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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory

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  • kharaku@mac.com
    why so that they can kick all the ethnics out and have a hot dogs apple pie chevy and tacos church?(thats what passes for culture in america and it aint really
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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      why so that they can kick all the ethnics out and have a hot dogs apple pie chevy and tacos church?(thats what passes for culture in america and it aint really culture).

      what little culture the west has is based on everything opposed to orthodoxy
      -----Original Message-----

      From: boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...>
      Subj: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
      Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:02 am
      Size: 3K
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      >>
      > But the more we are part of a larger Church, the more balance and
      stability we have; and
      > the less likely we are to fear that the Church administration is
      being taken over by
      > Panteleimonites or by a Ludmilla Rosnianskaya.
      >

      And another thing about that: where do all the revnitili think we're
      going to get priests and, especially, BISHOPS, if we stay secluded?

      Our Sobor is down to, what, a dozen bishops now? We can't find
      someone to take care of Canada nor South America... Our bishops are
      stretched thin, and there are PITIFULLY FEW qualified potential
      candidates among our tiny number of monks to replace them!!

      The more I think about it, the more I believe that there needs to be
      an ecumenical council that establishes a new patriarchate in the
      western hemisphere. The New World was unknown when canonical
      territories were created, and it's time for the Church (after 600
      years!) to catch up with history and create a canonical patriarchate
      based on territory, not ethnicity... it's a complex question, I
      know...

      Elizabeth



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    • kharaku@mac.com
      personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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        personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

        George Green

        -----Original Message-----

        From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
        Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
        Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
        Size: 2K
        To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

        From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

        > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

        You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
        (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
        snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
        know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
        that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
        do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
        respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
        children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
        violation of the list Guidelines.

        Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
        it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
        know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
        not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
        happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
        of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
        I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
        trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
        compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
        of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

        By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
        identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
        ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

        pr Mark



        Messages in this topic (6)
      • Archpriest David Moser
        ... sing and read, and ... Peoria. ... joining it too... ... Rd Peoria, IL. ... Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as well.
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          > Send a Russian-speaking priest to Peoria IL, along with someone to
          sing and read, and
          > there will be enough "new arrivals" from Russia to start a parish in
          Peoria.
          >
          > And once there is a Russian Orthodox parish, Americans will start
          joining it too...
          >
          > Now there is only All Saints Greek Orthodox Church, 1812 N Prospect
          Rd Peoria, IL.
          >

          Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as
          well. I visited there a year ago (my family lives in Peoria) and
          spoke with the priest. He is a young Arab/American with roots in the
          local community (family is well established there) and the parish is a
          really good blend of Arabs and Americans (cradle and convert). Next
          time I'm in town, I plan to visit again.

          A/pr David Moser
        • DDD
          On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:51:18 -0000, Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:  And this with us or agin us mentality is not at all anything  new. I felt compelled to
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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            On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:51:18 -0000, Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
             And this "with us" or "agin us" mentality is not at all anything
             new. I felt compelled to raise the very same issue on the rocaclergy
             list beginning in 2001, "as an appeal for restraint from an apparent
             witchhunt of identifying and labeling enemies, especially by
             clergy." "hurling a litany of insults...at people who are just
             trying to understand what is going on."

            DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

            --Dimitra Dwelley
          • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
            ... Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria. She was aware of the Greek parish, but I don t think she knows about this. When
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
              <moserd@...> wrote:

              > Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as
              > well. I visited there a year ago (my family lives in Peoria)...Next
              > time I'm in town, I plan to visit again.

              Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria.
              She was aware of the Greek parish, but I don't think she knows about
              this. When visiting them over a week-end, we go to their ROCOR
              parish, St Innocent in Wheaton, or to Vladimirova (east of Freeport).

              prM
            • Seraphim Patterson
              ... This is so true. As I said on another list, had I not seem the miracles surrounding my late wife s illness and repose I would not even be Orthodox in name
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                > After >5 years of the same old stuff I still say: Shame! Stidno!
                > The sarcasm one sees all over the internet lists is tearing more than
                > the flesh (the literal meaning) of individuals, it is attacking the
                > very fabric, and driving people away from the Church itself "which
                > would contradict the main objective of all church rules" as Bp Daniel
                > says.


