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Re: [orthodox-synod] Loyal followers

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  • michael nikitin
    S Prazdnikom, everyone! True followers of ROCOR are those who remember, 1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch Tikhon, 2. Anathema against MP by Catacomb
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 9, 2007
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      S Prazdnikom, everyone!

      True followers of ROCOR are those who remember,

      1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch Tikhon,

      2. Anathema against MP by Catacomb Church,

      3. Anathema by ROCOR to Ecumenism - WCC, the Organization which
      MP refuses to leave.

      Anathema means they are NO LONGER A CHURCH unless they repent of
      the heresy.

      Michael N


      --- DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > CHRIST IS BORN! GLORIFY HIM!
      >
      > On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:32:29 -0800 (PST), Basil Yakimov wrote:
      >  EPISTLE TO ALL TRUE FOLLOWERS OF ROCOR:
      >
      > DD: The true followers of ROCOR are those who
      >
      > 1) *follow* the original Charter of the ROCOR (which states
      > that it is a temporary entity and must reunite immediately with
      > the Church Inside Russia upon the fall of the atheist regime
      > and restoration of normal church life in Russia--both of which
      > have happened), and who
      > 2) *follow* the decisions of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor
      > (which resolved to reunite with the Church in Russia) and who
      > 3) *follow* our hierarchs, who have, with prayer for God's will
      > to be done, and taking into consideration and not forgetting
      > the concerns of the faithful--which are not separate from their
      > own concerns--resolved that the Church Outside of Russia
      > reunite with the Church Inside Russia.
      >
      > *Those* are the true followers of ROCOR.
      >
      > Those who ignore the temporary nature of our Charter, who try
      > to overturn the resolution of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor,
      > and who--far from *following* our hierarchs--fight against
      > them, even calling them "traitors," are not followers of ROCOR,
      > but fighters against Her.
      >
      > But beyond this, we do not follow "ROCOR" (in its temporary
      > charter), but rather, we follow the Church, which clearly
      > stated and states that ROCOR is temporary. To follow ROCOR
      > beyond the bounds of its temporary Charter is to be precisely
      > like many of the Jews in the time of the Saviour, who
      > considered themselves to be "loyal" to the Traditions of the
      > Fathers and who continued to "follow" the Law beyond the bounds
      > set for it, rather than following the Giver of the Law into the
      > New Testament. Think about this! It is precisely what allowed
      > Saul to persecute the Church!
      >
      >
      > DBY: " In anticipation of the establishment of Eucharistic
      >  Communion and the merging of the Russian Church Abroad into
      > the
      >  structure of the Moscow Patriarchate, which will occur on
      > Ascension
      >  in 2007, we all need to take a stand and define our position
      > on the
      >  future of ROCOR.
      >
      > DD: Was this "stand" not defined at the Fourth All-Diaspora
      > Sobor? All else is fighting against the Holy Spirit!
      >
      >
      > DBY: believes it is critical to remain
      >  with the traditional ROCOR and preserve its current state,
      > which
      >  existed under all our Hierarchs of blessed memory.
      >
      > DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally
      > that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when the
      > reasons that divide us no longer exist. And now, in our
      > lifetimes, the atheist regime has fallen, the persecutions have
      > ended, the Church in Russia is free and operates normally--the
      > reasons that divide us no longer exist.
      >
      > Furthermore, the ROCOR did NOT exist under all our Hierarchs of
      > blessed memory: there was no ROCOR when St. Patriarch Tikhon
      > was first elected; there was no ROCOR under Metropolitan
      > Macarius II or I; there was no ROCOR under the great
      > Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow.
      >
      > Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed
      > for the fall of the atheist regime and the return to Russia.
      > No more poignant reminder of this exists than the very moving
      > Translation of the Vestments of the Ever-Memorable Vladyka
      > Philaret of NY, who willed that his vestments and staff be
      > given to the Patriarch of Russia who would reign when the
      > Church there would be free again. Thank God we have lived to
      > see this day!
      >
      > --Dimitra Dwelley
      > 3rd Day of the Feast of the Nativity of Christ
      > Feast of M. Stephen
      >


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    • George
      Interesting that nothing in your description refers to Christ, nor adherence to the true church, nor of the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition. George Green
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 9, 2007
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        Interesting that nothing in your description refers to Christ, nor adherence to the true church, nor of the Holy Scriptures and Holy Tradition.

        George Green

        On Tuesday, January 09, 2007, at 02:04PM, "michael nikitin" <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
        >S Prazdnikom, everyone!
        >
        >True followers of ROCOR are those who remember,
        >
        >1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch Tikhon,
        >
        >2. Anathema against MP by Catacomb Church,
        >
        >3. Anathema by ROCOR to Ecumenism - WCC, the Organization which
        >MP refuses to leave.
        >
        >Anathema means they are NO LONGER A CHURCH unless they repent of
        >the heresy.
        >
        >Michael N
        >
        >
        >--- DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> CHRIST IS BORN! GLORIFY HIM!
        >>
        >> On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:32:29 -0800 (PST), Basil Yakimov wrote:
        >>  EPISTLE TO ALL TRUE FOLLOWERS OF ROCOR:
        >>
        >> DD: The true followers of ROCOR are those who
        >>
        >> 1) *follow* the original Charter of the ROCOR (which states
        >> that it is a temporary entity and must reunite immediately with
        >> the Church Inside Russia upon the fall of the atheist regime
        >> and restoration of normal church life in Russia--both of which
        >> have happened), and who
        >> 2) *follow* the decisions of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor
        >> (which resolved to reunite with the Church in Russia) and who
        >> 3) *follow* our hierarchs, who have, with prayer for God's will
        >> to be done, and taking into consideration and not forgetting
        >> the concerns of the faithful--which are not separate from their
        >> own concerns--resolved that the Church Outside of Russia
        >> reunite with the Church Inside Russia.
        >>
        >> *Those* are the true followers of ROCOR.
        >>
        >> Those who ignore the temporary nature of our Charter, who try
        >> to overturn the resolution of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor,
        >> and who--far from *following* our hierarchs--fight against
        >> them, even calling them "traitors," are not followers of ROCOR,
        >> but fighters against Her.
        >>
        >> But beyond this, we do not follow "ROCOR" (in its temporary
        >> charter), but rather, we follow the Church, which clearly
        >> stated and states that ROCOR is temporary. To follow ROCOR
        >> beyond the bounds of its temporary Charter is to be precisely
        >> like many of the Jews in the time of the Saviour, who
        >> considered themselves to be "loyal" to the Traditions of the
        >> Fathers and who continued to "follow" the Law beyond the bounds
        >> set for it, rather than following the Giver of the Law into the
        >> New Testament. Think about this! It is precisely what allowed
        >> Saul to persecute the Church!
        >>
        >>
        >> DBY: " In anticipation of the establishment of Eucharistic
        >>  Communion and the merging of the Russian Church Abroad into
        >> the
        >>  structure of the Moscow Patriarchate, which will occur on
        >> Ascension
        >>  in 2007, we all need to take a stand and define our position
        >> on the
        >>  future of ROCOR.
        >>
        >> DD: Was this "stand" not defined at the Fourth All-Diaspora
        >> Sobor? All else is fighting against the Holy Spirit!
        >>
        >>
        >> DBY: believes it is critical to remain
        >>  with the traditional ROCOR and preserve its current state,
        >> which
        >>  existed under all our Hierarchs of blessed memory.
        >>
        >> DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally
        >> that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when the
        >> reasons that divide us no longer exist. And now, in our
        >> lifetimes, the atheist regime has fallen, the persecutions have
        >> ended, the Church in Russia is free and operates normally--the
        >> reasons that divide us no longer exist.
        >>
        >> Furthermore, the ROCOR did NOT exist under all our Hierarchs of
        >> blessed memory: there was no ROCOR when St. Patriarch Tikhon
        >> was first elected; there was no ROCOR under Metropolitan
        >> Macarius II or I; there was no ROCOR under the great
        >> Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow.
        >>
        >> Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed
        >> for the fall of the atheist regime and the return to Russia.
        >> No more poignant reminder of this exists than the very moving
        >> Translation of the Vestments of the Ever-Memorable Vladyka
        >> Philaret of NY, who willed that his vestments and staff be
        >> given to the Patriarch of Russia who would reign when the
        >> Church there would be free again. Thank God we have lived to
        >> see this day!
        >>
        >> --Dimitra Dwelley
        >> 3rd Day of the Feast of the Nativity of Christ
        >> Feast of M. Stephen
        >>
        >
        >
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      • michael nikitin
        Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed ... As if Holy Metr. Philaret thought himself a Saint. Did Dimitra read this supposed will of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 9, 2007
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          Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed
          > for the fall of the atheist regime and the return to Russia.
          > No more poignant reminder of this exists than the very moving
          > Translation of the Vestments of the Ever-Memorable Vladyka
          > Philaret of NY, who willed that his vestments and staff be
          > given to the Patriarch of Russia who would reign when the
          > Church there would be free again. Thank God we have lived to
          > see this day!
          >
          > --Dimitra Dwelley
          > 3rd Day of the Feast of the Nativity of Christ
          > Feast of M. Stephen


