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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: How many have been to Russia?

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  • larry most
    GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because actually I love Russian tradition. What it has to
    Message 1 of 52 , Oct 2, 2006
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      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      Dear George,
      It has Nothing to do with ethnic traditions, because
      actually I love Russian tradition. What it has to do
      with is "tone" or attitude. The Russian churches seem
      to be pre-occupied with "form". Is this done "right"
      do you dress in a "proper" way. Are you doing all the
      "right" things, etc. If a kid comes into Church in a
      pair of jeans, especially a girl "O My Gosh, the sky
      will fall". And apparently to Russians, God has no
      sense of humour. The Church we are "migrating" to has
      very little of that. The folks dress casually, but the
      whole congregation is enthusiastic in the responses
      during the liturgy. They have things for kids to do
      and it is a much more relaxed atmosphere. They do a
      few things I don't really care for, but hey, nothings
      going to be perfect. Also, my family has always used
      the "new calendar", and for us the old calendar
      dosen't work. All of our other Orthodox friends are
      always 13 days ahead of us, not just Christmas, but
      everyother feast day. In Michigan there are only a
      hand full of Orthodox Churches on old calendar. I know
      this sounds terrible and awful, but I like to LOVE God
      and His Church, not TREMBLE AND FEAR it. That's why
      I'm going to the Antiochain Church, it is more like
      the "old country", MY old country.
      Love in Christ,
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
      PS. At St. Marys Church, it is almost all "natives"
      aka Americans and they actually invite not yet
      Orthodox kids to their outings.
      Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
      --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

      > I have found in speaking with folks who insist that
      > English-speaking
      > parishes like the Antiochians are better because
      > they ignore ethnic
      > traditions in fact are often the most staunch of the
      > 'ethnic-
      > clubists'; the only difference being that they wish
      > to celebrate the
      > English language and American customs instead of
      > Russian, Greek,
      > Serbian, etc; and they absolutely hate any in their
      > parishes
      > observing them.
      >
      > George
      >
      >
      > On Sep 30, 2006, at 10:34 AM, larry most wrote:
      >
      > > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
      > > Dear Elizabeth,
      > > Thanks for an excellent post. Some of the Orthodox
      > > don't want the Church, they want an ethnic club,
      > > especially in Greek, Serbian, and Russian
      > parishes.
      > > Which is probably why I will soon be on my way to
      > an
      > > Antiochian parish, which is more Christ, than
      > ethnic
      > > stuff. I like all of ethnic things, but that is
      > not
      > > why I go to Church.
      > > Love in Christ,
      > > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
      > >
      > > --- boulia_1 <eledkovsky@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Why do some people equate Orthodoxy with
      > exclusion,
      > > > division, walling-
      > > > off, ghetto-ism and the idea that only exclusive
      > > > small groups are
      > > > able to "preserve" Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is not a
      > > > cucumber that needs
      > > > pickling, it is the Living Church! And Christ
      > was
      > > > clear in his
      > > > dealings with the rule-book-thumping temple
      > leaders
      > > > of His day, and
      > > > what He thought of their proud exclusivity.
      > > >
      > > > There are parts of NYS and NJ rife with orthodox
      > of
      > > > another kind,
      > > > whose children are starting to resemble
      > something
      > > > out of that
      > > > movie "Deliverance" because they are so
      > exclusionary
      > > > that their
      > > > population has become inbred. Is that what we
      > want
      > > > in our Church?
      > > >
      > > > "Orthodoxy" *is* about trying to go back home --
      > to
      > > > the Home of our
      > > > Heavenly Father. It happens that the (relatively
      > > > short!) history of
      > > > ROCOR (note the NAME: RUSSIAN Orthodox Church
      > > > OUTSIDE of RUSSIA)
      > > > compels -- and has always anticipated -- the
      > return
      > > > of one part of
      > > > the Russian Church (that part "Outside of
      > Russia")
      > > > to the other, when
      > > > it is free of the Godless regime that forced the
      > > > emigration of
      > > > ROCOR's founders. It's just that, for so long,
      > this
      > > > seemed like an
      > > > impossible dream, one that began to be
      > forgotten.