                This is so true. As I said on another list, had I not seem the miracles surrounding my late wife's illness and repose I would not even be Orthodox in name right now. Never would I believe that the true Church could be so filled with meanness or even outright ruthlessness.

                Seraphim
              • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
                ... pro-union or even the derogatory pro-unia labels? Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in Utica MY, and Instructor of
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:

                  > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                  "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

                  Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                  Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                  on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                  the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                  and CU.

                  I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                  is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                  insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                  cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                  everyone")

                  One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                  comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                  is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                  our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                  endure.

                  prM
                • Seraphim Patterson
                  ... Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--on every point above. Seraphim
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                    ---- Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                    > "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?
                    >
                    > Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                    > Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                    > on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                    > the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                    > and CU.
                    >
                    > I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                    > is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                    > insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                    > cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                    > everyone")
                    >
                    > One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                    > comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                    > is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                    > our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                    > endure.
                    >
                    > prM


                    Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--on every point above.

                    Seraphim
                  • Mike Woodson
                    Now this post deals with the middle way we need to hear more about. The one that is to neither extreme, and the one which slows down to listen, to consider,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                      Now this post deals with the middle way we need to hear more about.
                      The one that is to neither extreme, and the one which slows down to
                      listen, to consider, and not to be rushed by temporal considerations
                      into actions that do not add up to dispassionate actions.

                      As for exercising patience and waiting longer until Moscow's old and
                      new Soviet authorities clear out of positions of ill-gotten influence
                      by which they go on hurting others, I do not see that as an extreme
                      opposition to faux-union, just prudent. And the people who hold this
                      view that I know do not act in the extreme, however usually try their
                      best to hold to the merits.

                      I am likely the most extreme in communication among them, with
                      passions of anger and frustration in my soul struggling for voice
                      against my reason which should better explain what my conscience is
                      alerted to as falsehood, i.e. false pretexts from the MP. There are
                      many better qualified to voice the opposition to the falseness, and I
                      can only hope I have not messed anything up with regard to bringing
                      out the whole truth because of the way I have posted.

