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The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory

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  • gene703
    Do you know that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) is about to sign an agreement to become a part of the Moscow Patriarchate (MP)? Yes. Do
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 29, 2006
      Do you know that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) is about to sign an agreement to become a part of the Moscow Patriarchate (MP)? Yes.

      Do you think it is a good idea? Not very.

      Do you know... that the bolshevik, "unofficial Russian church" was created by Metropolitan Sergius without the blessings of the other bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time?

      Do you know... that for many years, most of the other Orthodox churches did not recognize the MP as the legitimate, canonical church of Russia?

      Do you know... that almost all of the ROCOR metropolitans did not consider the MP as the legitimate, canonical church of Russia?

      Do you know... that the MP was allowed to become the official church first by the NKVD (the KGB at that time) and later by Stalin himself?

      Do you know... that the MP was routinely used by the KGB to hide their spies and conduct espionage activities?

      Do you know... that most of the senior bishops in the MP either cooperated with the KGB or were agents for the KGB?

      Do you know... that KGB archives have shown that the current Patriarch, Alexy II, was a KGB collaborator with the codename “Major Drozdov” and even received a medal for his work?

      Do you know... that the MP belongs to the World Council of Churches (WCC), an international, ecumenical organization consisting of all the major Christian denominations, which believes all the churches are equal?

      Do you know... that ecumenism is considered a heresy by most Orthodox churches and one of the greatest sins a church could commit?

      Do you know... that if ROCOR joins the MP it will also be involved in this heresy?

      Do you know... that the WCC supports many leftist causes and has issued anti-American statements?

      Do you know that...
      ...the MP supports Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization?
      ...it has regular meetings with Iranian imams to discuss how to fight American influence in the world? That it congratulated communist Vietnam on its Victory Day?
      ...it purchased oil vouchers from Saddam Hussein in violation of UN sanctions?
      ...it built a church in the North Korea capital of Pyongyang?
      ...it built a church in the Cuban capital of Havana and congratulated Castro on his anniversary, saying that he was hand-picked by God to lead his people?

      Do you know that... the MP cooperated with the Soviet government while thousands of priests and bishops were being put to death in the Soviet Union?

      Do you know that... the MP continues to cooperate with the Russian government and the Patriarch promised the clergy’s vote to Putin in the last elections?

      Do you know that... the MP was involved in helping the anti-democratic, anti-West candidate Yanukovich become the Prime Minister in the Ukraine, and that he is now working to slow down the reforms of Ukrainian President Yushchenko?

      Do you know that... the agreement between the two churches is supposed to be signed in Moscow on May 17, 2007?

      Do you know that... after the agreement is signed, our church will be allowed only to conduct internal, ordinary business and that all appointments of our bishops and metropolitans will have to be approved by Moscow?

      Do you know that... after the agreement is signed, all of the past resolutions and official decisions of our church will be cancelled and considered no longer valid?

      Do you know that...
      ...after the agreement is signed, the MP will be able to send their priests, many of whom are still KGB/FSB agents, to any one of our churches throughout the whole world?
      ...the priest will be able to conduct espionage activities while protected by the rights and privileges granted to clergy?

      Do you know all of this? No.

      Do you still think it is a good idea? NO!!!


      Do you know...
      ...that there are a lot of priests, laypeople and several bishops who also do not think it is a good idea to join now?
      ...That they believe we should work with other clergy and people in Russia to establish a free, legitimate, canonical church in Russia,
      ...that will take care of the Russian people and not get involved in governmental politics?

      If you love your church and want what is best for it, please find out more by visiting these websites:

      http://revniteli.livejournal.com/
      http://elmager.livejournal.com/
      http://portal-credo.ru/

      If, after you learn more about the impending union, you believe that it should not occur, please share your opinion with your priest and/or bishop.

      The future of our church is in the hands of each and every one of us.

      The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
      http://elmager.livejournal.com/106692.html

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • maestro_vg
      Again, posts by Mike Woodson , Peter Bushonow, gene703 and his so- called revniteli demonstrate that they think they know better than our First Hierarch
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 29, 2006
        Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-
        called "revniteli" demonstrate that they think they know better than
        our First Hierarch met. Lavr and the Holy Synod.

