Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Acronyms and You

Expand Messages
  • poolsineyes
    Can someone in the know please take a moment to answer my question regarding open repentance? Thank you, Amber Franklin
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Can someone in the know please take a moment to answer my question
      regarding open repentance?

      Thank you,

      Amber Franklin

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes" <poolsineyes@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Can someone please tell me what is meant when someone writes ROCA?
      >
      > Also, many posters keep calling for open repentance of Soviet
      > dealings...is this precedented? Is it 'normal' for bishops or anyone
      > else for that matter to repent of something outside of the counsel of
      > one's spiritual fater?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
    • poolsineyes
      Thank you Fr for your time. So is ROCA synonymous with ROCOR or is it meant as a more general term, (unlike ROCiE, which has broken from ROCOR, correct?)?
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 2, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you Fr for your time. So is ROCA synonymous with ROCOR or is it
        meant as a more general term, (unlike ROCiE, which has broken from
        ROCOR, correct?)?

        Thank you again,

        Amber

        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
        <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes"
        > <poolsineyes@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Can someone please tell me what is meant when someone writes ROCA?
        > >
        > ___________________________
        >
        > ROCA
        >
        > R ussian
        > O othodox
        > C hurch
        > A broad
        >
        > also known as:
        >
        > ROCOR- Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia
        > ROCIE- Russian Orthodox Church in Exile (name taken now by
        > Mansonville groupings ROCiE-V,)
        >
        > ROCA is also known by just "Church Abroad"
        > or "Synod" (Synod of Bishops)
        >
        > And the pejorative title "Karlovatskii Raskol"
        > or simply "Karlovchanye", from Sremski Karlovci, Serbia where the
        > Church Abroad was once headquartered.
        > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        >
      • Mike Woodson
        ROCA, as I understand it, means Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. Open repentance was the way of the early Church, and in extraordinary circumstances, such as
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 5, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          ROCA, as I understand it, means Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.

          Open repentance was the way of the early Church, and in extraordinary
          circumstances, such as the iconoclasm. For example, Patriarch Paul
          stepped down from his patriarchy as repentance for his involvement
          with iconoclasm during a Church council.

          Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
          hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

          Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
          systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
          of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
          that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

          What does that mean? It does not necessarily mean detailed
          confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
          A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
          Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
          the Soviet regime to be promoted. There was a quid pro quo to keep
          power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
          ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

          Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
          the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
          kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

          I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
          just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

          Michael


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes" <poolsineyes@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Can someone in the know please take a moment to answer my question
          > regarding open repentance?
          >
          > Thank you,
          >
          > Amber Franklin
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "poolsineyes" <poolsineyes@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Can someone please tell me what is meant when someone writes ROCA?
          > >
          > > Also, many posters keep calling for open repentance of Soviet
          > > dealings...is this precedented? Is it 'normal' for bishops or anyone
          > > else for that matter to repent of something outside of the counsel of
          > > one's spiritual fater?
          > >
          > > Thank you.
          > >
          >
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious. First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the situation of the Church had become
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
            wrote:

            > Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
            > hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

            > Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
            > systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
            > of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
            > that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

            JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.

            First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the situation of the Church had
            become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).

            The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its pressure was felt everywhere
            in that country.

            Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to serve
            the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They could only live and
            function in the country they were born in.

            To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.

            > What does that mean? It does not necessarily mean detailed
            > confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
            > A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
            > Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
            > the Soviet regime to be promoted. There was a quid pro quo to keep
            > power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
            > ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

            JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there must be bishops in the
            Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so out of "a passion for
            power-seeking" is not warranted.

            But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could not be consecrated
            without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?

            > Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
            > the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
            > kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

            JRS: More nonsense.

            More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate have been
            consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.

            Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been quietly retired (or
            not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).

            But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and if they were all to
            step down, who would take their places?

            The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and anyone in Russia
            who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or less.

            > I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
            > just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

            JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that Patriarch Alexy II did ask
            public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate, back in 1991, and that
            the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our hierarchy as a satisfactory
            rejection of Sergianism.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • michael nikitin
            Fr.John wrote: Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to serve the Church, there was no choice of what regime to serve
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Fr.John wrote:
              "Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to serve the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They could only live and function in the country they were born in."


              MN: That is exactly the problem. How can anyone knowing the MP was a tool
              of the Soviets, want to become a bishop or priest, knowing he will have to serve
              the Godless Soviets not the Church. The MP being a front for the Soviets.

              The bishops ordained after 1991 grew up and were nourished by the Soviets.
              The people were forbidden to be taught about religion and were persecuted.

              Could Fr.John please show us where Patr.Alexey II asked forgiveness? I couldn't find it on the ROCOR site. I would imagine such an important document would be front page on the ROCOR site.

              Why is this so-called repentance not on the ROCOR site?

              There was NO REPENTANCE, that's why.


              "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
              wrote:

              > Also, is there precedent for a regime that has murdered and imprisoned
              > hundreds of millions of its own people as the USSR had done?

              > Reason dictates that the a regime so thoroughly evil as to
              > systematically murder and imprison millions on millions of the people
              > of God, and anyone who came to and ascended in religious offices under
              > that regime's control, should do active and open repentance.

              JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.

              First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the situation of the Church had
              become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).

              The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its pressure was felt everywhere
              in that country.

              Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union, and wanted to serve
              the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under". They could only live and
              function in the country they were born in.

              To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.

              > What does that mean? It does not necessarily mean detailed
              > confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
              > A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
              > Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
              > the Soviet regime to be promoted. There was a quid pro quo to keep
              > power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
              > ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.

              JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there must be bishops in the
              Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so out of "a passion for
              power-seeking" is not warranted.

              But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could not be consecrated
              without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?

              > Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
              > the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
              > kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?

              JRS: More nonsense.

              More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate have been
              consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.

              Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been quietly retired (or
              not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).

              But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and if they were all to
              step down, who would take their places?

              The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and anyone in Russia
              who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or less.

              > I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
              > just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I understand it.

              JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that Patriarch Alexy II did ask
              public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate, back in 1991, and that
              the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our hierarchy as a satisfactory
              rejection of Sergianism.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw






              ---------------------------------
              Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mike Woodson
              Dear. Fr. John: See responses below. ... situation of the Church had ... pressure was felt everywhere ... and wanted to serve ... They could only live and ...
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear. Fr. John:

                See responses below.


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                >
                > JRS: The flaw in that reasoning should be obvious.
                >
                > First, the evil regime lasted from 1917 till 1991 (although the
                situation of the Church had
                > become easier after 1985, under Gorbachev).
                >
                > The evil regime ruled the largest country in the world, and its
                pressure was felt everywhere
                > in that country.
                >
                > Consequently, if someone was born or grew up in the Soviet Union,
                and wanted to serve
                > the Church, there was no choice of "what regime to serve under".
                They could only live and
                > function in the country they were born in.
                >
                > To demand "active and open repentance" for that, is absurd.


                This argument made by Father John assumes that one could not serve the
                church as a layperson outside of the clerical orders of the Soviet
                church. It assumes that there was no church to serve under unless you
                joined the Soviet-controlled clergy; a falsehood. It assumes that
                Reidiger (sp) did not know that a career as a clergyman would involve
                an ordination subject to atheism's priorities over one's governing
                hierarchy. It assumes that he could not have worked somewhere else
                for a living. It assumes a false choice. Unless the Soviets forced
                Reidiger into the clergy, he chose to be among the Soviet-controlled
                clergy. How could he rise to prominence as an Archbishop if he were
                not a favored aide to the Soviet government? How could he be ordained
                following a divorce unless it were a Soviet, or otherwise
                ill-motivated ordination? What other example of a holy hierarch is
                there in the Orthodox Churches who divorced as an Orthodox Christian
                immediately before seeking the priesthood? Of course there is
                forgiveness and extenuating circumstances re: divorce, but is it
                fitting for one ordained into holy offices? Or would such an
                ordination be another way that the USSR could denigrate the Church, or
                keep it secularized, by imitating secular standards of doing things?
                Shouldn't there be a difference?

                >
                > > What does that mean? It does not necessarily mean detailed
                > > confessions to the public at large, but public action in repentance.
                > > A person who climbed the ladder within the MP in Soviet times as
                > > Patriarch Alexei II and his colleagues did, had to collaborate with
                > > the Soviet regime to be promoted. There was a quid pro quo to keep
                > > power, suggesting a passion for power-seeking in such persons who were
                > > ordained and promoted under Soviet rule.
                >
                > JRS: Hardly. The Church cannot function without clergy, and there
                must be bishops in the
                > Orthodox Church. To say that anyone who inherited a throne did so
                out of "a passion for
                > power-seeking" is not warranted.
                >
                > But what of those who were bishops in the Russian Empire? They could
                not be consecrated
                > without the Tsar's approval. Does that mean they were "power-seekers"?


                The Czar, you fail to point out, was not an atheist authority.
                Therefore, no, power-seeking wouldn't be the usual motive under a
                spiritual Czar, however, earthly power seeking is the only possible
                result of promotion under an atheist authority, since there is nothing
                spiritual from God in it to seek.