                      Best,
                      Michael

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap"
                      <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I said
                      > "Like some other clergy, you may..."
                      >
                      > Oops, imprecision, sorry, read that as
                      > "you might, like some others" aka "maybe"
                      >
                      > "... but it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union
                      > is a prideful know-more-than-the-bishops knave"
                      >
                      > which refers directly to dVG's "they think they know better than our
                      > First Hierarch met. Lavr and the Holy Synod". which appears to be a
                      > insulting judgment - for which I did not see pvb demanding proof.
                      >
                      > This is a public list, not a private e-mail between individuals,
                      > which could legitimately be interpreted as personal. Everything I said
                      > (even this) is meant to be directed to the List, to more than one
                      > person i.e. "you all" as I started out my last post. If I had been
                      > speaking only to one person I would have used private e-mail.
                      >
                      > This was a general point about moderation of behaviour, not an
                      > upbraid of an individual.
                      >
                      > As it says in the Guidelines:
                      >
                      > "Post to the LIST (to all members), not to an
                      > individual. Personal mail should be private
                      > mail.
                      >
                      > " ... be careful about
                      > uses of "you" and "your" in such replies,
                      > since they can make the response appear to
                      > be personal."
                      >
                      > I fell short by using "You" too much. I did consider using "one" but
                      > it didn't sound right.
                      >
                      > My imprecision in language and the use of "you" not withstanding, the
                      > point was to refrain from disputation on the basis of a person's
                      > identity. We are not to be respecters of persons, and the truth of
                      > what someone says does not depend on who they are.
                      >
                      > "Speak to the truth of the facts, quality of
                      > the premises, and logic of the conclusions
                      > of the other participants, not to their person
                      > (ad hominem). "
                      >
                      > Nice diversion though - that seems to be the tactic de jure. Zero in
                      > on grammar, imprecision of language, a person's identity,
                      > whatever..., but by all means avoid speaking about the dead cat on
                      > the table - which is that that certain clergy (not the bishops) seem
                      > intent on driving away all who disagree with them. Part of this is
                      > premised on an assumption that the opposition is just as black/white
                      > and agenda-driven as oneself.
                      >
                      > And this "with us" or "agin us" mentality is not at all anything new.
                      > I felt compelled to raise the very same issue on the rocaclergy list
                      > beginning in 2001, "as an appeal for restraint from an apparent
                      > witchhunt of identifying and labeling enemies, especially by clergy."
                      > "hurling a litany of insults...at people who are just trying to
                      > understand what is going on."
                      >
                      > Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole everyone. Not
                      > everyone is one or the other, an enemy or a comrade, even if
                      > sycophancy drives some to one extreme or the other.
                      >
                      > After >5 years of the same old stuff I still say: Shame! Stidno!
                      > The sarcasm one sees all over the internet lists is tearing more than
                      > the flesh (the literal meaning) of individuals, it is attacking the
                      > very fabric, and driving people away from the Church itself "which
                      > would contradict the main objective of all church rules" as Bp Daniel
                      > says.
                      >
                    • frvictor@comcast.net
                      We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list such as you are red as a beat. But don t worry, such Macarthyite tactics will not stop the
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                        We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list such as "you are red as a beat." But don't worry, such Macarthyite tactics will not stop the faithful from defending the conciliar decisions of our Church.

                        The complaint, however, dear moderator, is not over the personal insults which you repeatedly permit on this list, but the attacks on our Church, on the coniliar decisions of our Church and on our bishops which you permit. You say we should just endure, yet in all the times you chose to jump in, it is over Fr. Vadim's very mild post.

                        I think this all proves, once again, that this list has hit a dead end, and it is time to put it out of its misery. On the other hand, if it allows a forum for those who think they are smarter than our bishops to vent, and in the process feel they are making somce difference, then I suppose it serves some purpose.

                        Priest Victor Boldewskul

                        -------------- Original message --------------
                        From: "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <fr.mark@...>
                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:

                        > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                        "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

                        Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                        Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                        on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                        the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                        and CU.

                        I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                        is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                        insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                        cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                        everyone")

                        One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                        comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                        is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                        our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                        endure.

                        prM




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                        ... JRS: There is balm in Gilead.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
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                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Seraphim Patterson <serafim@...> wrote:

                          > ---- Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap <fr.mark@...> wrote:

                          > > I am pro-union in a very real, but
                          > > cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                          > > everyone")

                          > Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--
                          > on every point above.

                          > Seraphim

                          JRS: There is balm in Gilead.
                        • Archpriest David Moser
                          ... Memory fails, I ll have to recollect a bit, but off the top its on Sheridan, just south of Loucks. The Church is in a building behind a tailor shop. I
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
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                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap"
                            <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria.
                            >

                            Memory fails, I'll have to recollect a bit, but off the top its on
                            Sheridan, just south of Loucks. The Church is in a building behind a
                            tailor shop. I *think* the priest is a Fr Habib. I have the
                            directions and contact info on my other computer at home, but I can't
                            get at it until after the first of the year.

                            A/pr David Moser
                          • Basil Yakimov
                            Fr Victor, Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
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                              Fr Victor,

                              Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                              unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra


                              PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..


                              PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...



                              kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                              George Green

                              -----Original Message-----

                              From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                              Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                              Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                              Size: 2K
                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                              From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                              > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                              You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                              (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                              snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                              know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                              that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                              do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                              respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                              children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                              violation of the list Guidelines.

