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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: The Vanishing Russians Parts I-III: What Responsibility Has the MP Taken?

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  • V. Boitchenko
    Mike, First of all, I must say I am amazed at the amount of text you produce in your posts. I work five days a week and I really have no time for this. I
    Message 1 of 22 , Nov 1, 2006
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      Mike,

      First of all, I must say I am amazed at the amount of text you produce in your posts. I work five days a week and I really have no time for this. I apologize.

      You must agree that if the author is biased a certain way then even if the information is factually true, the conclusions drawn from it are most likely to be biased at best, if not entirely false. You must also understand that half or incomplete truth is nonetheless truth. To be frank with you, I don't think there is anything in those articles that I don't already know. It is only a matter where the author puts the accents. Russia is not an ideal society. I know that. I am aware of the problems. However, I don't see how a church that was persecuted for over 70 years is now, all of a sudden, guilty of all the social, political and demographic problems in the Russian society. I don't see how it would be spiritually beneficial for me to read more Russophobic ravings, get aggravated and try to argue with author. I am also under impression that you are preoccupied with Russian politics, while the path of the Church is really beyond politics. We are not seeking unity with the Russian government but with the Orthodox Church in Russia.

      vb


      >Viatcheslav, I would take the opposite approach. Read the reports and then cross
      >check the factual representations with other sources. I did that. By
      >the comments that immediately came out of the usual corners, I could
      >tell that they were not made having carefully read the reports or
      >checked on the data referred to in them...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Mike Woodson
      Dear Rev. Fr. John Shaw: Please see responses to your representations below each of them. ... ... Rather than engaging in false analogies
      Message 2 of 22 , Nov 1, 2006
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        Dear Rev. Fr. John Shaw:

        Please see responses to your representations below each of them.


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
        <singingmountains@>
        > wrote:
        >
        > Fr. John Shaw suggested that because the woman reporter who wrote
        > the LA Times series was named "Kim Murphy" that was somehow
        > suspicious. He also assumed that because she was not Orthodox, she
        > might not know anything about the Church. Well, you don't have to
        > know much about the Church to report on the realities in Russia.
        >
        > JRS: You don't have to know anything about the Orthodox faith, or
        > about the history of the Balkans, or even the details of current
        > events there, to "report on the realities of Serbia":
        > for years, Western journalists demonized the Serbs.

        Rather than engaging in false analogies with the Clinton
        Administration's internationalist era, and absolutizing ALL Serbs as
        angelic beings with no responsibility for what they've done in Europe
        and the Balkans, and, sliming ALL Western journalists in general, why
        don't we put the absolutizing of human behavior aside and turn off the
        fog machine. Also, let's not engage in dueling hypocrisies of extreme
        claims, either. To do my part, I'll keep citing hard data, since I'm
        not a clairovoyant.

        > They produced a huge body of "information" about "Serbian
        > aggression", enough to fill a library.

        There's no doubt in my mind that some journalists and some powerful
        media corporations reported a much exaggerated death count which was
        used as a pretext to accuse the Serbs of a genocide campaign and in
        part, justify the bombing campaigns. (I'm so glad that the government
        that used that information wrongly, to the extent that it did, is not
        interweaving itself with the Orthodox Church, or vice versa.)

        The L.A. Times, however, put a reporter on the ground who made
        contrary reports as to the exaggerations. That is the same publication
        reporting on the Russian people's blight now. I remember citing the
        Times in some letters written to a national news outlet, encouraging
        its investigative reporter to check into the figures, and also to do
        an expose on the drug-running, terrorist infiltrated Kosovo Liberation
        Army. It was done, and that was the beginning of the wider media
        exposure of the KLA as a drug-running organization in Europe with ties
        to the Afghan Mujahadeen. Also, K-FOR and authorities have been
        putting KLA members on trial as well. Having said that, I'll just bet
        you there are some naive Kosovar teenagers just waiting to please
        their elders and join the KLA, just as there were many misguided young
        folks who marched to the drum of the KGB etc. etc.. Well, wait a
        minute, one of them's . . . President of Russia! What do you know? And
        that comrade Castro, he's just a teddy bear of a leader. And how can
        you hate Kim? He hasn't even got a competent barber.

        > It has even generated propaganda movies disguised as "action films",
        > and a Saturday morning children's show called "Bosnia 101", aimed at
        > teaching children to hate the Serbs.

        Actually, I saw one such movie with American actor Dennis Quaid in it;
        he played a mercenary sniper. It wasn't an action movie, but a drama
        with action that showed the human suffering caused by the action. And
        it showed the suffering on both sides. It showed Muslim militants
        lining up Serb women, children and old folks in a river, and killing
        them in front of one another using digging tools, sledge hammers and
        other instruments of torture when used against a person. It made it
        clear how those atrocities provoked the Serb warriors.

        But you know something? I've also seen the stories of English kings
        subjugating the Scotsmen, American colonists and the Irish. I've seen
        the stories and histories of the raping, pillaging and atrocity. And
        then, I saw it in the American Civil War, perhaps as brutal a war as
        any of them, ever, considering the lack of medical care. And, I've
        read and seen accounts of the horrible chem warfare and human wave
        trench warfare of WWI. And the Normandy invasion, and the campaigns in
        the Pacific against the fascists, and so on. But I don't see Scotsmen
        waging a war for all time against the English. I don't see the Irish
        forever warring against the English. America is not warring against
        Britain. Not even the American South is gearing up to do terrorist
        acts in the North. And, the allies aren't doing terrorists acts or
        "ethnic cleansing" of the Germans for their past transgressions in the
        World Wars, and the massive suffering of those two World Wars. We've
        let it go.

        But not the Muslims and Serbs. They just keep at it and at it and at
        it. And there's this thing against the Jews -- the Jews this, and the
        Jews that -- constant talk of the Jewish conspiracies just keeps on
        circulating in Russia. And, many Jews, feeling justified, reciprocate,
        attacking the Christian faith. This is all human conflict at many
        different levels that just keep rewinding and replaying. You've got to
        step back at some point and let it go. It's just stupid and doesn't do
        anybody a darn bit of good.

        The central question in all of this seems to be: how do the people
        deal with sin, fellow sinners and with overcoming passions? Is there a
        spiritual light for them to follow in that land and in authority?

        Nationalism will simply bury those questions and go after the same
        solutions ad nauseum.

        > But it was all false. And it cost thousands of innocent people their
        > lives.

