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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Acronyms and You

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  • antiquariu@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:01:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nikitinmike@yahoo.com writes: Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw, is the document below from
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 7, 2006
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      In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:01:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
      nikitinmike@... writes:

      Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw,
      is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

      Michael N




      You know, Michael, in addition to beating a dead horse until you're blue in
      the face, you are also somewhat ignorant of the facts. The document is dated
      1946. Patriarch Aleksej II was not even thinking about patriarching at that
      time. Surely this was his predecessor?

      Love in Christ, but enough already,

      Vova H.





      Thankyou for your translation workorder! ALS appreciates the opportunity to
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frraphver
      I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at least non-students)
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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        I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of
        school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at
        least non-students) walk into a school and begin shooting down
        everyone in sight. This has happened now both in Canada & the USA. In
        the most recent incident an extremely disturbed man walked into a
        Christian school and shot a number of little girls before turning the
        gun on himself.

        If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
        be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
        us. Those in the MP would be having the equivalent on the internet of
        these conversations: "if you had the eyes to see you'd realize those
        demon westerners can't be trusted. They're all violent & irrational
        beasts."

        Well maybe they'd have a point.

        But as for being Orthodox Christians where the focus is supposed to be
        on healing, having sympathy & seeing yourself as worse than others
        rather than judgemental condemnation...

        Well, we already know Russian Orthodox Christians are praying for us.

        So maybe there's something for us to learn from.

        In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
        <singingmountains@...> wrote:
        >
        > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:
        >
        > Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe
        >
        > By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
        >
        > MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
        > afoul of government officials or their business and political partners.
        >
        > Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
        > reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
        > of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
        > Chechnya.
        >
        > As the
        > European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
        > contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
        > would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
        > of journalists in Russia under President
        > Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
        > post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.
        >
        > The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
        > that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
        > investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
        > produced so few prosecutions before.
        >
        > "Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
        > journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
        > executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect
        Journalists.
        >
        > Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
        > investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
        > Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.
        >
        > She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
        > since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
        > deadly country for journalists, after
        > Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
        > Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
        > opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.
        >
        > Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
        > dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been found.
        >
        > Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
        > killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
        > train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
        > Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.
        >
        > Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
        > elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
        > and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.
        >
        > Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
        > was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
        > Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
        > metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.
        >
        > Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing —
        > because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
        > found — but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.
        >
        > "It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
        > investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
        > Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
        > Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
        > death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
        > journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
        > important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
        > government policies."
        >
        > Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
        > elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
        > Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
        > the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
        > abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
        > security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
        > and torture.
        >
        > Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
        > revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.
        >
        > In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
        > criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
        > the kidnapping of two civilians — an ethnic Russian and a Chechen —
        > who were tortured and killed.
        >
        > Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people — including the
        > Russian military — with her investigative reporting and human rights
        > advocacy.
        >
        > Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
        > investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
        > coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.
        >
        > "We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
        > people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
        > told Ekho Moskvy radio.
        >
        > Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
        > journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
        > Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
        > magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
        > of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
        > ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
        > year.
        >
        > Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
        > Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
        > placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.
        >
        > Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
        > murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
        > erupted last week.
        >
        > Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
        > Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."
        >
        >
        >
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them. In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
          wrote:

          > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

          JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Mike Woodson
          Fr. Raphael, You are missing the point. You and everyone in Russia know about the criminal events that occur in the US because they get reported. It s an ethos
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Fr. Raphael,

            You are missing the point. You and everyone in Russia know about the
            criminal events that occur in the US because they get reported. It's
            an ethos built up over time here.

            However, it takes a Beslan for them to get reported to the world from
            Russia or its acquisitions, because the media is owned by presidential
            friends and others with conflicts of interest against objective public
            justice.

            Start reporting the crimes of the Russian street, and then talk to me
            about sympathy. You have to have honesty before sympathy can heal.
            Without honesty, the Mystery of Repentance is not present.

            By saying Putin enables crimes against journalists and probably winks
            at them doesn't mean he can't repent of it. However, to continue the
            charade that he's a pious Orthodox Christian and foist that on the
            Church Abroad and the world is a cynical and unhelpful error.

