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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;

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  • Melissa Bushunow
    Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan, ... I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader. Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 2, 2006
      Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,


      On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:

      > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
      >
      > Where do you get this information?

      I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
      Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr. Vladimir
      Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting committee's
      report.

      > Show me please the statements
      > confirming what you say.

      Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr. Vladimir
      Petrenko's signature on it.

      > The "Count" is there, every member who was
      > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
      > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
      > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution. Yours
      > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took place at
      > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on factual
      > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
      > LIES.

      Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes, post
      scanned SOBOR documents.

      We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks, if not
      months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?

      Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates, their
      comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered into
      the minutes?

      > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
      > the facts.

      Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as documented
      by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union speeches.

      > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
      > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources, of
      > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      >
      The disseminators of false information are those who willfully stifled
      discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR, and
      those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.

      Melissa Bushunow






      > ---------------------------------------------------
      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
      > <cafeconlechemom@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
      > >
      > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting Committee,
      > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
      > anyway.
      > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
      > > > --------------------------------------------------->
      > > >
      > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the fact
      > of
      > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
      > > >
      > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the vote.
      > > >
      > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
      > >
      > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on at
      > Sobor
      > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off on
      > the
      > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
      > despite
      > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
      > uncontested
      > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
      > >
      > > Melissa Bushunow
      > >
      > >
      > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR POSTING.
      > > >
      > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      > > >
      > > > ==============================================================
      > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
      > > > <cafeconlechemom@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
      > > > >
      > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
      > official vote
      > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each paragraph
      > > > being
      > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868 votes,
      > there
      > > > were,
      > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
      > abstentions.
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
      > Committee
      > > > were:
      > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South American
      > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western European
      > > > Diocese)
      > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
      > > > > >
      > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of the
      > > > South
      > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
      > favor of
      > > > > > rapprochement. . .
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting Committee,
      > > > refused to
      > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
      > > > >
      > > > > Sound familiar?
      > > > >
      > > > > Melissa Bushunow
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
      > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over the
      > > > procedure of
      > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V. Rev.
      > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
      > Parish
      > > > in
      > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally know
      > that
      > > > > is
      > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock, some of
      > > > whom are
      > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have not
      > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
      > regard.
      > > > No one
      > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to push
      > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
      > > > Resolution
      > > > > > itself
      > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion. Again,
      > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
      > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then Vladika
      > > > Agaphangel
      > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander gave a
      > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
      > > > available on
      > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
      > delegates
      > > > voted
      > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
      > carefully
      > > > written
      > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm substance. The
      > > > voting
      > > > > > was
      > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
      > resolution as
      > > > a
      > > > > > whole
      > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
      > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast to
      > what
      > > > was
      > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the proceedings
      > are
      > > > not
      > > > > > going
      > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
      > > > > > Peter
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > *********************************************************************
      > > > *
      > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are
      > confidential
      > > > and
      > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
      > whom
      > > > they
      > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error
      > please
      > > > delete
      > > > > > it from your system.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
      > > > swept for
      > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Thank You,
      > > > > > Viahealth
      > > > > >
      > > >
      > *********************************************************************
      > > > *
      > > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frvictor@comcast.net
      Dear Melissa, The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See: http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.html The text
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 2, 2006
        Dear Melissa,
        The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:
        http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.html

        The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming Council of Bishops."

        Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church�between her parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ, opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from one Chalice."
        Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.
        Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."
        According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor, which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored. My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.
        I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the voting of the Resolution.
        Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
        In Christ,
        Priest Victor Boldewskul