        Whenever someone says "all" or "never" even our elementary school
        teachers told us to watch out. Those answers are almost always wrong,
        with the very rare exception. Why? Because the only absolute is God,
        Who Is the Absolute Truth, and Absolutely Good.

        Not even the devil is an absolute being, because it can't be as evil
        as God Is Good. It can't be infinitely evil as God Is infinitely Good.

        So when you apply absolutizing statements to the wars and conflicts of
        men, it shows either a case of naivete, denial, or intentional
        idolatry of some group of men or nation or another, and that
        displeased God who taught us that we shall have no god before Him.

        Also, if you are saying that the entire Western press gets it all
        wrong, or, are in a massive conspiracy against the Serbs and Russians,
        that would have to be some kind of conspiracy such that all of the
        Orthodox Christian journalists wouldn't just quit corresponding with
        their Western counterparts to report what was going on. The way you
        talk, we can't rely on anything from the Western press. And yet they
        covered Katrina, a self-critical coverage from the nationalist
        perspective, very well. Wouldn't have happened in Russia today.

        This is why those of us who have been at the receiving end of the MP's
        propaganda understand the reason why the MP keeps repeating the lie
        that this is about "reconciliation" or "unity" with the Russian
        Church, so that it can make itself synonymous with the Russian Church
        without repenting for what it is doing to that Church and to that
        people. The MP/RF wants every person who disagrees with the lifting of
        the suspension of communion with the local Russian Church **under the
        Moscow Patriarchate's unrepentant authority**, to appear to be against
        unity with the Russian Church herself, or her people, which is a
        bold-faced lie.

        The Moscow Patriarchate is a spiritually sick institution. If it were
        not, there would be no reason to pretend that the ROCOR's Bishops, or,
        the narrower authority of the Synod, where all the Bishops of the
        ROCOR inconveniently disagree with Moscow, should have their own
        administrative authority. Well, they won't, but there would be no
        reason to pretend they will.

        You see, the Moscow Patriarchate will be able to add parishes to the
        ROCOR over time and man them, while halting ROCOR initiated growth
        using its confirmation and agreement power. And these will change the
        balance of the authority away from the Outside Russia hierarchy to an
        inside Russia control, if it has not already been achieved. They can
        pack the court, so to speak. Also, the ROCOR can't make additions of
        parishes, as I understand it, without MP confirmation and agreement.
        So the MP can stifle ROCOR directed parish openings while expanding
        Moscow-directed parish openings abroad. I see no restriction on that
        written in at present, and there appear to be many weasel words in the
        Act of Canonical Communion document allowing a reversal of most
        everything granted. For example, "of a Canonical character," etc.

        So it is an end run, even as campaigns of internal influence and
        control have been ongoing for some time now with the goal of turning
        the ROCOR towards legitimizing the Soviet era leadership of the new
        secular authoritarian Russia.

        > There is also a huge realm of misleading writings about the Orthodox
        > Church, claiming that Orthodoxy "broke away from Rome", and once
        > again one could fill a library with such "learned information".
        > But it isn't the truth.

        That misleading information exists on one topic, does not mean that
        misleading information on another topic follows. This analogy has no
        real nexus between those who claimed the Orthodox Church broke from
        Rome, with those who say the Moscow Patriarchy is corrupt with
        Sovietized officials in the new Authoritarianism that neglects
        Russians to death.

        Putin's image gives Russians the wrong pride. He is the disciplined,
        Judo master Soviet super-hero image-man. The ex-KGB soldier-statesman
        for the Soviet, uh I mean, Russian state. But it is just an image, and
        the leadership he has provided has once again moved toward dictatorial
        control and away from investment in the Russian nation; towards
        corruption and away from Christ. You see, if you control people so
        that they never complain about dying off from all manner of
        negligence, leadership vacuums and corrupt criminal neglect, then
        there is no problem maintaining your well-dressed image. Silence
        speech, and no problems exist! That's the Soviet solution.

        However, now that Putin sees that his own future of enjoying behind
        the scenes influence and security is at stake because of his political
        ideology of nationalist negligence controlling Russia for the past 6
        years, he is only now saying that he will spend significant money on
        medical development of Russia. What a convenient decision, coming just
        as major press and think-tanks, including the LA Times, shined a light
        into his government's negligence and corruption. I imagine Putin sees
        the freedom of press principle that led to those reports as the "lynch
        mob" as you have defined as the hallmark of pure democracy, Fr. John.


        > In the case of all this "informative writing" about Russia and the
        > Russian Orthodox Church, Mr. Woodson has collected material that
        > supports a negative attitude.

        Again, your propaganda colors from the RF/MP show as loudly as a neon
        tie that binds you to them, and against the interests of those you
        were ordained to serve: the Russian Orthodox Church. You
        mischaracterize my writing as being "about the Russian Orthodox
        Church," when I have been writing about the influences of this Moscow
        Patriarchate (not itself the Church or the people of Russia) and the
        government that is kow-tows to, on the Russian people, and the Russian
        Orthodox Church composed of those people.

        The Russian Orthodox Church is the people Fr. John, and you keep
        wanting to morph it into an institution that is indifferent to their
        suffering. That is and was not the way of the Lord Jesus Christ.


        > Instead of looking up disinformation in the research library, I
        > would recommend getting to know Patriarchal clergy, seminarians, and
        > monastics, personally.
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw


        Why? So they can tell me what a genuine Orthodox Christian Mr. Putin
        is while he admires the raping of ten women, dismisses as
        insignificant the life of a journalist to generalize and de-specify
        thinking about the execution murder of that journalist, sanitizes and
        covers-up KGB histories of his own and the MP staff, and commits
        criminally negligent democide against his own people? C'mon Fr. John.

        I'd rather not listen to all of the things they say, but keep an eye
        on what they're doing and not doing. Many of them use the reverential
        respect that we all must have for the symbols and garmets and offices
        they wear to assert control over the people of the Church. But that
        only goes so far before people start seeing them for what they are.
        Why would I want to hang around with them and make a pretence of the
        legitimacy of their present course of anti-Christ nationalism?

        That's the fruit our Lord Jesus Christ told us to keep a watch out for
        so we will know whether they are from Him, or serving some other god.