                >
                > > Should the penance for sins of power-seeking and keeping be at least
                > > the relinquishment of that abused power? Or is the penance for a
                > > kleptomaniac, for example, to remain in their bank teller positions?
                >
                > JRS: More nonsense.
                >
                > More than half (i.e. most) of the bishops of the Moscow Patriarchate
                have been
                > consecrated since the fall of communism in Russia.


                . . and ordained and promoted prior to the Bishop's office before the
                fall of the USSR as an external form of government. Your point
                ignores the impact of almost 90 years of Soviet programming and
                cultural revision, as if the spirit beneath atheism and genocide
                against the church just suddenly disappeared in 1991. That is the real
                nonsensical and magical thinking written here today, Fr. John.

                > Of those who remain from before that time, a good number have been
                quietly retired (or
                > not so quietly, in the case of Philaret of Kiev).
                >
                > But there are over 150 bishops in the Russian Orthodox Church, and
                if they were all to
                > step down, who would take their places?

                Well, think of it: those Bishops from before the spiritually arbitrary
                but politically significant date of 1991 were quietly retired; and if
                so, why not Patriarch Alexei II also?

                Who would replace the Bishops? How about those who meet the
                qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture? How about
                spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
                Christ? In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
                are such pious people among the Russians. In fact, most arguments
                trying to justify this premature lift on the medicinal communion
                suspension always emphasize the piety of the humble Russian people
                because you and others in your movement know that it is such people
                that are needed to legitimize the rascals who have remained in the
                Moscow Patriarchate's offices from Soviet career to Russian Federation
                career.

                And now we have no Czar in Russia, but instead another secular
                authoritarian, and the MP officials are acting like Russia's back to
                normal. The truth is, you hate Czarist Russia or else you wouldn't
                attack it so much as a defense of the Sovietists in the MP; and, in
                support of the status quo's legitimization by aggressive RF pursuit of
                the ROCA's stamp of canonical approval on the MP. To the secular
                pragmatists running Russia now, Czars imply very inconvenient
                loyalties to spiritual ideals, and some argue that they are too
                tempted to myopic abuse of power. I would argue that the genuine
                loyalty to spiritual priorities in truly Czarist government would be
                the one thing that checks abuse of power, whereas with the politicians
                of hypocritical authoritarianism in power now, little checks them.

                Can there be a democratic socialist government with an anointed Czar
                in Russia that would work in Orthodox Christian diligence and glory to
                God? I'll bet an imperfect shot at it could be made, and that would
                be enough. God would do the rest to bring all of that corruption,
                mercenariness and temptation to the more unsavory outer influences of
                world capitalism to the confessional and hopefully out of the hearts
                of Russians and many who see them as a future spiritual example to
                follow, somewhat as is felt about the Amish this past week and more
                so. Holiness evangelizes, afterall, not frequent,
                super-organizational church involvements and globe-trotting junkets by
                hierarchs. That's the corporate, worldly networking and marketing
                model that is hollowing out hearts everywhere.


                > The Church Abroad is very short of bishops and candidates today; and
                anyone in Russia
                > who was born after the fall of communism, would be 15 years old or
                less.

                If administrative convenience mattered more than spiritual strength,
                I'd listen to that argument. It doesn't. If the beauty of the services
                depended on human performance, I'd believe you. It doesn't. I believe
                God provides. Besides, the issue is not when the candidates were born,
                but when they were ordained. In some cases now, I suspect that the
                passionate pressure exerted by you and others to keep the Sovietists
                in the MP suggests that the spirit of Sovietism is not dead, and
                perhaps more "true nationalistic believers" will be produced to man
                the Patriarchate and keep the church in service to the state.

                From slavery to slavery the rulers of the Russian people place the
                Russians, and you call those who oppose their elitist, non-egalitarian
                agenda "Russophobic"? On the contrary: God save the Russians from
                their current governing elites. Out with the old and in with the new,
                or else no real metanoia will come of 1991.

                >
                > > I hope you see the main point that repentance is action counter to not
                > > just the sin, but to the passions underlying them, or so I
                understand it.
                >
                > JRS: In all of these comments, you have overlooked the fact that
                Patriarch Alexy II did ask
                > public forgiveness for all the actions of the Moscow Patriarchate,
                back in 1991, and that
                > the decisions of the Moscow Sobor of 2000 are accepted by our
                hierarchy as a satisfactory
                > rejection of Sergianism.

                Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

                If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
                guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind if they refocused
                on the fact that St. John Maximovitch (being the saint he was later
                beautified and confirmed to be) wrote that repentance for Moscow
                Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                office in imitation of the Patriarch Paul who has collaborated with
                the iconoclasts? Why seek his guidance on an issue and assume it was
                given invisibly when St. John had already written visibly the exact
                guidance they needed? Remember the Lord said, "why do you say Lord,
                Lord but do not what I say?"

                >
                > In Christ
                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                >

                Deferring to the Lord Jesus Christ,

                Michael
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops. Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a bishop, and said,
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Who would replace the Bishops? How about those who meet the
                  > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture? How about
                  > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
                  > Christ? In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
                  > are such pious people among the Russians.

                  JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.

                  Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a bishop, and said,
                  "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

                  And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such difficulty finding
                  them in ROCOR?

                  Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to be several dioceses;

                  no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;

                  no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was the next most
                  important See after the Metropolitan;

                  no bishop in England;

                  no bishop in Austria;

                  no Bishop of Seattle,

                  no Bishop of Boston;

                  no bishop of Los Angeles.

                  Why?

                  > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

                  JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to ordinations that took place from
                  1917 to 1991.

                  Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?

                  Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?

                  > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
                  > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...

                  JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.

                  > if they refocused
                  > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for Moscow
                  > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                  > office ...

                  JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated the
                  Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  Fr.John wrote: JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia. MN: Fr. John, you are
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Fr.John wrote:
                    JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

                    MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
                    St. John already took a stand against MP in China.

                    Please read below:

                    http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-confirmation.html

                    EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS

                    Of Moscow And All Russia

                    to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR

                    TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:

                    The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
                    Mission according to reports received from his Grace
                    the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
                    Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.

                    Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
                    12, 1946.

                    IT IS DECREED:

                    1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
                    Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
                    Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
                    Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
                    Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
                    the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.

                    2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
                    the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
                    with his request a sufficient number of priests be
                    transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
                    to replace those priests who have not recognized the
                    jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
                    – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
                    and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
                    Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
                    Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
                    Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
                    decree.

                    ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

                    Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
                    Patriarchate
                    13 June, 1946






                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Who would replace the Bishops? How about those who meet the
                    > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture? How about
                    > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
                    > Christ? In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed that there
                    > are such pious people among the Russians.

                    JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.

                    Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a bishop, and said,
                    "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

                    And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such difficulty finding
                    them in ROCOR?

                    Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to be several dioceses;

                    no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;

                    no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was the next most
                    important See after the Metropolitan;

                    no bishop in England;

                    no bishop in Austria;

                    no Bishop of Seattle,

                    no Bishop of Boston;

                    no bishop of Los Angeles.

                    Why?

                    > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.

                    JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to ordinations that took place from
                    1917 to 1991.

                    Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?

                    Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?

                    > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
                    > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...

                    JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.

                    > if they refocused
                    > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for Moscow
                    > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                    > office ...

                    JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always commemorated the
                    Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw






                    ---------------------------------
                    Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    Why do you ignore Saint John s own account of what he did and why he did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a matter of record. Other
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 6, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
                      did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
                      matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
                      just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko





                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                      <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Fr.John wrote:
                      > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                      commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
                      >
                      > MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
                      > St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
                      >
                      > Please read below:
                      >
                      > http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-
                      confirmation.html
                      >
                      > EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS
                      >
                      > Of Moscow And All Russia
                      >
                      > to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR
                      >
                      > TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:
                      >
                      > The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
                      > Mission according to reports received from his Grace
                      > the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
                      > Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.
                      >
                      > Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
                      > 12, 1946.
                      >
                      > IT IS DECREED:
                      >
                      > 1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
                      > Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
                      > Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
                      > Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
                      > Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
                      > the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.
                      >
                      > 2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
                      > the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
                      > with his request a sufficient number of priests be
                      > transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
                      > to replace those priests who have not recognized the
                      > jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
                      > – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
                      > and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
                      > Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
                      > Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
                      > Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
                      > decree.
                      >
                      > ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
                      >
                      > Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
                      > Patriarchate
                      > 13 June, 1946
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                      wrote: --- In orthodox-
                      synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > Who would replace the Bishops? How about those who meet the
                      > > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture? How about
                      > > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
                      > > Christ? In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed
                      that there
                      > > are such pious people among the Russians.
                      >
                      > JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
                      >
                      > Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be
                      made a bishop, and said,
                      > "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?
                      >
                      > And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had
                      such difficulty finding
                      > them in ROCOR?
                      >
                      > Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used
                      to be several dioceses;
                      >
                      > no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
                      >
                      > no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
                      the next most
                      > important See after the Metropolitan;
                      >
                      > no bishop in England;
                      >
                      > no bishop in Austria;
                      >
                      > no Bishop of Seattle,
                      >
                      > no Bishop of Boston;
                      >
                      > no bishop of Los Angeles.
                      >
                      > Why?
                      >
                      > > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping
                      down.
                      >
                      > JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
                      ordinations that took place from
                      > 1917 to 1991.
                      >
                      > Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?
                      >
                      > Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
                      >
                      > > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF
                      for
                      > > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
                      >
                      > JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.
                      >
                      > > if they refocused
                      > > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance
                      for Moscow
                      > > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                      > > office ...
                      >
                      > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                      commemorated the
                      > Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... JRS: They ignore the facts, because HOCNA is a church of lies. It was founded on lies, and it survives only by lies and deception.
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 7, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                        <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
                        > did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
                        > matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
                        > just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.

