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[orthodox-synod] Re: The newspapers

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  • Carol A Surgant
    ... Crusades, the Inquisition and other faults of the past. ... Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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      > > On Sunday, the pope plans to express regret for the
      Crusades, the Inquisition and other "faults of the past."
      > >
      >

      Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the
      genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox Christians
      during WWII and the actions of the Ustasi?
      -- or do we have to wait for all the perpetrators to be
      dead 1000 years before he can apologize?

      I haven't heard anyone comment on this -- was this
      Sunday specifically chosen because of the signifance
      for Orthodox to ask forgiveness on this day -- (or is
      there also a forgiveness sunday in the roman church?

      Forgive me a sinner,

      Carol


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    • Robert Miller
      In all the years I was Roman Catholic before discovering Orthodox Christianity, I never heard of any Forgiveness service at all. So that is why I m simply
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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        In all the years I was Roman Catholic before discovering Orthodox
        Christianity, I never heard of any Forgiveness service at all. So that is
        why I'm simply quite skeptical about this grand gesture Pope John Paul II
        and some R. C. leaders elsewhere is making. It seems to me he can want
        nothing more than to show that he can do things that look Orthodox/orthodox
        too. This gesture certainly has a Papist hook in it somehow. And let there
        be no doubt, any Orthodox leader who casts doubt on the Pope's intentions
        will certainly be stoned for ingratitude and 'lacking love.'

        Joseph Miller
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Carol A Surgant" <casurgant@...>
        To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        Cc: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 9:39 AM
        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The newspapers


        >
        > > > On Sunday, the pope plans to express regret for the
        > Crusades, the Inquisition and other "faults of the past."
        > > >
        > >
        >
        > Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the
        > genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox Christians
        > during WWII and the actions of the Ustasi?
        > -- or do we have to wait for all the perpetrators to be
        > dead 1000 years before he can apologize?
        >
        > I haven't heard anyone comment on this -- was this
        > Sunday specifically chosen because of the signifance
        > for Orthodox to ask forgiveness on this day -- (or is
        > there also a forgiveness sunday in the roman church?
        >
        > Forgive me a sinner,
        >
        > Carol
        >
        >
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      • Robert Miller
        And besides that, it will certainly be interesting to see whether the Serb genocide is mentioned in the Apology. Thanks to Carol for pointing this out.
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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          And besides that, it will certainly be interesting to see whether the Serb
          genocide is mentioned in the 'Apology.'
          Thanks to Carol for pointing this out.

          Joseph Miller

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Carol A Surgant" <casurgant@...>
          To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
          Cc: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 9:39 AM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The newspapers


          >
          > > > On Sunday, the pope plans to express regret for the
          > Crusades, the Inquisition and other "faults of the past."
          > > >
          > >
          >
          > Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the
          > genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox Christians
          > during WWII and the actions of the Ustasi?
          > -- or do we have to wait for all the perpetrators to be
          > dead 1000 years before he can apologize?
          >
          > I haven't heard anyone comment on this -- was this
          > Sunday specifically chosen because of the signifance
          > for Orthodox to ask forgiveness on this day -- (or is
          > there also a forgiveness sunday in the roman church?
          >
          > Forgive me a sinner,
          >
          > Carol
          >
          >
          > ________________________________________________________________
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        • Sandra Thompson
          There was no forgiveness day when I was in the Roman church. I don t see why the Pope should aplolgize for something he didn t do. It s kind of like the
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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            There was no forgiveness day when I was in the Roman church. I don't see
            why the Pope should aplolgize for something he didn't do. It's kind of like
            the Clinton apology for US past war deeds.
            >
            > Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the
            > genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox Christians
            > during WWII and the actions of the Ustasi?
            > -- or do we have to wait for all the perpetrators to be
            > dead 1000 years before he can apologize?
            >
            > I haven't heard anyone comment on this -- was this
            > Sunday specifically chosen because of the signifance
            > for Orthodox to ask forgiveness on this day -- (or is
            > there also a forgiveness sunday in the roman church?
            >
            > Forgive me a sinner,
            >
            > Carol
            >
            >
            > ________________________________________________________________
            > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
            > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
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          • Robert Miller
            If the Pope is apologizing for what happened in 1204 in Constantinople, and for the Inquisition of the western Middle Ages and for the Roman part of 1054, for
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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              If the Pope is apologizing for what happened in 1204 in Constantinople, and
              for the Inquisition of the western Middle Ages and for the Roman part of
              1054, for not helping the Christian East in 1439, and whatever else, he is
              already apologizing for things the Roman Catholic Church as sponsored, but
              over which he had not control of course. As to the Serbian massacres, he
              was already a Roman Catholic clergyman. The Balamand Statement of 1993
              which he engineered does not suggest he feels overly sympathetic to Orthodox
              Churches. But let us remember that Patriarchs of Constantinople have
              already referred to the Pope as "Our Elder Brother," and the Eastern and
              Western Churches have called themselves the 'two lungs of the Church.' So
              let us watch warily to see what really happens. We owe them Christian love,
              but we dare not give them our submission.