        Surely there are clergy members within Russia who are genuine and
        sincere folks. They are the ones who I believe will one day be asked
        by the Church to fill all positions in the leadership of the One
        Russian Church. But first, those slots must be patiently left by the
        repentance of resigning hierarchs. At present, under Putin and Alexei
        II, there will be a scoffing sound at this suggestion that comes from
        the scoffers' seats.

        However, the ones who get sent to America to get the communion
        suspension lifted know where their butter comes from, and what they
        are here to do. The question of legitimacy from the top, and the
        state-church indistinction make it hard to know who you are speaking
        with. The envoy for Caesar, or an ambassador for a higher government
        of the Lord Jesus Christ. It's just that the latter don't seem to ride
        up to you first class on an airplane, in a Mercedes or with a look of
        condescension on their faces, rolling their eyes at your parish priest
        when he makes a mistake during services and thus undermining him
        before his flock. Where things and agendas become more important than
        souls, and power and pomp more important than spirituality, you know
        who has come to town, and it isn't the generous, loving Saint Nicholas.

        By their fruit ye shall know them, or worse, who turned them. May the
        pen be precise to who this may help turn back merely by saying what's
        true from someone who is not a power-broker or insider. Obviously I'm
        not, because look at the entirely opposite view I have from the
        official course. Also, I can tread water for a long time waiting until
        the hijackers of this part of the great Ark of Orthodox Christianity
        have been removed from command at the helm.

        To the Russians: when are you going to throw these counterfeits off of
        your backs and bring in the humble who have not sought the power seats
        and therefore who can rightfully represent Christ's leadership in the
        One Russian Church? Where are the men who don't allow themselves to be
        called humble or thank God in public that *they* led the spiritual
        renewal of Russia, thinking more of their legacy than the reality.

        Will the real clergy of the Holy government of Christ be ushered into
        service by the Church in Russia with the help of the ROCOR? For that
        to happen, the majority must stand up against the arrogant rulers and
        principalities and powers and call on the the Lord Jesus Christ for
        merciful deliverance from those powers and principalities playing
        power games that make more chaos for their homeland and future
        generations.
      • Mike Woodson
        HA! Dear Viatcheslav. No, the Russian Federation isn t paying me to be here. I work for myself to make posts at this momentous time as the government to which
        Message 3 of 22 , Nov 1, 2006
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          HA! Dear Viatcheslav. No, the Russian Federation isn't paying me to be
          here. I work for myself to make posts at this momentous time as the
          government to which you are loyal tries to commandeer the Church.
          After it is clear that I've done all I can do, I'll end my postings
          just as joined only a few months ago on the grounds of conscience.

          Tell you what. If you are upset at the amount of words I type, you
          should try the Mavis Beacon typing program. It will increase your
          speed too!

          At 75 words a minute, thanks to Mavis, I can work six days a week and
          donate a few extra paragraphs for a good cause without a government
          paying me to do so. That's right, all supported by the private sector
          sweat of my brow without so much as a government contract in sight.

          How long have you been posting here Viatch? I mean, as Boitchenko, I
          know it has been FIVE YEARS (since February 2001). I find it amazing
          the amount of verbiage you can put out over five years for your
          regime. The first one I could find I've pasted below between the lines.

          Boitchenko's / Viatcheslav's first (?) comment from February 2001 in
          response to Olga Ackerly's specific quotations, is reproduced below,
          holding the party's line with conclusory statements:
          _____________________________________________________________________

          If I may only make a small comment: M. Thatcher is a Russophobe. She
          could blame Russia for acting like the Russian Empire in the same
          manner. Strategic alliance with China and India are in Russia's best
          interests. Personally, I do not see any relevance to the church situation.

          v
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ackerly, Olga" <ackerlyo@...>
          To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:06 PM
          Subject: [orthodox-synod]


          For those who think that things in Russia have changed and who are
          quietly sleeping, having been put to sleep by those promoting union
          with the MP,here is a bit of what Margaret Thatcher had to say about
          today's CIS (Russia). I certainly do not agree with everything she
          says, but the lines below caught my eye in view of the brainwashing
          taking place in favor of the MP and Putin in our midst. I wonder why
          those promoting union with the MP on Orthodox lists are totally silent
          on such and many other matters, or are they told not to disturb the
          sheep? After all, silently for years, they have prepared the union
          which, according to Drozdov's recent statement, is only a matter of
          time. All this while silencing those who speak up and pacifying those
          who voice concern for Rocor's threatened existence.

          From The Hoover Digest:

          "Russia. We don't need to look very far. One dysfunctional member of our
          global
          community has quite a familiar appearance. With every day that
          passes, modern
          Russia behaves more and more like the old Soviet Union. Its
          foreign policy seems
          still to be based heavily on its Soviet past.....
          Russia is an enthusiastic proliferator of weapons of mass
          destruction. It is also
          intent on trying to forge a strategic partnership with China
          aimed
          at the West: Mr.
          Putin was in Beijing recently doing just that. By any criteria
          Russia still represents a
          threat, even if that threat is only general.
          There are also some worrying signs that the desire of ordinary
          Russians for law and
          order may provide the authorities with an excuse to return to
          internal repression.
          Whatever else he is, Russia's new president is clearly not a
          liberal."



          Olga Dolskaya-Ackerly
          Department of Music History- Conservatory of Music
          University of Missouri- Kansas City

          "Krugom izmena, i trusost', i obman"
          Martyr St. Nicholas


          Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          ____________________________________________________________________


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "V. Boitchenko"
          <tompkins440@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mike,
          >
          > First of all, I must say I am amazed at the amount of text you
          produce in your posts. I work five days a week and I really have no
          time for this. I apologize.
          >
          > You must agree that if the author is biased a certain way then even
          if the information is factually true, the conclusions drawn from it
          are most likely to be biased at best, if not entirely false.

          I MUST? SAYS WHO VIATCH? YOU? Everyone's biased, so in your book,
          everything is false.

          You must also understand that half or incomplete truth is nonetheless
          truth.

          WHAT?