            Michael


            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of
            > school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at
            > least non-students) walk into a school and begin shooting down
            > everyone in sight. This has happened now both in Canada & the USA. In
            > the most recent incident an extremely disturbed man walked into a
            > Christian school and shot a number of little girls before turning the
            > gun on himself.
            >
            > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
            > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
            > us. Those in the MP would be having the equivalent on the internet of
            > these conversations: "if you had the eyes to see you'd realize those
            > demon westerners can't be trusted. They're all violent & irrational
            > beasts."
            >
            > Well maybe they'd have a point.
            >
            > But as for being Orthodox Christians where the focus is supposed to be
            > on healing, having sympathy & seeing yourself as worse than others
            > rather than judgemental condemnation...
            >
            > Well, we already know Russian Orthodox Christians are praying for us.
            >
            > So maybe there's something for us to learn from.
            >
            > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
            > <singingmountains@> wrote:
            > >
            > > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:
            > >
            > > Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe
            > >
            > > By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
            > >
            > > MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
            > > afoul of government officials or their business and political
            partners.
            > >
            > > Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
            > > reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
            > > of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
            > > Chechnya.
            > >
            > > As the
            > > European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
            > > contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
            > > would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
            > > of journalists in Russia under President
            > > Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
            > > post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.
            > >
            > > The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
            > > that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
            > > investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
            > > produced so few prosecutions before.
            > >
            > > "Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
            > > journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
            > > executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect
            > Journalists.
            > >
            > > Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
            > > investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
            > > Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.
            > >
            > > She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
            > > since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
            > > deadly country for journalists, after
            > > Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
            > > Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
            > > opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.
            > >
            > > Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
            > > dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been
            found.
            > >
            > > Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
            > > killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
            > > train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
            > > Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.
            > >
            > > Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
            > > elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
            > > and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.
            > >
            > > Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
            > > was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
            > > Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
            > > metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.
            > >
            > > Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing �
            > > because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
            > > found � but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.
            > >
            > > "It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
            > > investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
            > > Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
            > > Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
            > > death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
            > > journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
            > > important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
            > > government policies."
            > >
            > > Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
            > > elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
            > > Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
            > > the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
            > > abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
            > > security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
            > > and torture.
            > >
            > > Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
            > > revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.
            > >
            > > In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
            > > criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
            > > the kidnapping of two civilians � an ethnic Russian and a Chechen �
            > > who were tortured and killed.
            > >
            > > Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people � including the
            > > Russian military � with her investigative reporting and human rights
            > > advocacy.
            > >
            > > Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
            > > investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
            > > coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.
            > >
            > > "We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
            > > people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
            > > told Ekho Moskvy radio.
            > >
            > > Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
            > > journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
            > > Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
            > > magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
            > > of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
            > > ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
            > > year.
            > >
            > > Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
            > > Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
            > > placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.
            > >
            > > Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
            > > murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
            > > erupted last week.
            > >
            > > Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
            > > Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • michael nikitin
            Fr.John wrote: JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce? ... Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey s II wife
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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              Fr.John wrote:
              JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?
              > Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.
              > The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had
              > deserted him immediately after the wedding.
              > Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.

              Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

              Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
              did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
              Or was it planned?

              Who was to blame if the Church gave his wife the divorce she requested...
              or does the MP follow the Latins and now annul marriages?

              JRS: "It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them."

              Indeed!

              Michael N


              "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
              wrote:

              > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

              JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw






              ---------------------------------
              Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Aleksandr Andreev
              ... I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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                Mike Woodson wrote:
                >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current
                process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
                like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                Patriarchate. But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                from the
                "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them quoting from
                the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee see them
                quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                Catholics? No.
                Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they are so
                versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                discuss
                *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                agreed, are
                *no longer in force*.

                They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper "Does
                Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to pounding
                into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer in force*?
                The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not a list
                about Russian Church History.

                Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP documents ...
                unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                opinion of those who have, like our bishops.


                --
                Aleksandr A Andreev
                Duke University
                aleksandr.andreev@...
                http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil*
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin (Peter Andreev) wrote:

                  > Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
                  > did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
                  > Or was it planned?

                  JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had
                  already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil* divorce.

                  It was only then that he took monastic vows: he had held out hope for a time that she
                  would return.

                  What the laws were in Soviet Estonia concerning civil divorces at that time, I do not know.
                  They may have been as liberal as in America today.

                  > Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife
                  > of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into
                  > the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even
                  >happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

                  JRS: The government did not take him into the army, because he was ordained to the
                  priesthood as previously scheduled: the divorce played no role in the matter.