          As if Holy Metr. Philaret thought himself a Saint.

          Did Dimitra read this supposed will of Holy Metr. Philaret?
          Please share with us this supposed will where he states he wills
          his vestments to the MP who he calls the pseudo-Church.
          http://metphilaret.homestead.com/philaret.html

          The MP is not the historic Russian Church. The Western diocese of
          ROCOR proclamed this in 2001.

          http://www.wadiocese.com/eng/Document/2001pastoralconf.html

          "The Moscow Patriarchate was unlawfully founded an entire seven
          years later in 1927 after the usurpation of the lawful Church
          Authority by Metropolitan Sergius, the Deputy to the
          Locum Tenens to the Patriarchal Throne. At that time he issued
          the infamous "Declaration" of the Church's complete loyalty to
          the godless Soviet State. The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of
          Russia has always refused to consider the new church structure
          created by Metropolitan Sergius to be lawful and canonical; it
          refuses this to this very day."

          The history and ecclesiology of ROCOR is being changed, because
          some for union will stop at nothing to justify themselves. Shame.


          Michael N


          --- DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > CHRIST IS BORN! GLORIFY HIM!
          >
          > On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:32:29 -0800 (PST), Basil Yakimov wrote:
          >  EPISTLE TO ALL TRUE FOLLOWERS OF ROCOR:
          >
          > DD: The true followers of ROCOR are those who
          >
          > 1) *follow* the original Charter of the ROCOR (which states
          > that it is a temporary entity and must reunite immediately with
          > the Church Inside Russia upon the fall of the atheist regime
          > and restoration of normal church life in Russia--both of which
          > have happened), and who
          > 2) *follow* the decisions of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor
          > (which resolved to reunite with the Church in Russia) and who
          > 3) *follow* our hierarchs, who have, with prayer for God's will
          > to be done, and taking into consideration and not forgetting
          > the concerns of the faithful--which are not separate from their
          > own concerns--resolved that the Church Outside of Russia
          > reunite with the Church Inside Russia.
          >
          > *Those* are the true followers of ROCOR.
          >
          > Those who ignore the temporary nature of our Charter, who try
          > to overturn the resolution of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor,
          > and who--far from *following* our hierarchs--fight against
          > them, even calling them "traitors," are not followers of ROCOR,
          > but fighters against Her.
          >
          > But beyond this, we do not follow "ROCOR" (in its temporary
          > charter), but rather, we follow the Church, which clearly
          > stated and states that ROCOR is temporary. To follow ROCOR
          > beyond the bounds of its temporary Charter is to be precisely
          > like many of the Jews in the time of the Saviour, who
          > considered themselves to be "loyal" to the Traditions of the
          > Fathers and who continued to "follow" the Law beyond the bounds
          > set for it, rather than following the Giver of the Law into the
          > New Testament. Think about this! It is precisely what allowed
          > Saul to persecute the Church!
          >
          >
          > DBY: " In anticipation of the establishment of Eucharistic
          >  Communion and the merging of the Russian Church Abroad into
          > the
          >  structure of the Moscow Patriarchate, which will occur on
          > Ascension
          >  in 2007, we all need to take a stand and define our position
          > on the
          >  future of ROCOR.
          >
          > DD: Was this "stand" not defined at the Fourth All-Diaspora
          > Sobor? All else is fighting against the Holy Spirit!
          >
          >
          > DBY: believes it is critical to remain
          >  with the traditional ROCOR and preserve its current state,
          > which
          >  existed under all our Hierarchs of blessed memory.
          >
          > DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally
          > that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when the
          > reasons that divide us no longer exist. And now, in our
          > lifetimes, the atheist regime has fallen, the persecutions have
          > ended, the Church in Russia is free and operates normally--the
          > reasons that divide us no longer exist.
          >
          > Furthermore, the ROCOR did NOT exist under all our Hierarchs of
          > blessed memory: there was no ROCOR when St. Patriarch Tikhon
          > was first elected; there was no ROCOR under Metropolitan
          > Macarius II or I; there was no ROCOR under the great
          > Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow.
          >
          > Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed
          > for the fall of the atheist regime and the return to Russia.
          > No more poignant reminder of this exists than the very moving
          > Translation of the Vestments of the Ever-Memorable Vladyka
          > Philaret of NY, who willed that his vestments and staff be
          > given to the Patriarch of Russia who would reign when the
          > Church there would be free again. Thank God we have lived to
          > see this day!
          >
          > --Dimitra Dwelley
          > 3rd Day of the Feast of the Nativity of Christ
          > Feast of M. Stephen
          >


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        • Athanasios Jayne
          ... Dear Michael, I am curious, where is the text of this Anathema, and what Bishop(s) issued it? Only Bishops can issue Anathemas. Further, Anathemas have
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 9, 2007
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
            <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
            >
            > 2. Anathema against MP by Catacomb Church,

            Dear Michael,

            I am curious, where is the text of this Anathema,
            and what Bishop(s) issued it? Only Bishops can
            issue Anathemas.

            Further, Anathemas have been issued were mistaken,
            such as the Anathema against the Old Believers proved
            to be, and was later lifted.
            Michael: would you say that all the Old Believers
            who died before the Anathema against them was
            lifted, died outside of the Church and without the
            hope of salvation?

            Lastly, as Fr. John R. Shaw has pointed out on
            numerous occasions, Anathemas are like laws.
            They can be "on the books," but are powerless in
            ecclesiastical and terrestrial terms until they
            are actually *applied* and *enforced* by legitimate
            and qualified Episcopal authority in the Church.
            An Anathema, of itself, cannot depose or excommunicate
            anyone. It has to be *applied,* and applied by the
            right *authority,* just as the Sword of State cannot
            execute the condemned until it is wielded by the
            Executioner.