          To be frank with you, I don't think there is anything in those
          articles that I don't already know. It is only a matter where the
          author puts the accents. Russia is not an ideal society. I know that.
          I am aware of the problems. However, I don't see how a church that was
          persecuted for over 70 years is now, all of a sudden, guilty of all
          the social, political and demographic problems in the Russian society.
          I don't see how it would be spiritually beneficial for me to read more
          Russophobic ravings, get aggravated and try to argue with author. I am
          also under impression that you are preoccupied with Russian politics,
          while the path of the Church is really beyond politics. We are not
          seeking unity with the Russian government but with the Orthodox Church
          in Russia.
          >
          > vb
          >
          >
          > >Viatcheslav, I would take the opposite approach. Read the reports
          and then cross
          > >check the factual representations with other sources. I did that. By
          > >the comments that immediately came out of the usual corners, I could
          > >tell that they were not made having carefully read the reports or
          > >checked on the data referred to in them...
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          __________________________________________________________________
        • George Edward Green III
          ... This reads like the major media apologetics for the Albanian Muslims in Kosovo. The genocide of Muslims in Kosovo and Serbia, etc were MADE UP. It s been
          Message 4 of 22 , Nov 2, 2006
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            On Nov 1, 2006, at 12:57 PM, Mike Woodson wrote:

            > Rather than engaging in false analogies with the Clinton
            > Administration's internationalist era, and absolutizing ALL Serbs as
            > angelic beings with no responsibility for what they've done in Europe
            > and the Balkans, and, sliming ALL Western journalists in general, why
            > don't we put the absolutizing of human behavior aside and turn off the
            > fog machine. Also, let's not engage in dueling hypocrisies of extreme
            > claims, either. To do my part, I'll keep citing hard data, since I'm
            > not a clairovoyant.

            This reads like the major media apologetics for the Albanian Muslims
            in Kosovo.

            The genocide of Muslims in Kosovo and Serbia, etc were MADE UP. It's
            been proven there was no genocide, plans for genocide, nor apparent
            interest in genocide.

            I do not see how any Orthodox Christian could come to the defense of
            invading Muslims who have killed Orthodox Christians and blown up
            churches at a consistent pace since this began.

            Serbs may not be angels but they were certainly trying to defend the
            historical religious center of their nation from an invasion by
            Muslim terrorists. Terrorists who've setup a heroin and human
            trafficking hub in Kosovo since.

            Me thinks you should check out:
            http://www.interfax-religion.com/kosovo/

            Also there is a book on the Orthodox Christian Heritage of Kosovo
            which you can purchase in the bookstore in Jordanville.

            George

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Melissa Bushunow
            Reporters Without Borders puts Russia as 140th out of 168 countries in rankings of journalistic freedom and safety. This latest ranking is based on events from
            Message 5 of 22 , Nov 2, 2006
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              Reporters Without Borders puts Russia as 140th out of 168 countries in
              rankings of journalistic freedom and safety. This latest ranking is
              based on events from September 2003 to September 2004. September
              2006's murders of ITAR-TASS Journalist Anatoly Voronin and Novaya
              Gazeta's reporter Anna Politkovskaya and all the other cases of
              journalist murder and intimidation for the past two years aren't
              figured in. http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=11716

              If those -- whose profession is to make their voice heard -- are not
              safe in the Russian Federation then a) it is not surprising that those
              without a voice are abused; b) the the scale of immorality and
              lawlessness of Putin's Russia is underreported. Below are a few
              incidents which did come to light.

              "Yekaterinburg, Russia � A massive child sex ring was exposed in
              downtown Yekaterinburg... The accused were caught selling young boys,
              renting them for sexual services and routinely raping them. Their
              victims were over 1,000 boys, ages 12 through 17. This �business� has
              been operating for five years..."
              http://www.russiablog.org/2006/08/boys_for_sale_and_sexual_servi.html

              In Putin's army young men and boys are being raped and beaten to death
              in the armed services, and no one in the upper ranks of officers has
              had to take any responsibility for the senseless brutality. One of the
              "victims is 19-year old Radik Habirov from Kazan, who was brought in
              to a local hospital weighing only 65 pounds and is now in a coma. This
              is the worst case of documented abuse in the Russian Army since the
              widely reported case of Pvt. Sychev six months ago. Last week in Moscow
              more details emerged from closed hearings about the extent of Pvt.
              Sychev�s mutilation. Even Army doctors accustomed to seeing scars and
              broken bones from abuse have been shocked at how severely Pvt. Sychev
              was tortured by his comrades. Army doctors had tried to cover up the
              crime, blaming the loss of Sychev�s legs on a pre-existing medical
              condition, but a civilian panel of medical examiners concluded that
              Sychev was gang raped in the barracks while taped to his bunk. After
              being sodomized repeatedly, he was forced to do squats, then made to
              hold in the squatting position for hours, until he lost circulation in
              his legs. By the time he was brought to a hospital, doctors could only
              save Sychev�s life by amputating his legs and genitals.
              http://www.russiablog.org/2006/07/russian_army_needs_a_reform.html


              The Soviets made it illegal for the Orthodox Church and Orthodox
              institutions to take care of the the ill, the orphans, the poor. The
              heirs of the Soviet system -- Putin and his soviet oligarchs (the
              soviets who were in power when the system "fell" maintained their grasp
              on power) -- have ignored the societal obligations that the soviet
              system seized and at least gave lip service to. And the MP since
              regaining its "freedom" has not taken up the slack.


              Yes, rebuilding churches is God-pleasing, printing literature is
              God-pleasing, but Christ said to the pharisees (St. Matthew 23:23) that
              they should have done the one and not ignored the other. Woe unto
              you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and
              anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
              judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to
              leave the other undone.


              Christ addresses the excuse of withholding care of the poor (in this
              case elderly parents) in order to donate to the temple: 3Jesus
              replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your
              tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone
              who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[b] 5But you say
              that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might
              otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' [meaning
              that it is a gift to the temple] 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]'
              with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your
              tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about
              you:
              �8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
              ������but their hearts are far from me.
              �9They worship me in vain;
              ������their teachings are but rules taught by men.'[d]"

              The church is to be both Martha and Mary. We are reminded on the
              Sunday of the last Judgment that we will be judged for our care of the
              poor and ill.


              Why has the Orthodox Church MP not taken this subject up? Because it
              involves criticizing their past soviet masters, who are still their
              present day masters. If the MP would truly throw off the soviet yoke
              by complete confession of its past and continuing complicity, then its
              penance could include fulfilling its scriptural obligations. It would
              have the spiritual strength and legitimacy to criticize and help remedy
              the horrors and lawlessness occurring under Putin.







