Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re Copts and Armenians singing

Expand Messages
  • Bushunow, Peter
    ... had our ... you know, ... from ... hell, ... Weddings ARE a liturgy, and should be conducted by orthodox participants in a prayerful manner. During divine
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Vova writes:
      >"Akathists are sometimes even done in Unitarian churches. We've even
      had our
      >Jewish baritone do some wonderful solos for Orthodox weddings, and as
      you know,
      >Orthodox weddings are a liturgy, not some contrived nonsense. Far be it
      from
      >me to determine the Holy Spirit's intent, but if I get judged to go to
      hell,
      >it will probably not be because of the pseudotheologians on this list!"

      Weddings ARE a liturgy, and should be conducted by orthodox participants
      in a prayerful manner. During divine services, we unite in prayer. The
      reader or choir may be chanting and we are praying internally, but we
      ARE indeed praying with them, and they are praying with us. Weddings,
      and divine services in general are not a time for show of personal
      talent, or singing that evokes passions.

      Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing does not
      invalidate the entire congregation's prayer, but how can a couple who is
      asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo or
      lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings himself to
      sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his fingers
      crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
      Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
      Peter


      **********************************************************************
      This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
      intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
      are addressed. If you have received this email in error please delete it from your system.

      This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for
      the presence of computer viruses.

      Thank You,
      Viahealth
      **********************************************************************


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      We pray that the person, who ever he might be, would in due time be affected by the Grace of the Holy Spirit reflected in the prayers he sings and that it was
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        We pray that the person, who ever he might be, would in due time be
        affected by the Grace of the Holy Spirit reflected in the prayers he
        sings and that it was in God's Providence that he was brought to the
        Church for his salvation...

        ...then again one could "rejoice" that this miserable heretic sinner
        had his nose stuck directly into SALVATION and rejected it and will
        therefore pay dearly in eternal hell for his obstinacy!

        I wonder which is closer to the hearts of Orthodox Christians.




        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Bushunow, Peter"
        <peter.bushunow@...> wrote:
        >
        > Vova writes:
        > >"Akathists are sometimes even done in Unitarian churches. We've
        even
        > had our
        > >Jewish baritone do some wonderful solos for Orthodox weddings, and
        as
        > you know,
        > >Orthodox weddings are a liturgy, not some contrived nonsense. Far
        be it
        > from
        > >me to determine the Holy Spirit's intent, but if I get judged to
        go to
        > hell,
        > >it will probably not be because of the pseudotheologians on this
        list!"
        >
        > Weddings ARE a liturgy, and should be conducted by orthodox
        participants
        > in a prayerful manner. During divine services, we unite in
        prayer. The
        > reader or choir may be chanting and we are praying internally, but
        we
        > ARE indeed praying with them, and they are praying with us.
        Weddings,
        > and divine services in general are not a time for show of personal
        > talent, or singing that evokes passions.
        >
        > Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing
        does not
        > invalidate the entire congregation's prayer, but how can a couple
        who is
        > asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo
        or
        > lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings
        himself to
        > sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his
        fingers
        > crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
        > Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
        > Peter
        >
        >
        >
        **********************************************************************
        > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
        > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
        > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
        delete it from your system.
        >
        > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept
        for
        > the presence of computer viruses.
        >
        > Thank You,
        > Viahealth
        >
        **********************************************************************
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • antiquariu@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, peter.bushunow@viahealth.org writes: Having a heterodox person participate in congregational
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          peter.bushunow@... writes:

          Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing does not
          invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire congregation'<WBR>s
          asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo or
          lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings himself to
          sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his fingers
          crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
          Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.




          Dear in-Christ Peter!

          As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led to a number
          of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for someone
          who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not as bad as
          that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother Roger from a
          previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles in support of
          the ROC.

          I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because he would
          have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the charity in your
          heart?

          And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic training,
          Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful Russian (sic!)
          Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and grow
          about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic country club.
          Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a lot of trouble
          when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have judged lest we be
          judged. . .

          Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the difference
          between right and wrong.

          Vova H.
          <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
          email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
          http://www.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • mary marczyk
          Vovo, Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter. These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish or otherwise. As
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Vovo,

            Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter. These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish or otherwise. As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable and inflammatory.

            I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion in 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even not at all believers of any type of Christianity. I found thisquite shocking. I felt the choir was for the concert halls to give a perfect choral execution of musical pieces rather than all choir members particpating in the liturgy by joining in prayer.