        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>

        > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,
        >
        >
        > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
        >
        > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
        > >
        > > Where do you get this information?
        >
        > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
        > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr. Vladimir
        > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting committee's
        > report.
        >
        > > Show me please the statements
        > > confirming what you say.
        >
        > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr. Vladimir
        > Petrenko's signature on it.
        >
        > > The "Count" is there, every member who was
        > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
        > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
        > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution. Yours
        > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took place at
        > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on factual
        > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
        > > LIES.
        >
        > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes, post
        > scanned SOBOR documents.
        >
        > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks, if not
        > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?
        >
        > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates, their
        > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered into
        > the minutes?
        >
        > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
        > > the facts.
        >
        > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as documented
        > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union speeches.
        >
        > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
        > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources, of
        > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
        > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        > >
        > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully stifled
        > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR, and
        > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.
        >
        > Melissa Bushunow
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > ---------------------------------------------------
        > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting Committee,
        > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
        > > anyway.
        > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
        > > > > --------------------------------------------------->
        > > > >
        > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the fact
        > > of
        > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
        > > > >
        > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the vote.
        > > > >
        > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
        > > >
        > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on at
        > > Sobor
        > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off on
        > > the
        > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
        > > despite
        > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
        > > uncontested
        > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
        > > >
        > > > Melissa Bushunow
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR POSTING.
        > > > >
        > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        > > > >
        > > > > ==============================================================
        > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
        > > > > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
        > > official vote
        > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each paragraph
        > > > > being
        > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868 votes,
        > > there
        > > > > were,
        > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
        > > abstentions.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
        > > Committee
        > > > > were:
        > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South American
        > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western European
        > > > > Diocese)
        > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of the
        > > > > South
        > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
        > > favor of
        > > > > > > rapprochement. . .
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting Committee,
        > > > > refused to
        > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Sound familiar?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Melissa Bushunow
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
        > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over the
        > > > > procedure of
        > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V. Rev.
        > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
        > > Parish
        > > > > in
        > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally know
        > > that
        > > > > > is
        > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock, some of
        > > > > whom are
        > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have not
        > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
        > > regard.
        > > > > No one
        > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to push
        > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
        > > > > Resolution
        > > > > > > itself
        > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion. Again,
        > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
        > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then Vladika
        > > > > Agaphangel
        > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander gave a
        > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
        > > > > available on
        > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
        > > delegates
        > > > > voted
        > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
        > > carefully
        > > > > written
        > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm substance. The
        > > > > voting
        > > > > > > was
        > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
        > > resolution as
        > > > > a
        > > > > > > whole
        > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
        > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast to
        > > what
        > > > > was
        > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the proceedings
        > > are
        > > > > not
        > > > > > > going
        > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
        > > > > > > Peter
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > *********************************************************************
        > > > > *
        > > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are
        > > confidential
        > > > > and
        > > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
        > > whom
        > > > > they
        > > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error
        > > please
        > > > > delete
        > > > > > > it from your system.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been
        > > > > swept for
        > > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Thank You,
        > > > > > > Viahealth
        > > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > *********************************************************************
        > > > > *
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • interestedplus
        Dear Father Victor, You wrote: the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
          Dear Father Victor,

          You wrote:

          the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by
          the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the
          reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
          In Christ,
          Priest Victor Boldewskul

          Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church
          Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
          Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one
          of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian
          Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council
          of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The
          Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge
          of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very
          grateful.

          In Christ,
          Alexandra


          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvictor@... wrote:
          >
          > Dear Melissa,
          > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:
          >
          http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.htm
          l
          >
          > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop
          Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly
          unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the
          following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we
          shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
          Council of Bishops."
          >
          > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of
          the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to
          heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her
          parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the
          great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian
          Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,
          opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from
          one Chalice."
          > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions
          of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.
          > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."
          > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,
          which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision
          on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we
          can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the
          appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.
          My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's
          will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that
          those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian
          needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.
          > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions
          of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up
          in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in
          Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the
          voting of the Resolution.
          > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be
          resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only
          occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
          > In Christ,
          > Priest Victor Boldewskul
          >
          > -------------- Original message --------------
          > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
          >
          > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,
          > >
          > >
          > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
          > >
          > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
          > > >
          > > > Where do you get this information?
          > >
          > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
          > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.
          Vladimir
          > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting
          committee's
          > > report.
          > >
          > > > Show me please the statements
          > > > confirming what you say.
          > >
          > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.
          Vladimir
          > > Petrenko's signature on it.
          > >
          > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was
          > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
          > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
          > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.
          Yours
          > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took
          place at
          > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on
          factual
          > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
          > > > LIES.
          > >
          > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,
          post
          > > scanned SOBOR documents.
          > >
          > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,
          if not
          > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?
          > >
          > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,
          their
          > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered
          into
          > > the minutes?
          > >
          > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
          > > > the facts.
          > >
          > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as
          documented
          > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union
          speeches.
          > >
          > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
          > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,
          of
          > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
          > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          > > >
          > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully
          stifled
          > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,
          and
          > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.
          > >
          > > Melissa Bushunow
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > > ---------------------------------------------------
          > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
          Committee,
          > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
          > > > anyway.
          > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
          > > > > > --------------------------------------------------->
          > > > > >
          > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the
          fact
          > > > of
          > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the
          vote.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
          > > > >
          > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on
          at
          > > > Sobor
          > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off
          on
          > > > the
          > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
          > > > despite
          > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
          > > > uncontested
          > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
          > > > >
          > > > > Melissa Bushunow
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR
          POSTING.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          ==============================================================
          > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
          > > > > > wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
          > > > official vote
          > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > >
          http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each
          paragraph
          > > > > > being
          > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868
          votes,
          > > > there
          > > > > > were,
          > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
          > > > abstentions.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
          > > > Committee
          > > > > > were:
          > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South
          American
          > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western
          European
          > > > > > Diocese)
          > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of
          the
          > > > > > South
          > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
          > > > favor of
          > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
          Committee,
          > > > > > refused to
          > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Sound familiar?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
          > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over
          the
          > > > > > procedure of
          > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.
          Rev.
          > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
          > > > Parish
          > > > > > in
          > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally
          know
          > > > that
          > > > > > > is
          > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,
          some of
          > > > > > whom are
          > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have
          not
          > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
          > > > regard.
          > > > > > No one
          > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to
          push
          > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
          > > > > > Resolution
          > > > > > > > itself
          > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
          Again,
          > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
          > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then
          Vladika
          > > > > > Agaphangel
          > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander
          gave a
          > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
          > > > > > available on
          > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
          > > > delegates
          > > > > > voted
          > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
          > > > carefully
          > > > > > written
          > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm
          substance. The
          > > > > > voting
          > > > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
          > > > resolution as
          > > > > > a
          > > > > > > > whole
          > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
          > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast
          to
          > > > what
          > > > > > was
          > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the
          proceedings
          > > > are
          > > > > > not
          > > > > > > > going
          > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
          > > > > > > > Peter
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > >
          *********************************************************************
          > > > > > *
          > > > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are
          > > > confidential
          > > > > > and
          > > > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity
          to
          > > > whom
          > > > > > they
          > > > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error
          > > > please
          > > > > > delete
          > > > > > > > it from your system.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has
          been
          > > > > > swept for
          > > > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > Thank You,
          > > > > > > > Viahealth
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > >
          *********************************************************************
          > > > > > *
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already in communion with, and recognize, one another. The catacomb church bishops are
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@...> wrote:

