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Re: How many have been to Russia?

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  • interestedplus
    Dear Dimitra and Sub-deacon Lawrence, I m a little confused about the points you are making. I oppose the unia of ROCA with the current MP for reasons that I
    Message 1 of 52 , Oct 2, 2006
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      Dear Dimitra and Sub-deacon Lawrence,

      I'm a little confused about the points you are making. I oppose the
      unia of ROCA with the current MP for reasons that I and many have
      described earlier, and yet the same arguments are constantly used
      against those in my position.

      It is precisely because I believe in Christ and the one Church He
      established that I (and many others) do not believe that the current
      MP - IE THE BISHOPS WHO ARE CURRENTLY LEADING part of the Russian
      Orthodox Church are canonical bishops, but are in schism due to their
      sergianist and ecumenical position and actions. Its not because I
      don't like their past, it is because I believe, also due to the
      information that they themselves have promoted and released in the
      last few years that they are heretical in their ideology.

      I also believe that the majority of faithful in Russia are true
      believers and belong to the Church. God be praised! I also believe
      that many do not know and understand the issues that make the MP
      heirarchs uncanonical, and many who do, have enough on their plates
      (with how rosey life is for the average believer in Russia) to be
      able to look at alternatives. I'm also basing this opinion on
      discussions I've had with clergy under the MP, with theology
      professors, having listened to Osipov's (well known theologist of the
      MP) lectures and discusssions with believers both from the MP and
      Catacomb Church.

      Dimitra asks have I been to Russia - no. My grandparents have several
      times, my mother in law and sister in law has, and many of my friends
      and aquaintances, including clergy and my Bishop - all of whom
      brought back different impressions that I very earnestly listened to.
      Based on all this and research I've done - trying to look at "both
      sides" of the argument, I find I've reached the conclusion I have
      after prayer and heartache.I would love to be able to sit on my
      conscience and "celebrate" to my heart's delight the "togetherness"
      with my Russian brothers and sisters in Christ. Euphoria is so much
      easier and more fun than the measure of sacrifice required as a
      result of a position of principle now in ROCA. But then I'd turn my
      back on the Truth and the One Who I worship as my Saviour. Can't do
      that.

      Dear Sub-deacon Lawrence, I know most ROCA churches are filled with
      descendants of Russians, just like most Anglican Churches are filled
      by descendants of English speakers. So? I want no ethnic club. I
      rejoice in a brother and sister in Christ from any background, and
      now with more native English speakers becoming Orthodox, I think its
      lovely that everyone have services in their native tongue to service
      congregations. Russians like all other ethnic groups have their
      ethinc baggage, history and collective nature, so its natural that
      this is visible to everyone just like our passionate and
      argumentative natures. The issue with the MP unia can desintegrate
      into ethnic arguments, but this is an emotional reaction and
      sidesteps the real issues. Those who are always spiritual and have no
      sin, can now throw stones....

      Those genuinely Orthodox have one primary goal, to stay in Christs
      Eternal Church, whether theyu are of Russian or English extraction.
      Do we want also to be "good" Russians or Americans or whatevers as
      well? Yes, as long as this is not in conflict with our faith. This is
      why I renounce Sergianism as a dangerous road of little compromises
      of faith, a slight shift of Christ slightly off-center in our
      existance and we are on the wide road leading to the feet of Anti-
      christ. No thanks.

      There is One Church, its not buildings, its not our colourful
      services, its not crowds or the mass elation of an audience in
      psychological concert - Anthony Roberts style. Its the faithful in
      mystical union with Christ (I love Homiekov's definition, he is an
      example of a Russian, who was a Christian first).

      God have mercy on us all at this difficult time for many.

      Alexandra

      Ps I'm sure I mispelt Homiekov and more....... ducking in expectation
      of the incoming stones,