                        JRS: They ignore the facts, because HOCNA is a church of lies.

                        It was founded on lies, and it survives only by lies and deception.
                      • michael nikitin
                        Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw, is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie? Michael N Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 7, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw,
                          is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                          Michael N


                          Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June 12, 1946.
                          IT IS DECREED:

                          1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
                          Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
                          Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
                          Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
                          Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
                          the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.

                          2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
                          the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
                          with his request a sufficient number of priests be
                          transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
                          to replace those priests who have not recognized the
                          jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
                          – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
                          and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
                          Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
                          Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
                          Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
                          decree.

                          ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia

                          Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
                          Patriarchate
                          13 June, 1946


                          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote: Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
                          did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
                          matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
                          just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
                          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                          --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, michael nikitin
                          <nikitinmike@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Fr.John wrote:
                          > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                          commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
                          >
                          > MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
                          > St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
                          >
                          > Please read below:
                          >
                          > http://www.holy- trinity.org/ ecclesiology/ shahovskoy-
                          confirmation. html


                          ---------------------------------
                          Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mike Woodson
                          Dear Fr. John: See responses below. ... bishop, and said, ... That not all pious people are meant to be Bishops is a very good point, Fr. John. If they were,
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 7, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Fr. John:

                            See responses below.


                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                            wrote:
                            > JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
                            > Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be made a
                            bishop, and said,
                            > "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?

                            That not all pious people are meant to be Bishops is a very good point,
                            Fr. John. If they were, there would be no pious people left in the rest
                            of the Church.
                            And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
                            Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
                            the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has taught,
                            "He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
                            thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
                            this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering comes
                            from divorce and broken families?

                            Knowing this, will you pray to the Lord Jesus Christ to show you how
                            Orthodox Christian men can divorce their wives and be Bishop's too? The
                            WCC no doubt has more suggestions for revisions from the revolutionary
                            versions of the Holy Bible which aren't really the Holy Bible. Would you
                            like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and revise the
                            Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step down?
                            Is it all about him, or about faithfulness to God's Living Word, the
                            Lord Jesus Christ?

                            Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
                            Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried, but I am really focusing on
                            his adultery with the Soviet state against the Lord Jesus Christ in the
                            name of His Bride the Church (slandering the Church) and now, with the
                            Russian Federation, yet another false lover. How long will you support
                            the spiritual adultery of state intrusion into the sanctuaries of the
                            Bride of Christ?

                            It seems to me that the few notables who have ever suggested abrogation
                            of the adultery commandment were Jane Fonda's ex-husband Ted Turner, the
                            Marquis de Sade, and perhaps a few of the dark Popes of the Middle Ages.
                            They're all impious, so should we ordain them as Bishops to sin more
                            that grace may abound? God forbid, Fr. John, the Bishop shortage
                            notwithstanding.





                            > And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had such
                            >difficulty finding
                            > them in ROCOR?



                            The Apostle Paul once said, "Ye have many teachers, but ye have not many
                            fathers in Christ." And then he gave thanks that he hadn't baptized more
                            people, citing the immense responsibility involved and what others might
                            make of it. How many people do you know who volunteer to be a Bishop, or
                            who send in their resume hoping to get the job?

                            Do you really want those priests who desire to be Bishops (e.g. the
                            former 'Fr. Benedict' aka Samuel A. Greene, Jr., the registered child
                            sex offender who used to proclaim himself Bishop and Exarch of some
                            faux-jurisdiction) rather than those who are immersed in the business of
                            spiritual living and reluctantl to upset that balance to expand it to
                            service as a Bishop? Perhaps few are qualified to do this because there
                            are so few spiritual examples for them to follow today, in which case
                            the problem is the lack of examples of leadership by exampledue to the
                            preoccupations of this day and age.

                            Who are the priests imitating who dwell on the internet and engage in
                            questionable disputations? Do you need a for-instance of questionable
                            disputation?

                            You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
                            Holy Mysteries. However, are not a large number of priests able to be
                            equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock throughout
                            the world with the Holy Mysteries? Are you saying that priests cannot
                            project the Bishop's services far and wide to help the people of the
                            world? I thought that's one reason why the functional priesthood came to
                            be in the first place -- Bishops could not physically be everywhere at
                            once, and so few were qualified to be Bishops, the +dispersed+ and less
                            corruptible numerosity of priests seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to
                            the Apostolic successors to send out. What a great plan God gave in his
                            priesthood.




                            > Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used to
                            > be several dioceses;
                            >
                            > no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
                            >
                            > no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
                            > the next most
                            > important See after the Metropolitan;
                            >
                            > no bishop in England;
                            >
                            > no bishop in Austria;
                            >
                            > no Bishop of Seattle,
                            >
                            > no Bishop of Boston;
                            >
                            > no bishop of Los Angeles.
                            >
                            > Why?


                            Perhaps God would have us wait on Him for that answer. But that doesn't
                            satisfy your masters, does it? I can think of many reasons why. And
                            yet, why should you ask me such a question when God knows and reigns for
                            you to consult?





                            > > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping down.
                            >
                            > JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
                            ordinations that took place from

                            > 1917 to 1991.

                            Isn't ordination a spiritual decision led by the Holy Spirit and not
                            something that people throw into the discussion bin on the internet as
                            "serious alternatives" as if it were . . a . . government decision?
                            Well, maybe for your camp, it is. But the Apostle Paul discussed
                            ordination with a much more spiritual tone, putting spiritual
                            qualifications first.

                            Haven't you said that many seminaries, churches and the like are being
                            built by the government in Russia? Perhaps these developments are a
                            preparation for a time when the Soviet-ordained Moscow Patriarchate
                            officials will have finally repented in action and stepped down so that
                            a spiritual Church rebirth may actually occur rather than the
                            administrative rebirth of the MP's willpower exerted abroad. The sooner
                            the better. Perhaps this is the time of preparation.

                            All that are needed are a 'few good men' so to speak who can train
                            others (e.g. surviving clergy and members of catacomb churches in
                            Russia, some willing priests in the ROCOR - please no apparatchiks of
                            Moscow's current MP), and the pious Russian people we so often talk
                            about on this forum can assist in the elections by advising on the
                            genuiness of their priests. The Lord Himself started with 12. Do you
                            require some better model than His to get things done? Or will you
                            continue sticking with the Moscow Patriarchate's way of doing things?




                            > Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?



                            As discussed above, this is a false alternative.



                            > Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
                            >
                            > > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF for
                            > > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
                            >
                            > JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.



                            Yes, you said Vladyka, Vladyka, or Master, Master, but have you heeded
                            what the Saint wrote about what repentance in the Moscow Patriarchate
                            officialdom would look like? You have not answered that. He specified
                            in no uncertain terms what it would mean: their stepping down.

                            It seems to me that many sought answers from the Lord Jesus Christ who
                            were referred to the law and prophets for their answers. If they would
                            not listen to them, they would not listen to the Lord Jesus Christ, it
                            seemed. And if you would not heed what St. John wrote when he was here,
                            why pray to him for guidance? Was there a confirmed miracle following
                            that prayer tantamount to a white dove landing on Patriarch Alexei II's
                            head and saying, this is the leader of the One Russian Church with whom
                            I am well-pleased, hear ye him? I doubt it, and also, whether the saint
                            would write something diametrically opposed to that view.

                            Or rather, were the desires and passions of the MP fulminating themselvs
                            in a cloud of false consultation to legitimize its full court press by
                            using the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF to win the hearts and
                            minds of our hierarchs through their lobbyist clergy in the ROCOR? Based
                            on the MP's record, this seems unfortunately likely.



                            > > if they refocused
                            > > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance for
                            Moscow
                            > > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                            > > office ...
                            >
                            > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                            commemorated the
                            > Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.


                            It appears this assertion of yours is in some dispute with the document
                            brought to our attention by Mr. Nitikin.