              On Oct 28, 2006, at 10:48 PM, Mike Woodson wrote:
              > Below I reproduce two key paragraphs buttressing my arguments of
              > neglect, and specifically, because the paragraphs discussed conditions
              > of 3 years ago, versus the LA Times report now, I argue that the
              > Moscow
              > Patriarchate, acting as the social policy arm of the government, has
              > been partially responsible for these status quos. At the time of the
              > below report excerpts from a 2003 US State Department Country Report
              > <http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27861.htm> , Patriarch
              > Alexei II who had been asserting that there had been a spiritual
              > revival
              > in Russia back in 2003, had been in office for twelve years (12) when
              > the below statistics about the MP's government power, and about
              > homeless
              > children came out. What is said, and what is done, is yet again
              > different. The virtous thing is written or said, and the reality is
              > something else. See how this applied to children in 2003:
              > The status of many children has deteriorated since the collapse of
              > communism because of falling living standards, an increase in the
              > number
              > of broken homes, and domestic violence. Authorities cited 253,000
              > parents in 2001 for leaving children on the street unattended, up from
              > 248,000 in 2000. In Moscow, approximately 6,000 children per year were
              > brought to the Center of Temporary Isolation of Minor Delinquents
              > (COVINA). These children stayed in COVINA for no more than 30 days.
              > During this period, the child's case was investigated, and his or her
              > guardian was located; however, in 90 to 95 percent of these cases, the
              > police simply returned the children to their families or to the
              > institution from which the children ran away. Many officials
              > considered
              > domestic problems private affairs and preferred not to interfere.
              > Trafficking in children was a problem (see Section 6.f.)."
              >
              > Figures for homeless children were unreliable. According to the
              > Ministry
              > of Labor, there were estimates from 100,000 to 5 million neglected
              > children in Russia. In 2002, about 681,000 vagrant children were
              > detained by law enforcement agencies, 2.5 times the 2001 rate. About
              > 50,000 adolescents were on the local and federal wanted lists in 2002,
              > 13.5 percent more than in 2001. The Russian Children's Fund estimated
              > in
              > 2001 that there were approximately 2.5 million children living on the
              > street, although other estimates reached as high as 4 million;
              > scientific studies used differing methodologies to count street
              > children. During the year, Moscow authorities indicated that 40,000
              > working street children lived in the capital but claimed 80 percent
              > were
              > from places other than Moscow. In addition, there were approximately
              > 3,000 young persons ageed 18 to 24 in Leningrad Oblast, most of them
              > discharged from state institutions and given state housing, who had
              > difficulty maintaining a residence and adapting to non-institutional
              > life in general. Homeless children often engaged in criminal
              > activities,
              > received no education, and were vulnerable to drug and alcohol abuse.
              > Some young girls on the street turned, to or were forced into,
              > prostitution in order to survive.
              >
              > And here is the report on the Moscow Patriarchate's true relationship
              > to
              > the Russian government, indicating its influential, yet apparently
              > ineffectual and neglectful role during these years:
              >
              > Many religious minority groups and NGOs complained of what they
              > believed
              > was collusion between the Russian Orthodox Church and the state.
              > Neither
              > the Constitution nor the 1997 law accords explicit privileges or
              > advantages to "traditional religions;" however, many politicians and
              > public figures argued for closer cooperation with them, above all with
              > the Russian Orthodox Church's Moscow Patriarchate. Public statements
              > by
              > some government officials, including President Putin, and anecdotal
              > evidence from religious minority groups, suggested that the Russian
              > Orthodox Church increasingly enjoyed a status that approached
              > official.
              > The Church has entered into a number of agreements with government
              > ministries giving it special access to institutions such as schools,
              > hospitals, prisons, the police, the FSB, and the army. The Russian
              > Orthodox Church appears to have had greater success reclaiming
              > pre-revolutionary property than other groups, and many religious
              > workers
              > believed that the Russian Orthodox Church played a role in the
              > cancellation of visas held by non-Orthodox foreign religious workers.
              >
              > The child neglect problem was actually worsening 11 years into
              > Patriarch
              > Alexei II's reign over the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia. Same
              > with
              > the broken family problem. And if you consider health care part of
              > Christian ministry, as I do, there were apparently very few if any
              > attempts by the MP to spearhead reforms in on that front for the past
              > fifteen (15) years.
              >
              > Neglect kills people just as sure as abortion does. St. Paul said, "He
              > who knows to do good, but does not do it, to him that is a sin."
              >
              > It is this Moscow Patriarchate that the ROCOR stands to legitimize by
              > lifting the suspension on communion. The suspension was never
              > governing
              > the same communion between those members of the Russian Church in
              > Russia
              > and Outside of Russia. It was always for the purpose of bringing the
              > MP
              > to repentance and Russia to freedom. The information on record shows a
              > stunning bankruptcy in ethics at the MP for allowing its conflict of
              > interest and cronyism with the Kremlin to numb it to the need to
              > preach
              > out and be the conscience and the moral leadership in getting the
              > government and business to act to improve the health, welfare and
              > development of Russia-at-Large.
              >
              > Is the Moscow Patriarchate that has still not repented of these
              > lapses,
              > really what the ROCOR wants to legitimize with the lift on the
              > suspension of communion planned for 2007, given what we know of the
              > MP's
              > unrepentant priorities over these past 15 to 20 years?
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: If that is what you believe, then you are simply misinformed about the current role, voice and and activities of the Moscow Patriarchate. I would
              Message 6 of 22 , Nov 2, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
                wrote:

                > The Soviets made it illegal for the Orthodox Church and Orthodox
                > institutions to take care of the the ill, the orphans, the poor. The
                > heirs of the Soviet system -- Putin and his soviet oligarchs (the
                > soviets who were in power when the system "fell" maintained their grasp
                > on power) -- have ignored the societal obligations that the soviet
                > system seized and at least gave lip service to. And the MP since
                > regaining its "freedom" has not taken up the slack.

                JRS: If that is what you believe, then you are simply misinformed about the current role,
                voice and and activities of the Moscow Patriarchate.

                I would recommend following the news and historical articles at "pravoslavie.ru" and
                "sedmitza.ru". Every day, there are key developments.

                You might be quite surprised, if you listen other voices besides those who attack the
                Patriarchal Church.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: 1) You are representing the current hierarchy of the Church of Russia as being somehow false bishops, mostly because they agreed to be bishops. Not
                Message 7 of 22 , Nov 2, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                  wrote:

                  > To the Russians: when are you going to throw these counterfeits off of
                  > your backs and bring in the humble who have not sought the power seats
                  > and therefore who can rightfully represent Christ's leadership in the
                  > One Russian Church? Where are the men who don't allow themselves to be
                  > called humble or thank God in public that *they* led the spiritual
                  > renewal of Russia, thinking more of their legacy than the reality.