            > Can I ask "why?" [an All Russian Sobor... can only occur after the
            > reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union]. Particularly since the other "Russian"
            > Church
            > Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
            > Catacomb Church bishops.

            JRS: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already in communion
            with, and recognize, one another.

            The "catacomb church bishops" are split into countless groups (who could even say exactly
            how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do not recognize one
            another, or ROCOR, or the MP.

            If they were somehow all brought together, in all likelihood they would only argue
            endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • michael nikitin
            Alexandra is correct. The Catacomb bishops should be included as should the OCA also. If we went out of our way to have dialogue to join the MP, why couldn t
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
              Alexandra is correct. The Catacomb bishops should be included as should the OCA also.

              If we went out of our way to have dialogue to join the MP, why couldn't we at the same time have begun dialogue with the Catacomb bishops and the OCA? We didn't even make an attempt to
              have dialogue with them. There is something wrong with this picture and it's not according to
              Ukaz #362.


              This type of council with only the MP/ROCOR present is typically called a Robber Sobor.

              Michael N


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: interestedplus <asvetlov@...>
              To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 6:51:38 AM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting;













              Dear Father Victor,



              You wrote:



              the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by

              the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the

              reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

              In Christ,

              Priest Victor Boldewskul



              Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church

              Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the

              Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one

              of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian

              Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council

              of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The

              Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge

              of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very

              grateful.



              In Christ,

              Alexandra



              --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, frvictor@... wrote:

              >

              > Dear Melissa,

              > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:

              >

              http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobre solution. htm

              l

              >

              > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop

              Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly

              unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the

              following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we

              shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming

              Council of Bishops."

              >

              > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of

              the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to

              heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church�between her

              parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the

              great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian

              Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,

              opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from

              one Chalice."

              > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions

              of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.

              > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."

              > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,

              which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision

              on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we

              can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the

              appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.

              My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's

              will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that

              those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian

              needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.

              > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions

              of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up

              in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in

              Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the

              voting of the Resolution.

              > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be

              resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only

              occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.

              > In Christ,

              > Priest Victor Boldewskul

              >

              > ------------ -- Original message ------------ --

              > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@ ...>

              >

              > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,

              > >

              > >

              > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:

              > >

              > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,

              > > >

              > > > Where do you get this information?

              > >

              > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.

              > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.

              Vladimir

              > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting

              committee's

              > > report.

              > >

              > > > Show me please the statements

              > > > confirming what you say.

              > >

              > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.

              Vladimir

              > > Petrenko's signature on it.

              > >

              > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was

              > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their

              > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some

              > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.