                  It seems that the Red Army did not want priests (or seminarians) influencing the other
                  recruits.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  This document was sent to inform Fr.Stefan, Fr.John Shaw and those who without documented proof erroneously believe that St.John of Shangai and Holy
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
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                    This document was sent to inform Fr.Stefan, Fr.John Shaw and those who without documented proof erroneously believe that St.John of Shangai and Holy
                    Metr.Philaret commemorated Patr.Alexey at proskomedia.

                    Indeed why beat a dead horse when we have documents proving St.John of Shanghai did not recognize the MP, unless Patr.Alexey is deceitful and lied in his document.

                    That the MP dialogues and prays with heretics is nothing new. Their actions
                    show this. Nothing needs to be said. This is the reason many in ROCOR do not want any union with them at this time. The bishops joining the MP know this and will cause another schism in ROCOR. They will answer for their actions before GOD.

                    Michael N


                    Aleksandr Andreev <aleksandr.andreev@...> wrote: Mike Woodson wrote:
                    >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                    I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current
                    process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
                    like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                    Patriarchate. But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                    from the
                    "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them quoting from
                    the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee see them
                    quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                    Catholics? No.
                    Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they are so
                    versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                    discuss
                    *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                    agreed, are
                    *no longer in force*.

                    They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                    dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper "Does
                    Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to pounding
                    into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer in force*?
                    The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not a list
                    about Russian Church History.

                    Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP documents ...
                    unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                    opinion of those who have, like our bishops.

                    --
                    Aleksandr A Andreev
                    Duke University
                    aleksandr.andreev@...
                    http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/






                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • michael nikitin
                    So far as anyone has reported ...so noone really knows? I guess this means if the people don t buy it, the reporting will change until the right one is
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 10, 2006
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                      "So far as anyone has reported"...so noone really knows? I guess this means if the people don't buy it, the reporting will change until the right one is found.

                      He didn't get married in the MP? They ordained him while he was still married without considering his wife may come back and then he acquired a civilian divorce?

                      A Patriarch with a civilian marriage and not a "Church" marriage whose wife leaves after a few hours and before gaining a civilian divorce he gets ordained a priest sounds very strange. His whole life is strange. Most likely he isn't even baptized. Does anyone know?

                      Michael N

                      ps. Where is Patr.Alexey's II repentance? I can't find it on the ROCOR site.

                      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin (Peter Andreev) wrote:

                      > Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
                      > did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
                      > Or was it planned?

                      JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had
                      already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil* divorce.

                      It was only then that he took monastic vows: he had held out hope for a time that she
                      would return.

                      What the laws were in Soviet Estonia concerning civil divorces at that time, I do not know.
                      They may have been as liberal as in America today.

                      > Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife
                      > of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into
                      > the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even
                      >happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

                      JRS: The government did not take him into the army, because he was ordained to the
                      priesthood as previously scheduled: the divorce played no role in the matter.

                      It seems that the Red Army did not want priests (or seminarians) influencing the other
                      recruits.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw






                      ---------------------------------
                      Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Archpriest David Moser
                      ... Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position. I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two disabled Russian
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 15, 2006
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                        > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                        > us.

                        Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position.
                        I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two
                        disabled Russian children now for over two years. The problem is that
                        the judge (in Russia) has seen reports of a Russian child who was
                        adopted to the US and then abused and killed by his adoptive parents.
                        The judge is now categorically denying all American adoptions with no
                        regard for the qualifications of the prospective parents. We do have
                        some hope that this family will be able to complete their adoption,
                        but it is still far from a sure thing. Please pray for Stanislav and
                        Valeria and their hopefully adoptive parents Victor and Widna.

                        Archpr David Moser
                      • Mike Woodson
                        Dear Aleksandr, First, I didn t write what you ascribed to me below. You should go back and research the original post from which that language came and then
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 19, 2006
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                          Dear Aleksandr,

                          First, I didn't write what you ascribed to me below. You should go
                          back and research the original post from which that language came and
                          then address that person rather than manually truncate a message, put
                          my name with something someone else wrote, and then proceed on that
                          false basis. Let's not cross examine the wrong witness, Mr. Prosecutor
                          (You'll make a good one someday, a just one I'm sure). Please correct
                          that at your earliest.

                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Aleksandr Andreev
                          <aleksandr.andreev@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Mike Woodson wrote:
                          > >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?


                          No, I did not write the above.


                          > I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting
                          the current
                          > process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because
                          he and
                          > like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                          > Patriarchate.

