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Old Calendar vs New Calendar

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  • morechoff@aol.com
    In jurisdictions where there are new and old calendar parishes, how do clergy from old calendar parishes or new calendar parishes serve when visiting a parish
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 31, 2006
      In jurisdictions where there are new and old calendar parishes, how do clergy from old calendar parishes or new calendar parishes serve when visiting a parish that is on the opposite calender? Readings are different, liturgy is different, fasting may be different, etc. Do clergy just go by the "host" parish?

      For example, if Metropolitan Herman serves Christmas on Dec 25th, can and does he serve Christmas again on January 7th? I believe he does. Bishop Nikolai of Alaska is on the old calendar, yet he often is in the lower 48 states which, for the most part, is new calendar in the OCA.

      What about fasting? Lets say the priest is a priest that serves in different parishes (both old and new calendar) does he pick one calendar and sticks to the fasting according to that calendar?

      When ROCOR/MP union takes places I imagine that ROCOR and OCA priests may concelebrate together (assuming ruling Bishops ok their respective clergy concelebrating), but ROCOR will have the same issue then with different calendars, readings, fasting, etc. I can see Patriarch Alexy visiting the US within the next five years and serving in both the OCA and ROCOR churches. If he visits Washington D.C. he would serve in St. Nicholas (OCA - New Calendar) as well as in St. John the Baptist (ROCOR - Old Calendar). Priests from either church might concelebrate together.

      I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.

      Are their any canons that make serving the same liturgy (e.g. Christmas) twice on different days?

      Michael Orechoff
      California
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    • James Baglien
      ... from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don t think it happens. A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with the American
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:
        >
        > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
        from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.

        A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
        the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
        rescinded by our bishops.

        Consequently, whereas with respect to most modernist jurisdictions we
        are, de jure, in communion even though we refrain from concelebration,
        in the case of the OCA, we are, technically speaking, "not in communion."

        These things may change in the wake of reestablishing eucharistic
        communion between the RC-MP and the ROCOR, but one should refrain from
        assuming that anything will be "automatic." As our hierarchs have
        stressed, the process of reconciliation is an *internal* matter of the
        Russian Church. Relationships with other Local Churches and their
        exarchates will be determined independently.

        in IC XC,

        Priest James Baglien
        Corvallis, Oregon
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: I don t think that was the original question. As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that ROCOR was such a
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "James Baglien" <jbgln@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@ wrote:
          > >
          > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
          > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.
          >
          > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
          > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
          > rescinded by our bishops.

          JRS: I don't think that was the original question.

          As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that
          ROCOR was such a jurisdiction for almost half a century.

          Archbishop Anthony of Geneva issued a Ukase to his clergy, about concelebration with the
          new calendar ROCOR Romanian parishes in Western Europe.

          They were allowed to concelebrate on a Sunday or a feast that was the same in both
          calendars (e.g. Ascension Day), but not on any feast day that would be repeated 13 days
          later in the Julian computation.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • morechoff@aol.com
          Thanks Father John! Appreciate the feedback. Good to learn these things. So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
            Thanks Father John! Appreciate the feedback. Good to learn these things.

            So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the Gregorian calendar), it would be on feast days that are the same in both calendars? Can a priest serve at other times? Is Archbishops Anthony's Ukase still in effect?

            I just wonder how the OCA does it today. It would seem that Metropolitan Herman and others (e.g. Bishop Nikolai) would be serving in parishes that follow either the Julian or Gregorian calendar.

            The Paris Exarchate at the has the same issue. Saint Alexander Nevsky on rue Daru uses Julian calendar in the main church and Gregorian in the crypt (lower church). I would imagine Archbishop Gabriel serves upstairs and downstairs.

            Mike

            -----Original Message-----
            From: vrevjrs@...
            To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 2:05 PM
            Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Old Calendar vs New Calendar


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "James Baglien" <jbgln@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@ wrote:
            > >
            > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR priest
            > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it happens.
            >
            > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer with
            > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not been
            > rescinded by our bishops.

            JRS: I don't think that was the original question.

            As for jurisdictions that include both old- and new-calendar parishes, remember that
            ROCOR was such a jurisdiction for almost half a century.

            Archbishop Anthony of Geneva issued a Ukase to his clergy, about concelebration with the
            new calendar ROCOR Romanian parishes in Western Europe.

            They were allowed to concelebrate on a Sunday or a feast that was the same in both
            calendars (e.g. Ascension Day), but not on any feast day that would be repeated 13 days
            later in the Julian computation.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw



            ________________________________________________________________________
            Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael nikitin
            So they ll lift all the Ukaz s , Declarations, proclamations, etc... and say it s O.K. They did it with the MP. They ll unite and the people will either leave
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 1, 2006
              So they'll lift all the Ukaz's , Declarations, proclamations,
              etc... and say it's O.K. They did it with the MP.

              They'll unite and the people will either leave or stay, but where
              will they go?...the bishops don't appear to care.

              Michael N


              --- James Baglien <jbgln@...> wrote:

              > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:
              > >
              > > I dont think there is anything today that prevents a ROCOR
              > priest
              > from concelebrating in an OCA parish, but I don't think it
              > happens.
              >
              > A ROCOR Conciliar Ukase of 1971 forbids any communion in prayer
              > with
              > the American Metropolia (a.k.a. the OCA). This ukase has not
              > been
              > rescinded by our bishops.
              >
              > Consequently, whereas with respect to most modernist
              > jurisdictions we
              > are, de jure, in communion even though we refrain from
              > concelebration,
              > in the case of the OCA, we are, technically speaking, "not in
              > communion."
              >
              > These things may change in the wake of reestablishing
              > eucharistic
              > communion between the RC-MP and the ROCOR, but one should
              > refrain from
              > assuming that anything will be "automatic." As our hierarchs
              > have
              > stressed, the process of reconciliation is an *internal* matter
              > of the
              > Russian Church. Relationships with other Local Churches and
              > their
              > exarchates will be determined independently.
              >
              > in IC XC,
              >
              > Priest James Baglien
              > Corvallis, Oregon
              >
              >
              >




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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: Of course, ROCOR no longer has its former new calendar dioceses (there once were 4 such) or parishes, so that is all history now. However, there are
              Message 6 of 6 , Nov 2, 2006
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, morechoff@... wrote:

                > So if ROCOR was able to concellabrate with OCA (or any other jurisdiction on the
                >Gregorian calendar), it would be on feast days that are the same in both calendars? Can a
                >priest serve at other times? Is Archbishops Anthony's Ukase still in effect?

                JRS: Of course, ROCOR no longer has its former new calendar dioceses (there once were 4
                such) or parishes, so that is all history now.

                However, there are "divergent menologia" even on the Julian reckoning. For example, the
                Greeks keep St. Catherine's day on Nov. 25, St. Clement on Nov. 24; the Russians have it
                the other way around.

                If one were to celebrate in a Russian parish on Nov. 24 OS, and then in a Greek parish that
                followed the Old Calendar on Nov. 25 OS (as for example in Jerusalem), or vice-versa, then
                one would have the same day's observances twice.

                And then, a number of Saints have multiple feast days: e.g. St. John the Baptist, certain
                Apostles, St. Nicholas of Myra, St. Alexander Nevsky, and many others.

                In the end, I do not think these differences ought to be an insuperable obstacle.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
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