            Athanasios.
          • DDD
            On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:17:30 -0800 (PST), michael nikitin wrote:  True followers of ROCOR are those who remember,  1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 9, 2007
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              On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:17:30 -0800 (PST), michael nikitin wrote:

              " True followers of ROCOR are those who remember,

               1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch Tikhon,"

              DD: Er--St. Patriarch Tikhon was IN the Moscow Patriarchate--in fact, he was the Patriarch of it!


               3. Anathema by ROCOR to Ecumenism - WCC, the Organization which MP
               refuses to leave.

              DD: ROCOR itself was in the Faith and Order WCC-predecessor. Furthermore, I don't think you care one bit whether the MP is in the WCC or not--you always want to find something to tear the MP down for, because you think you are justifying Brookline that way. For example, suppose the MP left the WCC. Would you come back to the ROC? Please let us know.

              --Dimitra Dwelley
            • michael nikitin
              About Bishops in Catacomb Church anathematizing MP is mentioned in the letters of Metr. Philaret and also in a book written by Prof. Andreev who taught in
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 10, 2007
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                About Bishops in Catacomb Church anathematizing MP is mentioned
                in the letters of Metr. Philaret and also in a book written by
                Prof. Andreev who taught in Holy Trinity Seminary. It is a fact!

                Anathema against Old Believes was recently annulled. I did not
                read enough on this subject and can not make any statements on
                the subject.

                Anathema is denouncing and condemning a heresy or wrong teaching
                about God and Church. Anathemas are decreed by the Church's
                Bishops against heresies - wrong teaching about God and the
                Church. On the Sunday of Orthodoxy these condemnations are
                proclaimed against different heresies or wrong teachings about
                God and Church. How are anathemas executed? If a Roman Catholic
                or another heretic approaches a chalice to commune, it is
                executed by denying them the Holy Gifts. If the priest does not
                deny them the Holy Gifts, the priest takes the sin on his soul
                and is answerable to God for this. That's the only way Anathema
                is *applied* and *enforced* by legitimate and qualified Episcopal
                authority in the Church. It is up to the conscientious priests
                and bishops to apply it if they believe in God.

                When Anathema is proclaimed to a certain heresy - wrong teaching,
                like Ecumenism, that's when the heresy is condemned. If you are
                in an organization, members of which are required to be atheist,
                you won't join such an organization if you believe in God.
                Anathema is executed by not letting people who are in churches
                which have wrong teachings about God and Church receive the Holy
                Gifts because the Holy Gifts will be for their condemnation. The
                bishops and priests cannot serve with those who hold to the wrong
                teaching if they believe what they decreed and if they believe in
                God and what their Church teaches.

                Michael N



                --- Athanasios Jayne <athanasiosj@...> wrote:

                > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                > <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > 2. Anathema against MP by Catacomb Church,
                >
                > Dear Michael,
                >
                > I am curious, where is the text of this Anathema,
                > and what Bishop(s) issued it? Only Bishops can
                > issue Anathemas.
                >
                > Further, Anathemas have been issued were mistaken,
                > such as the Anathema against the Old Believers proved
                > to be, and was later lifted.
                > Michael: would you say that all the Old Believers
                > who died before the Anathema against them was
                > lifted, died outside of the Church and without the
                > hope of salvation?
                >
                > Lastly, as Fr. John R. Shaw has pointed out on
                > numerous occasions, Anathemas are like laws.
                > They can be "on the books," but are powerless in
                > ecclesiastical and terrestrial terms until they
                > are actually *applied* and *enforced* by legitimate
                > and qualified Episcopal authority in the Church.
                > An Anathema, of itself, cannot depose or excommunicate
                > anyone. It has to be *applied,* and applied by the
                > right *authority,* just as the Sword of State cannot
                > execute the condemned until it is wielded by the
                > Executioner.
                >
                > Athanasios.
                >
                >




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              • michael nikitin
                ... MN: Excuse me, but Saint Patriarch Tikhon belonged to Russian Orthodox Church. This is what Fr.Alexander Lebedeff wrote in 1996: The Moscow Patriarchate
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                  > DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                  > On Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:17:30 -0800 (PST), michael nikitin
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > " True followers of ROCOR are those who remember,
                  >
                  > 1. Anathema against MP by Saint Patriarch Tikhon,"
                  >
                  > DD: Er--St. Patriarch Tikhon was IN the Moscow Patriarchate-
                  > -in fact, he was the Patriarch of it!

                  MN: Excuse me, but Saint Patriarch Tikhon belonged to Russian
                  Orthodox Church.
                  This is what Fr.Alexander Lebedeff wrote in 1996:
                  "The Moscow Patriarchate came into being only after 1927, when
                  Met. Sergius usurped the authority of the lawful Patriarchal
                  Locum Tenens, Metropolitan Peter, and called together a Synod of
                  Bishops hand-picked by the Soviet authorities, and immediately
                  began to follow the Soviet governments directives as to which
                  statments to make, which bishops to assign where, etc.
                  It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                  were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet
                  authorities, and that most of them acted as agents of the KGB
                  (the current Patriarch, as is now known from recently opened
                  secret archives was "Agent Drozdov").

                  Saint Patriarch Tikhon's Anathema was on all who worked with
                  Communists and Metr.Sergei worked with Communists and wrote the
                  1927 Declaration. The MP did not repent and never will.

                  ROCOR was NEVER a member of WCC.

                  I know what MP is all about by knowing my previous Metropolitants
                  and Bishops and what they wrote and from their sermons. My
                  parents and grandparents told us from their experience with MP.

                  MP stated they will NEVER leave WCC and so instead ROCOR, by
                  uniting with MP is falling under its own anathema.
                  The ROCOR came out firmly on the side of strictness of Orthodoxy.
                  It is staunchly Old Calendar, and very much opposed to both
                  ecumenism and modernism, which it considers to be antithetical to
                  Orthodoxy.

                  MP has to repent of Sergianism. M. Sergei sold himself and his
                  church's freedom to Communists, God fighters - Bogobortsy. MP did
                  not repent to this day and they never will. Re-read Fr. Nikita
                  Griegoriev's letter. He explained Sergianism so simply and very
                  intelligently. In fact MP and now ROCOR is joining them by
                  saying that M.Sergiy saved the church - the church which was
                  saved by Metr.Sergei bowed down to Satan. Fr. Nikita wrote:

                  "Consider the third temptation that Satan presented to Christ in
                  the desert. Satan took Christ atop a high mountain and showed Him
                  all the kingdoms of the earth in all their glory. And Satan said
                  to Christ, "all this I will give to you if you bow down before
                  me". What did Satan want from Christ? Only one thing: that Christ
                  recognize Satan's authority and submit to it. What did Satan
                  promise Christ in return? Permission to operate freely in the
                  world, subject only to Satan's approval, of course. What would
                  have occurred if Christ had agreed to Satan's proposal? There
                  would have been many glorious churches built but they would all
                  have been subject to Satan and would therefore be incapable of
                  providing salvation. That church would have been founded and
                  built not on the Spirit of Truth but on falsehood and belong to
                  the father of lies, Satan."

                  Would Dimitra return to ROCOR when New ROCOR unites to MP which
                  is in WCC and never repented of Sergianism and which is under
                  three Anathemas, not to mention the Synod resolution of 1971
                  which proclaims all the Patriarch's since Pimen uncanonical?