                          Aleks, it is a logical fallacy to argue that if someone quotes from
                          one source or another, that means that they must support the views and
                          passions of the quoted source, rather than quoting them for some other
                          purpose or to illustrate something observed about their communications
                          and content.

                          Another logical error we must try to avoid is the straw man fallacy.
                          When I leave all of your comments in context by using the reply button
                          and not truncating your comments, and then respond to each of your
                          arguments in context, I find it helps to avoid the "straw man"
                          fallacy, and to avoid falsely quoting you or quoting you out of
                          context. This helps to avoid making arguments based on the false
                          assumptions implied by the partial or out-of-context quotes.

                          As for your assertion that I "love to quote from documents of the
                          Moscow Patriarchate," please find examples enough to support that
                          argument in my posts. As I recall writing my posts, I have quoted what
                          the MP has said, stated and released (and has not corrected) in the
                          government dominated presses of Russia versus what their
                          representatives have stated to our clergy by clergy report, written
                          statement etc., the "forked tongue" phenomena of the hydra, so to speak.

                          >But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                          > from the
                          > "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them
                          >quoting from
                          > the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee
                          see them
                          > quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                          > Catholics? No.

                          Aleks, for me to quote from these sources, there would have to be a
                          reason considering what I write in the next para. Why don't you quote
                          from them to support the propositions that you think they support, and
                          we can discuss that here on the forum.

                          I have found it more relevant to quote sources that deal directly with
                          the behavior of the MP, and the RF government, during their courtship
                          of the ROCOR. By annexing the credibility of the Russian Orthodox
                          Church Abroad and Outside Russia, the MP hopes to camouflage the
                          reality of its desire to bury the Mystery of Repentance.

                          Again and again, we hear what the MP has said, written or declared.
                          But it is more important to watch what it does and does not do. It
                          does not renounce nationalism, but embraces it. Fr. Justin Popovich
                          wrote: "It is now high time--the twelfth hour--time for our Church
                          representatives to cease being nothing but the servants of nationalism
                          and for them to become bishops and priests of the One, Holy, Catholic,
                          and Apostolic Church."

                          What happens? Patriarch Alexei II gave as his chief reason why the
                          "reconciliation" must occur now: the Russians outside of Russia and
                          their Church were losing their "Russianness." Nothing could be more
                          nationalistic than that call to nationalism as the purpose for
                          "reconciliation." This was consistent with Vladimir Putin's purpose
                          when he told us that Russia could not be united as a nation until the
                          Church "united." "Reconciliation" or "unification" are and were false
                          terms of propagandistic art that presupposed that the Church had been
                          divided (prevailed against) and mischaracterized the communion
                          suspension as a division rather than a prescription for healing the
                          wound that the MP was and is on the One Church without its officials'
                          full Repentance. At least offer to resign; even Don Rumsfeld has done
                          that.

                          From the MP perspective, "uniting" means severance of the Mystery of
                          Repentance from the Holy Mysteries (Communion) and the attempted
                          joining of Russian nationalism to the Holy Mysteries of Communion in
                          its place.

                          And Russian nationalism demands that genuine and unmitigated humility,
                          the hallmark of Repentance and Queen of Virtues, be glossed over so
                          that national unity may contain its strongest glue: National Pride.

                          So what we have is Pride telling the Church what to do. The Mystery of
                          Repentance belongs to Christ, and Vladimir Putin, nor any Churchman on
                          his behalf has no right under God to persuade or order the ROCOR to
                          turn it over to the MP and to the RF itself for the economy of
                          nationalism. Would you join God with mammon? No. So why this?


                          > Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they
                          are so
                          > versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                          > discuss
                          > *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                          > agreed, are
                          > *no longer in force*.

                          Documents do nothing if honesty is lacking. You see, a law doesn't
                          keep a government from arranging the death of a journalist, or from
                          coercing journalists into failing to report grave crimes in Russia
                          that might humble Russian nationalism as it is now using Western sins
                          to justify it's commandeering the One Russian Orthodox Church, and
                          killing journalists who point out Russian nationalist sins.

                          >
                          > They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                          > dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper
                          "Does
                          > Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to
                          pounding
                          > into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer
                          in force*?
                          > The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not
                          a list
                          > about Russian Church History.

                          Aleksandr, be advised: Metropolitan Sergius spoke for the Soviet
                          spirit at one time, and I certainly do not say that he always did
                          speak for that spirit. What I do say is that once that spirit had the
                          dagger point to his carotid-artery, he could make them look good with
                          all manner of spiritualized writings, which would also cause him to
                          feel a sense of personal relief that he could write those things,
                          because of the successive druggings and guilt-counter-guilt that was
                          imposed by his handlers and interrogators.