      Alexandra


      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, larry most <larrymost2002@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      > Dear Elizabeth,
      > Thanks for an excellent post. Some of the Orthodox
      > don't want the Church, they want an ethnic club,
      > especially in Greek, Serbian, and Russian parishes.
      > Which is probably why I will soon be on my way to an
      > Antiochian parish, which is more Christ, than ethnic
      > stuff. I like all of ethnic things, but that is not
      > why I go to Church.
      > Love in Christ,
      > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
      >
      > --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Why do some people equate Orthodoxy with exclusion,
      > > division, walling-
      > > off, ghetto-ism and the idea that only exclusive
      > > small groups are
      > > able to "preserve" Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is not a
      > > cucumber that needs
      > > pickling, it is the Living Church! And Christ was
      > > clear in his
      > > dealings with the rule-book-thumping temple leaders
      > > of His day, and
      > > what He thought of their proud exclusivity.
      > >
      > > There are parts of NYS and NJ rife with orthodox of
      > > another kind,
      > > whose children are starting to resemble something
      > > out of that
      > > movie "Deliverance" because they are so exclusionary
      > > that their
      > > population has become inbred. Is that what we want
      > > in our Church?
      > >
      > > "Orthodoxy" *is* about trying to go back home -- to
      > > the Home of our
      > > Heavenly Father. It happens that the (relatively
      > > short!) history of
      > > ROCOR (note the NAME: RUSSIAN Orthodox Church
      > > OUTSIDE of RUSSIA)
      > > compels -- and has always anticipated -- the return
      > > of one part of
      > > the Russian Church (that part "Outside of Russia")
      > > to the other, when
      > > it is free of the Godless regime that forced the
      > > emigration of
      > > ROCOR's founders. It's just that, for so long, this
      > > seemed like an
      > > impossible dream, one that began to be forgotten.
      > >
      > > Those who speak of a change in ROCOR's "path" should
      > > recognize that
      > > the biggest change in ROCOR's historical path was
      > > the one that led
      > > to 'missionary' work and expansion in
      > > non-Russian-emigre communities.
      > > Those who think that ROCOR and Russia are not
      > > necessarily and/or
      > > ought not be linked, just don't understand the
      > > history beyond their
      > > own lifetimes and involvement. So it seems to me.
      > > Now, there are
      > > those who will disagree about how ROCOR and Russia
      > > should be linked,
      > > and I'm not talking about you right now (Volodia
      > > K.!!)...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Elizabeth
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, spiridon
      > > <text164@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > So I guess it is much about Ethnicity, and the
      > > embracing of
      > > the "Moscow Patriarch" is all about russian
      > > heritage, right? what
      > > about Orthodox Christianity, why does it have to be
      > > compromised
      > > because of ethnicity and russians trying to go back
      > > home- you are
      > > free to go back home anytime you want, and you can
      > > leave Orthodox
      > > right here, we will preserve it , our numbers might
      > > be few, but it
      > > will preserve it...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > DDD <dimitradd@> wrote:
      > > > On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:13:32 -0000, Fr.
      > > John R. Shaw
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > " Many of them used to look forward to a day when
      > > they could "go
      > > > home": back to Russia, when the Soviet regime
      > > would collapse, and
      > > > the old order be restored."
      > > >
      > > > snip
      > > >
      > > > " But the biggest problem is that several
      > > generations have now
      > > > intervened since the revolution and the flight of
      > > the "White
      > > > Emigration" that became ROCOR.
      > > >
      > > > The offspring, or grandchildren of the emigres,
      > > usually never have
      > > > lived in Russia, never saw the old Russia, knew
      > > the life of the
      > > > Russian Church before these disputes, or
      > > experienced Soviet rule."
      > > >
      > > ____________________________________________________
      > > >
      > > > DD: Which brings up a question: How many of those
      > > who are opposed
      > > to reunification or communion with the Church in
      > > Russia (MP, that is)
      > > have actually been to Russia? Visited Russian (MP)
      > > churches and
      > > monasteries? Spoken with clergy and faithful?
      > > >
      > > > (No editorial here, would just like to know if
      > > people have their
      > > opinions based on what they have seen, or based on
      > > what they have not
      > > seen.)
      > > >
      > > > --Dimitra
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
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      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
      Message 52 of 52 , Oct 6, 2006
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear George,
        Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully
        thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
        this same subject today, and we remembered that the
        priest at the Church that we attended for over 20 year
        was a wonderful holy man (he is the priest that
        Chrismated our family into the Orthodox Church from
        the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. He passed away
        last month and we went to his funeral. We remembered
        today in talking, that his Matushka (Kathleen) never
        wore a scarf or hat and quite often wore slacks to
        Church, yet she was probably one of the best priests
        wives ever. I never encountered this clothing
        "problem" until we began attending the local ROCOR
        parish in Atlantic Mine. Then on this and other
        groupes it was heavily debated. To me it is spending
        energy on something that could be spent on something
        else. I guess,if you want to enforce a dress code,
        that is your choice, but don't be surprised if you
        have nearly empty churches.
        I wish all of the Churches that fret about what to
        wear, all the best. I have other things to worry
        about.
        The same for all of the old calendar churches in the
        US. If you can get the other jurisdictions to go back,
        great. I'll be a happy man. If not, good luck in
        spreading the good news of Orthodoxy.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