              Yours

              > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took

              place at

              > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on

              factual

              > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right

              > > > LIES.

              > >

              > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,

              post

              > > scanned SOBOR documents.

              > >

              > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,

              if not

              > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?

              > >

              > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,

              their

              > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered

              into

              > > the minutes?

              > >

              > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to

              > > > the facts.

              > >

              > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as

              documented

              > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union

              speeches.

              > >

              > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you

              > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,

              of

              > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!

              > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

              > > >

              > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully

              stifled

              > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,

              and

              > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.

              > >

              > > Melissa Bushunow

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---

              > > > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

              > > > wrote:

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

              wrote:

              > > > >

              > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

              Committee,

              > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted

              > > > anyway.

              > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow

              > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --->

              > > > > >

              > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the

              fact

              > > > of

              > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the

              vote.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!

              > > > >

              > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on

              at

              > > > Sobor

              > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off

              on

              > > > the

              > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,

              > > > despite

              > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was

              > > > uncontested

              > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.

              > > > >

              > > > > Melissa Bushunow

              > > > >

              > > > >

              > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR

              POSTING.

              > > > > >

              > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

              > > > > >

              > > > > >

              ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =====

              > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow

              > > > > > wrote:

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the

              > > > official vote

              > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > >

              http://www.russiano rthodoxchurch. ws/synod/ eng2006/5ensobor vote.html

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each

              paragraph

              > > > > > being

              > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868

              votes,

              > > > there

              > > > > > were,

              > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18

              > > > abstentions.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting

              > > > Committee

              > > > > > were:

              > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South

              American

              > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western

              European

              > > > > > Diocese)

              > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of

              the

              > > > > > South

              > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in

              > > > favor of

              > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting

              Committee,

              > > > > > refused to

              > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Sound familiar?

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:

              > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:

              > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over

              the

              > > > > > procedure of

              > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.

              Rev.

              > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection

              > > > Parish

              > > > > > in

              > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally

              know

              > > > that

              > > > > > > is

              > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,

              some of

              > > > > > whom are

              > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have

              not

              > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this

              > > > regard.

              > > > > > No one

              > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to

              push

              > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the

              > > > > > Resolution

              > > > > > > > itself

              > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.

              Again,

              > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.

              > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then

              Vladika

              > > > > > Agaphangel

              > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander

              gave a

              > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now

              > > > > > available on

              > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The

              > > > delegates

              > > > > > voted

              > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very

              > > > carefully

              > > > > > written

              > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm

              substance. The

              > > > > > voting

              > > > > > > > was

              > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The

              > > > resolution as

              > > > > > a

              > > > > > > > whole

              > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.

              > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast

              to

              > > > what

              > > > > > was

              > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the

              proceedings

              > > > are

              > > > > > not

              > > > > > > > going

              > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.

              > > > > > > > Peter

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > >

              ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ***

              > > > > > *

              > > > > > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are

              > > > confidential

              > > > > > and

              > > > > > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity

              to

              > > > whom

              > > > > > they

              > > > > > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error

              > > > please

              > > > > > delete

              > > > > > > > it from your system.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has

              been

              > > > > > swept for

              > > > > > > > the presence of computer viruses.

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > > > > Thank You,

              > > > > > > > Viahealth

              > > > > > > >

              > > > > >

              > > >

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • michael nikitin
              Fr.John had said before there was no Catacomb Church. Now he admits there is. We didn t recognize nor were in communion with the MP, but still had dialogue
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
                Fr.John had said before there was no Catacomb Church. Now he admits there is.

                We didn't recognize nor were in communion with the MP, but still had dialogue even
                though they didn't leave the WCC, ecumenism and Sergianism. Why couldn't we make
                overtures to the Catacomb bishops and the OCA for dialogue at the same time?

                If only we had dialogue with the Catacomb Church and the OCA also, we could then say
                we followed Ukaz #362 and had a true "COUNCIL".

                With only the MP/ROCOR involved it is an aberration of a True "Council"...a False
                or Robber "Council".

                Michael N

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, October 4, 2006 5:38:18 PM
                Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Sobor voting













                --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@.. .> wrote:



                > Can I ask "why?" [an All Russian Sobor... can only occur after the

                > reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union]. Particularly since the other "Russian"

                > Church

                > Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the

                > Catacomb Church bishops.



                JRS: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already in communion

                with, and recognize, one another.



                The "catacomb church bishops" are split into countless groups (who could even say exactly

                how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do not recognize one

                another, or ROCOR, or the MP.



                If they were somehow all brought together, in all likelihood they would only argue

                endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement.



