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Re: Propriety -was- ROCOR and MP

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  • Michael Coleman
    Dear in Christ Katherine, May I humbly offer some advice as a brother in the Lord? I feel that you are being a bit too sensitive about being corrected on your
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear in Christ Katherine,

      May I humbly offer some advice as a brother in the Lord? I feel that you are being a bit too sensitive about being corrected on your spelling. As someone new to the Orthodox faith, you should know that Fr. John is a very humble man with a long experience on this email list, and that you owe him respect as a father in the Lord. It is not your place to warn a priest to "be careful whom [he is] answering in the future." As well, we laity ought not to bless priests, for again, as our fathers in the Lord, it is they who offer a blessing to us as laity by the grace of their ordination.

      You have offered quite a bit of correction on this public forum, and this is why I humbly offer some corrective advice to you publically.

      I am certainly the worst of all sinners, and I bow down before you,

      Michael
      ----------
      St Luke Orthodox Church
      Garden Grove, CA


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Carol <weaver32@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 10:49:48 AM
      Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow Orthodox Mother Church joining together,

      Dear Fr John,

      Am surprised that someone as yourself, would stoop so low as to correct ( publically) peoples spelling.
      First of all, I am the one who wrote 'anotherwards' , but am not the one who wrote about the Russian 'friend', so you were speaking to TWO seperate people at once, only correcting, MY spelling, not my words.

      In my writing, I said, that I was NEW to Orthodox faith and ASKED questions did not STATE anything about the 'friend' but that from my understanding in the future we could end up joining the ecumenical movement. The 'thoughts' were similiar, but the speakers entirely dfferent. This was my concern, and I made that clear. I wondered what others thought on this matter...

      Be careful whom are are answering in the future. The spelling is not half as important as the 'meaning' of the words spoken. AGAIN, I am not the same person who wrote BOTH , so YOU evidently are misinformed on the person to be corrected, unless you were trying to answer TWO postings, at once?.

      Besides this other person was just , I believe, making a point of something, they BELIEVED to be true from WORDS of someone else, not their own.

      You are forgiven, by me anyway, for your 'public' correction on such a personal account as spelling. When I joined this group I did not join to have people correct my spelling, I am not in class. You may e-mail me in 'private' to correct me, though. I can accept criticism, do not mind at all, but this kind of criticism is not called for on this PUBLIC site. Maybe the topic, is TOO HOT for you, but we cannot help that, we are only asking questions from people who we think may be more informed,. From now on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even the priest who is a teacher, at the seminary and my husbands, godfather. I will not bother to post here, to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone down' ( He will be coming soon, to bless our home.)

      May the Lord shine His blessings on you.

      In Christ,

      Katherine

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Fr. John R. Shaw
      To: orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:56 AM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow Orthodox Mother Church joining together,

      --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "johnswensen12" <johnswensen12@ ...>
      wrote:

      > I have a friend in the Russian Church Abroad who told me that the
      > Moscow Patriarchate was "in Communion with the Roman Catholic Church"
      > ... How should i respond to my friend who
      > thinks that our Church is making a tragic mistake in joining with the
      > MP for this and other reasons?

      JRS: What you quote your friend as saying, is simply misinformation.

      It may be that some priests admit non-Orthodox to communion (but with large
      congregations, non-Orthodox who know how to behave may simply not be spotted).

      That some Russian clergy, including even old-time ROCOR clergy, could tell their
      parishioners it was permissible to communicate in Roman Catholic or other churches, is a
      long-standing problem.

      There are far too many ROCOR laity who also believe that "God is the same for everybody",
      and therefore smile upon their children marrying non-Orthodox and raising their posterity
      outside the Church.

      But, when people say that, one can also remind them that "Satan is also the same for
      everybody!"

      > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "weaver322001" <weaver32@>
      > wrote:
      > > churches including the church of Rome, anotherwards ...

      JRS: If you look in the dictionary, you will find that there is no such word as
      "anotherwards" .

      It's a misspelling for "in other words".

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Carol
      Dear in Christ Micheal, I said I was sorry to Fr John. A Priest, it is TRUE, is to be shown repect by the uneducated in Christ. Of course, many
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear in Christ Micheal,

        I said I was sorry to Fr John. A Priest, it is TRUE, is to be shown repect by the uneducated in Christ. Of course, many became saints in the past and were thought to be ignorant to the world. They need respect as they set up communion and can give blessings etc, but yet, God looks inward to the hearts of man ( and women for that matter) Woman need to ask, and I did ask a question of those here who I thought were so much more learned then me, and so you TRULY are. But remember , we 'lay people' were of the ignorant class, and so what can you expect from us? Would not be expected to have wonderful grammer or such great way with words. we are not capable of understanding all that you do. We must ASK, in order to know, BUT in the future will just read the forum to learn and not voice, one thing, will go to my spritual father and godfather priest/Monk for help in the future as they do not ever seem to mind the love I have for them. They get much more respect then anyone could receive. but then again, they do not try to 'show' how educated they are. My spritual father is a candidatefor a doctorate, and even he, does not 'lord' it over me. I guess, I would not mind being corrected, if I was the one who wrote the whole letter you were ( well not you, but Fr. John) referring to, but I was innocent in the whole thing. I do not know Fr John it is true, as I am new here, and do know that I have respect for all clergy. But then again in my ignorance while a Protestant, I was a minister, myself.