            It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir especially for liturgy. A choir in our church is given the gifts of beautiful music to create "heaven on earth". To evoke an atmosphere of being prayerful. We all know if a choir makes obvious mistakes how it disrupts our prayer, how much more can a lack of oneness in a choir then serve to undermine the overall creation of the liturgy in its' fullness.

            I have sung in semi professional choirs in Australia and I know that when a choir sings and everything is working, even a rest can be a moving moment. How much more uplifting and awesome it has been when I have sung in an orthodox choir who are praying to together, embracing the words prayerfully set to beautiful music.

            Orthodox church singing/choirs is not about perfect voices or performance, it is for prayer. Choir members should be praying, calling others to prayer -being at one and mindful of their responsibility in the service to both the celebrants, the parishioners and ultimately to GOD.

            I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather hear a choir of 3-4 people with average voices, as it is often more beautiful and conducive to prayer than a big choir with people who have perfectly trained voices.

            Mary

            antiquariu@... wrote:

            In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            peter.bushunow@... writes:

            Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing does not
            invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire congregation'<WBR>s
            asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo or
            lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings himself to
            sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his fingers
            crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
            Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.

            Dear in-Christ Peter!

            As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led to a number
            of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for someone
            who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not as bad as
            that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother Roger from a
            previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles in support of
            the ROC.

            I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because he would
            have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the charity in your
            heart?

            And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic training,
            Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful Russian (sic!)
            Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and grow
            about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic country club.
            Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a lot of trouble
            when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have judged lest we be
            judged. . .

            Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the difference
            between right and wrong.

            Vova H.
            <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
            email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
            http://www.aol.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
            Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • boulia_1
            Excuse me, Mary. In 1986 my father ( prisnomayatni , as Vl. Lavr says) was the choir director in Synod. Let me set tthe record straight. Name me one member of
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Excuse me, Mary. In 1986 my father ("prisnomayatni", as Vl. Lavr
              says) was the choir director in Synod. Let me set tthe record
              straight.

              Name me one member of the choir (paid or not) who was not Orthodox.

              You will not be able to, let me assure you. Although my father made
              it a policy of his not to dig into the souls of his singer (he was a
              regent, not a priest!), his first question to anyone seeking to joing
              the choir was "Vy krescheniy?" or "Vy pravoslavniy"? (Are you
              baptised? Are you Orthodox?) I know this because I was often present
              at those conversations, and was usually asked by my father to help
              evaluate the 'auditions' of people seeking to join the choir.

              Synod has always been a magnet for unstable personalities with
              nothing better to do than speculate on the worthiness of others and
              gossip and spread malicious rumours. Perhaps you got your scurrilous
              information from one of these sources?

              >>It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir especially
              >>for liturgy. <<


              Yes, and this is a responsibility my father undertook with supreme
              dedication and the highest level of professionalism, since the days
              of METROPOLIT ANASTASSY and through five years of devastating
              illness. His life's dedication to this aspect of church life was
              honored many times during his life, and ultimately at his funeral, at
              which THREE bishops (including the METROPOLITAN) and more than a
              DOZEN priests from across the U.S. served. So watch out about the
              aspersions you cast -- not everyone will agree.

              As for your, excuse me for saying so, *primitive* commentary about
              singing in semi-professional choirs and feeling uplifted, remember
              this: singing in a choir is not just about uplifting yourself, but
              the entire congregation. You may find it wonderful to sing with with
              untrained voices and, indeed, once in a while, you find a group of
              hobbyists who do manage to sing peacefully and in tune and
              prayerfully. I strove for this with my own unpaid choir in Berlin.

              But there's nothing worse than a choir of holy rollers with attitude,
              who think that a church choir needs to sound meek and whiny, or that
              quality singing is unprayerful. Don't make the mistake of believing
              that a trained singer with a beautiful voice who attends to vocal
              technique cannot be one who prays as s/he sings. That's just wrong
              and patently unfair to those of us who have been making efforts all
              our lives to bring something extra to church, and to develop
              our "talents" to offer them in service for the glory of God.