                In Christ

                Fr. John R. Shaw














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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • interestedplus
                Dear Father John, Thank you for your reply. You state that: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already in communion ... My
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 5, 2006
                  Dear Father John,

                  Thank you for your reply. You state that:

                  "There cannot be a church council unless the participants are already
                  in communion
                  > with, and recognize, one another"

                  My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that during the battle
                  with previous heresies at Sobors, some bishops did not "recognise"
                  other bishops as parts of the Church. It was then the decision of the
                  true Sobor, which allowed all a voice and then made a concensual
                  decision. The present situation appears similar.

                  You also state: "The "catacomb church bishops" are split into
                  countless groups (who could even say exactly
                  > how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do
                  not recognize one
                  > another, or ROCOR, or the MP."

                  There may be several groups, but there are also synods (and I'm aware
                  of at least one that is well organised, who ROCA helped with their
                  episcopacy earlier). The fact that the catacomb Church is not "well
                  organised" in the wordly sense is no excuse to exclude them. The view
                  that you seem to be voicing is straight from the mouths of the MP -
                  "there is no other Church, if it does not accept us". Regarding
                  contacting "them", surely in the age of email, TV etc this could be
                  done if the will was there.

                  The big hurdle that I do know exists, is that some in the Catacomb
                  Church still DO NOT TRUST THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED if they
                  surface. For anyone with knowledge of what happenned to parents and
                  grandparents, and understand the POST TRAUMATIC STRESS that some of
                  our brothers and sisters in Christ are suffering from, their fear and
                  the fear of our Diaspora elderly is quite logical. This fear is that
                  the powers that be, once they can identify them as ideological
                  dissidents, may "deal" with them as in the past. After all we do
                  learn (or some do) from our experiece. And to paraphrase Christ,
                  there is the parable about a wise person avoiding the road on which
                  he was previously beaten up....(I'm more than open to anyone who can
                  quote same).

                  Your statement that: "> If they were somehow all brought together, in
                  all likelihood they would only argue
                  > endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement." is just a huge
                  denegrating assumption or personal first hand knowledge of these
                  Bishops. If its the first, it reminds me of the American view of the
                  Germans in "Hogans Heroes". These bishops are not the enemy, and if
                  we don't know them except for what we have been told by the MP (who
                  do see the Catacombnics as the enemy), should not we find out????
                  And of course bishops NEVER argued during previous Councils........

                  One of our clergy, and elderly and well respected presbyter, has had
                  ongoing contact with some of the Catacomb Church. His appraisal of
                  these people is that they are trully faithful to Our Saviour, and
                  still suffer some persecution by authorities. I trust his judgement.
                  I've also had some dealings with Catacombnics in Russia and the
                  Ukraine. Their families have been greatly traumatised by persecution
                  by authorities in the past. I can understand why they are circumspect.
                  The opinion of ROCA travellers who have met and befriended these
                  people is very positive.

                  If we are really concerned about the "healing" of the Russian Church
                  after its worst period in history, lets not play schoolyard clicky
                  favourites, lets get serious and not just get together with
                  the "strong". Otherwise it becomes a bit like the old camping joke:
                  Ivan is looking for something on the floor by the evening campfire.
                  Vasia asks "What are you looking for?"
                  Ivan - "I lost my wallet"
                  They look together all around the campfire.
                  Vasia - "Are you sure you lost it here?"
                  Ivan - "No. I lost it way over there by the trees"
                  Vasia - "So why have we been looking by the fire?"
                  Ivan with a smirk - "Its too dark out there to find anything.."

                  CANONICALLY is there anything preventing us from having a true Sobor
                  of all Russian Church jurisdictions to decide where to from this
                  point in time???

                  In Christ,

                  Alexandra

                  PS God does send the Dawn.


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > > Can I ask "why?" [an All Russian Sobor... can only occur after
                  the
                  > > reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union]. Particularly
                  since the other "Russian"
                  > > Church
                  > > Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
                  > > Catacomb Church bishops.
                  >
                  > JRS: There cannot be a church council unless the participants are
                  already in communion
                  > with, and recognize, one another.
                  >
                  > The "catacomb church bishops" are split into countless groups (who
                  could even say exactly
                  > how many there are, name them all, or contact them?), and they do
                  not recognize one
                  > another, or ROCOR, or the MP.
                  >
                  > If they were somehow all brought together, in all likelihood they
                  would only argue
                  > endlessly and refuse to come to any agreement.
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  >
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... JRS: There were different parties in the Church, but there were no Sobors involving bishops who did not belong to the same Church. ... JRS: There is no one
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 5, 2006
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@...> wrote:

                    > My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that during the battle
                    > with previous heresies at Sobors, some bishops did not "recognise"
                    > other bishops as parts of the Church. It was then the decision of the
                    > true Sobor, which allowed all a voice and then made a concensual
                    > decision. The present situation appears similar.