        Anyway on my part I FORGIVE,, and ASK forgiveness, from EVERYBODY here for being so ignorant. Thank you for being quick to point out my faults. I will learn from them for the future. Now I will listen to all of you, and learn from you. Am glad to be among the learned as it is good for me, to become educated in the faith. Thank you so much for pointing this out to me, will be ever so careful in the future to be respectful, and will try to use spell check, If I should write in the future. I did not mean to upset anyone, nor show disrespect to anyone just asked a SIMPLE so I thought, question. Did learn alot though,from all this. I can learn much more by just being a quiet bystander, here. I was so happy to find an Orthodox site to share, did not expect that grammer was corrected, so misunderstood, sorry once more. I do not hold grudges, nor anger,so as far as I am concerned it is over and done. A lesson learned, forgivness is now yours to give or hold, back. God knows the heart and what should be done in this matter, of misunderstandings.


        In Christ,

        Katherine

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Michael Coleman
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:38 PM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Propriety -was- ROCOR and MP


        Dear in Christ Katherine,

        May I humbly offer some advice as a brother in the Lord? I feel that you are being a bit too sensitive about being corrected on your spelling. As someone new to the Orthodox faith, you should know that Fr. John is a very humble man with a long experience on this email list, and that you owe him respect as a father in the Lord. It is not your place to warn a priest to "be careful whom [he is] answering in the future." As well, we laity ought not to bless priests, for again, as our fathers in the Lord, it is they who offer a blessing to us as laity by the grace of their ordination.

        You have offered quite a bit of correction on this public forum, and this is why I humbly offer some corrective advice to you publically.

        I am certainly the worst of all sinners, and I bow down before you,

        Michael
        ----------
        St Luke Orthodox Church
        Garden Grove, CA

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Carol <weaver32@...>
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 10:49:48 AM
        Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow Orthodox Mother Church joining together,

        Dear Fr John,

        Am surprised that someone as yourself, would stoop so low as to correct ( publically) peoples spelling.
        First of all, I am the one who wrote 'anotherwards' , but am not the one who wrote about the Russian 'friend', so you were speaking to TWO seperate people at once, only correcting, MY spelling, not my words.

        In my writing, I said, that I was NEW to Orthodox faith and ASKED questions did not STATE anything about the 'friend' but that from my understanding in the future we could end up joining the ecumenical movement. The 'thoughts' were similiar, but the speakers entirely dfferent. This was my concern, and I made that clear. I wondered what others thought on this matter...

        Be careful whom are are answering in the future. The spelling is not half as important as the 'meaning' of the words spoken. AGAIN, I am not the same person who wrote BOTH , so YOU evidently are misinformed on the person to be corrected, unless you were trying to answer TWO postings, at once?.

        Besides this other person was just , I believe, making a point of something, they BELIEVED to be true from WORDS of someone else, not their own.

        You are forgiven, by me anyway, for your 'public' correction on such a personal account as spelling. When I joined this group I did not join to have people correct my spelling, I am not in class. You may e-mail me in 'private' to correct me, though. I can accept criticism, do not mind at all, but this kind of criticism is not called for on this PUBLIC site. Maybe the topic, is TOO HOT for you, but we cannot help that, we are only asking questions from people who we think may be more informed,. From now on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even the priest who is a teacher, at the seminary and my husbands, godfather. I will not bother to post here, to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone down' ( He will be coming soon, to bless our home.)

        May the Lord shine His blessings on you.

        In Christ,

        Katherine

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Fr. John R. Shaw
        To: orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com
        Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:56 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow Orthodox Mother Church joining together,

        --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "johnswensen12" <johnswensen12@ ...>
        wrote:

        > I have a friend in the Russian Church Abroad who told me that the
        > Moscow Patriarchate was "in Communion with the Roman Catholic Church"
        > ... How should i respond to my friend who
        > thinks that our Church is making a tragic mistake in joining with the
        > MP for this and other reasons?

        JRS: What you quote your friend as saying, is simply misinformation.

        It may be that some priests admit non-Orthodox to communion (but with large
        congregations, non-Orthodox who know how to behave may simply not be spotted).

        That some Russian clergy, including even old-time ROCOR clergy, could tell their
        parishioners it was permissible to communicate in Roman Catholic or other churches, is a
        long-standing problem.

        There are far too many ROCOR laity who also believe that "God is the same for everybody",
        and therefore smile upon their children marrying non-Orthodox and raising their posterity
        outside the Church.

        But, when people say that, one can also remind them that "Satan is also the same for
        everybody!"

        > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "weaver322001" <weaver32@>
        > wrote:
        > > churches including the church of Rome, anotherwards ...

        JRS: If you look in the dictionary, you will find that there is no such word as
        "anotherwards" .

        It's a misspelling for "in other words".

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        __________________________________________________________
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Coleman
        Dear Katherine, I sent my response prior to your response, but it displayed after yours did. I think I need to ask your forgiveness for my hasty reply.
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Katherine,

          I sent my response prior to your response, but it
          displayed after yours did.

          I think I need to ask your forgiveness for my hasty
          reply.