              In Christ's love,
              Elizabeth A. Ledkovsky


              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Vovo,
              >
              > Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter.
              These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish
              or otherwise. As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable
              and inflammatory.
              >
              > I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion
              in 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even
              not at all believers of any type of Christianity. I found thisquite
              shocking. I felt the choir was for the concert halls to give a
              perfect choral execution of musical pieces rather than all choir
              members particpating in the liturgy by joining in prayer.
              >
              > It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir
              especially for liturgy. A choir in our church is given the gifts of
              beautiful music to create "heaven on earth". To evoke an atmosphere
              of being prayerful. We all know if a choir makes obvious mistakes
              how it disrupts our prayer, how much more can a lack of oneness in a
              choir then serve to undermine the overall creation of the liturgy in
              its' fullness.
              >
              > I have sung in semi professional choirs in Australia and I know
              that when a choir sings and everything is working, even a rest can be
              a moving moment. How much more uplifting and awesome it has been
              when I have sung in an orthodox choir who are praying to together,
              embracing the words prayerfully set to beautiful music.
              >
              > Orthodox church singing/choirs is not about perfect voices or
              performance, it is for prayer. Choir members should be praying,
              calling others to prayer -being at one and mindful of their
              responsibility in the service to both the celebrants, the
              parishioners and ultimately to GOD.
              >
              > I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather hear a choir
              of 3-4 people with average voices, as it is often more beautiful and
              conducive to prayer than a big choir with people who have perfectly
              trained voices.
              >
              > Mary
              >
              > antiquariu@... wrote:
              >
              > In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              > peter.bushunow@... writes:
              >
              > Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing
              does not
              > invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire
              congregation'<WBR>s
              > asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo
              or
              > lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings
              himself to
              > sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his
              fingers
              > crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
              > Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
              >
              > Dear in-Christ Peter!
              >
              > As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led to
              a number
              > of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for
              someone
              > who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not as
              bad as
              > that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother
              Roger from a
              > previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles in
              support of
              > the ROC.
              >
              > I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because he
              would
              > have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the
              charity in your
              > heart?
              >
              > And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic
              training,
              > Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful
              Russian (sic!)
              > Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and
              grow
              > about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic
              country club.
              > Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a lot
              of trouble
              > when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have judged
              lest we be
              > judged. . .
              >
              > Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the
              difference
              > between right and wrong.
              >
              > Vova H.
              > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
              offers free
              > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
              > http://www.aol.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Send instant messages to your online friends
              http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
              > Send instant messages to your online friends
              http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Hristofor/ХристофорЪ
              I think that you inadvertently responded to Vova, when in fact Peter Bushinow had made the remarks. (Reminder to all: Netiquette etiquette asks that when
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                I think that you inadvertently responded to Vova, when in fact Peter
                Bushinow had made the remarks. (Reminder to all: Netiquette etiquette asks
                that when responding to some one's post, pls cut & paste and copy only the
                pertinent text. It becomes very difficult to follow threads when you respond
                to a post which already may contain umpteen posts within it. )

                I would have thought that all non-Orthodox would not be allowed in the
                Altar. After all, catecuchmens asked to leave the church itself during the
                Consecration.

                Alas, according to a recent conversation with Peter Fekula, there still are
                paid non Orthodox in the Synodal choir. We need to encourage our teenage
                Orthodox to become singers!

                On 3/2/07, mary marczyk <dodee842@...> wrote:
                >
                > Vovo,
                >
                > Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter. These
                > rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish or otherwise.
                > As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable and inflammatory.
                >
                > I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion in 1986
                > that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even not at all
                > believers of any type of Christianity.
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • blinachka
                Mary, You wrote: ... 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even not at all believers of any type of Christianity. The above is simply
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Mary,
                  You wrote:
                  ..."1986 that
                  there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even not at all
                  believers of
                  any type of Christianity."

                  The above is simply put - a lie. My father, Alexander Ledkovsky, was
                  the choir director and he always made sure that all members of his
                  choir were baptised.

                  Also - there is nothing worse and less conducive to prayer than
                  standing in church and feeling as though your ears will start
                  bleeding because the choir is so awful. Those who cannot sing in tune
                  have no business singing in a public setting. It is a huge
                  distraction. There is nothing worse to than realize that you are
                  praying for the choir to stop because they are so bad....no matter
                  how well intentioned they might be.