                  > 3. Anathema by ROCOR to Ecumenism - WCC, the Organization
                  > which MP refuses to leave.
                  >
                  > DD: ROCOR itself was in the Faith and Order WCC-predecessor.
                  > Furthermore, I don't think you care one bit whether the MP is
                  > in the WCC or not--you always want to find something to tear
                  > the MP down for, because you think you are justifying Brookline
                  > that way. For example, suppose the MP left the WCC. Would you
                  > come back to the ROC? Please let us know.
                  > --Dimitra Dwelley


                  MN: Following article is reprinted from "Orthodox Life" magazine
                  (12 / 25 June 1998) published by Holy Trintity Monastery
                  Jordanville N.Y., in the late 1950's.

                  THE CATACOMB CHURCH IN THE SOVIET UNION
                  The All-Russian Church Council in Moscow in 1917-1918 gave the
                  Russian Orthodox Church a firm canonical basis for the life of
                  the Christian Church in an antichristian state. Patriarch Tikhon
                  anathematized (1/19/1918) the Soviet Government while the
                  ideology-minded State whose aim was the reconstruction of the
                  whole life of Russia on an atheistic and materialistic basis
                  was still in statu nascendi (in a state of being born). This
                  anathema was confirmed by the All-Russian Church Council
                  (1/28/1918).While acknowledging in principle the impossibility
                  and undesirability of a separation of Church and State,
                  nevertheless Patriarch Tikhon and the Council, by their anathema,
                  separated the Russian Orthodox Church from the new godless
                  antichristian Soviet State. By anathematizing only this form of
                  civil government, the Patriarch and the Council established the
                  fact of the incompatibility of the power of the true Christian
                  Church with the power of the spirit of antichrist.
                  A similar act also asserting the incompatibility of the Church
                  and the State was the decree of January 23, 1918, "On Freedom of
                  Conscience," which was called by the All-Russian Church Council,
                  "The Decree on Freedom from Conscience." In the list of 1918
                  (No.18, p. 203). the same decree is entitled "On the Separation
                  of Church and State and of Church and Education."
                  This separation of the State from the Church was not a mere
                  setting of limits between the power of the State and that of the
                  Church but a camouflaged ban that the Soviet Government laid on
                  the Church, which by the very nature of her spirit was
                  anti-Soviet. A mutual ban, a mutual proscription of foreign,
                  hostile, incompatible principles - the principles of the
                  atheistic, materialistic, antichristian State with those of the
                  militant Orthodox Christian Church - all this is quite natural.
                  The Soviet State and the Orthodox Church were in point of fact
                  two utterly incompatible organizations. A struggle was inevitable
                  and the nature of the struggle was clear. The antichristian,
                  godless, materialistic ideology necessitated definite methods of
                  struggle: in the first place, falsehood, then deception,
                  propaganda, calumny, terrorization, violence, persecution,
                  inquisition; and finally, the entire liquidation not only of the
                  Church but even of all religion in the souls of men. In turn, the
                  Russian Orthodox Church dictated diametrically opposite methods
                  of combat: firstly, confession of faith and truth, exposure of
                  scandals and deception, courageous defence of the Faith,
                  self-denying, preaching, readiness to confess the Faith even to
                  martyrdom; in a word, the defence, even to death, of Christ and
                  of His Immaculate Bride, the Church. The essence and basis of the
                  Communist ideology showed itself at once in this struggle to be
                  fanatically religious. It is possible to believe in the existence
                  of God and satan, or not, but it is impossible to deny the
                  existence of ideas connected with these conceptions. Communist
                  ideology is definitely and cynically associated with the idea of
                  the denial of God and His Truth and is committed to hatred for
                  them and war with them; in other words, it is connected with the
                  idea of satan.
                  So from the very beginning of the clash of the Church with the
                  State in the Soviet Union, the Church stood for the service of
                  Christ and the State for the service of satan and antichrist. A
                  life-and-death struggle had begun. Every Orthodox Christian was
                  faced with a dilemma: to accept martyrdom or to compromise his
                  conscience. To choose martyrdom one had to be a saint because the
                  cruelty of the tortures to which the Soviet government subjected
                  her enemies surpassed all the tortures and violence previously
                  known in the history of mankind. By intensifying the tortures the
                  Soviet State simultaneously intensified her insistence on
                  spiritual enslavement.
                  In his remarkable pamphlet "The Church in the Soviet
                  Union"(Paris,1947). S. P. accurately and vividly describes the
                  intolerable plight of the Russian -people: "To put it briefly,
                  there was and still is an opinion, simple and unequivocal:
                  heroism and martyrdom or slavery and cooperation. The masses of
                  the Russian people understood that in the very beginning and
                  tried to escape by masquerading. Now the whole political
                  development of the revolution may be described as systematic
                  pressure on this masquerading, while on the other hand the
                  masqueraders are still inventing new ways of escaping notice and
                  of avoiding pressure; new means of camouflaging their lives, new
                  formulas of neutrality and semi-loyalty, new subterfuges, new
                  "woods", "ravines,"tundras" where they might save themselves. It
                  is understandable that even the practicing members of the
                  Orthodox Church could not evade that dilemma, that masquerading."
                  Just as every single individual believer had to solve this tragic
                  dilemma for himself alone, or at most for his family and friends,
                  so the Head of the Orthodox Church had to solve it for the whole
                  Church. There is plenty of documentary evidence to show that
                  often the lives of many people and sometimes the kind of tortures
                  inflicted on them depended on a single word of the Patriarch. In
                  order to alleviate the unbearable sufferings of the clergy and
                  laity persecuted by the godless authorities, Patriarch Tikhon
                  made a series of concessions and compromises. But the Soviet
                  government was not satisfied with these concessions and demanded
                  the full spiritual subjection of the Church to the State and
                  intensified the persecutions. At the' sight of these cruel
                  persecutions which were becoming more and more outrageous and
                  the moral and physical tests and tortures that were
                  systematically exterminating the clergy and the faithful, and
                  seeing how even "the elect" were falling and apostatizing,
                  Patriarch Tikhon devoted all the powers of his mind and heart to
                  the alleviation of the fate of his flock. He made such further
                  concessions to the godless government as were possible to the
                  religious conscience of an Orthodox Christian. But there was a
                  limit that he never exceeded; he did not surrender the spiritual
                  freedom of the Church to the servants of satan.
                  Patriarch Tikhon was the greatest martyr of that period. He was
                  indeed a martyr crucified in spirit. His heart was torn by the
                  moral sufferings and the fate of Russian Orthodoxy from whom the
                  Soviet government was demanding treason to Christ, and he was
                  heartbroken by the plight of his flock whose sufferings were
                  exceeding all bounds. The diabolical lie of the government first
                  of all consisted in the fact that religious persecutions were
                  called a political struggle, while confession of faith and truth
                  was dubbed political crime. It was in vain that the Patriarch
                  publicly declared that he prohibited the faithful from
                  participating in any kind of political activity; in vain that he
                  "repented" of his "political" crimes and declared that he was "no
                  (political) enemy" of the Soviet government. The Soviet
                  authorities regarded even every purely religious opposition of
                  the faithful as political opposition. Patriarch Tikhon had the
                  terrible conviction that the limit of the "political" demands of
                  the Soviet government went beyond the limits of fidelity to
                  Christ and the Church. The "masquerade" of strict adherence to
                  the canons which had helped in the struggle with the"Renewed
                  Schismatics" had been discovered by the Soviet authorities.
                  Seeing that the canons were like a wall on which all violence and
                  terror against the faithful was breaking, the Soviet authorities
                  decided to subordinate the Church spiritually on the condition
                  -of the strictest adherence to the canonical regulations. To that
                  end the Communists began tempting, terrorizing and torturing not
                  the renegades who are always ready to flout the holy canons but
                  those who were faithful to them. This task proved extremely
                  difficult. Those who were prepared to cooperate with the godless
                  government were breakers of the canons, whereas those who refused