        dVG

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
        >
        > Do you know that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
        (ROCOR) is about to sign an agreement to become a part of the Moscow
        Patriarchate (MP)? Yes.
        >
        > Do you think it is a good idea? Not very.
        >
        > Do you know... that the bolshevik, "unofficial Russian church" was
        created by Metropolitan Sergius without the blessings of the other
        bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time?
        >
        > Do you know... that for many years, most of the other Orthodox
        churches did not recognize the MP as the legitimate, canonical church
        of Russia?
        >
        > Do you know... that almost all of the ROCOR metropolitans did not
        consider the MP as the legitimate, canonical church of Russia?
        >
        > Do you know... that the MP was allowed to become the official
        church first by the NKVD (the KGB at that time) and later by Stalin
        himself?
        >
        > Do you know... that the MP was routinely used by the KGB to hide
        their spies and conduct espionage activities?
        >
        > Do you know... that most of the senior bishops in the MP either
        cooperated with the KGB or were agents for the KGB?
        >
        > Do you know... that KGB archives have shown that the current
        Patriarch, Alexy II, was a KGB collaborator with the codename "Major
        Drozdov" and even received a medal for his work?
        >
        > Do you know... that the MP belongs to the World Council of Churches
        (WCC), an international, ecumenical organization consisting of all
        the major Christian denominations, which believes all the churches
        are equal?
        >
        > Do you know... that ecumenism is considered a heresy by most
        Orthodox churches and one of the greatest sins a church could commit?
        >
        > Do you know... that if ROCOR joins the MP it will also be involved
        in this heresy?
        >
        > Do you know... that the WCC supports many leftist causes and has
        issued anti-American statements?
        >
        > Do you know that...
        > ...the MP supports Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization?
        > ...it has regular meetings with Iranian imams to discuss how to
        fight American influence in the world? That it congratulated
        communist Vietnam on its Victory Day?
        > ...it purchased oil vouchers from Saddam Hussein in violation of UN
        sanctions?
        > ...it built a church in the North Korea capital of Pyongyang?
        > ...it built a church in the Cuban capital of Havana and
        congratulated Castro on his anniversary, saying that he was hand-
        picked by God to lead his people?
        >
        > Do you know that... the MP cooperated with the Soviet government
        while thousands of priests and bishops were being put to death in the
        Soviet Union?
        >
        > Do you know that... the MP continues to cooperate with the Russian
        government and the Patriarch promised the clergy's vote to Putin in
        the last elections?
        >
        > Do you know that... the MP was involved in helping the anti-
        democratic, anti-West candidate Yanukovich become the Prime Minister
        in the Ukraine, and that he is now working to slow down the reforms
        of Ukrainian President Yushchenko?
        >
        > Do you know that... the agreement between the two churches is
        supposed to be signed in Moscow on May 17, 2007?
        >
        > Do you know that... after the agreement is signed, our church will
        be allowed only to conduct internal, ordinary business and that all
        appointments of our bishops and metropolitans will have to be
        approved by Moscow?
        >
        > Do you know that... after the agreement is signed, all of the past
        resolutions and official decisions of our church will be cancelled
        and considered no longer valid?
        >
        > Do you know that...
        > ...after the agreement is signed, the MP will be able to send their
        priests, many of whom are still KGB/FSB agents, to any one of our
        churches throughout the whole world?
        > ...the priest will be able to conduct espionage activities while
        protected by the rights and privileges granted to clergy?
        >
        > Do you know all of this? No.
        >
        > Do you still think it is a good idea? NO!!!
        >
        >
        > Do you know...
        > ...that there are a lot of priests, laypeople and several bishops
        who also do not think it is a good idea to join now?
        > ...That they believe we should work with other clergy and people in
        Russia to establish a free, legitimate, canonical church in Russia,
        > ...that will take care of the Russian people and not get involved
        in governmental politics?
        >
        > If you love your church and want what is best for it, please find
        out more by visiting these websites:
        >
        > http://revniteli.livejournal.com/
        > http://elmager.livejournal.com/
        > http://portal-credo.ru/
        >
        > If, after you learn more about the impending union, you believe
        that it should not occur, please share your opinion with your priest
        and/or bishop.
        >
        > The future of our church is in the hands of each and every one of
        us.
        >
        > The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
        > http://elmager.livejournal.com/106692.html
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
        ... This may play well in Brighton, but not in Peoria. Do you know... that a lot of people who have no Russian heritage find the above utterly irrelevant,
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 29, 2006
          > Do you know...
          > That they believe we should work with other clergy
          > and people in Russia to establish a free, legitimate,
          > canonical church in Russia,

          This may play well in Brighton, but not in Peoria.

          Do you know... that a lot of people who have no Russian heritage find
          the above utterly irrelevant, and are far more concerned with an
          Orthodox America grounded in the inclusive Traditionalism found, up to
          now, only in the Russian Church Abroad.

          Hispanics for example. They aren't at risk of "losing Russianness."
          Nor I. How does your "free, legitimate, canonical church in Russia,"
          help them or us other non-russian converts? It seems to this convert
          that both sides are arguing different aspects of the same phyletistic
          irrelevancy.

          pr Mark
          anglo

          --------------

          posted here Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:56 pm

          -prM This non-Russian has frequently asked: What benefit to the flock
          does this proposed union offer? How does it help "live as behooves
          Orthodox Christians?"

          Bp Daniel: "many converts to Orthodoxy from other faiths, not of of
          Russian descent at all, belong to our church, to whom the concept of
          "returning to Russia" is not applicable at all ... If our church
          submits to the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate, then those of us
          and our sheep for whom this is unacceptable, would be left without a
          church, which would contradict the main objective of all church rules"

          -------------------------------
          www.stjamesok.org
          www.roca.org
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: Send a Russian-speaking priest to Peoria IL, along with someone to sing and read, and there will be enough new arrivals from Russia to start a
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <fr.mark@...> wrote:

            > This may play well in Brighton, but not in Peoria.

            JRS: Send a Russian-speaking priest to Peoria IL, along with someone to sing and read, and
            there will be enough "new arrivals" from Russia to start a parish in Peoria.

            And once there is a Russian Orthodox parish, Americans will start joining it too...

            Now there is only All Saints Greek Orthodox Church, 1812 N Prospect Rd Peoria, IL.