      > > >
      > > > Those who speak of a change in ROCOR's "path"
      > should
      > > > recognize that
      > > > the biggest change in ROCOR's historical path
      > was
      > > > the one that led
      > > > to 'missionary' work and expansion in
      > > > non-Russian-emigre communities.
      > > > Those who think that ROCOR and Russia are not
      > > > necessarily and/or
      > > > ought not be linked, just don't understand the
      > > > history beyond their
      > > > own lifetimes and involvement. So it seems to
      > me.
      > > > Now, there are
      > > > those who will disagree about how ROCOR and
      > Russia
      > > > should be linked,
      > > > and I'm not talking about you right now (Volodia
      > > > K.!!)...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Elizabeth
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, spiridon
      > > > <text164@...> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > So I guess it is much about Ethnicity, and the
      > > > embracing of
      > > > the "Moscow Patriarch" is all about russian
      > > > heritage, right? what
      > > > about Orthodox Christianity, why does it have to
      > be
      > > > compromised
      > > > because of ethnicity and russians trying to go
      > back
      > > > home- you are
      > > > free to go back home anytime you want, and you
      > can
      > > > leave Orthodox
      > > > right here, we will preserve it , our numbers
      > might
      > > > be few, but it
      > > > will preserve it...
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > DDD <dimitradd@...> wrote:
      > > > > On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:13:32 -0000, Fr.
      > > > John R. Shaw
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > " Many of them used to look forward to a day
      > when
      > > > they could "go
      > > > > home": back to Russia, when the Soviet regime
      > > > would collapse, and
      > > > > the old order be restored."
      > > > >
      > > > > snip
      > > > >
      > > > > " But the biggest problem is that several
      > > > generations have now
      > > > > intervened since the revolution and the flight
      > of
      > > > the "White
      > > > > Emigration" that became ROCOR.
      > > > >
      > > > > The offspring, or grandchildren of the
      > emigres,
      > > > usually never have
      > > > > lived in Russia, never saw the old Russia,
      > knew
      > > > the life of the
      > > > > Russian Church before these disputes, or
      > > > experienced Soviet rule."
      > > > >
      > > >
      > ____________________________________________________
      > > > >
      > > > > DD: Which brings up a question: How many of
      > those
      > > > who are opposed
      > > > to reunification or communion with the Church in
      > > > Russia (MP, that is)
      > > > have actually been to Russia? Visited Russian
      > (MP)
      > > > churches and
      > > > monasteries? Spoken with clergy and faithful?
      > > > >
      > > > > (No editorial here, would just like to know if
      > > > people have their
      > > > opinions based on what they have seen, or based
      > on
      > > > what they have not
      > > > seen.)
      > > > >
      > > > > --Dimitra
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ---------------------------------
      > > > > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone
      > > > Calls to the US (and
      > > > 30+ countries) for 2ยข/min or less.
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      >
      === message truncated ===


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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
      Message 52 of 52 , Oct 6, 2006
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        GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        Dear George,
        Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully
        thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
        this same subject today, and we remembered that the
        priest at the Church that we attended for over 20 year
        was a wonderful holy man (he is the priest that
        Chrismated our family into the Orthodox Church from
        the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. He passed away
        last month and we went to his funeral. We remembered
        today in talking, that his Matushka (Kathleen) never
        wore a scarf or hat and quite often wore slacks to
        Church, yet she was probably one of the best priests
        wives ever. I never encountered this clothing
        "problem" until we began attending the local ROCOR
        parish in Atlantic Mine. Then on this and other
        groupes it was heavily debated. To me it is spending
        energy on something that could be spent on something
        else. I guess,if you want to enforce a dress code,
        that is your choice, but don't be surprised if you
        have nearly empty churches.
        I wish all of the Churches that fret about what to
        wear, all the best. I have other things to worry
        about.