                  -Nina Ledkovsky


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Vovo,
                  >
                  > Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter.
                  These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish
                  or otherwise. As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable
                  and inflammatory.
                  >
                  > I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion
                  in 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even
                  not at all believers of any type of Christianity. I found thisquite
                  shocking. I felt the choir was for the concert halls to give a
                  perfect choral execution of musical pieces rather than all choir
                  members particpating in the liturgy by joining in prayer.
                  >
                  > It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir
                  especially for liturgy. A choir in our church is given the gifts of
                  beautiful music to create "heaven on earth". To evoke an atmosphere
                  of being prayerful. We all know if a choir makes obvious mistakes
                  how it disrupts our prayer, how much more can a lack of oneness in a
                  choir then serve to undermine the overall creation of the liturgy in
                  its' fullness.
                  >
                  > I have sung in semi professional choirs in Australia and I know
                  that when a choir sings and everything is working, even a rest can be
                  a moving moment. How much more uplifting and awesome it has been
                  when I have sung in an orthodox choir who are praying to together,
                  embracing the words prayerfully set to beautiful music.
                  >
                  > Orthodox church singing/choirs is not about perfect voices or
                  performance, it is for prayer. Choir members should be praying,
                  calling others to prayer -being at one and mindful of their
                  responsibility in the service to both the celebrants, the
                  parishioners and ultimately to GOD.
                  >
                  > I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather hear a choir
                  of 3-4 people with average voices, as it is often more beautiful and
                  conducive to prayer than a big choir with people who have perfectly
                  trained voices.
                  >
                  > Mary
                  >
                  > antiquariu@... wrote:
                  >
                  > In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                  > peter.bushunow@... writes:
                  >
                  > Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing
                  does not
                  > invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire
                  congregation'<WBR>s
                  > asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo
                  or
                  > lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings
                  himself to
                  > sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his
                  fingers
                  > crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
                  > Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
                  >
                  > Dear in-Christ Peter!
                  >
                  > As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led to
                  a number
                  > of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for
                  someone
                  > who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not as
                  bad as
                  > that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother
                  Roger from a
                  > previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles in
                  support of
                  > the ROC.
                  >
                  > I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because he
                  would
                  > have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the
                  charity in your
                  > heart?
                  >
                  > And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic
                  training,
                  > Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful
                  Russian (sic!)
                  > Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and
                  grow
                  > about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic
                  country club.
                  > Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a lot
                  of trouble
                  > when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have judged
                  lest we be
                  > judged. . .
                  >
                  > Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the
                  difference
                  > between right and wrong.
                  >
                  > Vova H.
                  > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
                  offers free
                  > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
                  > http://www.aol.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                  > Send instant messages to your online friends
                  http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • mary marczyk
                  Elizabeth, Firstly, if I have offended you -for that I am sincerely sorry. However what I have stated is the truth about my experience with Synodal choir in
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Elizabeth,

                    Firstly, if I have offended you -for that I am sincerely sorry. However what I have stated is the truth about my experience with Synodal choir in 1986. I do not know any names of the people in this choir and so cannot tell you any names names.

                    I am aware of your father's status and talent and that is to respected. I mean no ill will.

                    My comment is that I do not think having paid unchristian members in a RO church choir is appropriate, anywhere.

                    As for your other comments in the last couple of paragraphs you distort what I have said.

                    Sincerely MAry


                    boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                    Excuse me, Mary. In 1986 my father ("prisnomayatni", as Vl. Lavr
                    says) was the choir director in Synod. Let me set tthe record
                    straight.

                    Name me one member of the choir (paid or not) who was not Orthodox.

                    You will not be able to, let me assure you. Although my father made
                    it a policy of his not to dig into the souls of his singer (he was a
                    regent, not a priest!), his first question to anyone seeking to joing
                    the choir was "Vy krescheniy?" or "Vy pravoslavniy"? (Are you
                    baptised? Are you Orthodox?) I know this because I was often present
                    at those conversations, and was usually asked by my father to help
                    evaluate the 'auditions' of people seeking to join the choir.

                    Synod has always been a magnet for unstable personalities with
                    nothing better to do than speculate on the worthiness of others and
                    gossip and spread malicious rumours. Perhaps you got your scurrilous
                    information from one of these sources?

                    >>It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir especially
                    >>for liturgy. <<

                    Yes, and this is a responsibility my father undertook with supreme
                    dedication and the highest level of professionalism, since the days
                    of METROPOLIT ANASTASSY and through five years of devastating
                    illness. His life's dedication to this aspect of church life was
                    honored many times during his life, and ultimately at his funeral, at
                    which THREE bishops (including the METROPOLITAN) and more than a
                    DOZEN priests from across the U.S. served. So watch out about the
                    aspersions you cast -- not everyone will agree.