          Sincerely,

          Michael


          --- Carol <weaver32@...> wrote:

          > Dear in Christ Micheal,
          >
          > I said I was sorry to Fr John. A Priest, it
          > is TRUE, is to be shown repect by the uneducated
          > in Christ. Of course, many became saints in the
          > past and were thought to be ignorant to the world.
          > They need respect as they set up communion and can
          > give blessings etc, but yet, God looks inward to the
          > hearts of man ( and women for that matter) Woman
          > need to ask, and I did ask a question of those here
          > who I thought were so much more learned then me, and
          > so you TRULY are. But remember , we 'lay people'
          > were of the ignorant class, and so what can you
          > expect from us? Would not be expected to
          > have wonderful grammer or such great way with words.
          > we are not capable of understanding all that you do.
          > We must ASK, in order to know, BUT in the future
          > will just read the forum to learn and not voice, one
          > thing, will go to my spritual father and godfather
          > priest/Monk for help in the future as they do not
          > ever seem to mind the love I have for them. They get
          > much more respect then anyone could receive. but
          > then again, they do not try to 'show' how educated
          > they are. My spritual father is a candidatefor a
          > doctorate, and even he, does not 'lord' it over me.
          > I guess, I would not mind being corrected, if I was
          > the one who wrote the whole letter you were ( well
          > not you, but Fr. John) referring to, but I was
          > innocent in the whole thing. I do not know Fr John
          > it is true, as I am new here, and do know that I
          > have respect for all clergy. But then again in my
          > ignorance while a Protestant, I was a minister,
          > myself.
          >
          > Anyway on my part I FORGIVE,, and ASK forgiveness,
          > from EVERYBODY here for being so ignorant. Thank you
          > for being quick to point out my faults. I will learn
          > from them for the future. Now I will listen to all
          > of you, and learn from you. Am glad to be among the
          > learned as it is good for me, to become educated in
          > the faith. Thank you so much for pointing this out
          > to me, will be ever so careful in the future to be
          > respectful, and will try to use spell check, If I
          > should write in the future. I did not mean to upset
          > anyone, nor show disrespect to anyone just asked a
          > SIMPLE so I thought, question. Did learn alot
          > though,from all this. I can learn much more by just
          > being a quiet bystander, here. I was so happy to
          > find an Orthodox site to share, did not
          > expect that grammer was corrected, so misunderstood,
          > sorry once more. I do not hold grudges, nor anger,so
          > as far as I am concerned it is over and done. A
          > lesson learned, forgivness is now yours to give or
          > hold, back. God knows the heart and what should be
          > done in this matter, of misunderstandings.
          >
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Katherine
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Michael Coleman
          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:38 PM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Propriety -was-
          > ROCOR and MP
          >
          >
          > Dear in Christ Katherine,
          >
          > May I humbly offer some advice as a brother in the
          > Lord? I feel that you are being a bit too sensitive
          > about being corrected on your spelling. As someone
          > new to the Orthodox faith, you should know that Fr.
          > John is a very humble man with a long experience on
          > this email list, and that you owe him respect as a
          > father in the Lord. It is not your place to warn a
          > priest to "be careful whom [he is] answering in the
          > future." As well, we laity ought not to bless
          > priests, for again, as our fathers in the Lord, it
          > is they who offer a blessing to us as laity by the
          > grace of their ordination.
          >
          > You have offered quite a bit of correction on this
          > public forum, and this is why I humbly offer some
          > corrective advice to you publically.
          >
          > I am certainly the worst of all sinners, and I bow
          > down before you,
          >
          > Michael
          > ----------
          > St Luke Orthodox Church
          > Garden Grove, CA
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Carol <weaver32@...>
          > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 10:49:48 AM
          > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow
          > Orthodox Mother Church joining together,
          >
          > Dear Fr John,
          >
          > Am surprised that someone as yourself, would stoop
          > so low as to correct ( publically) peoples spelling.
          >
          > First of all, I am the one who wrote
          > 'anotherwards' , but am not the one who wrote about
          > the Russian 'friend', so you were speaking to TWO
          > seperate people at once, only correcting, MY
          > spelling, not my words.
          >
          > In my writing, I said, that I was NEW to Orthodox
          > faith and ASKED questions did not STATE anything
          > about the 'friend' but that from my understanding in
          > the future we could end up joining the ecumenical
          > movement. The 'thoughts' were similiar, but the
          > speakers entirely dfferent. This was my concern, and
          > I made that clear. I wondered what others thought on
          > this matter...
          >
          > Be careful whom are are answering in the future.
          > The spelling is not half as important as the
          > 'meaning' of the words spoken. AGAIN, I am not the
          > same person who wrote BOTH , so YOU evidently are
          > misinformed on the person to be corrected, unless
          > you were trying to answer TWO postings, at once?.
          >
          > Besides this other person was just , I believe,
          > making a point of something, they BELIEVED to be
          > true from WORDS of someone else, not their own.
          >
          > You are forgiven, by me anyway, for your 'public'
          > correction on such a personal account as spelling.
          > When I joined this group I did not join to have
          > people correct my spelling, I am not in class. You
          > may e-mail me in 'private' to correct me, though. I
          > can accept criticism, do not mind at all, but this
          > kind of criticism is not called for on this PUBLIC
          > site. Maybe the topic, is TOO HOT for you, but we
          > cannot help that, we are only asking questions from
          > people who we think may be more informed,. From now
          > on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the
          > monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even
          > the priest who is a teacher, at the seminary and my
          > husbands, godfather. I will not bother to post here,
          > to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone
          > down' ( He will be coming soon, to bless our home.)
          >
          > May the Lord shine His blessings on you.
          >
          > In Christ,
          >
          > Katherine
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Fr. John R. Shaw
          > To: orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:56 AM
          > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow
          > Orthodox Mother Church joining together,
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com,
          > "johnswensen12" <johnswensen12@ ...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > I have a friend in the Russian Church Abroad who
          > told me that the
          > > Moscow Patriarchate was "in Communion with the
          > Roman Catholic Church"
          > > ... How should i respond to my friend who
          > > thinks that our Church is making a tragic
          > mistake in joining with the
          > > MP for this and other reasons?
          >
          > JRS: What you quote your friend as saying, is
          > simply misinformation.
          >
          > It may be that some priests admit non-Orthodox to
          > communion (but with large
          > congregations, non-Orthodox who know how to behave
          > may simply not be spotted).
          >
          > That some Russian clergy, including even old-time
          > ROCOR clergy, could tell their
          > parishioners it was permissible to communicate in
          > Roman Catholic or other churches, is a
          > long-standing problem.
          >
          > There are far too many ROCOR laity who also
          > believe that "God is the same for everybody",
          > and therefore smile upon their children marrying
          > non-Orthodox and raising their posterity
          > outside the Church.
          >
          > But, when people say that, one can also remind
          > them that "Satan is also the same for
          > everybody!"
          >
          >
          === message truncated ===




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        • Carol
          Dear in Christ, Michael, Certainly, you are more than forgiven. I spoke hastily, also. In Christ s love, Katherine ... From: Michael Coleman To:
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 3, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear in Christ, Michael,

            Certainly, you are more than forgiven. I spoke hastily, also.