            > Do you know... that a lot of people who have no Russian heritage find
            > the above utterly irrelevant, and are far more concerned with an
            > Orthodox America grounded in the inclusive Traditionalism found, up to
            > now, only in the Russian Church Abroad.

            JRS: I did not speak a word of Russian (except for "Da" and "Nyet", which everbody knows)
            till I was in high school.

            I came from a purely "Anglo" family.

            > It seems to this convert
            > that both sides are arguing different aspects of the same phyletistic
            > irrelevancy.

            JRS: That was what happened after the Council of Chalcedon.

            The dominant Greeks were chauvinistic, and looked down upon the Syrians, Egyptians, and
            Armenians.

            The people of those nationalities came to resent the Greeks.

            The rest is history.

            But if "There is neither Jew nor Greek" (Galatians 3:28), then there is "neither Greek nor
            Jew".

            The knife cuts both ways.

            It's just as much a mistake for American converts to work up resentment against the
            Russians "and their ethnic preoccupations", as for Russians to work up resentment against
            American converts "and their presumption".

            > Bp Daniel: "many converts to Orthodoxy from other faiths, not of of
            > Russian descent at all, belong to our church, to whom the concept of
            > "returning to Russia" is not applicable at all ... If our church
            > submits to the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate, then those of us
            > and our sheep for whom this is unacceptable, would be left without a
            > church, which would contradict the main objective of all church rules"

            JRS: I think I know Bishop Daniel fairly well, because he was my main early teacher in the
            Orthodox faith, from the time I was in high school, through college until I entered
            Jordanville.

            I first met him on April 6, 1963, when I was 16, and he was still a Reader, iconographer
            and seminary graduate.

            I learned a very great deal from him and from his late mother, Elena Dimitrievna.

            Those who like to point out earlier writings by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff, should also read
            Bishop Daniel's letter to the other bishops, written in the 1990's: in which he called for
            reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate.

            One point he and his mother made to me early on, was that we should not pass judgment
            on the clergy of the Moscow Patriarchate in Russia, who were often confessors of the faith;
            the problem with the Patriarchate was not that it "lacked grace", but that its hierarchs
            could not (then) speak openly or act according to conscience.

            Another key point was that Orthodox Americans should seek, not to be different from all
            the other Orthodox, but rather, to be different from all the other Americans.

            His more recent misgivings about reconciliation seem based on the idea that ROCOR
            would lose its structure or its self-government, neither of which is going to happen.

            As for the place of Americans in ROCOR, I think it can only improve as relations are
            normalized with the rest of the Orthodox Church.

            We can still be "in communion" with those we disagree with: look at the degree of
            disagreement we see on the internet, when both "sides" belong to ROCOR!

            But the more we are part of a larger Church, the more balance and stability we have; and
            the less likely we are to fear that the Church administration is being taken over by
            Panteleimonites or by a Ludmilla Rosnianskaya.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • boulia_1
            ... stability we have; and ... being taken over by ... And another thing about that: where do all the revnitili think we re going to get priests and,
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
              <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              >>
              > But the more we are part of a larger Church, the more balance and
              stability we have; and
              > the less likely we are to fear that the Church administration is
              being taken over by
              > Panteleimonites or by a Ludmilla Rosnianskaya.
              >


              And another thing about that: where do all the revnitili think we're
              going to get priests and, especially, BISHOPS, if we stay secluded?

              Our Sobor is down to, what, a dozen bishops now? We can't find
              someone to take care of Canada nor South America... Our bishops are
              stretched thin, and there are PITIFULLY FEW qualified potential
              candidates among our tiny number of monks to replace them!!

              The more I think about it, the more I believe that there needs to be
              an ecumenical council that establishes a new patriarchate in the
              western hemisphere. The New World was unknown when canonical
              territories were created, and it's time for the Church (after 600
              years!) to catch up with history and create a canonical patriarchate
              based on territory, not ethnicity... it's a complex question, I
              know...

              Elizabeth
            • pr. Mark Gilstrap
              From: maestro_vg ... You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester (www.pomog.org), so he must be
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                violation of the list Guidelines.

                Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                pr Mark
              • frvictor@comcast.net
                Dear Fr. Mark, Could you please show one email from Fr. Vadim posted on any list of the past ten years where he ever suggested a HOCNA connection with those
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                  Dear Fr. Mark,
                  Could you please show one email from Fr. Vadim posted on any list of the past ten years where he ever suggested a HOCNA connection with those who are attacking the decision of our bishops to unify the Russian Church? You write: "you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile.." On what basis from anything Fr. Vadim has ever posted are you making such a suggestion?

                  In Christ,
                  Priest Victor Boldewskul
                  p.s. But it is true that HOCNA schismatics do post on this "synod" list.

                  -------------- Original message --------------
                  From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                  From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                  > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                  You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                  (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                  snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                  know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                  that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                  do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                  respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                  children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                  violation of the list Guidelines.

                  Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                  it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                  know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                  not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                  happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                  of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                  I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                  trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                  compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                  of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                  By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                  identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                  ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                  pr Mark




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kharaku@mac.com
                  why so that they can kick all the ethnics out and have a hot dogs apple pie chevy and tacos church?(thats what passes for culture in america and it aint really
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                    why so that they can kick all the ethnics out and have a hot dogs apple pie chevy and tacos church?(thats what passes for culture in america and it aint really culture).

                    what little culture the west has is based on everything opposed to orthodoxy
                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...>
                    Subj: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                    Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:02 am
                    Size: 3K
                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                    <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    > But the more we are part of a larger Church, the more balance and
                    stability we have; and
                    > the less likely we are to fear that the Church administration is
                    being taken over by
                    > Panteleimonites or by a Ludmilla Rosnianskaya.
                    >

                    And another thing about that: where do all the revnitili think we're
                    going to get priests and, especially, BISHOPS, if we stay secluded?

