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Re: Copts and Armenians too now! Archbishop Mark leads the way.....?!?

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: Since when is it wrong to listen to choir concerts? Perhaps you still have a copy or two, somewhere, of Bishop Daniel of Erie s illustrated magazine,
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 1 8:42 AM
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

      > DIOCESE OF BERLIN AND GERMANY: February 28, 2007
      > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia Hosts
      > the Traditional "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs"...

      JRS: Since when is it wrong to listen to choir concerts?

      Perhaps you still have a copy or two, somewhere, of Bishop Daniel of Erie's illustrated
      magazine, printed ca. 1965-1966, in which he stated that the Coptic, Armenian, Latin and
      other traditions of church art, architecture, singing and liturgy all belonged to the heritage
      of the Orthodox Church?

      The magazine was called NASLEDIE in Russian, HERITAGE in English.

      St. Anthony the Great spoke no language except Coptic (Egyptian).

      Gregorian chant might also have been included in the choral presentation: it is an ancient
      form of church music that is fully documented from the 700's, long before the schism of
      Rome.

      All of these traditions are educational for us, in various ways.

      The Church has also been willing to accept them, when communities that follow them
      returned to Orthodoxy.

      Concelebration in vestments with non-Orthodox is one thing; but listening to choirs
      perform is another.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      Archbishop Averky would be overjoyed! He always hoped that Orthodox would act kindly toward the Copts and other near Orthodox so that they would gravitate
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 1 10:16 AM
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        Archbishop Averky would be overjoyed! He always hoped that Orthodox
        would act kindly toward the Copts and other near Orthodox so that
        they would gravitate toward unity with the Orthodox Church and not
        the Roman Catholic or Protestants. Singing together is a start!
        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > DIOCESE OF BERLIN AND GERMANY: February 28, 2007
        > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia
        Hosts
        > the Traditional "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs"
        >
        > The feast day of the Triumph of Orthodoxy was celebrated in the
        > Bavarian capital of Munich with an event called the "Meeting of
        > Orthodox Choirs," which has now become a tradition.
        >
        > Orthodoxy is the third Christian confession in Germany according to
        the
        > number of adherents, after Protestants and Roman Catholics: by some
        > estimates there are some one million Orthodox Christians in the
        > country. Orthodoxy is represented in Munich by communities of the
        > Moscow, Constantinople, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian and
        > Antiochian Patriarchates as well as the Russian Orthodox Church
        Outside
        > of Russia. Believers belonging to the Ancient Eastern Churches
        include
        > representatives of the Armenian, Coptic and Ethiopian diasporas.
        >
        > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia and
        St
        > Nicholas (ROCOR) was this year's host for the "Meeting of Orthodox
        > Choirs."
        >
        > The event opened with a brief welcome by His Eminence Archbishop
        Mark
        > of Berlin and Germany. Ten choirs, comprising over 120 singers,
        > demonstrated the beauty of liturgical music, representing the
        Greek,
        > Georgian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian and Russian Orthodox
        Churches.
        > Participating also were singers from the Armenian Apostolic Church
        and
        > the Youth and Children's Choir of the Coptic Church. Among the
        > participants were Orthodox Christians from various émigré
        communities
        > of different ages, students of the Theological Department of the
        > University of Munich and of higher music schools as well as
        > professional singers.
        >
        > Church singing is a form of "adorning the discourse," playing an
        > important role in spiritual communion with God and His Saints. The
        > "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" demonstrated various repertories and
        > styles of vocal art, slow, broad singing, and a great deal more.
        The
        > preservation of Byzantine and post-Byzantine traditions was evident
        in
        > the performance of the parishioners of Munich's Greek Orthodox
        Church.
        > In the view of experts, the finest schools of church singing and
        choral
        > style were heard in the singing of the Resurrection Community of
        Dachau
        > and Munich of the Moscow Patriarchate (directed by Maksim
        Matjushenkov)
        > and the Munich Cathedral of ROCOR (Vladimir Tsjolkovich).
        >
        > "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of Orthodoxy
        concluded
        > by the late evening singing of an akathist to the Mother of God in
        > Greek, which was sung by everyone in attendance (approximately 300
        > persons) with notes and texts prepared in advance.
        >
        > Pravoslavie.ru
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > The fish are biting.
        > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Athanasios Jayne
        ... Orthodoxy concluded by the late evening singing of an akathist to the Mother of God in Greek, which was sung by everyone in attendance (approximately 300
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 1 10:45 AM
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          >> "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of
          Orthodoxy concluded by the late evening singing of an
          akathist to the Mother of God in Greek, which was sung
          by everyone in attendance (approximately 300 persons)
          with notes and texts prepared in advance. <<