                    JRS: There were different parties in the Church, but there were no Sobors involving bishops
                    who did not belong to the same Church.

                    > The fact that the catacomb Church is not "well
                    > organised" in the wordly sense is no excuse to exclude them. The view
                    > that you seem to be voicing is straight from the mouths of the MP -
                    > "there is no other Church, if it does not accept us". Regarding
                    > contacting "them", surely in the age of email, TV etc this could be
                    > done if the will was there.

                    JRS: There is no one "Catacomb Church", and there never was. There are various "catacomb
                    churches", and ROCOR has long ago determined that those who continue to call
                    themselves such are without any canonical basis.

                    The "Lazarites" are not a catacomb church, at least not anymore: they are a group that was
                    part of ROCOR and first joined ROCiE, then broke away and are now on their own.

                    > The big hurdle that I do know exists, is that some in the Catacomb
                    > Church still DO NOT TRUST THAT THEY WILL NOT BE PERSECUTED if they
                    > surface.

                    JRS: You first wrote that they could easily be contacted, and here you say that they "have
                    not yet surfaced".

                    It can't be both ways: if they can be contacted, that means they have indeed "surfaced",
                    and merely call themselves catacomb churches.

                    > CANONICALLY is there anything preventing us from having a true Sobor
                    > of all Russian Church jurisdictions to decide where to from this
                    > point in time???

                    JRS: Canonically, a "true Sobor" would not put uncanonical groups on the same level as
                    those that have a canonical basis.

                    Besides, that, the Old Believers are many times more numerous than the various
                    "catacomb churches", and have up to two million members today. Most of them belong to
                    the Bielokrinitsa Synod, headed by Metropolitan Cornelius.

                    The Old Believers have been separate for over 300 years, but still consider themselves
                    "part of the Russian Church" (in the words of their late Metropolitan Andrian who reposed
                    last year).

                    Metropolitan Andrian also called for "reconciliation in the Russian Church".

                    As for the so-called "catacomb churches", most of them are not even interested in
                    "reconciliation".

                    The reason is often that they are minuscule, and want to remain independant.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Basil Yakimov
                    Dear fr. Victor where does it say that after the Eucharist that the All Russia Sobor will occur - it is not logical - sadly for the delegates in SF that
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 6, 2006
                      Dear fr. Victor where does it say that after the Eucharist that the All Russia Sobor will occur - it is not logical - sadly for the delegates in SF that if business or ortherwise must be pressured this is not true - I know the names ... I have returned to the public service in Australia... KGB agents whether in post soviet union or otherwise... remember this please that.. many millions of our brothers & sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ were butchered by izvergi such as Lenin, Stalin & indirectly sadly.... by those who supported the Soviet state such as metr Sergious & others...

                      Unworthy as I am I ask the Lord to fogive them but the TRUTH cannot be white washed by any SOBOR in SF or otherwise....

                      Basil from Canberra

                      interestedplus <asvetlov@...> wrote: Dear Father Victor,

                      You wrote:

                      the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be resolved by
                      the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only occur after the
                      reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
                      In Christ,
                      Priest Victor Boldewskul

                      Can I ask "why?". Particularly since the other "Russian" Church
                      Jurisdictions should be included in a "COUNCIL", including the
                      Catacomb Church bishops. The whole current day problem is one
                      of "acceptance" by other churches of churches as part of the Russian
                      Church. This will never be resolved without a true conciliar council
                      of all bishops who any decisions of the council will affect. The
                      Arians were part of the councils. Could someone with more knowledge
                      of canonical procedure please answer my question. I'd be very
                      grateful.