                            If your representation were taken as true, isn't it so that many people
                            are commemorated at the Proskomidia and it doesn't necessarily mean they
                            are in good spiritual health or should lead the One Russian Church
                            because of it? How do we know that St. John Maximovitch was not praying
                            for the freeing of the Patriarch's office, or commemorating the
                            legitimate Patriarch in Heaven's eyes, or the repentance of the one
                            holding it? All of these seem more likely considering what St. John
                            wrote later, and with who he is.





                            >
                            > In Christ
                            > Fr. John R. Shaw
                            >




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • antiquariu@aol.com
                            In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:01:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nikitinmike@yahoo.com writes: Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw, is the document below from
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 7, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:01:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              nikitinmike@... writes:

                              Frs. Stefan Pavlenko and John Shaw,
                              is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                              Michael N




                              You know, Michael, in addition to beating a dead horse until you're blue in
                              the face, you are also somewhat ignorant of the facts. The document is dated
                              1946. Patriarch Aleksej II was not even thinking about patriarching at that
                              time. Surely this was his predecessor?

                              Love in Christ, but enough already,

                              Vova H.





                              Thankyou for your translation workorder! ALS appreciates the opportunity to
                              serve. Please come visit us at our corporate headquarters in the heart of
                              Virginia's beautiful Hunt Country.

                              Sincerely,

                              Werner Saemmler-Hindrichs
                              Director of Operations
                              ALS, Inc!

                              "Your global language solution!"

                              Salem House
                              Marshall, VA 20115
                              1-540-364-9041
                              1-703-832-0692 24 hour fax


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Fr. John R. Shaw
                              ... JRS: I am just amazed by the amount of verbiage you can turn out. I, for one, believe that a simple and clear answer can be given in relatively few words.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 8, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                                wrote:

                                > See responses below.

                                JRS: I am just amazed by the amount of verbiage you can turn out.

                                I, for one, believe that a simple and clear answer can be given in relatively few words.

                                > And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
                                > Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
                                > the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has taught,
                                > "He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
                                > thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
                                > this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering comes
                                > from divorce and broken families?

                                JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?

                                Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.

                                > Would you
                                > like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and revise the
                                > Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step down?

                                JRS: The Scriptures do not call on Christian clergy to "step down".

                                > Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
                                > Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried ...

                                JRS: The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had deserted him
                                immediately after the wedding.

                                Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.

                                > You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
                                > Holy Mysteries. However, are not a large number of priests able to be
                                > equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock throughout
                                > the world with the Holy Mysteries?

                                JRS: There still must be bishops in order for there to be priests, and there must be priests
                                for the Holy Mysteries to be available.

                                There are about 150 MP bishops, as opposed to many thousands of priests.

                                But you did not complain of the "large number" of bishops. You said that it was wrong to
                                become a bishop in the USSR.

                                That would have applied to any bishop.

                                In Christ
                                Fr. John R. Shaw
                              • Mike Woodson
                                ... Thanks Fr. John. Well, when you re untangling so many tangled webs, and trying to be civil, it takes more words than expected. You don t have that
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 8, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  ---- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                                  <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                  > JRS: I am just amazed by the amount of verbiage you can turn out.


                                  Thanks Fr. John. Well, when you're untangling so many tangled webs,
                                  and trying to be civil, it takes more words than expected. You don't
                                  have that problem, as words of destruction and lies are easier to
                                  promote and leave ticking on the internet than words of diagnosis,
                                  analysis and prescriptive attempts to help sort out a government
                                  effort to acquire a Church abroad it cannot afford to leave free and
                                  have its agenda too.


                                  > I, for one, believe that a simple and clear answer can be given in
                                  > relatively few words.


                                  When it comes to the sort of propaganda that you have been promoting,
                                  simple, clear and repetitive messages do work best. It's doctrine.

                                  Also, rather than quote all of what is said and deal with the merits,
                                  I noticed that you quote short pieces out of context and then attack
                                  them as straw men. It's easier for you that way, however unsound and
                                  fallacious it is.


                                  >
                                  > > And would you agree that impious people are not normally meant to be
                                  > > Bishops whose offices would be established on impiety, for example, on
                                  > > the divorce of a marriage about which the Lord Jesus Christ has
                                  taught,
                                  > > "He who divorces his wife causes her to commit adultery"? And he who
                                  > > thereafter marries again commits adultery too? What sort of example is
                                  > > this to the flock and to the world in an age when untold suffering
                                  comes
                                  > > from divorce and broken families?
                                  >
                                  > JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?
                                  >
                                  > Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.
                                  >
                                  > > Would you
                                  > > like to ask God to make it Nine Commands instead of Ten, and
                                  revise the
                                  > > Holy Scriptures so that Patriarch Alexei II does not have to step
                                  down?
                                  >
                                  > JRS: The Scriptures do not call on Christian clergy to "step down".


                                  They also do not say that a person ought to go on serving in a state
                                  of unrepentant sin, do they? Isn't it true that one of the fathers
                                  wrote that we will not be condemned for our sin, but for giving up on
                                  repentance? Would you say that abuse of power that damages the church
                                  is a sin? Is rendering to a government what belongs to God a sin? And
                                  if so, the repentance for abusing power is giving it up, just as the
                                  repentance for alcoholism is giving up alcohol.


                                  >
                                  > > Maybe you think I'm talking about the adultery impliedly caused by
                                  > > Reidiger's divorce if his ex-wife remarried ...
                                  >
                                  > JRS: The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had
                                  > deserted him
                                  > immediately after the wedding.
                                  >
                                  > Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.


                                  Interesting that you should focus on that and defend it, since I
                                  pointed out which adultery (Reidiger/Alexei II/Drozdov's spiritual
                                  adultery with the atheist state) I was referring to. Maybe the woman
                                  who ran from the altar was informed that she had to by her husband's
                                  KGB groomers? But I noticed you omitted that and sidestepped the
                                  inconvenient situation that you have been defending. Even so, if you
                                  are talking about Reidiger's divorce, it is odd that you would have
                                  the detailed personal circumstances of that remote event from
                                  Soviet-filtered history, and so well-memorized. MP talking points do
                                  get around.


                                  > > You imply that a shortage of Bishops means a necessary scarcity of the
                                  > > Holy Mysteries. However, are not a large number of priests able to be
                                  > > equipped by even a few Bishops to prepare and feed the flock
                                  throughout
                                  > > the world with the Holy Mysteries?
                                  >
                                  > JRS: There still must be bishops in order for there to be priests,
                                  and there must be priests
                                  > for the Holy Mysteries to be available.


                                  Right. And there are Bishops, and enough to ordain priests. And by
                                  ordaining them, there will be enough priests to make the Holy
                                  Mysteries available. It is not the problem you make of it, however, it
                                  serves the MP for you to argue it, and so you argue it dutifully.

                                  Maybe you want MP Bishops to move in and help the ROCOR with its
                                  Bishop shortage?


                                  > There are about 150 MP bishops, as opposed to many thousands of
                                  priests.
                                  >
                                  > But you did not complain of the "large number" of bishops. You said
                                  that it was wrong to
                                  > become a bishop in the USSR.

                                  Not all Bishops have been agents run by the KGB or FSB as Patriarch
                                  Alexei II and other top MP officials were / are. I suppose that is a
                                  case by case situation to be dealt with by the Russian Church, it
                                  people and parishes. Russian citizens can help figure out who is and
                                  who isn't a former agent. A truly pro-Russian government that
                                  releases all of the old Committee for State Security records would
                                  help too. But they are still concealed, because they speak of
                                  officials currently in power in the MP and RF. Who else might they
                                  speak of Fr. John?

                                  Being an agent was one thing, simply cooperating with bureaucratic
                                  impositions, another. It seems that the Lord would expect the Church
                                  to do her best in these matters, realizing that at least 1/12 may be a
                                  traitor to her. Fortunately, even those can repent, if they would.


                                  > That would have applied to any bishop.


                                  Not necessarily, see above.


                                  > In Christ
                                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                  >

                                  Michael
                                • Mike Woodson
                                  For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider: Moscow writer s peers skeptical of probe By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 8, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

                                    Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe

                                    By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago

                                    MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
                                    afoul of government officials or their business and political partners.

                                    Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
                                    reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
                                    of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
                                    Chechnya.

                                    As the
                                    European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
                                    contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
                                    would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
                                    of journalists in Russia under President
                                    Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
                                    post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.

                                    The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
                                    that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
                                    investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
                                    produced so few prosecutions before.

                                    "Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
                                    journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
                                    executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists.

                                    Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
                                    investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
                                    Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.

                                    She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
                                    since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
                                    deadly country for journalists, after
                                    Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
                                    Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
                                    opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.

                                    Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
                                    dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been found.

                                    Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
                                    killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
                                    train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
                                    Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.

                                    Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
                                    elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
                                    and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.

                                    Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
                                    was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
                                    Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
                                    metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.

                                    Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing —
                                    because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
                                    found — but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.

                                    "It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
                                    investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
                                    Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
                                    Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
                                    death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
                                    journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
                                    important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
                                    government policies."

                                    Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
                                    elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
                                    Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
                                    the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
                                    abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
                                    security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
                                    and torture.