            In Christ's love,

            Katherine
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Michael Coleman
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 11:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Propriety -was- ROCOR and MP


            Dear Katherine,

            I sent my response prior to your response, but it
            displayed after yours did.

            I think I need to ask your forgiveness for my hasty
            reply.

            Sincerely,

            Michael

            --- Carol <weaver32@...> wrote:

            > Dear in Christ Micheal,
            >
            > I said I was sorry to Fr John. A Priest, it
            > is TRUE, is to be shown repect by the uneducated
            > in Christ. Of course, many became saints in the
            > past and were thought to be ignorant to the world.
            > They need respect as they set up communion and can
            > give blessings etc, but yet, God looks inward to the
            > hearts of man ( and women for that matter) Woman
            > need to ask, and I did ask a question of those here
            > who I thought were so much more learned then me, and
            > so you TRULY are. But remember , we 'lay people'
            > were of the ignorant class, and so what can you
            > expect from us? Would not be expected to
            > have wonderful grammer or such great way with words.
            > we are not capable of understanding all that you do.
            > We must ASK, in order to know, BUT in the future
            > will just read the forum to learn and not voice, one
            > thing, will go to my spritual father and godfather
            > priest/Monk for help in the future as they do not
            > ever seem to mind the love I have for them. They get
            > much more respect then anyone could receive. but
            > then again, they do not try to 'show' how educated
            > they are. My spritual father is a candidatefor a
            > doctorate, and even he, does not 'lord' it over me.
            > I guess, I would not mind being corrected, if I was
            > the one who wrote the whole letter you were ( well
            > not you, but Fr. John) referring to, but I was
            > innocent in the whole thing. I do not know Fr John
            > it is true, as I am new here, and do know that I
            > have respect for all clergy. But then again in my
            > ignorance while a Protestant, I was a minister,
            > myself.
            >
            > Anyway on my part I FORGIVE,, and ASK forgiveness,
            > from EVERYBODY here for being so ignorant. Thank you
            > for being quick to point out my faults. I will learn
            > from them for the future. Now I will listen to all
            > of you, and learn from you. Am glad to be among the
            > learned as it is good for me, to become educated in
            > the faith. Thank you so much for pointing this out
            > to me, will be ever so careful in the future to be
            > respectful, and will try to use spell check, If I
            > should write in the future. I did not mean to upset
            > anyone, nor show disrespect to anyone just asked a
            > SIMPLE so I thought, question. Did learn alot
            > though,from all this. I can learn much more by just
            > being a quiet bystander, here. I was so happy to
            > find an Orthodox site to share, did not
            > expect that grammer was corrected, so misunderstood,
            > sorry once more. I do not hold grudges, nor anger,so
            > as far as I am concerned it is over and done. A
            > lesson learned, forgivness is now yours to give or
            > hold, back. God knows the heart and what should be
            > done in this matter, of misunderstandings.
            >
            >
            > In Christ,
            >
            > Katherine
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Michael Coleman
            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:38 PM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Propriety -was-
            > ROCOR and MP
            >
            >
            > Dear in Christ Katherine,
            >
            > May I humbly offer some advice as a brother in the
            > Lord? I feel that you are being a bit too sensitive
            > about being corrected on your spelling. As someone
            > new to the Orthodox faith, you should know that Fr.
            > John is a very humble man with a long experience on
            > this email list, and that you owe him respect as a
            > father in the Lord. It is not your place to warn a
            > priest to "be careful whom [he is] answering in the
            > future." As well, we laity ought not to bless
            > priests, for again, as our fathers in the Lord, it
            > is they who offer a blessing to us as laity by the
            > grace of their ordination.
            >
            > You have offered quite a bit of correction on this
            > public forum, and this is why I humbly offer some
            > corrective advice to you publically.
            >
            > I am certainly the worst of all sinners, and I bow
            > down before you,
            >
            > Michael
            > ----------
            > St Luke Orthodox Church
            > Garden Grove, CA
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Carol <weaver32@...>
            > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 10:49:48 AM
            > Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow
            > Orthodox Mother Church joining together,
            >
            > Dear Fr John,
            >
            > Am surprised that someone as yourself, would stoop
            > so low as to correct ( publically) peoples spelling.
            >
            > First of all, I am the one who wrote
            > 'anotherwards' , but am not the one who wrote about
            > the Russian 'friend', so you were speaking to TWO
            > seperate people at once, only correcting, MY
            > spelling, not my words.
            >
            > In my writing, I said, that I was NEW to Orthodox
            > faith and ASKED questions did not STATE anything
            > about the 'friend' but that from my understanding in
            > the future we could end up joining the ecumenical
            > movement. The 'thoughts' were similiar, but the
            > speakers entirely dfferent. This was my concern, and
            > I made that clear. I wondered what others thought on
            > this matter...
            >
            > Be careful whom are are answering in the future.
            > The spelling is not half as important as the
            > 'meaning' of the words spoken. AGAIN, I am not the
            > same person who wrote BOTH , so YOU evidently are
            > misinformed on the person to be corrected, unless
            > you were trying to answer TWO postings, at once?.
            >
            > Besides this other person was just , I believe,
            > making a point of something, they BELIEVED to be
            > true from WORDS of someone else, not their own.
            >
            > You are forgiven, by me anyway, for your 'public'
            > correction on such a personal account as spelling.
            > When I joined this group I did not join to have
            > people correct my spelling, I am not in class. You
            > may e-mail me in 'private' to correct me, though. I
            > can accept criticism, do not mind at all, but this
            > kind of criticism is not called for on this PUBLIC
            > site. Maybe the topic, is TOO HOT for you, but we
            > cannot help that, we are only asking questions from
            > people who we think may be more informed,. From now
            > on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the
            > monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even
            > the priest who is a teacher, at the seminary and my
            > husbands, godfather. I will not bother to post here,
            > to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone
            > down' ( He will be coming soon, to bless our home.)
            >
            > May the Lord shine His blessings on you.
            >
            > In Christ,
            >
            > Katherine
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Fr. John R. Shaw
            > To: orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:56 AM
            > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and Moscow
            > Orthodox Mother Church joining together,
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com,
            > "johnswensen12" <johnswensen12@ ...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > I have a friend in the Russian Church Abroad who
            > told me that the
            > > Moscow Patriarchate was "in Communion with the
            > Roman Catholic Church"
            > > ... How should i respond to my friend who
            > > thinks that our Church is making a tragic
            > mistake in joining with the
            > > MP for this and other reasons?
            >
            > JRS: What you quote your friend as saying, is
            > simply misinformation.
            >
            > It may be that some priests admit non-Orthodox to
            > communion (but with large
            > congregations, non-Orthodox who know how to behave
            > may simply not be spotted).
            >
            > That some Russian clergy, including even old-time
            > ROCOR clergy, could tell their
            > parishioners it was permissible to communicate in
            > Roman Catholic or other churches, is a
            > long-standing problem.
            >
            > There are far too many ROCOR laity who also
            > believe that "God is the same for everybody",
            > and therefore smile upon their children marrying
            > non-Orthodox and raising their posterity
            > outside the Church.
            >
            > But, when people say that, one can also remind
            > them that "Satan is also the same for
            > everybody!"
            >
            >
            === message truncated ===