          The Akathist to the Theotokos is a form of prayer.
          To sing this prayer together with Armenians and Copts,
          in an equal manner (that is, without the Orthodox
          *leading* the prayer), would be contrary to the holy
          Canons which absolutely forbid praying with heretics.

          It would be an act of open Ecumenism, on the "Triumph
          of Orthodoxy."

          Athanasios Jayne
          (ROCOR)
        • Reader Timothy Tadros
          Does this mean the Monophysites accept the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th Ecumenical Councils Now? I would agree we have a much better chance of an Orthodox Unity with
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 1 3:28 PM
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            Does this mean the Monophysites accept the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th
            Ecumenical Councils Now?
            I would agree we have a much better chance of an Orthodox Unity
            with them more than the Roman Catholic Church now than ever before.
            "As far as the East is from the West" this is exactly how much we
            differ with the RC's in theology, ecclesiology, and liturgics!
            Rdr Timothy Tadros
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
            <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Archbishop Averky would be overjoyed! He always hoped that Orthodox
            > would act kindly toward the Copts and other near Orthodox so that
            > they would gravitate toward unity with the Orthodox Church and not
            > the Roman Catholic or Protestants. Singing together is a start!
            > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > DIOCESE OF BERLIN AND GERMANY: February 28, 2007
            > > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia
            > Hosts
            > > the Traditional "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs"
            > >
            > > The feast day of the Triumph of Orthodoxy was celebrated in the
            > > Bavarian capital of Munich with an event called the "Meeting of
            > > Orthodox Choirs," which has now become a tradition.
            > >
            > > Orthodoxy is the third Christian confession in Germany according
            to
            > the
            > > number of adherents, after Protestants and Roman Catholics: by
            some
            > > estimates there are some one million Orthodox Christians in the
            > > country. Orthodoxy is represented in Munich by communities of the
            > > Moscow, Constantinople, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian
            and
            > > Antiochian Patriarchates as well as the Russian Orthodox Church
            > Outside
            > > of Russia. Believers belonging to the Ancient Eastern Churches
            > include
            > > representatives of the Armenian, Coptic and Ethiopian diasporas.
            > >
            > > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia
            and
            > St
            > > Nicholas (ROCOR) was this year's host for the "Meeting of
            Orthodox
            > > Choirs."
            > >
            > > The event opened with a brief welcome by His Eminence Archbishop
            > Mark
            > > of Berlin and Germany. Ten choirs, comprising over 120 singers,
            > > demonstrated the beauty of liturgical music, representing the
            > Greek,
            > > Georgian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian and Russian Orthodox
            > Churches.
            > > Participating also were singers from the Armenian Apostolic
            Church
            > and
            > > the Youth and Children's Choir of the Coptic Church. Among the
            > > participants were Orthodox Christians from various émigré
            > communities
            > > of different ages, students of the Theological Department of the
            > > University of Munich and of higher music schools as well as
            > > professional singers.
            > >
            > > Church singing is a form of "adorning the discourse," playing an
            > > important role in spiritual communion with God and His Saints.
            The
            > > "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" demonstrated various repertories and
            > > styles of vocal art, slow, broad singing, and a great deal more.
            > The
            > > preservation of Byzantine and post-Byzantine traditions was
            evident
            > in
            > > the performance of the parishioners of Munich's Greek Orthodox
            > Church.
            > > In the view of experts, the finest schools of church singing and
            > choral
            > > style were heard in the singing of the Resurrection Community of
            > Dachau
            > > and Munich of the Moscow Patriarchate (directed by Maksim
            > Matjushenkov)
            > > and the Munich Cathedral of ROCOR (Vladimir Tsjolkovich).
            > >
            > > "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of Orthodoxy
            > concluded
            > > by the late evening singing of an akathist to the Mother of God
            in
            > > Greek, which was sung by everyone in attendance (approximately
            300
            > > persons) with notes and texts prepared in advance.
            > >
            > > Pravoslavie.ru
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > The fish are biting.
            > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • DDD
            I could be wrong, but I understand praying with heretics to generally mean praying along with them at THEIR services. The Akathist to the Mother of God is
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 1 3:32 PM
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              I could be wrong, but I understand "praying with heretics" to generally mean "praying along with them at THEIR services." The Akathist to the Mother of God is a completely Orthodox service or prayer. It was written by Orthodox. That, in itself, as far as I am concerned, "leads" the prayer by the Orthodox. Anyone can come into our church, for example, during the Akathist and sing along--be he a Copt or an atheist, and that will not make it an "ecumenical" service: *they* are praying *our* prayers.