                  to betray the canons refused also to betray the Spirit of Christ.
                  The Soviet government needed a new Judas among the strictly
                  canonical bishops. According to an intimate friend of Patriarch
                  Tikhon, Professor M.A. Jijilenko, who was head-physician at
                  Taganka Prison in Moscow, and who was later the first secret
                  bishop of a catacomb church-Bishop Maxim of Serpukhov- shortly
                  before his death, the Patriarch expressed the opinion that the
                  only way for' the Russian Orthodox Church to maintain her
                  fidelity to Christ in the future would be to escape into the
                  catacombs.
                  Therefore, Patriarch Tikhon gave his blessing to Professor
                  Jijilenko to become a secret monk. Later, if a supreme hierarch
                  of the Church were to betray Christ and cede the spiritual
                  freedom of the Church to the Soviet government, he was to become
                  a secret bishop. Patriarch Tikhon died on 25 th March 1925.
                  According to Bishop Maxim, he was poisoned. The "Will" that was
                  found after the death of the Patriarch was unquestionably
                  forged. It was a counterfeit produced by the Soviet government,
                  but it did not help. So, then, with the aid of E. A. Tuchkov,
                  that bloody executioner of the Russian Orthodox Church, a deeply
                  conceived and diabolically cunning Declaration was composed which
                  the Soviet authorities decided to issue in the name of the
                  supreme hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, this hierarch
                  being ostensibly quite canonical and authentic. This declaration
                  was supposed to convert the Russian Orthodox Church into a Soviet
                  church, canonically quite correct, but serving the satanic
                  antichristian plans of the Soviet State. Patriarch Tikhon, in his
                  time, had categorically refused to sign a similar declaration.
                  After the death of the Patriarch, Metropolitan Peter also refused
                  to sign a declaration of that kind. For that he was arrested in
                  December 1925, deported and tortured in exile: he died eleven
                  years later. After the arrest of Metropolitan Peter, Metropolitan
                  Sergius Starogorodsky succeeded him. Metropolitan Peter had not
                  only refused to act as the locum tenens of the Patriarch but
                  asked that in the event of his death being known he should be
                  remembered in the church services as the Head of the Russian
                  Orthodox Church - as a symbol of unity and fidelity to that
                  Church. The martyr bishop Damascene was witness to that.
                  According to his own words, he actually had in his hands this
                  last order of the locum tenens. Metropolitan Cyril, the senior
                  hierarch and the first candidate actually designated to the
                  position of locum tenens by Patriarch Tikhon, also refused to
                  sign the "Tuchkov Declaration." Father Elias Pirozhenko and
                  Father P. Novosiltsev, who visited him in his exile, wrote: "He
                  told us how all that had been carried out by Metropolitan Sergius
                  Starogorodsky had been offered to him and that he was glad to
                  have remained on the straight way." Metropolitan Cyril died in
                  exile in 1936, the year of Metropolitan Peter's death.
                  Similar offers to sign a declaration had been made to
                  Metropolitan Agafangel, Metropolitan Joseph and Archbishop
                  Seraphim of Uglitch, that is, to all the most outstanding
                  hierarchs from the spiritual point of view and the greatest
                  sticklers for canonical integrity. At last a Judas was found
                  among the bishops who was canonically correct. True, in the
                  gravest moment in the history of the Russian Church, when the
                  "Renewers" began to triumph, he went over to them; but afterwards
                  he did penance in a canonically correct manner. This was
                  Metropolitan Sergius. He delivered the Russian
                  Orthodox Church into the hands of the enemies of Christ, but he
                  gave his treachery a strictly canonical form. He signed the
                  Tuchkov Declaration and polished its formulation. The
                  Declaration was issued in the name of the representative of the
                  Locum Tenens of the Patriarchal See, July 16/29, 1927.
                  It was in vain that the faithful bishops, clergy and laity
                  implored Metropolitan Sergius to desist from playing the part of
                  Judas but to take example from the Apostle Peter who wept
                  bitterly over his sin, and to repent of his betrayal of Christ.
                  But the admonitions did not help and the ecclesiastical schism
                  of 1927 took place. The Soviet authorities tried to arrest the
                  confessors of truth in the Church. During the trials the jubilant
                  examining judges' of the Cheka proved the "strict canonicity" of
                  Metropolitan Sergius and his Declaration "which compromised
                  neither the canons nor the dogmas." The resistance of the
                  confessors, the "Tikhonite's" and the "Old-Churchmen" (who came
                  to be called "Josephites") was broken physically by the Soviet
                  government with the aid of the Soviet church. The mass
                  executions, persecutions and tortures which shattered the Church
                  which remained faithful to Christ baffle description.
                  According to the official figures of the Office of Scientific
                  Research of Criminology in the Soviet Concentration Camps in 1929
                  the number of those sentenced for Church affairs amounted to 20%
                  of all the prisoners in the camps. The true Russian Orthodox
                  Church, faithful to Christ to the last, had no alternative but to
                  withdraw into the catacombs. The idea of the Underground Church
                  was conceived by Patriarch Tikhon. He may be called the spiritual
                  father of the Catacomb Church. In the first years of her
                  existence the Catacomb Church had no organization or
                  administration. It was physically and geographically
                  disconnected, and was held together only by the name of
                  Metropolitan Peter. Later, having had no contact with
                  Metropolitan Peter for a long time, Metropolitan Cyril was
                  acknowledged by the Catacomb Church as her spiritual leader and
                  head.
                  In 1936, after the death of Metropolitan Peter and Metropolitan
                  Cyril, Metropolitan Joseph became the spiritual and
                  administrative head of the Catacomb Church which by that time had
                  acquired some kind of organization. Toward the end of 1938
                  Metropolitan Joseph was executed for being the head and leader of
                  the Secret Catacomb Church. After his death the Catacomb Church
                  kept her secrets more strictly, especially the names and
                  whereabouts of her spiritual leaders. Information about the
                  Catacomb Church was not easily come by. And as the enemies of the
                  Underground Church, the soviet and pro-soviet churchmen, require
                  but cannot obtain precise information as to the names, addresses
                  and activities of the members of the Catacomb Church, they deny
                  its existence and call it a myth. If there exists a "Christ Myth"
                  -by Professor A. Drews, why should there not be a "Myth of the
                  Catacomb Church?"
                  I had the good fortune and joy of being a member of the Catacomb
                  Church from 1927 till 1944. While I was a convict in the
                  Solovetsky Concentration Camp (1928-32), 1 attended many secret
                  consecrations performed by Bishops Maxim, Victor, Hilarion (the
                  Suffragan Bishop of Smolensk), and Nectarius.
                  similar secret consecrations of bishops took place also in other
                  Concentration Camps such as Svirlag, Belbaltlag, and camps in
                  Siberia.
                  From 1945 till 1949 news- of the Catacomb Church behind the Iron
                  Curtain was scarce and hard to secure, but it trickled through
                  every year, including 1949. This information was, of course,
                  smuggled out in extremely cryptic code. "I will not tell the
                  secret to Thy enemies" - under this. motto on both sides of the
                  Iron Curtain I received news of the Catacomb Church. I have
                  had occasion to speak with refugees from "there" and of receiving
                  letters from all parts of the world from former members of the
                  Catacomb Church now scattered in exile. They were often complete
                  strangers to me. They wrote me on account of my articles, mostly
                  in the periodical "Orthodox Russia." Most of the letters were
                  anonymous.According to information in my possession received from
                  an unquestionably reliable source, the Underground or Catacomb
                  Church in Soviet Russia underwent her hardest trials after
                  February 4 th 1945, i. e. after the enthronement of the Soviet
                  Patriarch Alexis. Those who did not recognize him were sentenced
                  to new terms of punishment and were sometimes shot. Those who,did
                  recognize him and gave their signature to that effect were often
                  liberated before their terms expired and received appointments.
                  We have information that a priest after such a registration, told
                  his wife and two daughters who had come to visit him that they
                  should stop going to the Soviet Patriarchal Church when they
                  returned home. "It is better not to go to any church whatever or
                  receive communion at all than to be implicated in a church of
                  evil-doers," he said. The widow of the priest (he was shot -after
                  their visit) and her two daughters were persecuted by the Soviet
                  priests who called them "schismatics" and "sectarians." They were