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          • polychrony
            ... [snip] ... But we can bless the Mother of God, and we can, and are even called upon, to bless the Lord at all times. Does this not imply, Michael, that
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 7, 2007
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
              <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
              >

              [snip]

              > As well, we laity ought not to bless priests, for again, as our
              >fathers in the Lord, it is they who offer a blessing to us as laity
              >by the grace of their ordination.
              >
              But we can bless the Mother of God, and we can, and are even called
              upon, to "bless the Lord at all times."

              Does this not imply, Michael, that the church leadership asks for
              itslef a kind of deferential treatement than even God does not
              indicate for Himself?

              And Katherine wrote,

              >From now on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the
              >monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even the priest who
              >is a teacher, at the seminary and my husbands, godfather. I will not
              >bother to post here, to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone
              >down'

              Which I suggests overlooks the benefits of communication with ones
              fellow Christians. Some might be glad to see others cower in a public
              forum and retreat from open questions. I suggest to you the opposite,
              we take all of this as an opportunity for spiritual maturation, and
              let us all grow together.

              Yours in Christ,

              Polychronios
            • Athanasios Jayne
              An Open Letter From Mt. Athos December, 2006 To the Holy Abbots and the Holy Representatives of the Sacred Twenty Monasteries in the Sacred Community of the
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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                An Open Letter From Mt. Athos

                December, 2006

                To the Holy Abbots and the Holy Representatives of the Sacred Twenty
                Monasteries in the Sacred Community of the Holy Mount Athos

                Holy Abbots and Holy Fathers,

                Bless!

                We desire at the present time to express our deepest concern and
                sadness for all that is taking place for years now, in our Holy
                Orthodoxy, the deconstruction of the teaching of the Holy Apostles and
                of the Holy Fathers and the antithesis to all the sacred canons
                enacted by the
                ecumenical and local synods. We wonder if some ecumenical synod has
                been assembled and abolished the canons which forbid the joint prayer
                with heretics, or if the Pope repented and renounced the heresies of
                the Filioque, of primacy, of infallibility, of unleavened bread, of
                the purifying fire [purgatory], of created grace, of the immaculate
                conception of the Most Holy Theotokos, and so many others, most of
                which he has been condemned and anathematized numerous times by
                Orthodox Synods and by the entirety of the Holy Fathers.

                Heaven was angered and the Holy Fathers exceedingly saddened by the
                spectacle and by hearing about all that took place at the Phanar
                (neighborhood in which the Ecumenical Patriarch resides in
                Istanbul-Ed. note) during the feast of the Holy Apostle Andrew on the
                30th of November of the current year.

                Unprecedented and unheard of things in the two thousand year history
                of the Church. "The scornful marginalization of the dogmas of the
                Fathers, the annihilation of the Apostolic traditions, the
                introduction of novelties into the churches by contemporary
                personalities," as St. Basil the Great says, regarding comparable
                events during his own time.

                Everything happened literally upside-down.