                              Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                              it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                              know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                              not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                              happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                              of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                              I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                              trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                              compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                              of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                              By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                              identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                              ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                              pr Mark



                              Messages in this topic (6)





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                            • frvictor@comcast.net
                              Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
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                                Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this Macarthyism or is this a Soviet tactic?
                                Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                From: Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...>
                                Fr Victor,

                                Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                                unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra


                                PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..


                                PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...



                                kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                                George Green

                                -----Original Message-----

                                From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                                Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                                Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                                Size: 2K
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                                > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                                You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                                (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                                snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                                know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                                that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                                do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                                respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                                children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                                violation of the list Guidelines.

                                Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                                it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                                know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                                not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                                happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                                of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                                I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                                trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                                compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                                of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                                By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                                identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                                ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                                pr Mark



                                Messages in this topic (6)





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                              • gene703
                                Senator Joseph McCarthy was a good man. He was aggressively investigating claims that there were Communist and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
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                                  Senator Joseph McCarthy was a good man. He was aggressively investigating claims that there were Communist and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal government back in the 50's. No wonder his name is used as a pejorative by pro red church folks on this list. I say it is high time for a "mcarthyite" commie hunt, this time in the Russian Orthodox Church.

                                  Gene T


                                  frvictor@... wrote:
                                  Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this Macarthyism or is this a Soviet tactic?
                                  Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                  From: Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...>
                                  Fr Victor,

                                  Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                                  unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra

                                  PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..

                                  PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...

                                  kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                                  George Green

                                  -----Original Message-----

                                  From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                                  Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                                  Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                                  Size: 2K
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                  From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                                  > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                                  You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                                  (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                                  snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                                  know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                                  that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                                  do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                                  respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                                  children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                                  violation of the list Guidelines.

                                  Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                                  it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                                  know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                                  not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                                  happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                                  of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                                  I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                                  trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                                  compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                                  of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                                  By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                                  identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                                  ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                                  pr Mark

                                  Messages in this topic (6)

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                                • michael nikitin
                                  Does Fr.Victor consider the statements below from our new Russian Martyrs, previous hierarch s and Synod Resolution, attacks on our Church? Michael N
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jan 1, 2007
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                                    Does Fr.Victor consider the statements below from our new Russian
                                    Martyrs, previous hierarch's and Synod Resolution, attacks on our
                                    Church?

                                    Michael N


                                    http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/concerning-patriarch-pimen.html
                                    "All of the elections of Patriarchs in Moscow, beginning in 1943,
                                    are invalid on the basis of the 30th Canon of the Holy Apostles
                                    and the 3rd Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council"


                                    "We will not give the Church as a sacrifice over
                                    to the mercy of the BETRAYERS OF GOD and foul
                                    politicians and agents of atheism and destruction.
                                    And by this protest we do NOT cut ourselves off from
                                    her, but WE cut THEM off from US and boldly say: not
                                    only have we NOT gone away and do NOT go away and will
                                    NEVER go away from the bosom of the TRUE Orthodox
                                    Church, but those who are not with us and for us but
                                    are against us we consider Her ENEMIES, BETRAYERS, AND
                                    MURDERERS. It is not WE who go into schism by not
                                    submitting to Metropolitan Sergius, but rather YOU who
                                    are obedient to him go with him into THE ABYSS OF THE
                                    CHURCH'S CONDEMNATION.---Saint Joseph of Petrograd,
                                    1928"


                                    Excerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter to fr.Victor Potapov.
                                    [..."we receive the clergymen from Moscow not as ones possessing
                                    grace, but as ones receiving it by the very act of union. But to
                                    recognize the church of the evil-doers as the bearer and
                                    repository of grace, that we cannot do, of course. For outside
                                    of Orthodoxy there is no grace; and the Soviet church has
                                    deprived itself of grace."]

