Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: How many have been to Russia?

Expand Messages
  • George Edward Green III
    Larry Writes: GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because actually I love Russian tradition.
    Message 1 of 52 , Oct 2, 2006
      Larry Writes:
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      Dear George,
      It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because
      actually I love Russian tradition. What it has to do
      with is "tone" or attitude. The Russian churches seem
      to be pre-occupied with "form". Is this done "right"
      do you dress in a "proper" way. Are you doing all the
      "right" things, etc. If a kid comes into Church in a
      pair of jeans, especially a girl "O My Gosh, the sky
      will fall". And apparently to Russians, God has no
      sense of humour.

      I respond:
      I do not see how showing a disrespect for God is humorous, nor do I see how expecting folks to show a basic respect for God during Liturgy is an 'obsession with form'. Folks should dress up as it shows respect for God and for the Liturgy. I don't see a down side to reminding folks of God's commandments in 1st Corinthians at the door either.

      Larry Writes:
      The Church we are "migrating" to has
      very little of that. The folks dress casually, but the
      whole congregation is enthusiastic in the responses
      during the liturgy.

      I respond:
      The last time I heard rhetoric like this it was in regard to an athnusiasm which apparently only manifests itself on Sundays, as the church in question was unconcerned with observing feast days, or vespers.

      Larry Writes:
      They have things for kids to do
      and it is a much more relaxed atmosphere. They do a
      few things I don't really care for, but hey, nothings
      going to be perfect. Also, my family has always used
      the "new calendar", and for us the old calendar
      dosen't work.

      I respond:
      I'm always skeptical of folks who say the calendar doesn't 'work' for them. Christians observing the Feast days should 'work' for the Church, not the other way around. That said I at least hope the church you're migrating to enthusastically celebrates the New Calendar feast days.

      As for kids I can think of a lot of things they need in any sort of educational setting. A solid education, engaging content, a reliable teacher, a degree of dicipline to keep classes focused and useful; a 'relaxed atmosphere' not being one of them, and children need to be educated about the church. There's a time and place for fun and games, but the liturgy is not that place.

      Larry writes:
      All of our other Orthodox friends are
      always 13 days ahead of us, not just Christmas, but
      everyother feast day. In Michigan there are only a
      hand full of Orthodox Churches on old calendar. I know
      this sounds terrible and awful, but I like to LOVE God
      and His Church, not TREMBLE AND FEAR it. That's why
      I'm going to the Antiochain Church, it is more like
      the "old country", MY old country.
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

      I respond:
      This should at least be more about how you use your calendar, not when. If you're only reason for prefering the new calender is not having protestants and Catholics gawk on Christmas that's pretty shallow.

      Larry writes:
      PS. At St. Marys Church, it is almost all "natives"
      aka Americans and they actually invite not yet
      Orthodox kids to their outings.
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

      I respond:
      This seems like an implication that the 'ethnic' churches are anti-bringing-non-orthodox-to-the-faith. Personally, and I wasn't even baptised into the church until I was in my 20s, whenever my non-Orthodox freinds make a confused face at why I'm celebrating Easter or Christmas late, I take the chance to tell them to stop by and see the Orthodox church and see whether they might be interested to learn more. I think it's a lot more important that non-orthodox are invited to consider Orthodoxy than to have a full soccer team at a church sponsored picnic.

      All in all your response seems to have a lot more 'what can the church do for ME on this Earth' and too little 'what can I do for the church which isn't of this earth'.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
      Message 52 of 52 , Oct 6, 2006
        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear George,
        Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully
        thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
        this same subject today, and we remembered that the
        priest at the Church that we attended for over 20 year
        was a wonderful holy man (he is the priest that
        Chrismated our family into the Orthodox Church from
        the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. He passed away
        last month and we went to his funeral. We remembered
        today in talking, that his Matushka (Kathleen) never
        wore a scarf or hat and quite often wore slacks to
        Church, yet she was probably one of the best priests
        wives ever. I never encountered this clothing
        "problem" until we began attending the local ROCOR
        parish in Atlantic Mine. Then on this and other
        groupes it was heavily debated. To me it is spending
        energy on something that could be spent on something
        else. I guess,if you want to enforce a dress code,
        that is your choice, but don't be surprised if you
        have nearly empty churches.
        I wish all of the Churches that fret about what to
        wear, all the best. I have other things to worry
        about.
        The same for all of the old calendar churches in the
        US. If you can get the other jurisdictions to go back,
        great. I'll be a happy man. If not, good luck in
        spreading the good news of Orthodoxy.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