                                    Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
                                    revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.

                                    In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
                                    criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
                                    the kidnapping of two civilians — an ethnic Russian and a Chechen —
                                    who were tortured and killed.

                                    Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people — including the
                                    Russian military — with her investigative reporting and human rights
                                    advocacy.

                                    Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
                                    investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
                                    coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.

                                    "We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
                                    people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
                                    told Ekho Moskvy radio.

                                    Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
                                    journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
                                    Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
                                    magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
                                    of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
                                    ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
                                    year.

                                    Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
                                    Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
                                    placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.

                                    Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
                                    murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
                                    erupted last week.

                                    Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
                                    Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."


                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                                    <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Why do you ignore Saint John's own account of what he did and why he
                                    > did it. He gave a report on his actions in China and they are a
                                    > matter of record. Other peoples spin on his actions and motives are
                                    > just that, spin...he explained himself quite clearly.
                                    > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                                    > <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Fr.John wrote:
                                    > > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                                    > commemorated the Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
                                    > >
                                    > > MN: Fr. John, you are mixing St. John Maximovitch with yourself.
                                    > > St. John already took a stand against MP in China.
                                    > >
                                    > > Please read below:
                                    > >
                                    > > http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/shahovskoy-
                                    > confirmation.html
                                    > >
                                    > > EDICT OF HIS PATRIARCHAL HOLINESS
                                    > >
                                    > > Of Moscow And All Russia
                                    > >
                                    > > to his Grace the Archbishop of Peking and China VICTOR
                                    > >
                                    > > TAKEN UNDER CONSIDERATION:
                                    > >
                                    > > The status of Church affairs in the Chinese Spiritual
                                    > > Mission according to reports received from his Grace
                                    > > the Archbishop of China VICTOR and his Grace the
                                    > > Metropolitan of Harbin NESTOR.
                                    > >
                                    > > Journal number 15 assigned by the Holy Synod on June
                                    > > 12, 1946.
                                    > >
                                    > > IT IS DECREED:
                                    > >
                                    > > 1. That in accordance with the request of his Grace
                                    > > Archbishop Victor that Bishop Juvenal (formerly of
                                    > > Qiqihar) be appointed at the discretion of Archbishop
                                    > > Victor as the replacement for the cathedra of the
                                    > > Archbishop of Shanghai John, who does not recognize
                                    > > the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate.
                                    > >
                                    > > 2. To propose to his Grace Metropolitan Nestor that at
                                    > > the discretion of Archbishop Victor and in accordance
                                    > > with his request a sufficient number of priests be
                                    > > transferred from the East Asian Exarchate to Shanghai
                                    > > to replace those priests who have not recognized the
                                    > > jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate, specifically
                                    > > – if they so agree – Archimandrites Philaret,** Joseph
                                    > > and Benjamin, Archpriests Rostislav Gan and Simeon
                                    > > Novosiltsev and Deacon Gorelkin, advocated by his
                                    > > Grace Archbishop Victor. To inform Metropolitan
                                    > > Nestor, Archbishop Victor and Bishop Juvenal of this
                                    > > decree.
                                    > >
                                    > > ALEKSEY, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia
                                    > >
                                    > > Protopresbyter N. KOLCHITSKY, Chancellor of the Moscow
                                    > > Patriarchate
                                    > > 13 June, 1946
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@>
                                    > wrote: --- In orthodox-
                                    > synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@>
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Who would replace the Bishops? How about those who meet the
                                    > > > qualifications as set forth in the Holy Scripture? How about
                                    > > > spiritual men whose motivation in to serve in the free Church of
                                    > > > Christ? In all of our disagreements, we have not disagreed
                                    > that there
                                    > > > are such pious people among the Russians.
                                    > >
                                    > > JRS: First of all, not all pious people are meant to be bishops.
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps you recall that St. Sergius of Radonezh declined to be
                                    > made a bishop, and said,
                                    > > "Pache mery moeja est delo sije"?
                                    > >
                                    > > And if new bishops were so easy to find, why have we long had
                                    > such difficulty finding
                                    > > them in ROCOR?
                                    > >
                                    > > Currently we have no bishops in South America, where there used
                                    > to be several dioceses;
                                    > >
                                    > > no bishops in Canada, where there used to be two;
                                    > >
                                    > > no Bishop (or Archbishop) of Washington and Florida, and that was
                                    > the next most
                                    > > important See after the Metropolitan;
                                    > >
                                    > > no bishop in England;
                                    > >
                                    > > no bishop in Austria;
                                    > >
                                    > > no Bishop of Seattle,
                                    > >
                                    > > no Bishop of Boston;
                                    > >
                                    > > no bishop of Los Angeles.
                                    > >
                                    > > Why?
                                    > >
                                    > > > Repentance is action, not words alone. It involves stepping
                                    > down.
                                    > >
                                    > > JRS: You still have not provided any serious alternative to
                                    > ordinations that took place from
                                    > > 1917 to 1991.
                                    > >
                                    > > Do you think the Church should get by without clergy?
                                    > >
                                    > > Without the Eucharist, without Chrism, without Holy Matrimony?
                                    > >
                                    > > > If our SOBOR prayed at the tomb of St. John of Shanghai and SF
                                    > for
                                    > > > guidance in 2006, would they not change their mind ...
                                    > >
                                    > > JRS: In fact, they (we) did indeed pray at his tomb.
                                    > >
                                    > > > if they refocused
                                    > > > on the fact that St. John Maximovitch ... wrote that repentance
                                    > for Moscow
                                    > > > Patriarchate officials would take the form of stepping down from
                                    > > > office ...
                                    > >
                                    > > JRS: You ignore the fact that St. John Maximovitch himself always
                                    > commemorated the
                                    > > Patriarch of Moscow at the Proskomidia.
                                    > >
                                    > > In Christ
                                    > > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • frraphver
                                    I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at least non-students)
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of
                                      school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at
                                      least non-students) walk into a school and begin shooting down
                                      everyone in sight. This has happened now both in Canada & the USA. In
                                      the most recent incident an extremely disturbed man walked into a
                                      Christian school and shot a number of little girls before turning the
                                      gun on himself.

                                      If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                                      be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                                      us. Those in the MP would be having the equivalent on the internet of
                                      these conversations: "if you had the eyes to see you'd realize those
                                      demon westerners can't be trusted. They're all violent & irrational
                                      beasts."

                                      Well maybe they'd have a point.

                                      But as for being Orthodox Christians where the focus is supposed to be
                                      on healing, having sympathy & seeing yourself as worse than others
                                      rather than judgemental condemnation...

                                      Well, we already know Russian Orthodox Christians are praying for us.

                                      So maybe there's something for us to learn from.

                                      In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack

                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
                                      <singingmountains@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:
                                      >
                                      > Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe
                                      >
                                      > By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
                                      >
                                      > MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
                                      > afoul of government officials or their business and political partners.
                                      >
                                      > Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
                                      > reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
                                      > of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
                                      > Chechnya.
                                      >
                                      > As the
                                      > European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
                                      > contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
                                      > would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
                                      > of journalists in Russia under President
                                      > Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
                                      > post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.
                                      >
                                      > The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
                                      > that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
                                      > investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
                                      > produced so few prosecutions before.
                                      >
                                      > "Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
                                      > journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
                                      > executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect
                                      Journalists.
                                      >
                                      > Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
                                      > investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
                                      > Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.
                                      >
                                      > She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
                                      > since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
                                      > deadly country for journalists, after
                                      > Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
                                      > Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
                                      > opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.
                                      >
                                      > Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
                                      > dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been found.
                                      >
                                      > Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
                                      > killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
                                      > train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
                                      > Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.
                                      >
                                      > Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
                                      > elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
                                      > and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.
                                      >
                                      > Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
                                      > was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
                                      > Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
                                      > metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.
                                      >
                                      > Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing —
                                      > because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
                                      > found — but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.
                                      >
                                      > "It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
                                      > investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
                                      > Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
                                      > Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
                                      > death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
                                      > journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
                                      > important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
                                      > government policies."
                                      >
                                      > Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
                                      > elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
                                      > Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
                                      > the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
                                      > abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
                                      > security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
                                      > and torture.
                                      >
                                      > Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
                                      > revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.
                                      >
                                      > In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
                                      > criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
                                      > the kidnapping of two civilians — an ethnic Russian and a Chechen —
                                      > who were tortured and killed.
                                      >
                                      > Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people — including the
                                      > Russian military — with her investigative reporting and human rights
                                      > advocacy.
                                      >
                                      > Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
                                      > investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
                                      > coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.
                                      >
                                      > "We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
                                      > people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
                                      > told Ekho Moskvy radio.
                                      >
                                      > Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
                                      > journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
                                      > Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
                                      > magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
                                      > of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
                                      > ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
                                      > year.
                                      >
                                      > Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
                                      > Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
                                      > placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.
                                      >
                                      > Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
                                      > murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
                                      > erupted last week.
                                      >
                                      > Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
                                      > Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      ... JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them. In Christ Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

                                        JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them.