                  nourished in the Catacomb Church and kept the Sacrament in their
                  house (1945). "The persecutions of the secret priests and bishops
                  were so, cruel," writes one anonymous correspondent, a refugee
                  from the Soviet Union, "that if was very difficult to find the
                  secret Church." The names of the bishops and priests of the
                  Catacomb Church are kept in the strictest and most reverent
                  secrecy. It is impossible to say with any accuracy how many there
                  are, although information regarding the activity of more than ten
                  secret bishops has even penetrated the Iron Curtain. Some of the
                  secret bishops are now abroad. There are also metropolitans in
                  the Catacomb Church. If it is not possible to ascertain the
                  number of the priests (who are mostly secret hieromonks), we can
                  say that it is known only that there are all too few of them to
                  feed the flock that desires the ministry of such shepherds in the
                  Soviet Union. Those hungry souls are "as the sand of the sea," to
                  quote a secret bishop. The very existence of the Catacomb Church
                  in the conditions of the Soviet Union would be impossible were it
                  not that nation-wide thirst for the true, as distinct from a
                  false, Church. The lack of priests is partly compensated for by
                  numbers. of secret nuns and also dedicated men and women who
                  serve the Secret Church. They read Akathists and conduct group
                  prayers of a general nature called "meetings by candle-light."
                  Some secret bishops call these pious people, who selflessly serve
                  the Secret Church everywhere, "sub-pastors." The sub-pastors
                  mostly keep in their houses the Holy Sacrament which is obtained
                  with great difficulty and the utmost caution on the rare
                  occasions when meetings with the secret shepherds occur.
                  According to information given by later refugees (1947-1948) the
                  work of the secret priests prior to 1948 (before the new
                  registration of the clergy) was distinctly easier in the
                  concentration camps than in "freedom." But after 1945 it became
                  more difficult inside the concentration camps than outside them.,
                  According to a secret priest from Siberia and a secret monk from
                  the North of Russia who fled from the Soviet inferno in 1945 and
                  whom I saw personally, there were occasions when "komsomols" of
                  the "godless' section who were known for their anti-Church
                  activity were sent in obedience to party discipline as students
                  to the, re-opened Theological Seminary. Citizens of Soviet Russia
                  who formerly used to go to church and then stopped going were
                  sometimes summoned to the M.G.B. (former G.P.U.) and asked why
                  they had given up going to church. They were forced to choose
                  between going to the official church again or writing and
                  publishing in a Soviet paper a complete repudiation of all
                  religion as an "opiate of the people." Thus, going to a Soviet
                  church was tantamount to renouncing Christ and to the total
                  rejection of religion. A priest of the Soviet church, who in 1948
                  left the Soviet Zone of Germany for the American Zone, told me
                  personally how he had been summoned to the M.G.B. (G.P.U.) where
                  he was "requested" so to influence an aged women, mother of a
                  Soviet general, that she would stop going to church. The priest,
                  under threat of punishment, was forbidden to mention that the
                  M.G.B. had been involved in the affair. He carried out the
                  request. All secret priests detected in the Soviet Zone of
                  Germany have been shot. All priests who did not recognize
                  Patriarch Alexis were also shot. According to the testimony of
                  numerous refugees from Soviet Russia who attended Soviet churches
                  in the years 1945-1949, the majority of the believers are sharply
                  opposed -to the official church hierarchy and in particular to
                  Patriarch Alexis personally. "I cannot live without church," some
                  people say, "but I do not recognize the Soviet Patriarch." Many
                  are going to the Soviet churches only because of the venerated
                  and miraculous icons that are still there. "We go to church when
                  there is no service to kiss the icons," say others. "I go to
                  church but I do not confess or communicate, because the bishops
                  and priests are serving the Soviet government," say others. There
                  are priests who at home weep and regret that they are serving in
                  the Soviet church. But there are other priests and monks who say,
                  "Now you can save yourself in the church by lying," but "the
                  keeping of the canons" is the most important thing. There are
                  very few who approve fully of all that Patriarch Alexis says and
                  does. The majority of those who do so are the intellectuals,
                  professors who have adapted themselves to the Soviet regime. The
                  simpler the people, the clearer, they see the falsity in the
                  church and deplore it. It is beyond doubt that the majority of
                  the clergy and laity in the Soviet church are the so-called
                  "apostates in time of persecution."
                  A refugee from "there," a man devoted to the Church, who had
                  sometime attended Soviet churches and who afterwards suffered on
                  that account, asserts categorically, "If Russia is liberated and
                  the Church calls people to repent for attending Soviet churches,
                  the repentance will be sincere and nation-wide." The majority of
                  those who go to the Soviet churches are convinced that abroad is
                  "The True Russian Orthodox Church which does not acknowledge
                  the Soviet Patriarch" (according to many witnesses). The name of
                  Metropolitan Anastassy and his work are better known at the
                  present time among the faithful in Soviet Russia than formerly
                  the name and activity abroad of Metropolitan Anthony. (For
                  instance, almost no one knew anything of the Council of
                  Karlovtsy). This great publicity is explained by the temporary
                  German occupation when large numbers of Soviet citizens learned
                  of the activity of the clergy abroad. During the first years of
                  the occupation the former Soviet citizens were unable to
                  distinguish between the different jurisdictions, of the Orthodox
                  Church abroad and regarded them as all equal. But they gradually
                  began to see the difference and then they greeted with deep joy
                  the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia led by Metropolitan
                  Anastassy, whereas they began speaking with indignation of the
                  other jurisdictions. That explains why the majorityof the
                  so-called new emigration have become active members of the
                  Church Abroad. The exarch of the Baltic, Metropolitan Sergius
                  (Voskresensky), who during the German occupation, extended his
                  church. authority to the districts of Pskov and Novgorod, strove
                  in vain (threatening to suspend his priests) against the
                  non-observance of his orders to remember by name in the church
                  services the Soviet Metropolitan Sergius.
                  The priests of the Catacomb Church who began to serve the
                  Orthodox churches which were re-opened in large numbers by the
                  Germans, firmly refused to mention the Soviet metropolitan. For
                  instance, in the town of Soltsy, in the diocese of Novgorod,
                  Father V., formerly provost of the city of Minsk, refused to
                  mention the Soviet Metropolitan Sergius notwithstanding the
                  strictest orders of the provost of the Novgorod district, Father
                  Vassily Rushanov. That was in 1942, but later Father V. became a
                  catacomb priest and 'in 1943 he began secretly to remember
                  Metropolitan Anastassy. Now it is well known that many of those
                  who after the German occupation returned to Soviet Russia, when
                  attending Soviet churches secretly pray for Metropolitan
                  Anastassy and regard him as Head of the Orthodox Church.
                  This is information, poor in quantity but significant in quality,
                  which I obtained partly orally and directly, partly through
                  correspondence with refugees unknown to me personally who came
                  from behind the iron curtain between 1945 and 1949. While
                  rejecting categorically the top prelates (the Patriarchs Sergius
                  and Alexis and their active and convinced assistants), who have
                  sinned against the Orthodox Church and the Russian people, we
                  must be very cautious and attentive in deciding what is the.
                  character of their flock. The Catacomb Church that exists today
                  in the Soviet hell is doing a truly holy work. All persons who
                  take part in that radiant Church, whether as archpastor, pastor,
                  sub-pastor or simple members of the flock who join it
                  deliberately and consciously, can be only a few, select souls
                  capable not only of "living in the Church" (to use Khomiakov's
                  words) but also of dying a martyr's death for her. Such heroism
                  cannot be expected of the broad masses of the people. The masses
                  have proved to be "the fallen in time of persecution." The
                  degree, forms, conditions, character, and circumstances of the
                  fall must be taken into account in each individual case. The sin
                  of apostasy must be denounced, but a distinction must be made in
                  degree of responsibility in the case of the tempters, the tempted
                  and those "little ones" who succumb to temptation.