                Instead of the heretical Pope being cast down, as we see the heretics
                depicted in the Icons of the Holy Synods, and being ejected from the
                Divine Liturgy, as required by the liturgical command, "the doors, the
                doors, in wisdom let us attend," we placed him on a high throne, where
                he sat and along with others, he too, wore an omophorion, the Orthodox
                deacons censed him, the Patriarch exchanged the Liturgical Kiss with
                him at the "let us love one another," and he recited as though being
                the one in charge, the proestos, the "Our Father…," and the chorus of
                the sacred cantors chanted to him the "Many Years," and a specially
                composed hymn from an Athonite hymnographer – Lord, have mercy! – if,
                of course, the journalistic communications are true.

                And he was permitted to give the congregation his blessing, rather,
                his madness according to the sacred canons.

                We allowed the Church militant on earth to be divided from the Church
                triumphant of the Saints in heaven and to be united to churches and
                assemblies of evil heretics.

                We insulted all of the holy martyrs and confessors who struggled to
                the point of blood against the heresies, because we present their
                struggles, their martyrdoms and their confessions as unbeneficial and
                useless.

                Will not the blessed Holy Mountain Fathers who were martyred by
                [Ecumenical Patriarch John - Ed. note] Bekkos because they refused to
                receive him and to commemorate the Pope, be sorry, seeing us not only
                to reject their example with our silence, but to do the opposite?

                Why then did all of the previous martyrs undergo martyrdom and why did
                the confessors stand fast in their profession of the Faith?

                You know, Reverend Fathers, better than we do, of all the
                anti-Orthodox and blasphemous actions, statements, and decisions of
                the Ecumenical Patriarch and other heads of institutions, Abbots and
                Bishops who loudly and overtly advise – bareheadedly – the acceptance
                and teaching of the panheresy of Ecumenism.

                It is the greatest ecclesiological heresy of all ages.

                It rejects the uniqueness of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
                Church and, equates it to the heresies, by accepting their Mysteries
                as having and communicating, sanctifying and saving grace.

                Besides recognition of the baptism of Papists and Lutherans, we also
                have participation in the common chalice with Monophysites and in many
                instances with the Papists in the Cyclades [islands in Aegean Sea,
                Greece Ed. note] and in the Diaspora.

                We have now realized with greater sadness, that the spiritual
                leadership of the Holy Mountain of the last years has not confronted
                with fortitude and confessional courage, these manifest appearances of
                apostasy, as the
                Athonite Fathers of bygone times did.

                The Patriarch has gauged our responses and because they have been
                half-hearted, and many times non-existent, he proceeds without any
                obstacles into union with the Pope, who is unrepentant and remains in
                heresies.

                He gauged us and was exceedingly glad also at his last visit to the
                Holy Mountain to make it appear that he came to receive the consent
                and blessing of the Athonites for all the things that he had already
                planned to do with the Pope a few days later.

                We, the humble priestmonks and monks, in the form of confession
                disclose to you that we have been scandalized by the silence and
                inaction of our spiritual authorities on Mount Athos, and together
                with us, all the people of Greece and all Orthodox around the globe,
                as well as those who are sympathetic to monastics.

                They all are waiting to hear the voice of Mount Athos.

                From you, the wisest and most sage, we have learned that when the
                faith is endangered, we are all accountable if we are silent and
                shrink back, as St. Theodore the Studite says. Particularly, a monk
                must not allow the slightest innovation in matters of the faith,
                according to the same
                holy Father and great monastic leader and organizer of monastic life
                and the Elder of us all. He did not fear the threats and the
                persecutions of the iconoclastic, Emperors and Patriarchs, but even
                within the environs of Constantinople, within the enclosure of the
                Great Sacred Monastery of Studion, he organized a procession with a
                thousand torch bearing monks, who held the forbidden holy icons in
                their hands.

                Ten thousand monks in Palestine, under leadership of Saints Savvas the
                Sanctified and Theodosios the Cenobite, these great monastic leaders,
                assembled together long before in Jerusalem, and saved Orthodoxy from
                the heresy of Monothelitism.

                Who is going to save the Church today from the panheresy of Ecumenism
                and the deceit of Papism?

                The letters of protest, which the Sacred Community has sent from time
                to time to the Ecumenical Patriarch did not bring about any results.

                There is no more time for words. It is time for action.

                We, unlearned and wretched sinners, do not want to teach you, nor do
                we want to present ourselves as confessors.

                We just want to set at ease our Orthodox monastic conscience; We want
                to especially honor the holy martyrs and confessors, particularly
                those ones martyred by Bekkos.

                We want to honor and follow their conduct.

                To not shrink back and place the monasteries and our brotherhoods
                above the purity of the faith, above God, and the truth.

                We believe that after so many oral and written protests and pleas,
                after so many retractions [i.e., going back one's word], retreats, and
                compromises, the only thing which will gladden the Orthodox and shame
                the heretic, is a cessation of the commemoration of the Patriarch's name
                (as Esphigmenou Monastery has bravely done for decades now under its
                fearless Abbot Archimandrite Methodios and his ever-memorable
                predecessors the holy Abbots Athanasios and Euthymios - is currently
                being mercilessly persecuted by His All Holiness and the Greek
                Government and some in the Holy Community in Athos-Editor' s Note) in
                the services and not only that, but the cessation of commemoration of
                the names in all the services, of all the bishops agreeing with him
                wherever they may be around the World who remain silent.

                Gather together, holy Fathers, the monks of all the Monasteries, of
                the Sketes, of the Kellia, in a militant all monastic assembly, either
                within or outside the Holy Mountain and knock down the towers of
                heresy, of Papism, of Ecumenism.

                Take on the good fight of the Faith.

                We, if you remain inactive, will prefer doing things pleasing to God
                and not things pleasing to man.