                          The regime wanted to be able to claim that here was the Metropolitan,
                          producing writings that did his USSR proud, not lacking in the "social
                          consciousness" of the Soviet "Socialist" Republic, and making it seem
                          tolerant of religions at once. Well, it had already subjugated the
                          religious life of all who labored under the USSR's iron yoke, and it
                          sculpted the modern MP from the bone and blood of the martyrs, so that
                          when the angel of light spoke over the peaceful subjugation, all
                          appeared calm, tranquil and resolved for a long time in the USSR
                          before its collapse. I don't see that as a holy calm, but one caused
                          by killing that many Russians did not know the extent or impact thereof.

                          Today, former USSR officials pretend to lead the One Russian Church in
                          a spiritual renewal to save their own official skins and re-acquire
                          power, their two chief concerns. Chief among the tasks the MP is
                          charged with is eliminating the ROCOR for the legitimacy of the
                          Russian Federation government of Vladimir Putin at home, and of his
                          powerbase's selected successors.

                          If the ROCOR were allowed to remain separate, it might again become a
                          voice of Holy Spiritual conscience against the regime's actions and
                          plans for Russia in the world. If it is defeated by this regime and
                          MP, it will cease to be a threat to the world, the flesh and the devil.


                          >
                          > Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP
                          documents ...
                          > unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                          > opinion of those who have, like our bishops.

                          Documents-schmokuments. It doesn't matter what amendatory things are
                          said or written; it matters what is done and not done in concert with
                          Holy scriptures and examples and teachings of the saints and holy
                          fathers that counts in the repentant stories that are published in the
                          Book of Life, or else the Church is now an institution of legalism; or
                          worse, magic, in which what is said or invoked justifies. God forbid.
                          What pleases God according to the prayer book we read? Faithful
                          actions consistent with the honoring of the Commandments and the Body
                          and Bride of the Lord Jesus Christ on which every spiritual Mystery
                          benefits people instead of harming them. What is the cornerstone of
                          our prayers? Repentance. What is that which the MP wishes to bury?
                          Repentance.

                          It doesn't matter what you say, or how many times you partake of the
                          Holy Mysteries: if you partake of them unto non-repentance and the
                          attempt to justify sinful passions such as nationalism, then what will
                          happen to you and that nation by the Fire of the Holy Mysteries? Are
                          high-flying nationalist emotions worth that?


                          > --
                          > Aleksandr A Andreev
                          > Duke University
                          > aleksandr.andreev@...
                          > http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/
                          >

                          Michael
                        • Mike Woodson
                          That Russian children are up for adoption to the world is a testimony to how for the past 15 years, the powerful elite who formerly ran the USSR and profited
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 19, 2006
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                            That Russian children are up for adoption to the world is a testimony
                            to how for the past 15 years, the powerful elite who formerly ran the
                            USSR and profited under it, have been destroying the Russian people
                            with their brand of false freedom without lawful due process, equal
                            protection, independent courts and such.

                            If Patriarch Alexei II and his officials are the conscience of the
                            actions of the government regarding expenditures for Russians, why is
                            this still the status quo that so many Russian babies are being put up
                            for adoption? It is because the Patriarch and those officials do not
                            care about the Russian people, but only about controlling them.

                            When the Russians finally figure this out and are no longer fooled by
                            the symbolism employed by the current RF/MP, hopefully the only folks
                            put up for adoption will be Pat. Alexei II, the Putin regime, their
                            supporting party machines, and the crime bosses. How does a country of
                            hungry, hardworking people throw off such corrupt and unworthy elites?

                            Michael



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                            <moserd@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                            > > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                            > > us.
                            >
                            > Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position.
                            > I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two
                            > disabled Russian children now for over two years. The problem is that
                            > the judge (in Russia) has seen reports of a Russian child who was
                            > adopted to the US and then abused and killed by his adoptive parents.
                            > The judge is now categorically denying all American adoptions with no
                            > regard for the qualifications of the prospective parents. We do have
                            > some hope that this family will be able to complete their adoption,
                            > but it is still far from a sure thing. Please pray for Stanislav and
                            > Valeria and their hopefully adoptive parents Victor and Widna.
                            >
                            > Archpr David Moser
                            >
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