                    Our Sobor is down to, what, a dozen bishops now? We can't find
                    someone to take care of Canada nor South America... Our bishops are
                    stretched thin, and there are PITIFULLY FEW qualified potential
                    candidates among our tiny number of monks to replace them!!

                    The more I think about it, the more I believe that there needs to be
                    an ecumenical council that establishes a new patriarchate in the
                    western hemisphere. The New World was unknown when canonical
                    territories were created, and it's time for the Church (after 600
                    years!) to catch up with history and create a canonical patriarchate
                    based on territory, not ethnicity... it's a complex question, I
                    know...

                    Elizabeth



                    Messages in this topic (5) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic
                    Messages | Files | --- message truncated ---
                  • kharaku@mac.com
                    personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                      personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                      George Green

                      -----Original Message-----

                      From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                      Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                      Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                      Size: 2K
                      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                      From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                      > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                      You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                      (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                      snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                      know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                      that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                      do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                      respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                      children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                      violation of the list Guidelines.

                      Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                      it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                      know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                      not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                      happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                      of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                      I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                      trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                      compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                      of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                      By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                      identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                      ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                      pr Mark



                      Messages in this topic (6)
                    • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
                      I said Like some other clergy, you may... Oops, imprecision, sorry, read that as you might, like some others aka maybe ... but it simply is not the case
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                        I said
                        "Like some other clergy, you may..."

                        Oops, imprecision, sorry, read that as
                        "you might, like some others" aka "maybe"

                        "... but it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union
                        is a prideful know-more-than-the-bishops knave"

                        which refers directly to dVG's "they think they know better than our
                        First Hierarch met. Lavr and the Holy Synod". which appears to be a
                        insulting judgment - for which I did not see pvb demanding proof.

                        This is a public list, not a private e-mail between individuals,
                        which could legitimately be interpreted as personal. Everything I said
                        (even this) is meant to be directed to the List, to more than one
                        person i.e. "you all" as I started out my last post. If I had been
                        speaking only to one person I would have used private e-mail.

                        This was a general point about moderation of behaviour, not an
                        upbraid of an individual.

                        As it says in the Guidelines:

                        "Post to the LIST (to all members), not to an
                        individual. Personal mail should be private
                        mail.

                        " ... be careful about
                        uses of "you" and "your" in such replies,
                        since they can make the response appear to
                        be personal."

                        I fell short by using "You" too much. I did consider using "one" but
                        it didn't sound right.

                        My imprecision in language and the use of "you" not withstanding, the
                        point was to refrain from disputation on the basis of a person's
                        identity. We are not to be respecters of persons, and the truth of
                        what someone says does not depend on who they are.

                        "Speak to the truth of the facts, quality of
                        the premises, and logic of the conclusions
                        of the other participants, not to their person
                        (ad hominem). "

                        Nice diversion though - that seems to be the tactic de jure. Zero in
                        on grammar, imprecision of language, a person's identity,
                        whatever..., but by all means avoid speaking about the dead cat on
                        the table - which is that that certain clergy (not the bishops) seem
                        intent on driving away all who disagree with them. Part of this is
                        premised on an assumption that the opposition is just as black/white
                        and agenda-driven as oneself.

                        And this "with us" or "agin us" mentality is not at all anything new.
                        I felt compelled to raise the very same issue on the rocaclergy list
                        beginning in 2001, "as an appeal for restraint from an apparent
                        witchhunt of identifying and labeling enemies, especially by clergy."
                        "hurling a litany of insults...at people who are just trying to
                        understand what is going on."

                        Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole everyone. Not
                        everyone is one or the other, an enemy or a comrade, even if
                        sycophancy drives some to one extreme or the other.

                        After >5 years of the same old stuff I still say: Shame! Stidno!
                        The sarcasm one sees all over the internet lists is tearing more than
                        the flesh (the literal meaning) of individuals, it is attacking the
                        very fabric, and driving people away from the Church itself "which
                        would contradict the main objective of all church rules" as Bp Daniel
                        says.
                      • Archpriest David Moser
                        ... sing and read, and ... Peoria. ... joining it too... ... Rd Peoria, IL. ... Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as well.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Send a Russian-speaking priest to Peoria IL, along with someone to
                          sing and read, and
                          > there will be enough "new arrivals" from Russia to start a parish in
                          Peoria.
                          >
                          > And once there is a Russian Orthodox parish, Americans will start
                          joining it too...
                          >
                          > Now there is only All Saints Greek Orthodox Church, 1812 N Prospect
                          Rd Peoria, IL.
                          >

                          Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as
                          well. I visited there a year ago (my family lives in Peoria) and
                          spoke with the priest. He is a young Arab/American with roots in the
                          local community (family is well established there) and the parish is a
                          really good blend of Arabs and Americans (cradle and convert). Next
                          time I'm in town, I plan to visit again.