                      In Christ,
                      Alexandra

                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, frvictor@... wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Melissa,
                      > The Resolution of the 4th All Diaspora Sobor was published. See:
                      >
                      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensobresolution.htm
                      l
                      >
                      > The text speaks for itself. Also, in an interview with Bishop
                      Gabriel, His Grace also noted that the Resolution was adopted nearly
                      unnanimously. Note especially paragraph one which includes the
                      following: "... attest that as loyal children of the Holy Church, we
                      shall submit to Divine will and obey the decisions of the forthcoming
                      Council of Bishops."
                      >
                      > Also paragraph two: "We archpastors, pastors and laymen, members of
                      the IV All-Diaspora Council, unanimously express our resoluteness to
                      heal the wounds of division within the Russian Church—between her
                      parts in the Fatherland and abroad. Our Paschal joy is joined by the
                      great hope that in the appropriate time, the unity of the Russian
                      Church will be restored upon the foundation of the Truth of Christ,
                      opening for us the possibility to serve together and to commune from
                      one Chalice."
                      > Note the words "submit" and "obey" and accepting that the decisions
                      of the Sobor of Bishops represent God's will.
                      > Note the words "resoluteness to heal the wounds of division."
                      > According to the conciliar resolution of the 4th All Diapora Sobor,
                      which the bishops accepted, it has been recongnized that any decision
                      on the part of our bishops is concidered Divine Will. Therefore, we
                      can rejoice, for our bishops have determined that now is the
                      appropriate time for the unity of the Russian Church to be restored.
                      My opinion does not matter, nor does yours. All that matters is God's
                      will, and that we fulfill it. Your husband wrote on this list that
                      those who support union need to humble themselves. Every Christian
                      needs to humble themselves to God's Holy Will.
                      > I wish to also add, that this resolution on accepting the decisions
                      of our bishops as Divine will is what I was always taught growing up
                      in Rochester, especially by the current Rector who was my teacher in
                      Seminary, and who was the vice-president of the Sobor the day of the
                      voting of the Resolution.
                      > Finally, the Resolution states that any remaining problems to be
                      resolved by the an All Russian Sobor, which, of course, can only
                      occur after the reestablishment of Eucharist and Canonical union.
                      > In Christ,
                      > Priest Victor Boldewskul
                      >
                      > -------------- Original message --------------
                      > From: Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
                      >
                      > > Dear in Christ Fr. Stefan,
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 4:57 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Ms. Melissa Bushunow,
                      > > >
                      > > > Where do you get this information?
                      > >
                      > > I received this information from SOBOR delegate Timothy Clader.
                      > > Timothy Clader was witness to Counting Committee President Fr.
                      Vladimir
                      > > Petrenko saying that he refused to sign off on the counting
                      committee's
                      > > report.
                      > >
                      > > > Show me please the statements
                      > > > confirming what you say.
                      > >
                      > > Please show us the scanned document from the Sobor, with Fr.
                      Vladimir
                      > > Petrenko's signature on it.
                      > >
                      > > > The "Count" is there, every member who was
                      > > > there physically present knows exactly what happened in their
                      > > > presence and you are trying to make it seem like there was some
                      > > > discrepancy about the actual RATIFICATION of the resolution.
                      Yours
                      > > > is an out right MISREPRESENTATION >>>BY YOU<<< of what took
                      place at
                      > > > the SOBOR, and unless you present documentation based on
                      factual
                      > > > proof, your statements are misguided at least, if not out right
                      > > > LIES.
                      > >
                      > > Ask Fr. Vladimir Petrenko. In lieu of that, publish the minutes,
                      post
                      > > scanned SOBOR documents.
                      > >
                      > > We have been asking for documentation from the SOBOR for weeks,
                      if not
                      > > months, and it has not been forthcoming. Where are the minutes?
                      > >
                      > > Where are the transcriptions of the questions by the delegates,
                      their
                      > > comments, and the answers to them that were to have been entered
                      into
                      > > the minutes?
                      > >
                      > > > I was there and every member who was present is a witness to
                      > > > the facts.
                      > >
                      > > Let all the members of ROCOR hear all the facts of SOBOR, as
                      documented
                      > > by the minutes. All we have heard and seen are the pro-union
                      speeches.
                      > >
                      > > > YOU ARE A DISIMINATOR OF FALSE INFORMATION. I accuse you
                      > > > personally, until you >>>Melissa Bushunow<<< show your sources,
                      of
                      > > > FABRICATING A LIE about the SOBOR!
                      > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      > > >
                      > > The disseminators of false information are those who willfully
                      stifled
                      > > discussion on the MP'S sergianist, ecumenist activities at SOBOR,
                      and
                      > > those who continue to do so by not publishing the minutes.
                      > >
                      > > Melissa Bushunow
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------------------------
                      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
                      Committee,
                      > > > > > refused to> sign off on the vote, but his name was posted
                      > > > anyway.
                      > > > > > > Sound familiar? > Melissa Bushunow
                      > > > > > --------------------------------------------------->