                                        In Christ
                                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      • Mike Woodson
                                        Fr. Raphael, You are missing the point. You and everyone in Russia know about the criminal events that occur in the US because they get reported. It s an ethos
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Fr. Raphael,

                                          You are missing the point. You and everyone in Russia know about the
                                          criminal events that occur in the US because they get reported. It's
                                          an ethos built up over time here.

                                          However, it takes a Beslan for them to get reported to the world from
                                          Russia or its acquisitions, because the media is owned by presidential
                                          friends and others with conflicts of interest against objective public
                                          justice.

                                          Start reporting the crimes of the Russian street, and then talk to me
                                          about sympathy. You have to have honesty before sympathy can heal.
                                          Without honesty, the Mystery of Repentance is not present.

                                          By saying Putin enables crimes against journalists and probably winks
                                          at them doesn't mean he can't repent of it. However, to continue the
                                          charade that he's a pious Orthodox Christian and foist that on the
                                          Church Abroad and the world is a cynical and unhelpful error.

                                          Michael


                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I know what you mean. Here recently there have been a whole string of
                                          > school shootings. As part of a new phenomenon total strangers (or at
                                          > least non-students) walk into a school and begin shooting down
                                          > everyone in sight. This has happened now both in Canada & the USA. In
                                          > the most recent incident an extremely disturbed man walked into a
                                          > Christian school and shot a number of little girls before turning the
                                          > gun on himself.
                                          >
                                          > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                                          > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                                          > us. Those in the MP would be having the equivalent on the internet of
                                          > these conversations: "if you had the eyes to see you'd realize those
                                          > demon westerners can't be trusted. They're all violent & irrational
                                          > beasts."
                                          >
                                          > Well maybe they'd have a point.
                                          >
                                          > But as for being Orthodox Christians where the focus is supposed to be
                                          > on healing, having sympathy & seeing yourself as worse than others
                                          > rather than judgemental condemnation...
                                          >
                                          > Well, we already know Russian Orthodox Christians are praying for us.
                                          >
                                          > So maybe there's something for us to learn from.
                                          >
                                          > In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack
                                          >
                                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson"
                                          > <singingmountains@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:
                                          > >
                                          > > Moscow writer's peers skeptical of probe
                                          > >
                                          > > By JUDITH INGRAM, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 35 minutes ago
                                          > >
                                          > > MOSCOW - Russia has become a deadly place for journalists who run
                                          > > afoul of government officials or their business and political
                                          partners.
                                          > >
                                          > > Those behind the killings, though, are rarely brought to justice,
                                          > > reinforcing a sense of impunity that may have encouraged the killers
                                          > > of Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in
                                          > > Chechnya.
                                          > >
                                          > > As the
                                          > > European Union and the U.S. demanded a thorough probe into Saturday's
                                          > > contract-style killing, there was skepticism that the authorities
                                          > > would ever uncover the culprits of the latest in a series of killings
                                          > > of journalists in Russia under President
                                          > > Vladimir Putin, who has been increasingly accused of rolling back
                                          > > post-Soviet freedoms since coming to power in 2000.
                                          > >
                                          > > The skepticism was underlined by the $929,700 reward for information
                                          > > that Novaya Gazeta has offered, signaling stronger faith in their own
                                          > > investigative efforts than those promised by the government, which has
                                          > > produced so few prosecutions before.
                                          > >
                                          > > "Russia is a uniquely hostile place for the execution of independent
                                          > > journalism. It is both violent and repressive," said Joel Simon,
                                          > > executive director of the New York-based Committee to Protect
                                          > Journalists.
                                          > >
                                          > > Politkovskaya's editors said she had been due to publish an
                                          > > investigative article on Monday about torture and kidnappings in
                                          > > Chechnya based on witness accounts and photos of tortured bodies.
                                          > >
                                          > > She was at least the 43rd journalist killed for her work in Russia
                                          > > since 1993, according to CPJ, which has ranked Russia the third most
                                          > > deadly country for journalists, after
                                          > > Iraq and Algeria. Many were killed while reporting on the two wars in
                                          > > Chechnya, and six were caught up in fighting between government and
                                          > > opposition forces in Moscow in 1993.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many more appear to have been targeted because of their attempts to
                                          > > dig into allegations of corruption. The killers have rarely been
                                          found.
                                          > >
                                          > > Dmitry Kholodov, a reporter who investigated military corruption, was
                                          > > killed in October 1994 when a briefcase he had picked up at a Moscow
                                          > > train station following an anonymous call blew up in his office.
                                          > > Colleagues said he had been told it contained evidence.
                                          > >
                                          > > Six men charged in the killing, including four former members of an
                                          > > elite paratroops unit, were acquitted in two separate trials, in 2002
                                          > > and 2004; the Russian Supreme Court upheld those rulings in June 2005.
                                          > >
                                          > > Natalya Skryl, a business reporter for Nashe Vremya in Rostov-on-Don,
                                          > > was beaten over the head in March 2002 and died the next day.
                                          > > Colleagues said she had been investigating a dispute over control of a
                                          > > metals plant, and that was the most probable reason for her murder.
                                          > >
                                          > > Investigators initially excluded robbery as a motive in the killing �
                                          > > because she had jewelry and a large sum of cash on her when she was
                                          > > found � but later ruled the opposite, according to CPJ.
                                          > >
                                          > > "It is extremely important to break the circle of inconclusive
                                          > > investigations in regard of the recent murders of journalists in
                                          > > Russia," said Miklos Haraszti, the media freedom advocate of the
                                          > > Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. "The violent
                                          > > death of any member of the media stifles the free spirit of
                                          > > journalism. But in this case, the expediency of action is extremely
                                          > > important also because Anna Politkovskaya was an outspoken critic of
                                          > > government policies."
                                          > >
                                          > > Suspicion in the killing of Politkovskaya, whose body was found in the
                                          > > elevator in her apartment building on Saturday, has fallen on the
                                          > > Moscow-backed Chechen strongman Ramzan Kadyrov. Politkovskaya, one of
                                          > > the few Russian journalists writing about widespread human rights
                                          > > abuses in Chechnya, had been a persistent critic of Kadyrov, whose
                                          > > security forces are alleged to be involved in widespread abductions
                                          > > and torture.
                                          > >
                                          > > Novaya Gazeta said on its Web site it believed her murder was either
                                          > > revenge by Kadyrov or an attempt to discredit him.
                                          > >
                                          > > In a recent radio interview, Politkovskaya said she was a witness in a
                                          > > criminal case against Kadyrov concerning his alleged involvement in
                                          > > the kidnapping of two civilians � an ethnic Russian and a Chechen �
                                          > > who were tortured and killed.
                                          > >
                                          > > Politkovskaya also angered other powerful people � including the
                                          > > Russian military � with her investigative reporting and human rights
                                          > > advocacy.
                                          > >
                                          > > Novaya Gazeta said Sunday its reporters would conduct their own
                                          > > investigation, and it called Politkovskaya's slaying revenge for her
                                          > > coverage of Chechnya, which included the story planned for Monday.
                                          > >
                                          > > "We never got the article, but she had evidence about these (abducted)
                                          > > people and there were photographs," Deputy Editor Vitaly Yerushensky,
                                          > > told Ekho Moskvy radio.
                                          > >
                                          > > Politkovskaya's death was the most high-profile slaying of a
                                          > > journalist in Russia since the July 2004 assassination of Paul
                                          > > Klebnikov, the U.S.-born editor of the Russian edition of Forbes
                                          > > magazine. That crime was believed linked to Klebnikov's investigation
                                          > > of the murky business world in Russia but remains unresolved; two
                                          > > ethnic Chechens accused of carrying it out were acquitted earlier this
                                          > > year.
                                          > >
                                          > > Dozens of well-wishers came to lay flowers outside the entrance to
                                          > > Politkovskaya's apartment block in downtown Moscow on Sunday and
                                          > > placed flowers and candles outside the newspaper offices.
                                          > >
                                          > > Hundreds meanwhile rallied in Moscow's Pushkin Square to protest her
                                          > > murder as well as the Russian crackdown on Georgians since a spy row
                                          > > erupted last week.
                                          > >
                                          > > Underneath a photograph of Politkovskaya, one poster read: "The
                                          > > Kremlin has killed freedom of speech."
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • michael nikitin
                                          Fr.John wrote: JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce? ... Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey s II wife
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Fr.John wrote:
                                            JRS: Translation: Does the Church permit divorce?
                                            > Answer: Yes, under specific circumstances.
                                            > The divorce was initiated by his wife of a few hours, who had
                                            > deserted him immediately after the wedding.
                                            > Consequently, he cannot be blamed for it.

                                            Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

                                            Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
                                            did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
                                            Or was it planned?

                                            Who was to blame if the Church gave his wife the divorce she requested...
                                            or does the MP follow the Latins and now annul marriages?

                                            JRS: "It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them."

                                            Indeed!