                                    What then is the Soviet church? Archimandrite Constantine has
                                    often and insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                                    the God-hating regime has done in Russia is the creation of the
                                    Soviet Church, which the Bolsheviks presented to the people as
                                    the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox
                                    Church into the catacombs or into the concentration camps.

                                    This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized."



                                    At this time the then Archbishop Vitaly (Ustinov) of Montreal
                                    concurred totally with Metropolitan Philaret's evaluation. In a
                                    sympathetic yet uncompromising article which he published in the
                                    August 1980 *Parish Newsletter* of his St. Nicholas Cathedral in
                                    Montreal... he wrote: "... And in this good, urgent impulse of
                                    ours we somehow completely forgot a very important fact which no
                                    power can erase from life ... Father Dimitry forgot, as we all
                                    did, this fact which cannot be wiped away by time or by
                                    life. And this fact is the Soviet Moscow Patriarchate. We are in
                                    no way mistaken when we call the Patriarchate Soviet ... Such a
                                    corrupt, anti-canonical organism was not able, of course, to
                                    inspire Father Dimitry to follow the way of confession, much less
                                    of martyrdom, to the end. Father Dimitry's whole mistake is found
                                    in the fact that, although he often condemned and exposed his
                                    Soviet hierarchs, still he never separated himself from the
                                    Patriarchate as an organism, but even defended it as his own
                                    legal authority."

                                    http://www.monasterypress.com/statements.html
                                    under * article * section. Letter to a priest concerning the
                                    origin and status of the Moscow Patriarchate By Metropolitan
                                    Vitaly ..."the Moscow Patriarchate has lost the Apostolic
                                    Succession, which is to say, that it has lost the Grace of
                                    Christ."






                                    --- frvictor@... wrote:

                                    > We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list
                                    > such as "you are red as a beat." But don't worry, such
                                    > Macarthyite tactics will not stop the faithful from defending
                                    > the conciliar decisions of our Church.
                                    >
                                    > The complaint, however, dear moderator, is not over the
                                    > personal insults which you repeatedly permit on this list, but
                                    > the attacks on our Church, on the coniliar decisions of our
                                    > Church and on our bishops which you permit. You say we should
                                    > just endure, yet in all the times you chose to jump in, it is
                                    > over Fr. Vadim's very mild post.
                                    >
                                    > I think this all proves, once again, that this list has hit a
                                    > dead end, and it is time to put it out of its misery. On the
                                    > other hand, if it allows a forum for those who think they are
                                    > smarter than our bishops to vent, and in the process feel they
                                    > are making somce difference, then I suppose it serves some
                                    > purpose.
                                    >
                                    > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                                    >
                                    > -------------- Original message --------------
                                    > From: "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <fr.mark@...>
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                                    > "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?
                                    >
                                    > Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish
                                    > in Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in
                                    his letter on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon
                                    of Light", uses the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he
                                    then abbreviates as PU and CU.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in
                                    > English this is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought
                                    of Pro-Union as an
                                    > insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real,
                                    > but cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to
                                    > pigeonhole everyone")
                                    >
                                    > One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a
                                    > departing comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So
                                    you see, there
                                    > is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain
                                    > when it is
                                    > our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often,
                                    > just endure.
                                    >
                                    > prM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >


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                                  • Mike Woodson
                                    We need neither McCarthyism (aka agents provocateurs) or communist sympathizers, both extremes of which tend to bring out the other. I don t think it is a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jan 2, 2007
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                                      We need neither McCarthyism (aka agents provocateurs) or communist
                                      sympathizers, both extremes of which tend to bring out the other.

                                      I don't think it is a phenomenon of personal stereotype. I think it is
                                      a phenomenon that grows out of the divisive use of lies such as have
                                      been sprinkled into our ears by the MP.

                                      That has been the purpose of that organization since it gave itself to
                                      the Soviets.
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