        > Larry Writes:
        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > Dear George,
        > I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
        > think about what you wrote.
        > Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the
        > "proper
        > ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
        > is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is
        > quite
        > a different story.
        >
        > I respond:
        > I think it can be a problem for new comers though I
        > suspect we disagree on what that means. That said
        > the first Orthodox church I went to, and was
        > baptised into was fairly liberal on such things.
        > They were also new calendar, had pews etc. Great
        > church, and great folks there too.
        >
        > Larry continues:
        > I have found the Church and I CAN
        > live with all of that, but newcomers come, look ,
        > and
        > LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
        > exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
        > idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
        > way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen
        > hours
        > of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot
        > of
        > "dressing up".
        >
        > I respond:
        > What I said was that folks should dress respectfully
        > when going to 'Gods House'. It's a straw man to ask
        > 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows
        > what clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and
        > which they where to an important event to show
        > respect. At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or
        > shirts with holes in them. It doesn't take much to
        > know that to show respect for God AT LEAST the same
        > should standard should apply and yes it different
        > for different folks. Either way it behooves the
        > church to at least remind folks that there are some
        > commandments regarding prayer and attire that they
        > should ponder.
        >
        > In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to
        > borrow a wrap around skirt and wear the head scarf
        > she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants,
        > before they'd let her visit the church. I can see
        > some debate as to whether the church should REQUIRE
        > this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it
        > by having a sign reminding folks of this, and having
        > scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for those
        > unprepared but interested in following these
        > commandments.
        >
        > That said young people in Russia are no
        > encyclopedias of Church tradition. There are many
        > who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm
        > sure you've seen. I didn't see anyone dressing down
        > when I went to church there though. I will say that
        > there needs to be more of an effort there to infom
        > folks of these tradtions and how one typically
        > conducts themselves in church. Many young people
        > were baptised post 1992 but know little about these
        > things. (The proposed basic Orthodox Culture
        > classes in Russia would probably do this).
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > Maybe you know more than I do.
        > There's nothing disrespectful about actually
        > enjoying
        > Liturgy.
        > I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going
        > to
        > DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
        > and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
        >
        >
        > I respond:
        > Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing,
        > and didn't say much at all about Feasts, and basic
        > respect is in play too. My freinds birthday is a
        > celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying
        > but that doesn't mean I pick whatever off the floor
        > to wear for that either. Further one should respect
        > other at liturgy by not wearing something
        > distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY the liturgy
        > too; they've turned it into an R&B concert. Frankly
        > I find that disrespectful also.
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > As far as the old calendar not working, you are
        > right.
        > It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi
        > who
        > have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use
        > it.
        > The new calendar never should have gotten started
        > but
        > here it is.
        > It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
        > staring at us it has to do with celebrating days
        > with
        > our families and friends. If you like the Old
        > Calendar
        > fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
        > The Church has done everything for me and I try to
        > do
        > all that I can for the church.
        > I just do the best that I can.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        >
        > I respond:
        > As I said I think its more about motivation with the
        > calendar. I don't really see anything bad about
        > having double the feastdays in the year, and often
        > observe some twice (attending the local new calendar
        > parish one day and the old calendar parish on the
        > other).
        >
        > You're other post and this one seems very concered
        > with new folks.
        >
        > I orginally attended a presbyterian church my
        > parents still attend. I was never baptised but did
        > go regurally as a child. Sunday school was a party
        > but not real informative. Dress was casual. Heck
        > pretty much everything was casual.
        >
        > If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to
        > an Orthodox parish I probably would have written off
        > the church as just the same ol same ol.
        >
        > The protestants have made an art out of making
        > church fun, and casual and it hasn't exactly worked
        > out great for them.
        >
        > I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if
        > the rationale is making it easier for folks to come
        > to the church by lessening what the church is that's
        > dangerous thinking. Sooner or latter the baby gets
        > thrown out with the bathwater.
        >
        > George
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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