                  JRS: 1) You are representing the current hierarchy of the Church of Russia as being
                  somehow false bishops, mostly because they agreed to be bishops.

                  Not only are the accusations you bring against them false and undeserved: the same
                  supposed guilt of "having sought the power seats" could be applied to anyone else who
                  was willing to become a bishop.

                  2) Calling on "the Russians" to rise up and overthrow the Church hierarchy is completely
                  contrary to Orthodox Christianity.

                  It is the way of the Protestant reformation, and if followed, could lead to nothing good.

                  3) However, the Moscow Patriarchate and its bishops and clergy are, if anything, much
                  more popular today than the Russian clergy were before the revolution, when anticlerical
                  attitudes were a well-known (and well-documented) problem.

                  Ironically, the older Russian emigration sometimes preserved those anticlerical attitudes,
                  whereas the new arrivals from Russia usually are respectful towards the clergy, and
                  constantly seek their prayers and advice.

                  4) The overwhelming majority of the Russian clergy, including the majority of the bishops,
                  have been ordained since the fall of communism, mostly in the past few years.

                  There are no canonical grounds for replacing them, few candidates with any training to
                  could take their places, and in any case, the next generation of bishops, priests and
                  deacons would still be "the successors" of those who went before them: thus they too
                  would be attacked in the same way, by persons of your mindset.

                  Consequently, what you are calling for is both unreasonable, and impossible to achieve.

                  > The L.A. Times, however, put a reporter on the ground who made
                  > contrary reports as to the exaggerations. ... I remember citing the
                  > Times in some letters written to a national news outlet, ... and that was
                  > the beginning of the wider media
                  > exposure of the KLA as a drug-running organization in Europe with ties
                  > to the Afghan Mujahadeen.

                  JRS: Unfortunately, that "wider media exposure" has been anything but wide. I would
                  recommend waiting until a few more people learn of it, before taking credit.

                  > The central question in all of this seems to be: how do the people
                  > deal with sin, fellow sinners and with overcoming passions? Is there a
                  > spiritual light for them to follow in that land and in authority?

                  JRS: The spiritual light for them, and for us, can only be in the Church.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • DDD
                  On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:38:24 -0500, Melissa Bushunow wrote: Why has the Orthodox Church MP not taken this subject up?  Because it involves criticizing their
                  Message 8 of 22 , Nov 2, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 12:38:24 -0500, Melissa Bushunow wrote:

                    Why has the Orthodox Church MP not taken this subject up?  Because it
                    involves criticizing their past soviet masters, who are still their
                    present day masters.  If the MP would truly throw off the soviet yoke
                    by complete confession of its past and continuing complicity, then its
                    penance could include fulfilling its scriptural obligations.  It would
                    have the spiritual strength and legitimacy to criticize and help remedy
                    the horrors and lawlessness occurring under Putin.
                    __________________________________________________________

                    Wow. By this logic, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia "would
                    have the spiritual strength and legitimacy to criticize and help remedy" Clinton's mass-murder and bombing of Orthodox Serbs and all the "horrors and lawlessness" that occurred under Clinton.

                    --Dimitra Dwelley
                  • Mike Woodson
                    Dear Very Rev. Fr. John, See my responses below your comments. ... ... Fr. John, that s your take. I said throw these counterfeits off,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Nov 3, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Very Rev. Fr. John,

                      See my responses below your comments.


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
                      <singingmountains@>
                      > wrote:
                      > To the Russians: when are you going to throw these counterfeits
                      > off of your backs and bring in the humble who have not sought the
                      > power seats and therefore who can rightfully represent Christ's
                      > leadership in > the One Russian Church? Where are the men who don't
                      > allow themselves to be called humble or thank God in public that
                      > *they* led the spiritual renewal of Russia, thinking more of their
                      > legacy than the reality.
                      >
                      > JRS: 1) You are representing the current hierarchy of the Church of
                      > Russia as being somehow false bishops, mostly because they agreed to
                      > be bishops.


                      Fr. John, that's your take. I said "throw these counterfeits off,"
                      which refers to the counterfeits among them. You generalized it to
                      all, something I did not do. That was a mistake, or, yet another spin.

                      Other items:


                      Why haven't you responded about MP Bishop Clement's admission to the
                      Episcopal Church in New York in 1998 that the Soviets had destroyed
                      the Orthodox hospitals or commandeered them, and needed to be rebuilt?


                      What are the names, locations and dates of Orthodox Christian
                      hospitals rebuilt since 1992 when Bishop Clement said Perestroika had
                      opened the door? Really, point them out. I can't find records.


                      Why was Bishop Clement in New York thanking the Episcopalians
                      (protestants) in the first place?


                      By speaking ill of the protests of protestants, do you imply that the
                      Roman Catholic Church was in their right not to be protested against?
                      Just sit there and let them burn folks to death? Don't protest? Don't
                      speak up?


                      Today the equivalent would be: Don't preach against the neglect of the
                      young, old and dying by the Putintocracy. Let their sacrifice be a
                      gift to the Patriarchate's needs, right?


                      Rather, you have singled out the elderly and their distrust of the
                      clergy for special mention -- bad 'ole folks -- they ruin the
                      sanitization of the Soviet legacy going on now, messing up the agenda.
                      They're a problem because they remember the truth and don't sell it out.


                      The USSR got so many people so sick with the pollution, neglect, and
                      indifference to human life, that Putin knows it would be easier just
                      to let entire generations die off than it would to take care of them.


                      It's either that, or he was unaware while President of Russia for six
                      (6) years that Russia was so sick before he announced spending. "As
                      you do to the least of these, so you do unto me."

                      > Not only are the accusations you bring against them false and
                      > undeserved: the same supposed guilt of "having sought the power
                      > seats" could be applied to anyone else who
                      > was willing to become a bishop.

                      Willing to become a Bishop is one thing. Accepting posts and seeking
                      out higher posts by carrying out KGB/FSB orders to get there is
                      another. From the 1950s to 1991 everyone acts like Drozdov (Alexei II)
                      didn't exist. The highest posts are the men with tenure. They call the
                      shots, and pick their picks.

                      Which of those ordinations did not require the approval of the
                      Patriarch Alexei II (Agent Drozdov)?