                May God enlighten us all, and may the Most Holy Theotokos cover and
                bless Her Garden and protect the Orthodox Church from those warring
                against Her and from those heretics warring against the Saints, as
                well as from cowardly shepherds who leave the flock unprotected from
                attacks of the wolves.

                Finally, asking for your blessings, we conclude with respect,

                Hieromonk Ephraim, former abbot, Elder of the Skete of Apostle Andrew
                and the brotherhood with me, of the Holy Monastery of Vatopedi.

                Elder Hieromonk Eustratios, Great Laura Monastery.

                Elder Hieromonk Poimen, Holy Monastery of Zographou

                Elder Hieromonk Basileios, Holy Monastery of Zographou

                Elder Hieromonk Bessarion, Holy Monastery of Zographou

                Monk Nikodemos (Bilalis, Sacred Cell "of the Presentation" from Kapsala

                Monk Artemios, Great Laura Monastery

                Priestmonk Hilarion, Great Laura Monastery

                Paisios Monk, Great Laura Monastery

                Savvas Monk, Great Laura Monastery

                Sacred Deacon Chariton, Great Laura Monastery

                Chariton Monk, Karoulia, Great Laura Monastery

                Athanasios Monk, Karoulia, Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Vlasios Monk,Kserokalyvo Viglas, Great Laura Monastery

                Akakios Monk Sacred Place of Holy Trinity (Kyr Isaiah) Great Laura
                Monastery

                Elder Isaiah Monk, Kellion of the Birth of the Mother of God, Great
                Laura Monastery

                Cherubim Monk, Sacred place of the Archangels, Great Laura Monastery

                Hieromonk Damaskinos, Kellion of Holy Trinity at Karyes, Great Laura
                Monastery

                Elder Nektarios Monk, Kellion of Holy Trinity at Karyes, Great Laura
                Monastery

                Elder Theolyptos Monk and the fathers with him; Kellion of the Sacred
                Forerunner,St. Anne's Skete, Great Laura Monastery

                Hieromonk Gabriel, Sacred Kellion of St. George (Kartsounaion) Sacred
                Skete of St. Anne, Great Laura Monastery

                Hieromonk Chrysostomos Kartsonas, Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Kosmas Monk,Sacred Hut of St. Demetrios, Skete of Saint Anne,
                Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Panteleimon Monk, Sacred Kellion of St. Panteleimon, Sacred
                Skete of Holy Trinity, Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Sophronios Monk, Sacred Hut of Entrance of the Theotokos, Sacred
                Skete of Holy Trinity, Great Laura Monastery

                Parthenios Monk, Sacred Hut Entrance of Theotokos, Sacred Skete of
                Holy Trinity Great Laura Monastery

                Athanasios Monk at Vouleutiria, Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Hieromonk Serapheim, Kellion of All Saints, Skete of Saint Anne,
                Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Daniel Monk, Saint Anne's, Great Laura Monastery

                Elder Gerasimos Monk Sacred Hut of St. George, Katounakia, Great Laura
                Monastery

                Elder Hieromonk Benediktos, Kellion of Ss Konstantine and Eleni,
                Vatopedi Monastery

                Paisios Monk, Kellion of Archangels (Savvaion) Karyes, Hilandari Monastery

                Silouanos Monk Sacred Hut of St. Nicholas, Nea Skete, St. Paul Monastery

                Gabriel Monk Kellion of Koutloumousiou of Saint Christodoulos

                Dositheos Monk, Koutloumousiou Monastery Place

                Elder Nektarios Monk, Sacred Hut of Holy Trinity, Skete of
                Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Paisios Monk, Kellion of Saint Barbara, Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Elder Moses Monk, Kellion St. John Chrysostomos, Skete of St.
                Panteleimonos, Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Elder Hieromonk Abraaham, Sacred Hut of St Gerasimos Kefalinias, Skete
                of St. Panteleimonos, Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Elder Spyridon Monk, Kellion of St. Nicholas, Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Theodoulos Monk, formerly of Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Elder Hieromonk Chrysostom, Kellion of St. Spyridon of Kerkyra,
                Koutloumousiou Monastery

                Hilarion Monk, Sacred Place of Doheiariou Monastery ( Platon area)

                Elder Nikodemos Monk, Kellion of St. Nektarios Kapsala, Pantokratoros
                Monastery

                Hieromonk Gabriel, Kellion of Quick to Hear Mother of GOD,
                Pantokratoros Monastery

                Isaac Monk, Kellion of Birth of Mother of GOD, Kapsala, Pantokratoros
                Monastery

                Elder Athanasios Monk, Kellion of St . Athanasios, Pantokratoros Monastery

                Elder Meletios Monk, Birth of Theotokos, Kapsala, Pantokratoros Monastery

                Elder Gregory Monk Kellion of St. Nicholas, Kapsala, Pantokratoros
                Monastery

                Elder Onoufrios Monk, Kellion Dormition of Theotokos, Karyes

                Elder Nicholas Monk, Kellion of St. Demetrios, Karyes

                Hieromonk Gabriel, Kellion of Holy Archangels (Kombologas) Karyes

                These are the names, thus far, of Fathers and Monks as of this
                publishing, who up to now commemorated Ecumenical Patriarch
                Bartholomew. There are many others who are now asking to add their
                names to this list of Holy Mountain Orthodox confessors .

                Originally published in the Greek Periodical Saint Agathangelos.
              • Michael Coleman
                Polychronios, and Fathers bless! I would ask of those more senior in the Faith, especially our priests on the List (Fr. Alexander, Fr. John, et al) to correct
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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                  Polychronios, and Fathers bless!

