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Re: Old Calendar vs New Calendar

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  • James Baglien
    ... from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don t think it happens. A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with the American
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:
      >
      > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
      from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.

      A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
      the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
      rescinded by our bishops.

      Consequently, whereas with respect to most modernist jurisdictions we
      are, de jure, in communion even though we refrain from concelebration,
      in the case of the OCA, we are, technically speaking, "not in communion."

      These things may change in the wake of reestablishing eucharistic
      communion between the RC-MP and the ROCOR, but one should refrain from
      assuming that anything will be "automatic." As our hierarchs have
      stressed, the process of reconciliation is an *internal* matter of the
      Russian Church. Relationships with other Local Churches and their
      exarchates will be determined independently.

      in IC XC,

      Priest James Baglien
      Corvallis, Oregon
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: I don t think that was the original question. As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that ROCOR was such a
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "James Baglien" <jbgln@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@ wrote:
        > >
        > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
        > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.
        >
        > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
        > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
        > rescinded by our bishops.

        JRS: I don't think that was the original question.

        As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that
        ROCOR was such a jurisdiction for almost half a century.

        Archbishop Anthony of Geneva issued a Ukase to his clergy, about concelebration with the
        new calendar ROCOR Romanian parishes in Western Europe.

        They were allowed to concelebrate on a Sunday or a feast that was the same in both
        calendars (e.g. Ascension Day), but not on any feast day that would be repeated 13 days
        later in the Julian computation.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • morechoff@aol.com
        Thanks Father John! Appreciate the feedback. Good to learn these things. So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
          Thanks Father John! Appreciate the feedback. Good to learn these things.

          So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the Gregorian calendar), it would be on feast days that are the same in both calendars? Can a priest serve at other times? Is Archbishops Anthony's Ukase still in effect?

          I just wonder how the OCA does it today. It would seem that Metropolitan Herman and others (e.g. Bishop Nikolai) would be serving in parishes that follow either the Julian or Gregorian calendar.

          The Paris Exarchate at the has the same issue. Saint Alexander Nevsky on rue Daru uses Julian calendar in the main church and Gregorian in the crypt (lower church). I would imagine Archbishop Gabriel serves upstairs and downstairs.

          Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: vrevjrs@...
          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 2:05 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Old Calendar vs New Calendar


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "James Baglien" <jbgln@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@ wrote:
          > >
          > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
          > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.
          >
          > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
          > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
          > rescinded by our bishops.

          JRS: I don't think that was the original question.

          As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that
          ROCOR was such a jurisdiction for almost half a century.

          Archbishop Anthony of Geneva issued a Ukase to his clergy, about concelebration with the
          new calendar ROCOR Romanian parishes in Western Europe.

          They were allowed to concelebrate on a Sunday or a feast that was the same in both
          calendars (e.g. Ascension Day), but not on any feast day that would be repeated 13 days
          later in the Julian computation.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael nikitin
          So they ll lift all the Ukaz s , Declarations, proclamations, etc... and say it s O.K. They did it with the MP. They ll unite and the people will either leave
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
            So they'll lift all the Ukaz's , Declarations, proclamations,
            etc... and say it's O.K. They did it with the MP.

            They'll unite and the people will either leave or stay, but where
            will they go?...the bishops don't appear to care.

            Michael N


            --- James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:

            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:
            > >
            > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR
            > priest
            > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it
            > happens.
            >
            > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer
            > with
            > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not
            > been
            > rescinded by our bishops.
            >
            > Consequently, whereas with respect to most modernist
            > jurisdictions we
            > are, de jure, in communion even though we refrain from
            > concelebration,
            > in the case of the OCA, we are, technically speaking, "not in
            > communion."
            >
            > These things may change in the wake of reestablishing
            > eucharistic
            > communion between the RC-MP and the ROCOR, but one should
            > refrain from
            > assuming that anything will be "automatic." As our hierarchs
            > have
            > stressed, the process of reconciliation is an *internal* matter
            > of the
            > Russian Church. Relationships with other Local Churches and
            > their
            > exarchates will be determined independently.
            >
            > in IC XC,
            >
            > Priest James Baglien
            > Corvallis, Oregon
            >
            >
            >




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          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: Of course, ROCOR no longer has its former new calendar dioceses (there once were 4 such) or parishes, so that is all history now. However, there are
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 2, 2006
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:

              > So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the
              >Gregorian calendar), it would be on feast days that are the same in both calendars? Can a
              >priest serve at other times? Is Archbishops Anthony's Ukase still in effect?

              JRS: Of course, ROCOR no longer has its former new calendar dioceses (there once were 4
              such) or parishes, so that is all history now.

              However, there are "divergent menologia" even on the Julian reckoning. For example, the
              Greeks keep St. Catherine's day on Nov. 25, St. Clement on Nov. 24; the Russians have it
              the other way around.

              If one were to celebrate in a Russian parish on Nov. 24 OS, and then in a Greek parish that
              followed the Old Calendar on Nov. 25 OS (as for example in Jerusalem), or vice-versa, then
              one would have the same day's observances twice.

              And then, a number of Saints have multiple feast days: e.g. St. John the Baptist, certain
              Apostles, St. Nicholas of Myra, St. Alexander Nevsky, and many others.

              In the end, I do not think these differences ought to be an insuperable obstacle.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
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