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This is just unfair, the whole assembly is witness to the
                      fact
                      > > > of
                      > > > > > the vote count and the almost unanimous out come.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Father Vladimir's personal actions aside, the vote was the
                      vote.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This is just outrageous misrepresentation!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There have been numerous misrepresentations of what went on
                      at
                      > > > Sobor
                      > > > > and elsewhere. That Fr. Vladimir Petrenko refused to sign off
                      on
                      > > > the
                      > > > > vote count is the truth. That someone posted his name to it,
                      > > > despite
                      > > > > his refusal, to give the impression that its fairness was
                      > > > uncontested
                      > > > > -- that is the real misrepresentation.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Melissa Bushunow
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > GOD HELP YOU FOR SUCH CALCULATED AND GROSSLY UNFAIR
                      POSTING.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      ==============================================================
                      > > > > > -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
                      > > > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Since the discussion has returned to the voting question:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On Aug 8, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Fr. Alexander Lebedeff wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Finally, I would like to remind people to look at the
                      > > > official vote
                      > > > > > > > tally on the Resolution, found at:
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > >
                      http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2006/5ensoborvote.html
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Here we see that with 124 members voting, and each
                      paragraph
                      > > > > > being
                      > > > > > > > voted on separately, out of a total cumulative 868
                      votes,
                      > > > there
                      > > > > > were,
                      > > > > > > > cumulatively, 843 "yes" votes, 7 "no" votes, and 18
                      > > > abstentions.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Note carefully also who the members of the Counting
                      > > > Committee
                      > > > > > were:
                      > > > > > > > President--Fr. Vladimir Petrenko from the South
                      American
                      > > > > > > > Diocese, Protodeacon Andre Meillassoux (Western
                      European
                      > > > > > Diocese)
                      > > > > > > > and Alexander Ivanovich Mytilin ( Odessa Diocese).
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > It would be hard to believe that the representatives of
                      the
                      > > > > > South
                      > > > > > > > American and Odessa Dioceses would have been biased in
                      > > > favor of
                      > > > > > > > rapprochement. . .
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Witj love in Christ,
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Fr. Vladimir Petrenko, President of the Counting
                      Committee,
                      > > > > > refused to
                      > > > > > > sign off on the vote, but his name was posted anyway.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Sound familiar?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Melissa Bushunow
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > On Sep 29, 2006, at 12:42 PM, Bushunow, Peter wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Priest Victor Boldewskul writes:
                      > > > > > > > >On a side note, someone tried to cast a shadow over
                      the
                      > > > > > procedure of
                      > > > > > > > the voting. The floor that day was controlled by the V.
                      Rev.
                      > > > > > > > >Gregory Naumenko, who is the rector of Holy Protection
                      > > > Parish
                      > > > > > in
                      > > > > > > > Rochester NY. Those who know Fr.. Gregory personally
                      know
                      > > > that
                      > > > > > > is
                      > > > > > > > very much concerned about the welfare of his flock,
                      some of
                      > > > > > whom are
                      > > > > > > > openly against the process of reconciliation, and have
                      not
                      > > > > > > > >issued statements of support for our bishops in this
                      > > > regard.
                      > > > > > No one
                      > > > > > > > would accused Fr. Gregory of being part of any plot to
                      push
                      > > > > > > > >anything through one way or the other. Likewise, the
                      > > > > > Resolution
                      > > > > > > > itself
                      > > > > > > > was presented by His Eminence Archbishop Hilarion.
                      Again,
                      > > > > > > > >Vladyka has an impecible reputation of fairness.
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > > Yes, Fr. Victor, the voting was done incorrectly.
                      > > > > > > > The delegates heard speeches for three days, then
                      Vladika
                      > > > > > Agaphangel
                      > > > > > > > asked that the actual Act be read. Father Alexander
                      gave a
                      > > > > > > > presentation. The actual Act, a "draft" of which is now
                      > > > > > available on
                      > > > > > > > the internet, as not presented to the delegates. The
                      > > > delegates
                      > > > > > voted
                      > > > > > > > paragraph by paragraph on a resolution that was very
                      > > > carefully
                      > > > > > written
                      > > > > > > > to express well-meaning sentiment but no firm
                      substance. The
                      > > > > > voting
                      > > > > > > > was
                      > > > > > > > by affirmation -- not a closed, written vote. The
                      > > > resolution as
                      > > > > > a
                      > > > > > > > whole
                      > > > > > > > was not brought up for a vote.
                      > > > > > > > Father Alexander has indicated in an email, in contrast
                      to
                      > > > what
                      > > > > > was
                      > > > > > > > announced at the Council, that records of the
                      proceedings
                      > > > are
                      > > > > > not
                      > > > > > > > going
                      > > > > > > > to be made available for us to read. A shame.
                      > > > > > > > Peter
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > >
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