        > Larry Writes:
        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > Dear George,
        > I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
        > think about what you wrote.
        > Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the
        > "proper
        > ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
        > is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is
        > quite
        > a different story.
        >
        > I respond:
        > I think it can be a problem for new comers though I
        > suspect we disagree on what that means. That said
        > the first Orthodox church I went to, and was
        > baptised into was fairly liberal on such things.
        > They were also new calendar, had pews etc. Great
        > church, and great folks there too.
        >
        > Larry continues:
        > I have found the Church and I CAN
        > live with all of that, but newcomers come, look ,
        > and
        > LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
        > exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
        > idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
        > way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen
        > hours
        > of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot
        > of
        > "dressing up".
        >
        > I respond:
        > What I said was that folks should dress respectfully
        > when going to 'Gods House'. It's a straw man to ask
        > 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows
        > what clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and
        > which they where to an important event to show
        > respect. At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or
        > shirts with holes in them. It doesn't take much to
        > know that to show respect for God AT LEAST the same
        > should standard should apply and yes it different
        > for different folks. Either way it behooves the
        > church to at least remind folks that there are some
        > commandments regarding prayer and attire that they
        > should ponder.
        >
        > In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to
        > borrow a wrap around skirt and wear the head scarf
        > she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants,
        > before they'd let her visit the church. I can see
        > some debate as to whether the church should REQUIRE
        > this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it
        > by having a sign reminding folks of this, and having
        > scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for those
        > unprepared but interested in following these
        > commandments.
        >
        > That said young people in Russia are no
        > encyclopedias of Church tradition. There are many
        > who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm
        > sure you've seen. I didn't see anyone dressing down
        > when I went to church there though. I will say that
        > there needs to be more of an effort there to infom
        > folks of these tradtions and how one typically
        > conducts themselves in church. Many young people
        > were baptised post 1992 but know little about these
        > things. (The proposed basic Orthodox Culture
        > classes in Russia would probably do this).
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > Maybe you know more than I do.
        > There's nothing disrespectful about actually
        > enjoying
        > Liturgy.
        > I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going
        > to
        > DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
        > and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
        >
        >
        > I respond:
        > Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing,
        > and didn't say much at all about Feasts, and basic
        > respect is in play too. My freinds birthday is a
        > celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying
        > but that doesn't mean I pick whatever off the floor
        > to wear for that either. Further one should respect
        > other at liturgy by not wearing something
        > distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY the liturgy
        > too; they've turned it into an R&B concert. Frankly
        > I find that disrespectful also.
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > As far as the old calendar not working, you are
        > right.
        > It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi
        > who
        > have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use
        > it.
        > The new calendar never should have gotten started
        > but
        > here it is.
        > It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
        > staring at us it has to do with celebrating days
        > with
        > our families and friends. If you like the Old
        > Calendar
        > fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
        > The Church has done everything for me and I try to
        > do
        > all that I can for the church.
        > I just do the best that I can.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        >
        > I respond:
        > As I said I think its more about motivation with the
        > calendar. I don't really see anything bad about
        > having double the feastdays in the year, and often
        > observe some twice (attending the local new calendar
        > parish one day and the old calendar parish on the
        > other).
        >
        > You're other post and this one seems very concered
        > with new folks.
        >
        > I orginally attended a presbyterian church my
        > parents still attend. I was never baptised but did
        > go regurally as a child. Sunday school was a party
        > but not real informative. Dress was casual. Heck
        > pretty much everything was casual.
        >
        > If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to
        > an Orthodox parish I probably would have written off
        > the church as just the same ol same ol.
        >
        > The protestants have made an art out of making
        > church fun, and casual and it hasn't exactly worked
        > out great for them.
        >
        > I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if
        > the rationale is making it easier for folks to come
        > to the church by lessening what the church is that's
        > dangerous thinking. Sooner or latter the baby gets
        > thrown out with the bathwater.
        >
        > George
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        http://mail.yahoo.com
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.