                                            Michael N


                                            "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Woodson" <singingmountains@...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > For those who have eyes, Rev. Fr. Stephan, consider:

                                            JRS: It takes more than eyes: one must have a willingness to open them.

                                            In Christ
                                            Fr. John R. Shaw






                                            ---------------------------------
                                            Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Aleksandr Andreev
                                            ... I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Mike Woodson wrote:
                                              >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                                              I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current
                                              process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
                                              like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                                              Patriarchate. But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                                              from the
                                              "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them quoting from
                                              the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee see them
                                              quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                                              Catholics? No.
                                              Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they are so
                                              versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                                              discuss
                                              *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                                              agreed, are
                                              *no longer in force*.

                                              They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                                              dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper "Does
                                              Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to pounding
                                              into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer in force*?
                                              The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not a list
                                              about Russian Church History.

                                              Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP documents ...
                                              unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                                              opinion of those who have, like our bishops.


                                              --
                                              Aleksandr A Andreev
                                              Duke University
                                              aleksandr.andreev@...
                                              http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/
                                            • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                              ... JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil*
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin (Peter Andreev) wrote:

                                                > Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
                                                > did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
                                                > Or was it planned?

                                                JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had
                                                already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil* divorce.

                                                It was only then that he took monastic vows: he had held out hope for a time that she
                                                would return.

                                                What the laws were in Soviet Estonia concerning civil divorces at that time, I do not know.
                                                They may have been as liberal as in America today.

                                                > Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife
                                                > of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into
                                                > the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even
                                                >happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

                                                JRS: The government did not take him into the army, because he was ordained to the
                                                priesthood as previously scheduled: the divorce played no role in the matter.

                                                It seems that the Red Army did not want priests (or seminarians) influencing the other
                                                recruits.

                                                In Christ
                                                Fr. John R. Shaw
                                              • michael nikitin
                                                This document was sent to inform Fr.Stefan, Fr.John Shaw and those who without documented proof erroneously believe that St.John of Shangai and Holy
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Oct 9, 2006
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  This document was sent to inform Fr.Stefan, Fr.John Shaw and those who without documented proof erroneously believe that St.John of Shangai and Holy
                                                  Metr.Philaret commemorated Patr.Alexey at proskomedia.

                                                  Indeed why beat a dead horse when we have documents proving St.John of Shanghai did not recognize the MP, unless Patr.Alexey is deceitful and lied in his document.

                                                  That the MP dialogues and prays with heretics is nothing new. Their actions
                                                  show this. Nothing needs to be said. This is the reason many in ROCOR do not want any union with them at this time. The bishops joining the MP know this and will cause another schism in ROCOR. They will answer for their actions before GOD.

                                                  Michael N


                                                  Aleksandr Andreev <aleksandr.andreev@...> wrote: Mike Woodson wrote:
                                                  >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?

                                                  I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting the current
                                                  process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because he and
                                                  like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                                                  Patriarchate. But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                                                  from the
                                                  "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them quoting from
                                                  the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee see them
                                                  quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                                                  Catholics? No.
                                                  Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they are so
                                                  versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                                                  discuss
                                                  *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                                                  agreed, are
                                                  *no longer in force*.

                                                  They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                                                  dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper "Does
                                                  Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to pounding
                                                  into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer in force*?
                                                  The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not a list
                                                  about Russian Church History.

                                                  Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP documents ...
                                                  unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                                                  opinion of those who have, like our bishops.

                                                  --
                                                  Aleksandr A Andreev
                                                  Duke University
                                                  aleksandr.andreev@...
                                                  http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/






                                                  ---------------------------------
                                                  Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • michael nikitin
                                                  So far as anyone has reported ...so noone really knows? I guess this means if the people don t buy it, the reporting will change until the right one is
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Oct 10, 2006
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    "So far as anyone has reported"...so noone really knows? I guess this means if the people don't buy it, the reporting will change until the right one is found.

                                                    He didn't get married in the MP? They ordained him while he was still married without considering his wife may come back and then he acquired a civilian divorce?

                                                    A Patriarch with a civilian marriage and not a "Church" marriage whose wife leaves after a few hours and before gaining a civilian divorce he gets ordained a priest sounds very strange. His whole life is strange. Most likely he isn't even baptized. Does anyone know?

                                                    Michael N

                                                    ps. Where is Patr.Alexey's II repentance? I can't find it on the ROCOR site.

                                                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin (Peter Andreev) wrote:

                                                    > Since Patr.Alexey's II wife was the one who initiated the divorce, what
                                                    > did Patr.Alexey II do to her to allow the MP to give this divorce to her?
                                                    > Or was it planned?

                                                    JRS: So far as anyone has reported, she deserted him, and then after a time (after he had
                                                    already been ordained to the priesthood) sought a *civil* divorce.

                                                    It was only then that he took monastic vows: he had held out hope for a time that she
                                                    would return.

                                                    What the laws were in Soviet Estonia concerning civil divorces at that time, I do not know.
                                                    They may have been as liberal as in America today.

                                                    > Under what specific circumstance did the MP permit the divorce to Patr.Alexey's II wife
                                                    > of a few hours and immediately after the wedding the government did not take him into
                                                    > the army? Was the government that naive and did not see? This could not even
                                                    >happen in USA, never mind in USSR.

                                                    JRS: The government did not take him into the army, because he was ordained to the
                                                    priesthood as previously scheduled: the divorce played no role in the matter.

                                                    It seems that the Red Army did not want priests (or seminarians) influencing the other
                                                    recruits.

                                                    In Christ
                                                    Fr. John R. Shaw






                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Archpriest David Moser
                                                    ... Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position. I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two disabled Russian
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Oct 15, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                                                      > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                                                      > us.

                                                      Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position.
                                                      I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two
                                                      disabled Russian children now for over two years. The problem is that
                                                      the judge (in Russia) has seen reports of a Russian child who was
                                                      adopted to the US and then abused and killed by his adoptive parents.
                                                      The judge is now categorically denying all American adoptions with no
                                                      regard for the qualifications of the prospective parents. We do have
                                                      some hope that this family will be able to complete their adoption,
                                                      but it is still far from a sure thing. Please pray for Stanislav and
                                                      Valeria and their hopefully adoptive parents Victor and Widna.

                                                      Archpr David Moser
                                                    • Mike Woodson
                                                      Dear Aleksandr, First, I didn t write what you ascribed to me below. You should go back and research the original post from which that language came and then
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Oct 19, 2006
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Dear Aleksandr,

                                                        First, I didn't write what you ascribed to me below. You should go
                                                        back and research the original post from which that language came and
                                                        then address that person rather than manually truncate a message, put
                                                        my name with something someone else wrote, and then proceed on that
                                                        false basis. Let's not cross examine the wrong witness, Mr. Prosecutor
                                                        (You'll make a good one someday, a just one I'm sure). Please correct
                                                        that at your earliest.

                                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Aleksandr Andreev
                                                        <aleksandr.andreev@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Mike Woodson wrote:
                                                        > >> is the document below from Patr.Alexey II deceitful and a lie?


                                                        No, I did not write the above.


                                                        > I think, to be logical, Mr. Woodson should be the first supporting
                                                        the current
                                                        > process of reconciliation with the Moscow Patriarchate. Why? Because
                                                        he and
                                                        > like-minded individuals love to quote from documents of the Moscow
                                                        > Patriarchate.

                                                        Aleks, it is a logical fallacy to argue that if someone quotes from
                                                        one source or another, that means that they must support the views and
                                                        passions of the quoted source, rather than quoting them for some other
                                                        purpose or to illustrate something observed about their communications
                                                        and content.

                                                        Another logical error we must try to avoid is the straw man fallacy.
                                                        When I leave all of your comments in context by using the reply button
                                                        and not truncating your comments, and then respond to each of your
                                                        arguments in context, I find it helps to avoid the "straw man"
                                                        fallacy, and to avoid falsely quoting you or quoting you out of
                                                        context. This helps to avoid making arguments based on the false
                                                        assumptions implied by the partial or out-of-context quotes.

                                                        As for your assertion that I "love to quote from documents of the
                                                        Moscow Patriarchate," please find examples enough to support that
                                                        argument in my posts. As I recall writing my posts, I have quoted what
                                                        the MP has said, stated and released (and has not corrected) in the
                                                        government dominated presses of Russia versus what their
                                                        representatives have stated to our clergy by clergy report, written
                                                        statement etc., the "forked tongue" phenomena of the hydra, so to speak.

                                                        >But here's something interesting: do we see them quoting
                                                        > from the
                                                        > "Basic Social Concept of the Russian Church"? No. Do we see them
                                                        >quoting from
                                                        > the "Attitude of the Russian Church to the Heterodox"? No. Do wee
                                                        see them
                                                        > quoting from the latest MP documents about dialog with the Roman
                                                        > Catholics? No.

                                                        Aleks, for me to quote from these sources, there would have to be a
                                                        reason considering what I write in the next para. Why don't you quote
                                                        from them to support the propositions that you think they support, and
                                                        we can discuss that here on the forum.