                      Why haven't those MP Bishops been preaching against Vladimir Putin's
                      conduct of a repressive government and neglect of the Russian people's
                      colossal medical, agricultural and preventive health needs?

                      If blood could be on their hands, shouldn't they step down? If the KGB
                      /FSB elicited info from clergy (now the higher ups) about people in
                      their communities, and they gave it up to protect their families,
                      while that is understandable and forgiveable under the stress of the
                      regime, just as Judas was forgivable had he repented, how do they know
                      whether their information was used for killing human beings?

                      > 2) Calling on "the Russians" to rise up and overthrow the Church
                      > hierarchy is completely contrary to Orthodox Christianity.

                      Only the "counterfeits," just as I said. The real hierarchy, the
                      sincere, would not be overthrown. Overthrowing counterfeits means
                      calling the pretenders to publicly resign. That requires an
                      investigation to ferret out those who were active Soviet informants
                      and agents. As I said, it would be easier if they would resign. If
                      that doesn't happen, or an investigation is impossible because of
                      destroyed records or lack of witnesses, it would be better to have
                      patience until the dark cloud of their falsity has passed.

                      Perhaps this is another reason for the neglect: so that all of the
                      aging witnesses of the actions of KGB informants would die off. It is
                      the ultimate sanitization of a record; killing the memory of the truth
                      by hastening the death of those with the memory. But don't worry,
                      there is a Higher governing Church Triumphant, and there are clouds of
                      witnesses there.

                      The investigation is not going to happen with Putin in power, so it
                      will have to be a while. Another perestroika is needed to get the FSB
                      and associated agencies to release all concealed KGB records.
                      Independent and honest investigators loyal to the Russian laws of the
                      Russian people, would also help. By now, I am concerned that the
                      records are sanitized or destroyed.


                      > It is the way of the Protestant reformation, and if followed, could
                      > lead to nothing good.

                      Yes, it would, and it wouldn't be a reformation, it would be a
                      correction within the true Church, pruning the tree of that which the
                      atheists grafted into the Patriarchate.

                      > 3) However, the Moscow Patriarchate and its bishops and clergy are,
                      if anything, much
                      > more popular today than the Russian clergy were before the
                      revolution, when anticlerical
                      > attitudes were a well-known (and well-documented) problem.

                      Popular in what way? Are pollsters calling the Russian households with
                      polls to extrapolate approval ratings on the clergy in general? Since
                      when were political perceptions of clergy measured by pollsters? Why
                      would that be an emphasis or expenditure?

                      It seems to me the Russian people have some reason for their
                      anti-clerical attitudes, considering that there were clerics informing
                      on their families, or participating with authorities in hunting down
                      innocent people.


                      > Ironically, the older Russian emigration sometimes preserved those
                      > anticlerical attitudes,

                      I wouldn't count distrust as anti-clerical. And their distrust comes
                      from knowing how the regime worked. The younger generations don't take
                      these things as seriously because they witnessed the USSR/Russia after
                      opposition, dissidents and truthtellers had already been crushed. The
                      elder emigres fully understood the single-minded focus of the
                      Committee for State Security and its resolve to finish the job on the
                      Church.

                      I am really, really glad St. John wrote his concise history of the
                      ROCOR. That has really helped us see the light about how dogged the
                      pursuers of the flock have been, especially since the Russian
                      government is reverting to Soviet practices again.


                      > whereas the new arrivals from Russia usually are respectful towards
                      the clergy, and
                      > constantly seek their prayers and advice.

                      You mean the people who left Russia to live here? They've come to the
                      ROCOR. Doesn't that beg the question?

                      >
                      > 4) The overwhelming majority of the Russian clergy, including the
                      > majority of the bishops,
                      > have been ordained since the fall of communism, mostly in the past
                      > few years.

                      We're talking about Bishops here Fr. John. When were they ordained as
                      priests, that's the question. Were they informants? That's what
                      determines who they're loyal to, Christ or the worldly government?

                      >
                      > There are no canonical grounds for replacing them, few candidates
                      with any training to
                      > could take their places, and in any case, the next generation of
                      bishops, priests and
                      > deacons would still be "the successors" of those who went before
                      them: thus they too
                      > would be attacked in the same way, by persons of your mindset.

                      There would be no canonicity to the placement of the counterfeits in
                      the first place, would there? Formal removal would not seem necessary.
                      It would be easier to tell who was who with a thorough investigation
                      and release of all KGB records. If the KGB and USSR are history, then
                      why are their records active secrets? Too embarrassing what could be
                      in there about the leadership, I'll bet.

                      > Consequently, what you are calling for is both unreasonable, and
                      > impossible to achieve.

                      How about a formal, careful, professional investigation to get to the
                      truth?

                      > > The L.A. Times, however, put a reporter on the ground who made
                      > > contrary reports as to the exaggerations. ... I remember citing the
                      > > Times in some letters written to a national news outlet, ... and
                      that was
                      > > the beginning of the wider media
                      > > exposure of the KLA as a drug-running organization in Europe with ties
                      > > to the Afghan Mujahadeen.
                      >
                      > JRS: Unfortunately, that "wider media exposure" has been anything
                      but wide. I would
                      > recommend waiting until a few more people learn of it, before taking
                      credit.
                      >

                      At the time the Washington Times was the at the forefront of
                      Washington newspapers keeping the Clinton Administration honest, and
                      their KLA coverage spurred Washington Post and Wall Street Journal
                      competition to widen that publicity. It's staff gets the credit for
                      breaking the KLA connections stories I'm referring to. You can see
                      them referenced online, or you can go to their archive. I saw
                      irregularities at CNN, including one report in which Kosovar Albanians
                      were sitting on a hillside laughing, and the camera turned on them and
                      they began lamenting and crying for the camera. Too many things were
                      irregular, much as is true for the Annexation of the ROCOR by the MP
                      today.

                      > > The central question in all of this seems to be: how do the people
                      > > deal with sin, fellow sinners and with overcoming passions? Is there a
                      > > spiritual light for them to follow in that land and in authority?
                      >
                      > JRS: The spiritual light for them, and for us, can only be in the
                      > Church.

                      Yes. And the boundaries of the Church God sets, not you or me. It
                      seems to me the boundaries don't include false prophets and politicos
                      installed by governments. Wouldn't you agree?