                  Professor Ivan Andreyev




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                • antiquariu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nikitinmike@yahoo.com writes: It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                    In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    nikitinmike@... writes:

                    It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                    were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet
                    authorities, and that most of them acted as agents of the KGB (the current
                    Patriarch, as is now known from recently opened secret archives was "Agent
                    Drozdov").





                    Dear Father Mark, dear in-Christ list!

                    First off, please do not censor this message; I realize my statement is not
                    popular with the fringe, and it's not lost on me that for some reason I do not
                    comprehend, any time I say something about the tendency for some folks to
                    find Commies under each bed (or ambo), I get censored. There is no credible
                    archival record of "the current Patriarch, as is now known from recently opened
                    secret archives was "Agent Drozdov". There is spurious mention of such from
                    a group of self-serving folks who include the notoriously self-serving
                    pseudo-scholar Mitrokhin, a defrocked priest (Gleb Yakunin) and an iffy news
                    service. Doesn't anyone wonder for a minute why none of these folks were ever
                    held to even the slightest standard of accountable scholarship?Nothing main
                    stream, nothing independently verifiable. Enough of this red herring! have no
                    doubt that every hierarch and priest was somehow carried in the rolls, many
                    without knowing. But let God judge the Patriarch. I feel more confident
                    about the chestnost' of that direction than that of the sabre-rattling
                    revanchists like Nikitin.

                    In Christ,

                    Vova H.
                    Soldier, archivist, scholar, linguist, and someone who has probably had more
                    access to "the recently opened secret archives" than anyone else on this
                    list.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bratislav Peplinski
                    Dear Sir, I just don t understand. I am beginning to think someone needs to write this down on a piece of paper, roll it up, and shove it in your ear for it to
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                      Dear Sir,

                      I just don't understand. I am beginning to think someone needs to write this down on a piece of paper, roll it up, and shove it in your ear for it to get through to you: However you might interpret the "anathema of ecumenism", the Synod, both then and now, which pronounced it understands itself differently. Please remember that your voice is not the voice of ROCOR and your mind is definetly not the mind of ROCOR.

                      You express very well, however, the mind of a certain small but vocal minority within ROCOR that for a short streak of time became quite popular. But it is very very telling that you can only really provide quotes from these handful of hierarchs and professors and other "experts" and only from a couple of recent decades. If there was ever a "new Rocor" as you like to say, it is now being done away with. We are, thanks be to God, returning to the royal middle path and avoiding the extremes that you are bathing in.

                      -Bratislav
                      Milwaukee

                      michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:


                      ROCOR was NEVER a member of WCC.

                      I know what MP is all about by knowing my previous Metropolitants
                      and Bishops and what they wrote and from their sermons. My
                      parents and grandparents told us from their experience with MP.

                      MP stated they will NEVER leave WCC and so instead ROCOR, by
                      uniting with MP is falling under its own anathema.
                      The ROCOR came out firmly on the side of strictness of Orthodoxy.
                      It is staunchly Old Calendar, and very much opposed to both
                      ecumenism and modernism, which it considers to be antithetical to
                      Orthodoxy.

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                    • DDD
                      ... the notoriously self-serving pseudo-scholar Mitrokhin, a defrocked priest (Gleb Yakunin) and an iffy news service. ... In Christ, Vova H. Soldier,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                        ... the notoriously self-serving
                        pseudo-scholar Mitrokhin, a defrocked priest (Gleb Yakunin) and an iffy news
                        service. ...
                        In Christ,

                        Vova H.
                        Soldier, archivist, scholar, linguist, and someone who has probably had more
                        access to "the recently opened secret archives" than anyone else on this
                        list.
                        ___________________________________

                        Dear Vova,

                        I appreciate your comments... Could you elaborate on these three a bit more for those of us who don't already know much (or anything) about them? Specifically,

                        1) who is Mitrokhin, and why do you refer to him as a pseudo-scholar and self-serving? (I am not disagreeing with your analysis; I simply don't know anything about him at all) Sorry to ask you to write an essay, but if you care to, it would help at least me if not others to have a better understanding of things.

                        2) Why was priest Gleb Yakunin defrocked?

                        3) What is the news service and why is it iffy (for example, other instances of its iffiness).

                        Thanks!

                        Dimitra Dwelley
                      • Athanasios Jayne
                        In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ... were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet authorities...
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                          In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          nikitinmike@... writes:

                          >> It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                          were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet
                          authorities...<<

                          It is also no secret that almost all the current Bishops of the
                          MP were Ordained *after* the fall of the Soviet regime.

                          Athanasios.
                        • interestedplus
                          Dear Dimitra, How can you say that: DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 11, 2007
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                            Dear Dimitra,

                            How can you say that:
                            "DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally
                            that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when the reasons
                            that divide us no longer exist. And now, in our lifetimes, the
                            atheist regime has fallen, the persecutions have ended, the Church
                            in Russia is free and operates normally--the reasons that divide us
                            no longer exist."

                            What of ecumenistic activity - the fact that the current MP is in
                            the WCC central council and has signed all the heretical documents
                            all member "churches" signed?? What of the current MP's
                            sergianist=compromised-with-the-world-powers actuality - they do not
                            say Sergey and his followers were wrong, new martyrs include
                            obnovlentsi and persecutors who were killed by the regime they
                            supported (very Satanic - to do in the ones who served you)? What
                            about the partial (and so warped) acknowledgement of Royal Martyrs
                            as "strastoterptzi" and not martyrs for Christ as ROCOR acknowledged
                            them? What of Alexey IInd recent congratulatory messages to
                            persecutors of Christians like Castro and the Cambodian heads of
                            gov't? What of the current MPs constant political activity, their
                            total disregard for the Orthodox stance against ecumenism of most of
                            their clergy and layiaty, the constant disregard for their "out in
                            the sticks" clergy, who actually do Christ's work and are murdered
                            for it? What of their Vatican-like (and therefore heretical) stances
                            on dealing with property, business, money making ventures? And I'm
                            not including the personal heresies of bishop Kirill et al(eg saying
                            that the Mother of God was a "sinless vessel" a la Vatican 2...etc
                            etc.)