                                                        I have found it more relevant to quote sources that deal directly with
                                                        the behavior of the MP, and the RF government, during their courtship
                                                        of the ROCOR. By annexing the credibility of the Russian Orthodox
                                                        Church Abroad and Outside Russia, the MP hopes to camouflage the
                                                        reality of its desire to bury the Mystery of Repentance.

                                                        Again and again, we hear what the MP has said, written or declared.
                                                        But it is more important to watch what it does and does not do. It
                                                        does not renounce nationalism, but embraces it. Fr. Justin Popovich
                                                        wrote: "It is now high time--the twelfth hour--time for our Church
                                                        representatives to cease being nothing but the servants of nationalism
                                                        and for them to become bishops and priests of the One, Holy, Catholic,
                                                        and Apostolic Church."

                                                        What happens? Patriarch Alexei II gave as his chief reason why the
                                                        "reconciliation" must occur now: the Russians outside of Russia and
                                                        their Church were losing their "Russianness." Nothing could be more
                                                        nationalistic than that call to nationalism as the purpose for
                                                        "reconciliation." This was consistent with Vladimir Putin's purpose
                                                        when he told us that Russia could not be united as a nation until the
                                                        Church "united." "Reconciliation" or "unification" are and were false
                                                        terms of propagandistic art that presupposed that the Church had been
                                                        divided (prevailed against) and mischaracterized the communion
                                                        suspension as a division rather than a prescription for healing the
                                                        wound that the MP was and is on the One Church without its officials'
                                                        full Repentance. At least offer to resign; even Don Rumsfeld has done
                                                        that.

                                                        From the MP perspective, "uniting" means severance of the Mystery of
                                                        Repentance from the Holy Mysteries (Communion) and the attempted
                                                        joining of Russian nationalism to the Holy Mysteries of Communion in
                                                        its place.

                                                        And Russian nationalism demands that genuine and unmitigated humility,
                                                        the hallmark of Repentance and Queen of Virtues, be glossed over so
                                                        that national unity may contain its strongest glue: National Pride.

                                                        So what we have is Pride telling the Church what to do. The Mystery of
                                                        Repentance belongs to Christ, and Vladimir Putin, nor any Churchman on
                                                        his behalf has no right under God to persuade or order the ROCOR to
                                                        turn it over to the MP and to the RF itself for the economy of
                                                        nationalism. Would you join God with mammon? No. So why this?


                                                        > Surely they know about the existence of these documents, since they
                                                        are so
                                                        > versed in MP (and KGB!) archival data. Then why are they not willing to
                                                        > discuss
                                                        > *them*, as opposed to Cold-War Era documents, which, both sides have
                                                        > agreed, are
                                                        > *no longer in force*.

                                                        Documents do nothing if honesty is lacking. You see, a law doesn't
                                                        keep a government from arranging the death of a journalist, or from
                                                        coercing journalists into failing to report grave crimes in Russia
                                                        that might humble Russian nationalism as it is now using Western sins
                                                        to justify it's commandeering the One Russian Orthodox Church, and
                                                        killing journalists who point out Russian nationalist sins.

                                                        >
                                                        > They also like to quote Metropolitan Sergius. But why not quote from his
                                                        > dissertation "The Orthodox Teaching on Salvation" or from his paper
                                                        "Does
                                                        > Christ have a vicar on the Earth?" or other documents as opposed to
                                                        pounding
                                                        > into the ground the "Declaration", which, once again, is *no longer
                                                        in force*?
                                                        > The "Declaration" may be interesting for historians, but this is not
                                                        a list
                                                        > about Russian Church History.

                                                        Aleksandr, be advised: Metropolitan Sergius spoke for the Soviet
                                                        spirit at one time, and I certainly do not say that he always did
                                                        speak for that spirit. What I do say is that once that spirit had the
                                                        dagger point to his carotid-artery, he could make them look good with
                                                        all manner of spiritualized writings, which would also cause him to
                                                        feel a sense of personal relief that he could write those things,
                                                        because of the successive druggings and guilt-counter-guilt that was
                                                        imposed by his handlers and interrogators.

                                                        The regime wanted to be able to claim that here was the Metropolitan,
                                                        producing writings that did his USSR proud, not lacking in the "social
                                                        consciousness" of the Soviet "Socialist" Republic, and making it seem
                                                        tolerant of religions at once. Well, it had already subjugated the
                                                        religious life of all who labored under the USSR's iron yoke, and it
                                                        sculpted the modern MP from the bone and blood of the martyrs, so that
                                                        when the angel of light spoke over the peaceful subjugation, all
                                                        appeared calm, tranquil and resolved for a long time in the USSR
                                                        before its collapse. I don't see that as a holy calm, but one caused
                                                        by killing that many Russians did not know the extent or impact thereof.

                                                        Today, former USSR officials pretend to lead the One Russian Church in
                                                        a spiritual renewal to save their own official skins and re-acquire
                                                        power, their two chief concerns. Chief among the tasks the MP is
                                                        charged with is eliminating the ROCOR for the legitimacy of the
                                                        Russian Federation government of Vladimir Putin at home, and of his
                                                        powerbase's selected successors.

                                                        If the ROCOR were allowed to remain separate, it might again become a
                                                        voice of Holy Spiritual conscience against the regime's actions and
                                                        plans for Russia in the world. If it is defeated by this regime and
                                                        MP, it will cease to be a threat to the world, the flesh and the devil.


                                                        >
                                                        > Perhaps they would care to engage in a discussion of current MP
                                                        documents ...
                                                        > unless, of course, they have not read them, in which case I defer to the
                                                        > opinion of those who have, like our bishops.

                                                        Documents-schmokuments. It doesn't matter what amendatory things are
                                                        said or written; it matters what is done and not done in concert with
                                                        Holy scriptures and examples and teachings of the saints and holy
                                                        fathers that counts in the repentant stories that are published in the
                                                        Book of Life, or else the Church is now an institution of legalism; or
                                                        worse, magic, in which what is said or invoked justifies. God forbid.
                                                        What pleases God according to the prayer book we read? Faithful
                                                        actions consistent with the honoring of the Commandments and the Body
                                                        and Bride of the Lord Jesus Christ on which every spiritual Mystery
                                                        benefits people instead of harming them. What is the cornerstone of
                                                        our prayers? Repentance. What is that which the MP wishes to bury?
                                                        Repentance.

                                                        It doesn't matter what you say, or how many times you partake of the
                                                        Holy Mysteries: if you partake of them unto non-repentance and the
                                                        attempt to justify sinful passions such as nationalism, then what will
                                                        happen to you and that nation by the Fire of the Holy Mysteries? Are
                                                        high-flying nationalist emotions worth that?


                                                        > --
                                                        > Aleksandr A Andreev
                                                        > Duke University
                                                        > aleksandr.andreev@...
                                                        > http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/
                                                        >

                                                        Michael
                                                      • Mike Woodson
                                                        That Russian children are up for adoption to the world is a testimony to how for the past 15 years, the powerful elite who formerly ran the USSR and profited
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Oct 19, 2006
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          That Russian children are up for adoption to the world is a testimony
                                                          to how for the past 15 years, the powerful elite who formerly ran the
                                                          USSR and profited under it, have been destroying the Russian people
                                                          with their brand of false freedom without lawful due process, equal
                                                          protection, independent courts and such.

                                                          If Patriarch Alexei II and his officials are the conscience of the
                                                          actions of the government regarding expenditures for Russians, why is
                                                          this still the status quo that so many Russian babies are being put up
                                                          for adoption? It is because the Patriarch and those officials do not
                                                          care about the Russian people, but only about controlling them.

                                                          When the Russians finally figure this out and are no longer fooled by
                                                          the symbolism employed by the current RF/MP, hopefully the only folks
                                                          put up for adoption will be Pat. Alexei II, the Putin regime, their
                                                          supporting party machines, and the crime bosses. How does a country of
                                                          hungry, hardworking people throw off such corrupt and unworthy elites?

                                                          Michael



                                                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest David Moser"
                                                          <moserd@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@> wrote:
                                                          > >
                                                          > > If Russians had the eyes to see the bestiality of our behaviour- and
                                                          > > be harsh & judgemental- they'd never want to have anything to do with
                                                          > > us.
                                                          >
                                                          > Some Russians in positions of authority have taken just that position.
                                                          > I have a family in my parish that have been working to adopt two
                                                          > disabled Russian children now for over two years. The problem is that
                                                          > the judge (in Russia) has seen reports of a Russian child who was
                                                          > adopted to the US and then abused and killed by his adoptive parents.
                                                          > The judge is now categorically denying all American adoptions with no
                                                          > regard for the qualifications of the prospective parents. We do have
                                                          > some hope that this family will be able to complete their adoption,
                                                          > but it is still far from a sure thing. Please pray for Stanislav and
                                                          > Valeria and their hopefully adoptive parents Victor and Widna.
                                                          >
                                                          > Archpr David Moser
                                                          >
                                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.