                          A/pr David Moser
                        • DDD
                          On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:51:18 -0000, Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:  And this with us or agin us mentality is not at all anything  new. I felt compelled to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                            On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:51:18 -0000, Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap wrote:
                             And this "with us" or "agin us" mentality is not at all anything
                             new. I felt compelled to raise the very same issue on the rocaclergy
                             list beginning in 2001, "as an appeal for restraint from an apparent
                             witchhunt of identifying and labeling enemies, especially by
                             clergy." "hurling a litany of insults...at people who are just
                             trying to understand what is going on."

                            DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

                            --Dimitra Dwelley
                          • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
                            ... Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria. She was aware of the Greek parish, but I don t think she knows about this. When
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                              <moserd@...> wrote:

                              > Actually there is also a very thriving Antiochian Mission in Peoria as
                              > well. I visited there a year ago (my family lives in Peoria)...Next
                              > time I'm in town, I plan to visit again.

                              Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria.
                              She was aware of the Greek parish, but I don't think she knows about
                              this. When visiting them over a week-end, we go to their ROCOR
                              parish, St Innocent in Wheaton, or to Vladimirova (east of Freeport).

                              prM
                            • Seraphim Patterson
                              ... This is so true. As I said on another list, had I not seem the miracles surrounding my late wife s illness and repose I would not even be Orthodox in name
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                > After >5 years of the same old stuff I still say: Shame! Stidno!
                                > The sarcasm one sees all over the internet lists is tearing more than
                                > the flesh (the literal meaning) of individuals, it is attacking the
                                > very fabric, and driving people away from the Church itself "which
                                > would contradict the main objective of all church rules" as Bp Daniel
                                > says.


                                This is so true. As I said on another list, had I not seem the miracles surrounding my late wife's illness and repose I would not even be Orthodox in name right now. Never would I believe that the true Church could be so filled with meanness or even outright ruthlessness.

                                Seraphim
                              • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
                                ... pro-union or even the derogatory pro-unia labels? Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in Utica MY, and Instructor of
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:

                                  > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                                  "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

                                  Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                                  Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                                  on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                                  the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                                  and CU.

                                  I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                                  is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                                  insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                                  cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                                  everyone")

                                  One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                                  comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                                  is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                                  our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                                  endure.

                                  prM
                                • Seraphim Patterson
                                  ... Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--on every point above. Seraphim
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                    ---- Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                                    > "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?
                                    >
                                    > Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                                    > Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                                    > on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                                    > the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                                    > and CU.
                                    >
                                    > I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                                    > is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                                    > insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                                    > cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                                    > everyone")
                                    >
                                    > One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                                    > comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                                    > is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                                    > our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                                    > endure.
                                    >
                                    > prM


                                    Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--on every point above.

                                    Seraphim
                                  • Mike Woodson
                                    Now this post deals with the middle way we need to hear more about. The one that is to neither extreme, and the one which slows down to listen, to consider,
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                      Now this post deals with the middle way we need to hear more about.
                                      The one that is to neither extreme, and the one which slows down to
                                      listen, to consider, and not to be rushed by temporal considerations
                                      into actions that do not add up to dispassionate actions.

                                      As for exercising patience and waiting longer until Moscow's old and
                                      new Soviet authorities clear out of positions of ill-gotten influence
                                      by which they go on hurting others, I do not see that as an extreme
                                      opposition to faux-union, just prudent. And the people who hold this
                                      view that I know do not act in the extreme, however usually try their
                                      best to hold to the merits.

                                      I am likely the most extreme in communication among them, with
                                      passions of anger and frustration in my soul struggling for voice
                                      against my reason which should better explain what my conscience is
                                      alerted to as falsehood, i.e. false pretexts from the MP. There are
                                      many better qualified to voice the opposition to the falseness, and I
                                      can only hope I have not messed anything up with regard to bringing
                                      out the whole truth because of the way I have posted.