              Now, if they all were singing something heretical, that would be a different matter.

              --Dimitra Dwelley


              On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 18:45:40 -0000, Athanasios Jayne wrote:
              >> "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of
              Orthodoxy concluded by the late evening singing of an
              akathist to the Mother of God in Greek, which was sung
              by everyone in attendance (approximately 300 persons)
              with notes and texts prepared in advance. <<

              The Akathist to the Theotokos is a form of prayer.
              To sing this prayer together with Armenians and Copts,
              in an equal manner (that is, without the Orthodox
              *leading* the prayer), would be contrary to the holy
              Canons which absolutely forbid praying with heretics.

              It would be an act of open Ecumenism, on the "Triumph
              of Orthodoxy."

              Athanasios Jayne
              (ROCOR)


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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: Neither the Armenians nor the Copts have any Akathistos Hymns in their services. If everyone sang it together, then that means the Armenians and Copts
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 1 4:10 PM
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne" <athanasiosj@...> wrote:

                > The Akathist to the Theotokos is a form of prayer.
                > To sing this prayer together with Armenians and Copts,
                > in an equal manner (that is, without the Orthodox
                > *leading* the prayer), would be contrary to the holy
                > Canons which absolutely forbid praying with heretics.
                >
                > It would be an act of open Ecumenism, on the "Triumph
                > of Orthodoxy."

                JRS: Neither the Armenians nor the Copts have any Akathistos Hymns in their services.

                If everyone sang it together, then that means the Armenians and Copts were joining in and
                singing along with the Greeks and Russians, not vice-versa.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                The Yale Choir many years ago began to sing Rusian Orthodox music over the decades many singers converted to the Orthodox Faith.
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 1 4:12 PM
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                  The Yale Choir many years ago began to sing Rusian Orthodox music
                  over the decades many singers converted to the Orthodox Faith.



                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
                  <athanasiosj@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >> "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of
                  > Orthodoxy concluded by the late evening singing of an
                  > akathist to the Mother of God in Greek, which was sung
                  > by everyone in attendance (approximately 300 persons)
                  > with notes and texts prepared in advance. <<
                  >
                  > The Akathist to the Theotokos is a form of prayer.
                  > To sing this prayer together with Armenians and Copts,
                  > in an equal manner (that is, without the Orthodox
                  > *leading* the prayer), would be contrary to the holy
                  > Canons which absolutely forbid praying with heretics.
                  >
                  > It would be an act of open Ecumenism, on the "Triumph
                  > of Orthodoxy."
                  >
                  > Athanasios Jayne
                  > (ROCOR)
                  >
                • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  A program of singing on stage is not a Church Service---maybe a Copt or two would become Orthodox after this. In Berkeley the Music Department has a choir that
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 2 3:33 PM
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                    A program of singing on stage is not a Church Service---maybe a Copt
                    or two would become Orthodox after this.

                    In Berkeley the Music Department has a choir that sings Orthodox
                    music pieces, some of the singers are now attending the Cathedral in
                    San Francisco and the Orthodox Church in Berkeley.




