Fr's John and Alexander take a blessing and concelebrate
          > > with B. Lazar of the OCA?
          >
          > JRS: There can be exceptions when dealing with specific individuals.
          >
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          There are some very Russian OCA parishes (who is surprised?) that just might want to be aligned with the Russian Church Abroad and some very non-ethnic OCA
          Message 4 of 6 , May 6, 2007
            There are some very "Russian" OCA parishes (who is surprised?) that
            just might want to be aligned with the Russian Church Abroad and some
            very "non-ethnic" OCA parishes that are thinking of aligning with the
            Antiochian Church now that it has a new relationship or standing with
            its own Mother Church. Time will only tell what the future holds
            for "American Orthodoxy!" may God Grant us all to see a United
            Orthodox Church in the United States---or better in all of North
            America!
            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Alexandra Svetlov"
            <asvetlov@...> wrote:
            >
            > Fr John,
            >
            > How Donatist of you....
            >
            > Seems like just yesterday the anti-unia people were being accused of
            > unforgiving and uncanonical views on the suspect MP clergy and now
            OCA
            > B Lazar may be meeting with the same type of reaction from those who
            > accused others of being unforgiving. Tut, Tut! And a fully canonical
            > Bishop blessed and supported by the "mother Church" too...
            >
            > This will not earn brownie points with the "mother Church" in the
            long
            > haul.
            >
            > But then, should not all ROCOR clergy and lay people moving to join
            > the MP really move under the OCA umbrella anyway? That's if they
            want
            > to continue with the pretence of maintaining canonicity. After all
            the
            > OCA is the Russian Autocephalic Church in the geographical region of
            > America (made so by the "mother Church").
            >
            > "it follows that the Orthodox Church of America (OCA) is the proper,
            > canonically legitimate, autocephalous administration of the Orthodox
            > Church in the geographical locale of America .* According to
            Orthodox
            > Church canons, there can be only one unified Orthodox Church
            > administration and hierarchy serving any one geographical area. It
            is
            > also a heresy of the Orthodox Church, called "phyletism," for two
            > separately administered Orthodox Church hierarchies to exist in the
            > same location, segregated on the basis of nationality or ethnicity.
            > Since the Moscow Patriarchate, itself, granted official
            autocephalous
            > status to the Orthodox Church of America in 1970, it would be
            > countermanding its own official edicts by sanctioning and
            supervising
            > the administration of a separate "Russian" Church in North America
            > now. It would also be participating, officially, in an heretical act
            > of "phyletism," and, hence, in open "schism" from the true Orthodox
            > Church" (from Pravoslavnik)
            >
            > But I suppose that is really no obstacle, for those falling away
            from
            > ROCOR into the Schismatic body of the MP, that they will
            uncanonically
            > have a separate Metrapolitan too.
            >
            > All these canonical breaches are nothing compared to joining the
            > "church" of the persecutors of Christ, even with the legion of
            > logical/political good reasons to do so.
            >
            > May God have mercy on all of us.
            >
            > In Christ our Lord,
            > alexandra
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            > <vrevjrs@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > CHRIST IS RISEN!
            > >
            > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
            > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a
            > > > bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do...
            > > > concelebrate or take off his vestments and refuse to serve?
            > > >
            > > > Will Fr's John and Alexander take a blessing and concelebrate
            > > > with B. Lazar of the OCA?
            > >
            > > JRS: There can be exceptions when dealing with specific
            individuals.
            > >
            >
          • Rebecca M
            ... Of course this will never happen. As a *practical* matter (instead of hyper-jesuitical spinning of hypothetical possibilities), no bishop is going to serve
            Message 5 of 6 , May 7, 2007
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
              <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
              >
              > When the MP invites a bishop from ROCOR to concelebrate and a
              > bishop from the OCA arrives what will the bishop of ROCOR do...
              > concelebrate or take off his vestments and refuse to serve?
              >
              > Will Fr's John and Alexander take a blessing and concelebrate
              > with B. Lazar of the OCA?
              >
              > Michael N
              >

              Of course this will never happen.

              As a *practical* matter (instead of hyper-jesuitical spinning of
              hypothetical possibilities), no bishop is going to serve in
              another's jurisdiction (which has to be understood not only as
              territory but as particular temples in this case because of
              overlapping geographies) except by invitation of the presiding
              bishop.

              No presiding bishop of any of the entities involved would invite Bp.
              Lazar/former Dcn. Lev to celebrate if an ROCOR bishop or clergyman
              was present. The accepted-as-retired-bishop person in question has
              no diocese, so only goes where he's specifically invited.

              And as for other OCA bishops, none would be invited except by prior
              arrangement, and none would come without prior arrangement and
              approval by all involved. It's ecclesiastical manners and decorum.

              Rebecca
            • Rebecca M
              ... that ... some ... the ... with ... Obviously, the OCA is living through very trying times right now. I d be very cautious about hoping or speculating that
              Message 6 of 6 , May 7, 2007
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                >
                > There are some very "Russian" OCA parishes (who is surprised?)
                that
                > just might want to be aligned with the Russian Church Abroad and
                some
                > very "non-ethnic" OCA parishes that are thinking of aligning with
                the
                > Antiochian Church now that it has a new relationship or standing
                with
                > its own Mother Church. Time will only tell what the future holds
                > for "American Orthodoxy!" may God Grant us all to see a United
                > Orthodox Church in the United States---or better in all of North
                > America!
                > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                >


                Obviously, the OCA is living through very trying times right now.
                I'd be very cautious about hoping or speculating that parishes might
                re-shuffle among the existing jurisdictions. Such shennanigans tend
                to breed animosity all around and, therefore, to delay our hoped and
                prayed for eventual unity.

                Rebecca
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