                                      Best,
                                      Michael

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap"
                                      <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I said
                                      > "Like some other clergy, you may..."
                                      >
                                      > Oops, imprecision, sorry, read that as
                                      > "you might, like some others" aka "maybe"
                                      >
                                      > "... but it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union
                                      > is a prideful know-more-than-the-bishops knave"
                                      >
                                      > which refers directly to dVG's "they think they know better than our
                                      > First Hierarch met. Lavr and the Holy Synod". which appears to be a
                                      > insulting judgment - for which I did not see pvb demanding proof.
                                      >
                                      > This is a public list, not a private e-mail between individuals,
                                      > which could legitimately be interpreted as personal. Everything I said
                                      > (even this) is meant to be directed to the List, to more than one
                                      > person i.e. "you all" as I started out my last post. If I had been
                                      > speaking only to one person I would have used private e-mail.
                                      >
                                      > This was a general point about moderation of behaviour, not an
                                      > upbraid of an individual.
                                      >
                                      > As it says in the Guidelines:
                                      >
                                      > "Post to the LIST (to all members), not to an
                                      > individual. Personal mail should be private
                                      > mail.
                                      >
                                      > " ... be careful about
                                      > uses of "you" and "your" in such replies,
                                      > since they can make the response appear to
                                      > be personal."
                                      >
                                      > I fell short by using "You" too much. I did consider using "one" but
                                      > it didn't sound right.
                                      >
                                      > My imprecision in language and the use of "you" not withstanding, the
                                      > point was to refrain from disputation on the basis of a person's
                                      > identity. We are not to be respecters of persons, and the truth of
                                      > what someone says does not depend on who they are.
                                      >
                                      > "Speak to the truth of the facts, quality of
                                      > the premises, and logic of the conclusions
                                      > of the other participants, not to their person
                                      > (ad hominem). "
                                      >
                                      > Nice diversion though - that seems to be the tactic de jure. Zero in
                                      > on grammar, imprecision of language, a person's identity,
                                      > whatever..., but by all means avoid speaking about the dead cat on
                                      > the table - which is that that certain clergy (not the bishops) seem
                                      > intent on driving away all who disagree with them. Part of this is
                                      > premised on an assumption that the opposition is just as black/white
                                      > and agenda-driven as oneself.
                                      >
                                      > And this "with us" or "agin us" mentality is not at all anything new.
                                      > I felt compelled to raise the very same issue on the rocaclergy list
                                      > beginning in 2001, "as an appeal for restraint from an apparent
                                      > witchhunt of identifying and labeling enemies, especially by clergy."
                                      > "hurling a litany of insults...at people who are just trying to
                                      > understand what is going on."
                                      >
                                      > Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole everyone. Not
                                      > everyone is one or the other, an enemy or a comrade, even if
                                      > sycophancy drives some to one extreme or the other.
                                      >
                                      > After >5 years of the same old stuff I still say: Shame! Stidno!
                                      > The sarcasm one sees all over the internet lists is tearing more than
                                      > the flesh (the literal meaning) of individuals, it is attacking the
                                      > very fabric, and driving people away from the Church itself "which
                                      > would contradict the main objective of all church rules" as Bp Daniel
                                      > says.
                                      >
                                    • frvictor@comcast.net
                                      We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list such as you are red as a beat. But don t worry, such Macarthyite tactics will not stop the
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                        We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list such as "you are red as a beat." But don't worry, such Macarthyite tactics will not stop the faithful from defending the conciliar decisions of our Church.

                                        The complaint, however, dear moderator, is not over the personal insults which you repeatedly permit on this list, but the attacks on our Church, on the coniliar decisions of our Church and on our bishops which you permit. You say we should just endure, yet in all the times you chose to jump in, it is over Fr. Vadim's very mild post.

                                        I think this all proves, once again, that this list has hit a dead end, and it is time to put it out of its misery. On the other hand, if it allows a forum for those who think they are smarter than our bishops to vent, and in the process feel they are making somce difference, then I suppose it serves some purpose.

                                        Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                        -------------- Original message --------------
                                        From: "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <fr.mark@...>
                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:

                                        > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                                        "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?

                                        Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish in
                                        Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in his letter
                                        on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon of Light", uses
                                        the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he then abbreviates as PU
                                        and CU.

                                        I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in English this
                                        is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought of Pro-Union as an
                                        insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real, but
                                        cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                                        everyone")

                                        One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a departing
                                        comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So you see, there
                                        is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain when it is
                                        our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often, just
                                        endure.

                                        prM




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                        ... JRS: There is balm in Gilead.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 30, 2006
                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Seraphim Patterson <serafim@...> wrote:

                                          > ---- Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap <fr.mark@...> wrote:

                                          > > I am pro-union in a very real, but
                                          > > cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to pigeonhole
                                          > > everyone")

                                          > Once again, you took the words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more--
                                          > on every point above.

                                          > Seraphim

                                          JRS: There is balm in Gilead.
                                        • Archpriest David Moser
                                          ... Memory fails, I ll have to recollect a bit, but off the top its on Sheridan, just south of Loucks. The Church is in a building behind a tailor shop. I
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
                                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap"
                                            <fr.mark@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Where is that mission? My daughter and her husband live in Peoria.
                                            >

                                            Memory fails, I'll have to recollect a bit, but off the top its on
                                            Sheridan, just south of Loucks. The Church is in a building behind a
                                            tailor shop. I *think* the priest is a Fr Habib. I have the
                                            directions and contact info on my other computer at home, but I can't
                                            get at it until after the first of the year.

                                            A/pr David Moser
                                          • Basil Yakimov
                                            Fr Victor, Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
                                              Fr Victor,

                                              Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                                              unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra


                                              PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..


                                              PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...



                                              kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                                              George Green

                                              -----Original Message-----

                                              From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                                              Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                                              Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                                              Size: 2K
                                              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                              From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                                              > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                                              You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                                              (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                                              snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                                              know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                                              that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                                              do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                                              respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                                              children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                                              violation of the list Guidelines.

                                              Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                                              it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                                              know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                                              not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                                              happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                                              of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                                              I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                                              trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                                              compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                                              of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                                              By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                                              identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                                              ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                                              pr Mark



                                              Messages in this topic (6)





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                                            • frvictor@comcast.net
                                              Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
                                                Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this Macarthyism or is this a Soviet tactic?
                                                Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                                -------------- Original message --------------
                                                From: Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...>
                                                Fr Victor,

                                                Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                                                unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra


                                                PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..


                                                PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...



                                                kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                                                George Green

                                                -----Original Message-----

                                                From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                                                Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                                                Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                                                Size: 2K
                                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                                From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                                                > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                                                You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                                                (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                                                snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                                                know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                                                that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                                                do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                                                respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                                                children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                                                violation of the list Guidelines.