                            "the reasons that divide us no longer exist" ?????????

                            Yes - we are one with the faithful of Russia (and the Church of all
                            time), ROCOR has never been separate from them. But reasons NOT TO
                            UNIFY (NEVER RE-UNIFY) with the current statilinst-MP - they still
                            exist. Once the MP is truly part of the Russian Orthodox Church,
                            then we wont need specially constructed (vidumanni) services
                            to "unify" with them.

                            If all the bishops of ROCOR go off into schism with the stalinist-MP
                            to become ROCOR-MP, I stay with Christ and the Russian Orthodox
                            Church. God will give the faithful bishops, fully canonical bishops.
                            We must all be true to Our Lord as our conscience dictates. He is
                            The Judge. It is to HIM we will all answer.

                            With love in Christ our Saviour

                            Alexandra


                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > CHRIST IS BORN! GLORIFY HIM!
                            >
                            > On Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:32:29 -0800 (PST), Basil Yakimov wrote:
                            >  EPISTLE TO ALL TRUE FOLLOWERS OF ROCOR:
                            >
                            > DD: The true followers of ROCOR are those who
                            >
                            > 1) *follow* the original Charter of the ROCOR (which states that
                            it is a temporary entity and must reunite immediately with the
                            Church Inside Russia upon the fall of the atheist regime and
                            restoration of normal church life in Russia--both of which have
                            happened), and who
                            > 2) *follow* the decisions of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor (which
                            resolved to reunite with the Church in Russia) and who
                            > 3) *follow* our hierarchs, who have, with prayer for God's will to
                            be done, and taking into consideration and not forgetting the
                            concerns of the faithful--which are not separate from their own
                            concerns--resolved that the Church Outside of Russia reunite with
                            the Church Inside Russia.
                            >
                            > *Those* are the true followers of ROCOR.
                            >
                            > Those who ignore the temporary nature of our Charter, who try to
                            overturn the resolution of the Fourth All-Diaspora Sobor, and who--
                            far from *following* our hierarchs--fight against them, even calling
                            them "traitors," are not followers of ROCOR, but fighters against
                            Her.
                            >
                            > But beyond this, we do not follow "ROCOR" (in its temporary
                            charter), but rather, we follow the Church, which clearly stated and
                            states that ROCOR is temporary. To follow ROCOR beyond the bounds
                            of its temporary Charter is to be precisely like many of the Jews in
                            the time of the Saviour, who considered themselves to be "loyal" to
                            the Traditions of the Fathers and who continued to "follow" the Law
                            beyond the bounds set for it, rather than following the Giver of the
                            Law into the New Testament. Think about this! It is precisely what
                            allowed Saul to persecute the Church!
                            >
                            >
                            > DBY: " In anticipation of the establishment of Eucharistic
                            >  Communion and the merging of the Russian Church Abroad into the
                            >  structure of the Moscow Patriarchate, which will occur on
                            Ascension
                            >  in 2007, we all need to take a stand and define our position on
                            the
                            >  future of ROCOR.
                            >
                            > DD: Was this "stand" not defined at the Fourth All-Diaspora
                            Sobor? All else is fighting against the Holy Spirit!
                            >
                            >
                            > DBY: believes it is critical to remain
                            >  with the traditional ROCOR and preserve its current state, which
                            >  existed under all our Hierarchs of blessed memory.
                            >
                            > DD: St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco stated unequivocally
                            that we *would* reunite with the Church in Russia, when the reasons
                            that divide us no longer exist. And now, in our lifetimes, the
                            atheist regime has fallen, the persecutions have ended, the Church
                            in Russia is free and operates normally--the reasons that divide us
                            no longer exist.
                            >
                            > Furthermore, the ROCOR did NOT exist under all our Hierarchs of
                            blessed memory: there was no ROCOR when St. Patriarch Tikhon was
                            first elected; there was no ROCOR under Metropolitan Macarius II or
                            I; there was no ROCOR under the great Metropolitan Philaret of
                            Moscow.
                            >
                            > Our own ROCOR great hierarchs of blessed memory always prayed for
                            the fall of the atheist regime and the return to Russia. No more
                            poignant reminder of this exists than the very moving Translation of
                            the Vestments of the Ever-Memorable Vladyka Philaret of NY, who
                            willed that his vestments and staff be given to the Patriarch of
                            Russia who would reign when the Church there would be free again.
                            Thank God we have lived to see this day!
                            >
                            > --Dimitra Dwelley
                            > 3rd Day of the Feast of the Nativity of Christ
                            > Feast of M. Stephen
                            >
                          • Michael Woodson
                            Response below. ... They were mostly selected and ordained as clergy during Soviet years, and selected by a Soviet agent, Alexei II (not just a collaborator).
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 12, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Response below.


                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Athanasios Jayne"
                              <athanasiosj@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              > nikitinmike@ writes:
                              >
                              > >> It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                              > were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet
                              > authorities...<<
                              >
                              > It is also no secret that almost all the current Bishops of the
                              > MP were Ordained *after* the fall of the Soviet regime.
                              >
                              > Athanasios.
                              >

                              They were mostly selected and ordained as clergy during Soviet years,
                              and selected by a Soviet agent, Alexei II (not just a collaborator).

                              Here's sad news for you, the Soviet era has just taken on a more
                              streamlined look. It's not over, and that is so very, very
                              disappointing and unfortunate for all of us until it is finally and
                              fully buried.

                              Russia could take a lesson from Poland on getting the Soviets out of
                              power entirely. A peaceful purge of Sovietists is a prerequisite to
                              moving Russia ahead. Clergy who are former agents of secret police
                              forces can be forgiven, however, by no means does forgiveness mean
                              leaving them in power. I hope Ms. Andreev can appreciate that.

                              Forgiving an alcoholic doesn't mean letting him drink.
                            • michael nikitin
                              All of the MP bishops were primed and educated by the Soviets. Those ordained after the fall of the Soviet regime were all ordained by Soviet bishops. Why
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 12, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                All of the MP bishops were primed and educated by the Soviets.
                                Those ordained after the "fall" of the Soviet regime were all
                                ordained by Soviet bishops.

                                Why are those for union trying to kill the messenger?
                                Any questions should be directed at Fr.Alexander Lebedeff.
                                It was Fr.Alexander Lebedeff who wrote this in 1996, six years
                                after the MP became "free".

                                "The Moscow Patriarchate came into being only after 1927, when
                                Met. Sergius usurped the authority of the lawful Patriarchal
                                Locum Tenens, Metropolitan Peter, and called together a Synod of
                                Bishops hand-picked by the Soviet authorities, and immediately
                                began to follow the Soviet governments directives as to which
                                statments to make, which bishops to assign where, etc.
                                It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the MP
                                were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the Soviet
                                authorities, and that most of them acted as agents of the KGB
                                (the current Patriarch, as is now known from recently opened
                                secret archives was "Agent Drozdov").

                                Michael N


                                --- Athanasios Jayne <athanasiosj@...> wrote:

                                > In a message dated 1/11/2007 1:11:44 P.M. Eastern Standard
                                > Time,
                                > nikitinmike@... writes:
                                >
                                > >> It is no secret that almost all of the senior bishops of the
                                > MP
                                > were appointed only after being carefuly screened by the
                                > Soviet
                                > authorities...<<
                                >
                                > It is also no secret that almost all the current Bishops of the
                                >
                                > MP were Ordained *after* the fall of the Soviet regime.
                                >
                                > Athanasios.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >





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