              Joseph Miller
              As to what he will really say on Sunday, why don't we just wait to see what
              it is?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sandra Thompson" <sandra@...>
              To: <orthodox-synod@egroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2000 1:00 PM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: The newspapers


              > There was no forgiveness day when I was in the Roman church. I don't see
              > why the Pope should aplolgize for something he didn't do. It's kind of
              like
              > the Clinton apology for US past war deeds.
              > >
              > > Is the pope also going to ask forgiveness for the
              > > genocide of more than 700,000 Orthodox Christians
              > > during WWII and the actions of the Ustasi?
              > > -- or do we have to wait for all the perpetrators to be
              > > dead 1000 years before he can apologize?
              > >
              > > I haven't heard anyone comment on this -- was this
              > > Sunday specifically chosen because of the signifance
              > > for Orthodox to ask forgiveness on this day -- (or is
              > > there also a forgiveness sunday in the roman church?
              > >
              > > Forgive me a sinner,
              > >
              > > Carol
              > >
              > >
              > > ________________________________________________________________
              > > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
              > > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
              > > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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              > >
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            • Michael Malloy
              It wouldn t hurt for Clinton to start by offering an apology for HIS deeds! ... Michael Malloy (Not related to anybody named Mallory) Prove me, O God, and
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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                It wouldn't hurt for Clinton to start by offering an apology for HIS deeds!


                >There was no forgiveness day when I was in the Roman church. I don't see
                >why the Pope should aplolgize for something he didn't do. It's kind of like
                >the Clinton apology for US past war deeds.

                Michael Malloy (Not related to anybody named Mallory)

                Prove me, O God, and know my heart;
                examine me and know my paths.
                And see if the way of iniquity be in me,
                and guide me in the way everlasting.

                - Psalm 139:23-24

                "Blazhen muzh, izhe nye ide na sovyet nechestivykh..."
                - Psalm 1
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Michael Malloy (malloy.2@...) (614) 292-2319
                Ohio State University Libraries
                Music and Dance Library - Room 166 Sullivant Hall
                1813 North High Street, Columbus OH 43210
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              • LJames6034@aol.com
                Whose church does the pope mean? This reminds me of the time when one of my theses was rejected for publication in the Antiochian magazine, by Metropolitan
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 11, 2000
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                  Whose church does the pope mean? This reminds me of the time when one of my
                  theses was rejected for publication in the Antiochian magazine, by
                  Metropolitan PHILIP, even though he was intrigued by it. I was told he was
                  "afraid 'they' would come bomb the house."

                  "Whose house?" I asked.

                  "Why, his house, of course."

                  In the same way: The pope is apologizing to those who are turned off my his
                  church, not to those outside the Catholic Church---who would, in fact,
                  include him!


                  Father Andrew (the one in Ohio)
                • Wilibrad@aol.com
                  We owe them Christian love, but we dare not give them submission. That is a quote that should be inscribed on the hearts of all Orthodox. The popes, since
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 12, 2000
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                    "We owe them Christian love, but we dare not give them submission."
                    That is a quote that should be inscribed on the hearts of all Orthodox. The
                    popes, since Unam Sanctam, in the Middle Ages, see themselves as THE power
                    over all the earth. It is that simple. Many modernists have no problem with
                    that; those of us in the traditionalist arm of the Church rightly should. Our
                    Faith is at stake, lest we do submit. God forbid!
                    Brothers ans sister, on this day I ask you forgiveness.
                    Reader Stephen
                  • LJames6034@aol.com
                    Michael, One of the saints said: I am worse than a dog. A dog is always loving and does not judge. Forgiveness must always include asking for forgiveness,
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 12, 2000
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                      Michael,

                      One of the saints said: "I am worse than a dog. A dog is always loving and
                      does not judge."

                      Forgiveness must always include asking for forgiveness, as you suggest.

                      I recall when, years ago, I had a letter in "Dear Abby." It was intended to
                      be an amusing swipe at those who want to call everyone "Reverend."

                      I said: "Protestant ministers should be called 'Mr." unless they have
                      doctorates. In which case, they should be called 'Dr.' Priests are always
                      called 'Father.' I don't know what we should call the new Episcopal
                      priestesses. How about 'mother'."

                      Abby replied: "It will never fly in Peoria."

                      Abby later published a letter from a Lutheran ministeress. She said:
                      "Father James, I forgive you for not loving me."

                      I responded to her, privately "You cannot forgive me for loving you. I do
                      not repent. Even God cannot forgive what is not repented, and I cannot
                      repent for something I have not done. I CANNOT love you. I don't even know
                      you! See why women should not be made clergypersons?"

                      One must not mistake Republican politics for the Holy Orthodox Catholic
                      Church.


                      Father Andrew (who is in the same city as you, as I recall)
                    • DCNDIMITRI@aol.com
                      Glory to our Saviour, Jesus Christ! i, a wretched sinner beg your forgiveness. i spent the first twelve years of my education in a catholic school. Never have
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 16, 2000
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                        Glory to our Saviour, Jesus Christ!

                        i, a wretched sinner beg your forgiveness.

                        i spent the first twelve years of my education in a catholic school. Never
                        have i heard of a catholic forgiveness sunday. However, this week for the
                        first time, i heard this week referred to as pardon week.

                        >We owe them Christian love, but we dare not give them our submission.>

                        Well put Joseph.

                        Anyone allowing themselves to be referred to as the vicar of Christ, needs to
                        be kept at a distance. If Apostle Peter is considered the first pope,
                        remember how he asked for the cross to be turned upside down, knowing that he
                        is not worthy to suffer the same death as our Saviour, therefore,
                        annihilating any possibility of the reference to as the vicar of Christ.
                        This should be the example for all the following popes.

                        In desperate need of your prayers, i am,

                        yours in Christ,
                        the unworthy and sinful
                        deacon dimitri
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