                                                Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                                                it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                                                know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                                                not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                                                happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                                                of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                                                I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                                                trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                                                compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                                                of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                                                By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                                                identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                                                ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                                                pr Mark



                                                Messages in this topic (6)





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                                              • gene703
                                                Senator Joseph McCarthy was a good man. He was aggressively investigating claims that there were Communist and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 31, 2006
                                                  Senator Joseph McCarthy was a good man. He was aggressively investigating claims that there were Communist and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal government back in the 50's. No wonder his name is used as a pejorative by pro red church folks on this list. I say it is high time for a "mcarthyite" commie hunt, this time in the Russian Orthodox Church.

                                                  Gene T


                                                  frvictor@... wrote:
                                                  Below is a typical Macarthyite tactic. Protodeacon Basil knows very well that I never mentioned the name or writing of Father Nikita Grigoriev. Is this Macarthyism or is this a Soviet tactic?
                                                  Priest Victor Boldewskul

                                                  -------------- Original message --------------
                                                  From: Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...>
                                                  Fr Victor,

                                                  Fr Vadim does know I have nothing against him but as far as the post soviet MP it is not for me - so please do not attack Father Nikita Grigoriev or any one else because you are pro soviet MP....

                                                  unworthy protodeacon Basil from Canberra

                                                  PS, I understand some post soviet staretz is predicting the CUPOLA coming down on the UNIATE signing.... this has nothing to do with me but I still think it is bloody foolish aka the Aussie way I mean the Uniate signing!..

                                                  PS I have never had any HOCNA links but Father John S..'s MP diatribes makes me ill!...

                                                  kharaku@... wrote: personally I only find those who post links to HOCNA web sites to be likely HOCNA members. That happens to be a fair amoun of the anti union folks. Also strangely folks who've posted such links refuse to say what parish they attend.

                                                  George Green

                                                  -----Original Message-----

                                                  From: "pr. Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
                                                  Subj: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Revniteli Society of Metropolitan Anthony of Blessed Memory
                                                  Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:28 am
                                                  Size: 2K
                                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com

                                                  From: "maestro_vg" <diakon@...>

                                                  > Again, posts by "Mike Woodson", Peter Bushonow, "gene703" and his so-

                                                  You all know Peter Bushunow (a Russian) from the amazing parish in Rochester
                                                  (www.pomog.org), so he must be real, but why do you insist on applying
                                                  snigger quotes around the names of those with whom you disagree, but do not
                                                  know? as if they have no right to express an opinion. It is the case
                                                  that there actually are individuals who *are* members of our Church, but who
                                                  do not agree with the impending union. Can we not show them a modicum of
                                                  respect - at least sufficient to acknowledge their existence as real
                                                  children of God. To do otherwise smacks of ad hominem - and that is a
                                                  violation of the list Guidelines.

                                                  Like some other clergy, you may see a Panteleimonite in every woodpile, but
                                                  it simply is not the case that everyone who is contra-union is a prideful
                                                  know-more-than-the-bishops knave, or HOCNA member. Most of these folks do
                                                  not dare post, because they are made to feel that way by what they see
                                                  happening to others who do dare post. They tell me that it reminds them
                                                  of Soviet tactics, and that certain ubiquitous clergy in fact scare them.
                                                  I'm sure that is not the impression you would want to leave on those you are
                                                  trying to convince. Thankfully most of the bishops do show tolerance and
                                                  compassion, and the desire to maintain *all* the flock, with no intention
                                                  of disposing of naysayers of conscience as "collateral loss."

                                                  By the way, the biggest offender of the use of a large number of false
                                                  identities over many years on the various Orthodox lists is, regrettably, a
                                                  ROCOR clergyman - and not one with whom you would likely disagree.

                                                  pr Mark

                                                  Messages in this topic (6)

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                                                • michael nikitin
                                                  Does Fr.Victor consider the statements below from our new Russian Martyrs, previous hierarch s and Synod Resolution, attacks on our Church? Michael N
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jan 1, 2007
                                                    Does Fr.Victor consider the statements below from our new Russian
                                                    Martyrs, previous hierarch's and Synod Resolution, attacks on our
                                                    Church?

                                                    Michael N


                                                    http://www.stvladimirs.ca/library/concerning-patriarch-pimen.html
                                                    "All of the elections of Patriarchs in Moscow, beginning in 1943,
                                                    are invalid on the basis of the 30th Canon of the Holy Apostles
                                                    and the 3rd Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council"


                                                    "We will not give the Church as a sacrifice over
                                                    to the mercy of the BETRAYERS OF GOD and foul
                                                    politicians and agents of atheism and destruction.
                                                    And by this protest we do NOT cut ourselves off from
                                                    her, but WE cut THEM off from US and boldly say: not
                                                    only have we NOT gone away and do NOT go away and will
                                                    NEVER go away from the bosom of the TRUE Orthodox
                                                    Church, but those who are not with us and for us but
                                                    are against us we consider Her ENEMIES, BETRAYERS, AND
                                                    MURDERERS. It is not WE who go into schism by not
                                                    submitting to Metropolitan Sergius, but rather YOU who
                                                    are obedient to him go with him into THE ABYSS OF THE
                                                    CHURCH'S CONDEMNATION.---Saint Joseph of Petrograd,
                                                    1928"


                                                    Excerpts from St.Metr.Philaret's letter to fr.Victor Potapov.
                                                    [..."we receive the clergymen from Moscow not as ones possessing
                                                    grace, but as ones receiving it by the very act of union. But to
                                                    recognize the church of the evil-doers as the bearer and
                                                    repository of grace, that we cannot do, of course. For outside
                                                    of Orthodoxy there is no grace; and the Soviet church has
                                                    deprived itself of grace."]