                    As for your, excuse me for saying so, *primitive* commentary about
                    singing in semi-professional choirs and feeling uplifted, remember
                    this: singing in a choir is not just about uplifting yourself, but
                    the entire congregation. You may find it wonderful to sing with with
                    untrained voices and, indeed, once in a while, you find a group of
                    hobbyists who do manage to sing peacefully and in tune and
                    prayerfully. I strove for this with my own unpaid choir in Berlin.

                    But there's nothing worse than a choir of holy rollers with attitude,
                    who think that a church choir needs to sound meek and whiny, or that
                    quality singing is unprayerful. Don't make the mistake of believing
                    that a trained singer with a beautiful voice who attends to vocal
                    technique cannot be one who prays as s/he sings. That's just wrong
                    and patently unfair to those of us who have been making efforts all
                    our lives to bring something extra to church, and to develop
                    our "talents" to offer them in service for the glory of God.

                    In Christ's love,
                    Elizabeth A. Ledkovsky

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Vovo,
                    >
                    > Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter.
                    These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s Jewish
                    or otherwise. As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable
                    and inflammatory.
                    >
                    > I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion
                    in 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members, even
                    not at all believers of any type of Christianity. I found thisquite
                    shocking. I felt the choir was for the concert halls to give a
                    perfect choral execution of musical pieces rather than all choir
                    members particpating in the liturgy by joining in prayer.
                    >
                    > It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir
                    especially for liturgy. A choir in our church is given the gifts of
                    beautiful music to create "heaven on earth". To evoke an atmosphere
                    of being prayerful. We all know if a choir makes obvious mistakes
                    how it disrupts our prayer, how much more can a lack of oneness in a
                    choir then serve to undermine the overall creation of the liturgy in
                    its' fullness.
                    >
                    > I have sung in semi professional choirs in Australia and I know
                    that when a choir sings and everything is working, even a rest can be
                    a moving moment. How much more uplifting and awesome it has been
                    when I have sung in an orthodox choir who are praying to together,
                    embracing the words prayerfully set to beautiful music.
                    >
                    > Orthodox church singing/choirs is not about perfect voices or
                    performance, it is for prayer. Choir members should be praying,
                    calling others to prayer -being at one and mindful of their
                    responsibility in the service to both the celebrants, the
                    parishioners and ultimately to GOD.
                    >
                    > I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather hear a choir
                    of 3-4 people with average voices, as it is often more beautiful and
                    conducive to prayer than a big choir with people who have perfectly
                    trained voices.
                    >
                    > Mary
                    >
                    > antiquariu@... wrote:
                    >
                    > In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    > peter.bushunow@... writes:
                    >
                    > Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing
                    does not
                    > invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire
                    congregation'<WBR>s
                    > asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a solo
                    or
                    > lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings
                    himself to
                    > sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his
                    fingers
                    > crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
                    > Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
                    >
                    > Dear in-Christ Peter!
                    >
                    > As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led to
                    a number
                    > of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for
                    someone
                    > who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not as
                    bad as
                    > that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother
                    Roger from a
                    > previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles in
                    support of
                    > the ROC.
                    >
                    > I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because he
                    would
                    > have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the
                    charity in your
                    > heart?
                    >
                    > And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic
                    training,
                    > Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful
                    Russian (sic!)
                    > Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and
                    grow
                    > about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic
                    country club.
                    > Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a lot
                    of trouble
                    > when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have judged
                    lest we be
                    > judged. . .
                    >
                    > Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the
                    difference
                    > between right and wrong.
                    >
                    > Vova H.
                    > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
                    offers free
                    > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
                    > http://www.aol.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends
                    http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                    > Send instant messages to your online friends
                    http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • boulia_1
                    Dear Mary, I am truly sorry, because I do not want this to get into a catfight, but... I stand by what I said. You can t name names because there AREN T ANY.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Mary,

                      I am truly sorry, because I do not want this to get into a catfight,
                      but... I stand by what I said.

                      You can't name names because there AREN'T ANY.

                      The only explanation is that your belief is based on hearsay. Did you
                      survey the choir members, ask to see their baptismal records or
                      something?! Of course not! So who told you this lie? Moreover, if I
                      tell you with good authority that it is not true, why do you choose
                      to believe it anyway?