                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      >

                      God help us.
                      Michael
                    • Mike Woodson
                      Dear Dimitra, If that was the ROCOR s mission, yes. We are talking about the Church of Christ, living in faith. Yes. Michael ... would ... remedy Clinton s
                      Message 10 of 22 , Nov 3, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Dimitra,

                        If that was the ROCOR's mission, yes. We are talking about the Church
                        of Christ, living in faith. Yes.

                        Michael

                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wow. By this logic, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                        "would
                        > have the spiritual strength and legitimacy to criticize and help
                        remedy" Clinton's mass-murder and bombing of Orthodox Serbs and all
                        the "horrors and lawlessness" that occurred under Clinton.
                        >
                        > --Dimitra Dwelley
                        >
                      • DDD
                        On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:11:38 -0000, Mike Woodson wrote: Dear Dimitra, If that was the ROCOR s mission, yes. We are talking about the Church of Christ, living
                        Message 11 of 22 , Nov 4, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:11:38 -0000, Mike Woodson wrote:
                          Dear Dimitra,

                          If that was the ROCOR's mission, yes. We are talking about the Church
                          of Christ, living in faith. Yes.

                          Michael

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Wow. By this logic, the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                          "would
                          > have the spiritual strength and legitimacy to criticize and help
                          remedy" Clinton's mass-murder and bombing of Orthodox Serbs and all
                          the "horrors and lawlessness" that occurred under Clinton.
                          >
                          > --Dimitra Dwelley
                          ________________________________________________________________

                          Dear Michael,
                          Criticizing the U.S. government was not at all ROCOR's mission. I'm sorry you don't see the absurdity of it. It is for men to come to the Church. The Church does not *force* repentance, nor does it start taking on governments. If you remember, in the Gospels, the Jews had your same point: they wanted the Saviour to do something about the un-Jewish Roman rule. He refused. He even condoned paying tribute to (pagan) Caesar, which pious Jews considered to be the same as apostasy, since Caesar set himself up as a Roman god. This passage is worth serious reflection.
                          But the Church in Russia "took on" the government in a far different way: by its podvigi of existence under the cruel soviet regime, by prayer, by maintaining contact with God-bearing elders, by God's might working when we ourselves were powerless--and by martyrdom (yes, in the Moscow Patriarchate, which even the first Catacomb people were part of, since they recognized St. Peter of Krutista as patriarchal locum tenens.) By this means--spiritual means--the atheistic government in Russia was overcome and bloodlessly overthrown. This is a miracle for which we should all now be giving thanks to God!
                          I am reading the life of St. Seraphim of Vyritsa, who was a wonderworking, clairvoyant starets born before the Revolution and who reposed in 1949. Many who were not believers would somehow end up visiting him in times of personal sorrow--someone would say to them, "There is an old man in Vyritsa who can help you." And these people would come away believers. *This* is how the Russian Church has conquered atheism.
                          As for Putin, anything done by him as far as government goes is also done by our own government. That's why your accusation of the Orthodox Church is absurd--ah! the government has done something (you say) wrong, therefore the Church is not real. To go back to my comparison: that's like saying, "The Roman government was crucifying thousands of Jews; if Jesus were the Son of God He would come down from the Cross and overthrow the Roman government." But that's not what happened. He overthrew it in an entirely different way.
                          Meanwhile, under Putin, thousands of churches are being rebuilt, going to church is legal and not only allowed, but thriving. For this we should be giving thanks. If you don't like something else he is doing, by all means move to Russia and get involved in politics and speak up. Or, you could simply pray that the pious and God-fearing Tsar prophesied by the Optina Elders, St. Theophan of Poltava, Starets Lavrentii of Chernigov and others will now appear.

                          --Dimitra Dwelley
                          PS: In writing, it is impossible to convey tone of voice. I do not mean this in any kind of hostile tone of voice, Michael.
                        • Fr. John R. Shaw
                          ... JRS: You seem fond of accusing us of spin and of misrepresentation of the facts, and of all manner of things you do yourself. If only some of the clergy
                          Message 12 of 22 , Nov 4, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                            wrote:

                            > Fr. John, that's your take. I said "throw these counterfeits off,"
                            > which refers to the counterfeits among them. You generalized it to
                            > all, something I did not do. That was a mistake, or, yet another spin.

                            JRS: You seem fond of accusing us of "spin" and of misrepresentation of the facts, and of
                            all manner of things you do yourself.

                            If only some of the clergy in Russia are "counterfeits", how do you claim to know which is
                            which, when you seem to gain all information from American newspapers?

                            And who is supposed to decide that in Russia?

                            In any case, revolutions and overthrowing of bishops and priests by the laity is not
                            accepted in the Orthodox Church.

                            If a cleric is guilty of some specific offense, he can be tried before an ecclesiastical court.

                            > Why haven't you responded about MP Bishop Clement's admission to the
                            > Episcopal Church in New York in 1998 that the Soviets had destroyed
                            > the Orthodox hospitals or commandeered them, and needed to be rebuilt?

                            JRS: I do not read everything you write. I believe in getting to the point, and keeping my
                            remarks as concise as I can.

                            In 1998, he was already Archbishop Clement.

                            As for his remark as quoted, obviously it's true: the Church's hospitals, that it had before
                            the revolution were all taken away from it, and today they are being gradually rebuilt.

                            > What are the names, locations and dates of Orthodox Christian
                            > hospitals rebuilt since 1992 when Bishop Clement said Perestroika had
                            > opened the door? Really, point them out. I can't find records.

                            JRS: Two suggestions:

                            1) Learn to read Russian, and

                            2) follow the daily accounts of these things at the several MP websites.

                            > Why was Bishop Clement in New York thanking the Episcopalians
                            > (protestants) in the first place?

                            JRS: Who knows? Who cares?

                            Our own bishops (among them, Patriarch St. Tikhon) did that often enough in times past.

                            > By speaking ill of the protests of protestants, do you imply that the
                            > Roman Catholic Church was in their right not to be protested against?
                            > Just sit there and let them burn folks to death? Don't protest? Don't
                            > speak up?

                            JRS: What has that got to do with the time of day?

                            > The USSR got so many people so sick with the pollution, neglect, and
                            > indifference to human life, that Putin knows it would be easier just
                            > to let entire generations die off than it would to take care of them.

                            JRS: There are some writers on the internet that make ME sick, you know...

                            In Christ
                            Fr. John R. Shaw
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