                                                    What then is the Soviet church? Archimandrite Constantine has
                                                    often and insistently stated that the most horrible thing that
                                                    the God-hating regime has done in Russia is the creation of the
                                                    Soviet Church, which the Bolsheviks presented to the people as
                                                    the true Church, having driven the genuine Orthodox
                                                    Church into the catacombs or into the concentration camps.

                                                    This pseudo-church has been twice anathematized."



                                                    At this time the then Archbishop Vitaly (Ustinov) of Montreal
                                                    concurred totally with Metropolitan Philaret's evaluation. In a
                                                    sympathetic yet uncompromising article which he published in the
                                                    August 1980 *Parish Newsletter* of his St. Nicholas Cathedral in
                                                    Montreal... he wrote: "... And in this good, urgent impulse of
                                                    ours we somehow completely forgot a very important fact which no
                                                    power can erase from life ... Father Dimitry forgot, as we all
                                                    did, this fact which cannot be wiped away by time or by
                                                    life. And this fact is the Soviet Moscow Patriarchate. We are in
                                                    no way mistaken when we call the Patriarchate Soviet ... Such a
                                                    corrupt, anti-canonical organism was not able, of course, to
                                                    inspire Father Dimitry to follow the way of confession, much less
                                                    of martyrdom, to the end. Father Dimitry's whole mistake is found
                                                    in the fact that, although he often condemned and exposed his
                                                    Soviet hierarchs, still he never separated himself from the
                                                    Patriarchate as an organism, but even defended it as his own
                                                    legal authority."

                                                    http://www.monasterypress.com/statements.html
                                                    under * article * section. Letter to a priest concerning the
                                                    origin and status of the Moscow Patriarchate By Metropolitan
                                                    Vitaly ..."the Moscow Patriarchate has lost the Apostolic
                                                    Succession, which is to say, that it has lost the Grace of
                                                    Christ."






                                                    --- frvictor@... wrote:

                                                    > We have been enduring, tolerating such insults on this list
                                                    > such as "you are red as a beat." But don't worry, such
                                                    > Macarthyite tactics will not stop the faithful from defending
                                                    > the conciliar decisions of our Church.
                                                    >
                                                    > The complaint, however, dear moderator, is not over the
                                                    > personal insults which you repeatedly permit on this list, but
                                                    > the attacks on our Church, on the coniliar decisions of our
                                                    > Church and on our bishops which you permit. You say we should
                                                    > just endure, yet in all the times you chose to jump in, it is
                                                    > over Fr. Vadim's very mild post.
                                                    >
                                                    > I think this all proves, once again, that this list has hit a
                                                    > dead end, and it is time to put it out of its misery. On the
                                                    > other hand, if it allows a forum for those who think they are
                                                    > smarter than our bishops to vent, and in the process feel they
                                                    > are making somce difference, then I suppose it serves some
                                                    > purpose.
                                                    >
                                                    > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                                                    >
                                                    > -------------- Original message --------------
                                                    > From: "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <fr.mark@...>
                                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...>
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > DD: And yet, how many times have we had to endure the term
                                                    > "pro-union" or even the derogatory "pro-unia" labels?
                                                    >
                                                    > Father Nikita Grigoriev, Rector of St John of Kronstadt parish
                                                    > in Utica MY, and Instructor of Apologetics at Jordanville, in
                                                    his letter on the history of church relations, "ROCA, The Beacon
                                                    of Light", uses the terms Pro-Union and Contra-Union which he
                                                    then abbreviates as PU and CU.
                                                    >
                                                    > I don't know what the original Russian terms were, but in
                                                    > English this is decidedly a zinger. Otherwise I never thought
                                                    of Pro-Union as an
                                                    > insult. But maybe that's because I am pro-union in a very real,
                                                    > but cautious, way. ("Life is not so simple as to be able to
                                                    > pigeonhole everyone")
                                                    >
                                                    > One could also interpret the english abbreviation "CU" as a
                                                    > departing comment, and thereby turn it into an insult too. So
                                                    you see, there
                                                    > is always a balance, but we only seem to wince and complain
                                                    > when it is
                                                    > our ox being gored. Maybe we should instead try to, more often,
                                                    > just endure.
                                                    >
                                                    > prM
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                    >


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                                                  • Mike Woodson
                                                    We need neither McCarthyism (aka agents provocateurs) or communist sympathizers, both extremes of which tend to bring out the other. I don t think it is a
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Jan 2, 2007
                                                      We need neither McCarthyism (aka agents provocateurs) or communist
                                                      sympathizers, both extremes of which tend to bring out the other.

                                                      I don't think it is a phenomenon of personal stereotype. I think it is
                                                      a phenomenon that grows out of the divisive use of lies such as have
                                                      been sprinkled into our ears by the MP.

                                                      That has been the purpose of that organization since it gave itself to
                                                      the Soviets.
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