                      I will repeat that my father did NOT hire or accept volunteer singers
                      who were not baptised. He always made a POINT of checking this
                      matter, before he would even let people 'audition.' And, yes, he was
                      picky. He didn't let just anybody sing. Did he reject you? Maybe you
                      have an old axe to grind??...

                      Perhaps not all of the singers who have ever been part of the Synod
                      Choir have been the most *outwardly* religious, but, paki i paki I
                      tell you, no one that my father accepted into the choir (paid or not)
                      was anything other than a baptised Orthodox Christian. Therefore,
                      your information is categorically incorrect, and you owe an apology
                      for spreading falsities. Furthermore, I ask you to consider where it
                      is, or from whom, that you got this information that you seem so sure
                      about.

                      And, yes, I have to say, unfortunately, you offend me with your
                      comments. For your "comment" ( <<that I do not think having paid
                      unchristian members in a RO church choir is appropriate, anywhere.>>)
                      is one with which my father would have agreed, yet you are telling
                      tales that make it seem as if that were not the case.

                      As for the current choir(per Hristofor's comment), I'm not sure that
                      there are unbaptised singers now, either, but, there are
                      several 'unchurchly' ones that have been taken on since my father's
                      time there... Maybe with God's grace, their participation in the
                      choir and a little leadership, they'll come to understand the gravity
                      of their role. My experience is that those who are not churchly don't
                      stick around too long, paid or not paid, unless they feel moved
                      to "get into it" -- and, sometimes, praise God, this happens!

                      In Christ's love,
                      Elizabeth


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Elizabeth,
                      >
                      > Firstly, if I have offended you -for that I am sincerely sorry.
                      However what I have stated is the truth about my experience with
                      Synodal choir in 1986. I do not know any names of the people in this
                      choir and so cannot tell you any names names.
                      >
                      > I am aware of your father's status and talent and that is to
                      respected. I mean no ill will.
                      >
                      > My comment is that I do not think having paid unchristian members
                      in a RO church choir is appropriate, anywhere.
                      >
                      > As for your other comments in the last couple of paragraphs you
                      distort what I have said.
                      >
                      > Sincerely MAry
                      >
                      >
                    • blinachka
                      Mary, You wrote: My comment is that I do not think having paid unchristian members in a RO church choir is appropriate, anywhere. As far as the Synod choir
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Mary,
                        You wrote:
                        "My comment is that I do not think having paid unchristian members in
                        a RO
                        church choir is appropriate, anywhere."

                        As far as the Synod choir goes in 1986 (and the entire time my and
                        Elizabeth's father was regent) there were never paid non-Christians
                        in the choir. Ever. It is a simple fact that Elizabeth and I are much
                        more qualified to know this than you are. You are simply mistaken
                        about the facts of the Synod choir in 1986. End of story.