                  I would ask of those more senior in the Faith, especially our priests on the List (Fr. Alexander, Fr. John, et al) to correct what I say if I am wrong:

                  You are correct as to the wording that we are to bless the Mother of God and the Lord as well as for priests and bishops to bless us, but are these not different uses of the term to bless? For even in English, this term is used to connote praising and glorifying as well as to invoke divine care for (or to hallow or consecrate by religious rite) respectively. I would dare say that we should all bless (praise and glorify) the Theotokos and the Lord Himself as is their due but would never deign to bless Them in order to hallow or consecrate them. For they stand in such a high spiritual place relative to you and me, I believe it would be presumptuous for us to bless Them; they ought to bless us, for they have all blessing. And we are in need of it.

                  So, because the term to bless is used with different meanings, I would continue to say that we laity ought not to bless priests, for we do not give the grace of blessing to them (other than metaphorically), but they to us.

                  Sincerely,

                  Michael
                  St Luke Antiochian
                  Garden Grove, CA


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: polychrony <Polychrony@...>
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2007 11:20:31 PM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Propriety -was- ROCOR and MP

                  --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Michael Coleman
                  <usmichaelnew@ ...> wrote:
                  >

                  [snip]

                  > As well, we laity ought not to bless priests, for again, as our
                  >fathers in the Lord, it is they who offer a blessing to us as laity
                  >by the grace of their ordination.
                  >
                  But we can bless the Mother of God, and we can, and are even called
                  upon, to "bless the Lord at all times."

                  Does this not imply, Michael, that the church leadership asks for
                  itslef a kind of deferential treatement than even God does not
                  indicate for Himself?

                  And Katherine wrote,

                  >From now on I will ask my spiritual father the Dean of the
                  >monastery/seminary in which I attend church. Or even the priest who
                  >is a teacher, at the seminary and my husbands, godfather. I will not
                  >bother to post here, to have spelling corrected, as to 'bring someone
                  >down'

                  Which I suggests overlooks the benefits of communication with ones
                  fellow Christians. Some might be glad to see others cower in a public
                  forum and retreat from open questions. I suggest to you the opposite,
                  we take all of this as an opportunity for spiritual maturation, and
                  let us all grow together.

                  Yours in Christ,

                  Polychronios






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                • antiquariu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:48:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, athanasiosj@juno.com writes: An Open Letter From Mt. Athos December, 2006 To the Holy Abbots
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
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                    In a message dated 2/8/2007 10:48:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    athanasiosj@... writes:

                    An Open Letter From Mt. Athos

                    December, 2006

                    To the Holy Abbots and the Holy Representatives of the Sacred Twenty
                    Monasteries in the Sacred Community of the Holy Mount Athos

                    Holy Abbots and Holy Fathers,

                    Bless!

                    We desire at the present time to express our deepest concern and
                    sadness for all that is taking place for years now, in our Holy
                    Orthodoxy, the deconstruction of the teaching of the Holy Apostles and
                    of the Holy Fathers and the antithesis to all the sacred canons
                    enacted by the
                    ecumenical and local synods. We wonder if some ecumenical synod has
                    been assembled and abolished the canons which forbid the joint prayer
                    with heretics, or if the Pope repented and renounced the heresies of
                    the Filioque, of primacy, of infallibility, of unleavened bread, of
                    the purifying fire [purgatory], of created grace, of the immaculate
                    conception of the Most Holy Theotokos, and so many others, most of
                    which he has been condemned and anathematized numerous times by
                    Orthodox Synods and by the entirety of the Holy Fathers.






                    Great! and wonderful English too, which is not bad for a group that doesn't
                    speak much English. I find it really curious that not a single serving
                    abbot signed this petition, because that is what it is, and that the petition
                    ends with the same flourish of hyperbole I have come to associate with
                    Esphigmenou's major propagandists residing in NewYork. Either way, looks like for
                    these monks, it's open rebellion, whichn is also not the way of a monk.

                    Vova H.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • DDD
                     On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:20:31 -0000, Katherine? Michael? quoted by Polychrony wrote:  But we can bless the Mother of God, and we can, and are even called
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 8, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                       On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 07:20:31 -0000, Katherine? Michael? quoted by Polychrony wrote:

                       But we can bless the Mother of God, and we can, and are even called
                       upon, to "bless the Lord at all times."

                       Does this not imply, Michael, that the church leadership asks for
                       itslef a kind of deferential treatement than even God does not
                       indicate for Himself?
                      ______________________________________
                       
                      Not at all.  "Bless" or "blagoslovlyat'" has two different meanings:
                       
                      1) to give praise (This is how we "bless the Lord" or call the Mother of God "Blessed."
                       
                      2) To bestow a blessing or grace.  This is the prerogative only of God, shown through His clergy.   (Notice we are calling the Mother of God (already) "blessed" --by God.  We are not saying to Her, "I bless you.")
                       
                      Converts often think they are saying something nice if they call God's blessing on a priest, but don't realize how "rude" it sounds to Orthodox ears, where it's not our place to bless the priest, but his to bless us.  A matter of acquiring an "Orthodox mindset."
                       
                      And, further, it's not the "Church leadership" (an odd term) that asks for itself this prerogative, but the laity who give it to them, understanding that it belongs to clergy, not laity.  Likewise, a priest does not "ask for himself" the title of "Father," and signs his name (in formal documents, at least) "Priest so-and-so," but the *laity* *give* him the title of "father."   Though, I admit, St. Paul was much bolder, and said, "Ye have not many fathers in Christ, but *I* begot you!"

                      Well, I hope I am not also out of place to put this forth, and gladly accept correction from our clergy if it is not accurate.
                       
                      --Dimitra Dwelley
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