                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Reader Timothy Tadros"
                    <pravoslavney@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Does this mean the Monophysites accept the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th
                    > Ecumenical Councils Now?
                    > I would agree we have a much better chance of an Orthodox Unity
                    > with them more than the Roman Catholic Church now than ever before.
                    > "As far as the East is from the West" this is exactly how much we
                    > differ with the RC's in theology, ecclesiology, and liturgics!
                    > Rdr Timothy Tadros
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                    > <StefanVPavlenko@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Archbishop Averky would be overjoyed! He always hoped that
                    Orthodox
                    > > would act kindly toward the Copts and other near Orthodox so that
                    > > they would gravitate toward unity with the Orthodox Church and
                    not
                    > > the Roman Catholic or Protestants. Singing together is a start!
                    > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > DIOCESE OF BERLIN AND GERMANY: February 28, 2007
                    > > > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia
                    > > Hosts
                    > > > the Traditional "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs"
                    > > >
                    > > > The feast day of the Triumph of Orthodoxy was celebrated in the
                    > > > Bavarian capital of Munich with an event called the "Meeting of
                    > > > Orthodox Choirs," which has now become a tradition.
                    > > >
                    > > > Orthodoxy is the third Christian confession in Germany
                    according
                    > to
                    > > the
                    > > > number of adherents, after Protestants and Roman Catholics: by
                    > some
                    > > > estimates there are some one million Orthodox Christians in the
                    > > > country. Orthodoxy is represented in Munich by communities of
                    the
                    > > > Moscow, Constantinople, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian
                    > and
                    > > > Antiochian Patriarchates as well as the Russian Orthodox Church
                    > > Outside
                    > > > of Russia. Believers belonging to the Ancient Eastern Churches
                    > > include
                    > > > representatives of the Armenian, Coptic and Ethiopian diasporas.
                    > > >
                    > > > The Cathedral of the Holy New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia
                    > and
                    > > St
                    > > > Nicholas (ROCOR) was this year's host for the "Meeting of
                    > Orthodox
                    > > > Choirs."
                    > > >
                    > > > The event opened with a brief welcome by His Eminence
                    Archbishop
                    > > Mark
                    > > > of Berlin and Germany. Ten choirs, comprising over 120 singers,
                    > > > demonstrated the beauty of liturgical music, representing the
                    > > Greek,
                    > > > Georgian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Romanian and Russian Orthodox
                    > > Churches.
                    > > > Participating also were singers from the Armenian Apostolic
                    > Church
                    > > and
                    > > > the Youth and Children's Choir of the Coptic Church. Among the
                    > > > participants were Orthodox Christians from various émigré
                    > > communities
                    > > > of different ages, students of the Theological Department of
                    the
                    > > > University of Munich and of higher music schools as well as
                    > > > professional singers.
                    > > >
                    > > > Church singing is a form of "adorning the discourse," playing
                    an
                    > > > important role in spiritual communion with God and His Saints.
                    > The
                    > > > "Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" demonstrated various repertories
                    and
                    > > > styles of vocal art, slow, broad singing, and a great deal
                    more.
                    > > The
                    > > > preservation of Byzantine and post-Byzantine traditions was
                    > evident
                    > > in
                    > > > the performance of the parishioners of Munich's Greek Orthodox
                    > > Church.
                    > > > In the view of experts, the finest schools of church singing
                    and
                    > > choral
                    > > > style were heard in the singing of the Resurrection Community
                    of
                    > > Dachau
                    > > > and Munich of the Moscow Patriarchate (directed by Maksim
                    > > Matjushenkov)
                    > > > and the Munich Cathedral of ROCOR (Vladimir Tsjolkovich).
                    > > >
                    > > > "The Meeting of Orthodox Choirs" on the Triumph of Orthodoxy
                    > > concluded
                    > > > by the late evening singing of an akathist to the Mother of God
                    > in
                    > > > Greek, which was sung by everyone in attendance (approximately
                    > 300
                    > > > persons) with notes and texts prepared in advance.
                    > > >
                    > > > Pravoslavie.ru
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > The fish are biting.
                    > > > Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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