                        -Nina Ledkovsky



                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Elizabeth,
                        >
                        > Firstly, if I have offended you -for that I am sincerely sorry.
                        However what I have stated is the truth about my experience with
                        Synodal choir in 1986. I do not know any names of the people in this
                        choir and so cannot tell you any names names.
                        >
                        > I am aware of your father's status and talent and that is to
                        respected. I mean no ill will.
                        >
                        > My comment is that I do not think having paid unchristian members
                        in a RO church choir is appropriate, anywhere.
                        >
                        > As for your other comments in the last couple of paragraphs you
                        distort what I have said.
                        >
                        > Sincerely MAry
                        >
                        >
                        > boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                        > Excuse me, Mary. In 1986 my father ("prisnomayatni", as
                        Vl. Lavr
                        > says) was the choir director in Synod. Let me set tthe record
                        > straight.
                        >
                        > Name me one member of the choir (paid or not) who was not Orthodox.
                        >
                        > You will not be able to, let me assure you. Although my father made
                        > it a policy of his not to dig into the souls of his singer (he was
                        a
                        > regent, not a priest!), his first question to anyone seeking to
                        joing
                        > the choir was "Vy krescheniy?" or "Vy pravoslavniy"? (Are you
                        > baptised? Are you Orthodox?) I know this because I was often
                        present
                        > at those conversations, and was usually asked by my father to help
                        > evaluate the 'auditions' of people seeking to join the choir.
                        >
                        > Synod has always been a magnet for unstable personalities with
                        > nothing better to do than speculate on the worthiness of others and
                        > gossip and spread malicious rumours. Perhaps you got your
                        scurrilous
                        > information from one of these sources?
                        >
                        > >>It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir especially
                        > >>for liturgy. <<
                        >
                        > Yes, and this is a responsibility my father undertook with supreme
                        > dedication and the highest level of professionalism, since the days
                        > of METROPOLIT ANASTASSY and through five years of devastating
                        > illness. His life's dedication to this aspect of church life was
                        > honored many times during his life, and ultimately at his funeral,
                        at
                        > which THREE bishops (including the METROPOLITAN) and more than a
                        > DOZEN priests from across the U.S. served. So watch out about the
                        > aspersions you cast -- not everyone will agree.
                        >
                        > As for your, excuse me for saying so, *primitive* commentary about
                        > singing in semi-professional choirs and feeling uplifted, remember
                        > this: singing in a choir is not just about uplifting yourself, but
                        > the entire congregation. You may find it wonderful to sing with
                        with
                        > untrained voices and, indeed, once in a while, you find a group of
                        > hobbyists who do manage to sing peacefully and in tune and
                        > prayerfully. I strove for this with my own unpaid choir in Berlin.
                        >
                        > But there's nothing worse than a choir of holy rollers with
                        attitude,
                        > who think that a church choir needs to sound meek and whiny, or
                        that
                        > quality singing is unprayerful. Don't make the mistake of believing
                        > that a trained singer with a beautiful voice who attends to vocal
                        > technique cannot be one who prays as s/he sings. That's just wrong
                        > and patently unfair to those of us who have been making efforts all
                        > our lives to bring something extra to church, and to develop
                        > our "talents" to offer them in service for the glory of God.
                        >
                        > In Christ's love,
                        > Elizabeth A. Ledkovsky
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, mary marczyk <dodee842@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Vovo,
                        > >
                        > > Please remember the rules for who is allowed to enter the alter.
                        > These rules do allow non orthodox, especially non christian s
                        Jewish
                        > or otherwise. As for Anti semetism...your accusation is deplorable
                        > and inflammatory.
                        > >
                        > > I remember when I worked in Synod in New York for Vlad Hilarion
                        > in 1986 that there were paid non orthodox synodal choir members,
                        even
                        > not at all believers of any type of Christianity. I found thisquite
                        > shocking. I felt the choir was for the concert halls to give a
                        > perfect choral execution of musical pieces rather than all choir
                        > members particpating in the liturgy by joining in prayer.
                        > >
                        > > It is an awesome responsibility to sing & lead a choir
                        > especially for liturgy. A choir in our church is given the gifts of
                        > beautiful music to create "heaven on earth". To evoke an atmosphere
                        > of being prayerful. We all know if a choir makes obvious mistakes
                        > how it disrupts our prayer, how much more can a lack of oneness in
                        a
                        > choir then serve to undermine the overall creation of the liturgy
                        in
                        > its' fullness.
                        > >
                        > > I have sung in semi professional choirs in Australia and I know
                        > that when a choir sings and everything is working, even a rest can
                        be
                        > a moving moment. How much more uplifting and awesome it has been
                        > when I have sung in an orthodox choir who are praying to together,
                        > embracing the words prayerfully set to beautiful music.
                        > >
                        > > Orthodox church singing/choirs is not about perfect voices or
                        > performance, it is for prayer. Choir members should be praying,
                        > calling others to prayer -being at one and mindful of their
                        > responsibility in the service to both the celebrants, the
                        > parishioners and ultimately to GOD.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know about anyone else, but I would rather hear a choir
                        > of 3-4 people with average voices, as it is often more beautiful
                        and
                        > conducive to prayer than a big choir with people who have perfectly
                        > trained voices.
                        > >
                        > > Mary
                        > >
                        > > antiquariu@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > In a message dated 3/2/2007 7:02:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        > > peter.bushunow@ writes:
                        > >
                        > > Having a heterodox person participate in congregational singing
                        > does not
                        > > invalidate the entire congregation'invalidate the entire
                        > congregation'<WBR>s
                        > > asking for the church's blessings ask a non-believer to sing a
                        solo
                        > or
                        > > lead the congregation in prayer? I'm curious how a Jew brings
                        > himself to
                        > > sing a Christian prayer in a Christian church? Does he keep his
                        > fingers
                        > > crossed behind his back while he's singing so it doesn't count?
                        > > Citing an incorrect practice does not make it right.
                        > >
                        > > Dear in-Christ Peter!
                        > >
                        > > As someone else already opined, when Yale was doing this it led
                        to
                        > a number
                        > > of conversions. Your comment above sounds pretty anti-Semitic for
                        > someone
                        > > who purports to represent the "New Jerusalem." At least it's not
                        as
                        > bad as
                        > > that extremely unthoughtful and uncharitable attack on Brother
                        > Roger from a
                        > > previous poster, and that after Taize printed millions of bibles
                        in
                        > support of
                        > > the ROC.
                        > >
                        > > I am certainly glad that Christ was not a ROCie member, because
                        he
                        > would
                        > > have felt compelled to attack the Good Samaritan. Where's the
                        > charity in your
                        > > heart?
                        > >
                        > > And if it hadn't been for all of that wonderful Roman Catholic
                        > training,
                        > > Bortnyanskiy would not have been able to crank out that wonderful
                        > Russian (sic!)
                        > > Orthodox church music. I suggest that Orthodoxy will flourish and
                        > grow
                        > > about the time we stop thinking we are a private little ethnic
                        > country club.
                        > > Keep that blagodarometer tuned, because we're going to be in a
                        lot
                        > of trouble
                        > > when St Peter addresses us in Latin, asking whether we have
                        judged
                        > lest we be
                        > > judged. . .
                        > >
                        > > Have a great Lent, and maybe when I grow up, I too will know the
                        > difference
                        > > between right and wrong.
                        > >
                        > > Vova H.
                        > > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now
                        > offers free
                        > > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
                        > > http://www.aol.com
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                        > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                        > > Send instant messages to your online friends
                        > http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Send instant messages to your online friends
                        http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Hristofor/ХристофорЪ
                        Alas, I must confess, that even though the conversation was relatively recently, I honestly can t recall if Petya said if a non-Orthodox wanted to sing or does
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 3, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Alas, I must confess, that even though the conversation was relatively
                          recently, I honestly can't recall if Petya said if a non-Orthodox wanted to
                          sing or does sing. I guess faulty memories are how rumours can inadvertendly
                          get rolling. (Sigh!)