        The same for all of the old calendar churches in the
        US. If you can get the other jurisdictions to go back,
        great. I'll be a happy man. If not, good luck in
        spreading the good news of Orthodoxy.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

        > Larry Writes:
        > GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER
        > Dear George,
        > I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
        > think about what you wrote.
        > Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the
        > "proper
        > ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
        > is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is
        > quite
        > a different story.
        >
        > I respond:
        > I think it can be a problem for new comers though I
        > suspect we disagree on what that means. That said
        > the first Orthodox church I went to, and was
        > baptised into was fairly liberal on such things.
        > They were also new calendar, had pews etc. Great
        > church, and great folks there too.
        >
        > Larry continues:
        > I have found the Church and I CAN
        > live with all of that, but newcomers come, look ,
        > and
        > LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
        > exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
        > idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
        > way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen
        > hours
        > of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot
        > of
        > "dressing up".
        >
        > I respond:
        > What I said was that folks should dress respectfully
        > when going to 'Gods House'. It's a straw man to ask
        > 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows
        > what clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and
        > which they where to an important event to show
        > respect. At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or
        > shirts with holes in them. It doesn't take much to
        > know that to show respect for God AT LEAST the same
        > should standard should apply and yes it different
        > for different folks. Either way it behooves the
        > church to at least remind folks that there are some
        > commandments regarding prayer and attire that they
        > should ponder.
        >
        > In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to
        > borrow a wrap around skirt and wear the head scarf
        > she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants,
        > before they'd let her visit the church. I can see
        > some debate as to whether the church should REQUIRE
        > this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it
        > by having a sign reminding folks of this, and having
        > scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for those
        > unprepared but interested in following these
        > commandments.
        >
        > That said young people in Russia are no
        > encyclopedias of Church tradition. There are many
        > who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm
        > sure you've seen. I didn't see anyone dressing down
        > when I went to church there though. I will say that
        > there needs to be more of an effort there to infom
        > folks of these tradtions and how one typically
        > conducts themselves in church. Many young people
        > were baptised post 1992 but know little about these
        > things. (The proposed basic Orthodox Culture
        > classes in Russia would probably do this).
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > Maybe you know more than I do.
        > There's nothing disrespectful about actually
        > enjoying
        > Liturgy.
        > I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going
        > to
        > DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
        > and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
        >
        >
        > I respond:
        > Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing,
        > and didn't say much at all about Feasts, and basic
        > respect is in play too. My freinds birthday is a
        > celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying
        > but that doesn't mean I pick whatever off the floor
        > to wear for that either. Further one should respect
        > other at liturgy by not wearing something
        > distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY the liturgy
        > too; they've turned it into an R&B concert. Frankly
        > I find that disrespectful also.
        >
        > Larry writes:
        > As far as the old calendar not working, you are
        > right.
        > It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi
        > who
        > have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use
        > it.
        > The new calendar never should have gotten started
        > but
        > here it is.
        > It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
        > staring at us it has to do with celebrating days
        > with
        > our families and friends. If you like the Old
        > Calendar
        > fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
        > The Church has done everything for me and I try to
        > do
        > all that I can for the church.
        > I just do the best that I can.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        >
        > I respond:
        > As I said I think its more about motivation with the
        > calendar. I don't really see anything bad about
        > having double the feastdays in the year, and often
        > observe some twice (attending the local new calendar
        > parish one day and the old calendar parish on the
        > other).
        >
        > You're other post and this one seems very concered
        > with new folks.
        >
        > I orginally attended a presbyterian church my
        > parents still attend. I was never baptised but did
        > go regurally as a child. Sunday school was a party
        > but not real informative. Dress was casual. Heck
        > pretty much everything was casual.
        >
        > If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to
        > an Orthodox parish I probably would have written off
        > the church as just the same ol same ol.
        >
        > The protestants have made an art out of making
        > church fun, and casual and it hasn't exactly worked
        > out great for them.
        >
        > I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if
        > the rationale is making it easier for folks to come
        > to the church by lessening what the church is that's
        > dangerous thinking. Sooner or latter the baby gets
        > thrown out with the bathwater.
        >
        > George
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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