                          On 3/3/07, boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:

                          > As for the current choir(per Hristofor's comment), I'm not sure that
                          > there are unbaptised singers now, either, but, there are
                          > several 'unchurchly' ones that have been taken on since my father's
                          > time there... Maybe with God's grace, their participation in the
                          > choir and a little leadership, they'll come to understand the gravity
                          > of their role. My experience is that those who are not churchly don't
                          > stick around too long, paid or not paid, unless they feel moved
                          > to "get into it" -- and, sometimes, praise God, this happens!
                          >
                          > In Christ's love,
                          > Elizabeth
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • boulia_1
                          Right. I think today is a good to for it to be the end of this thread! By the way, any one in the NY area interested in how the Synod Choir (in expanded form)
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 4, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Right. I think today is a good to for it to be the end of this
                            thread!

                            By the way, any one in the NY area interested in how the Synod Choir
                            (in expanded form) is sounding, may attend a concert of same on
                            Tuesday, March 13, at the Society for Ethical Cutlure's concert hall
                            in Manhattan. We're preparing a diverse and challenging repertoire
                            of lenten music as well as hymns to the Mother of God.

                            Here's information about it in Russian:
                            http://www.synod.com/synod/2007/2synodconcert.html

                            It seems an English version was never posted... sorry!

                            --Elizabeth
                            --- In orthodox-
                            synod@yahoogroups.com, "Hristofor/ХристофорЪ"
                            <hristofor@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Alas, I must confess, that even though the conversation was
                            relatively
                            > recently, I honestly can't recall if Petya said if a non-Orthodox
                            wanted to
                            > sing or does sing. I guess faulty memories are how rumours can
                            inadvertendly
                            > get rolling. (Sigh!)
                            >
                            > On 3/3/07, boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > As for the current choir(per Hristofor's comment), I'm not sure
                            that
                            > > there are unbaptised singers now, either, but, there are
                            > > several 'unchurchly' ones that have been taken on since my
                            father's
                            > > time there... Maybe with God's grace, their participation in the
                            > > choir and a little leadership, they'll come to understand the
                            gravity
                            > > of their role. My experience is that those who are not churchly
                            don't
                            > > stick around too long, paid or not paid, unless they feel moved
                            > > to "get into it" -- and, sometimes, praise God, this happens!
                            > >
                            > > In Christ's love,
                            > > Elizabeth
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.