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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Greetings with the Feast, *Without* Bitterness

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  • michael nikitin
    Fr.John Shaw wrote: But there was clearly a general feeling of joy as the Sobor closed I was told the feeling was more of a relief and uncertainty of what
    Message 1 of 52 , Sep 30, 2006
      Fr.John Shaw wrote:
      "But there was clearly a general feeling of joy as the Sobor closed"

      I was told the feeling was more of a relief and uncertainty of what will happen next.

      What is certain about the meeting is there was a general feeling of unsatisfaction on the
      part of those who want to waite until the MP will leave the WCC, ecumenism and Sergianism.
      This stipulation that the bishops once gave the MP is being swept under the rug and will not
      be honored and our bishops don't care. If they did, they would waite and not cause another
      schism in ROCOR like they already caused, whether unwittingly or not.

      Michael N

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
      To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 4:35:04 PM
      Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Greetings with the Feast, *Without* Bitterness

      --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@.. .> wrote:

      > At 09:42 AM 9/29/2006, Peter Bushunow wrote:

      > >The delegates heard speeches for three days, then Vladika Agaphangel

      > >asked that the actual Act be read.

      JRS: There were so many points for Fr. Alexander to address, that he let the above mistake go.

      However, the name of the bishop from the Ukraine is "Agafangel" or else "Agathangel" , but not "Agaphangel" .

      This is a Greek name, from "Agathos" ("good"), from which we also get the feminine name "Agatha", and "Angel".

      In Russian, there is no sound corresponding to "th" in Greek and English, so the letter "theta", or "fita" as it is pronounced in Russian, is realized as "f".

      But to spell "Agafangel" with a "ph" is to demonstrate a lack of familiarity, not only with Greek, but also with Church Slavonic and historical Russian orthography.

      That's only a little mistake, but it serves as a preview of much more serious errors made by Peter Bushunow, about the Sobor and its decisions.

      Fr. Alexander wrote:

      > 16. Each delegate may speak on one topic no more than two times.

      > However, those present remember how many times Fr. Michael

      > Luboshchinsky got up and spoke on the same topic, or Fr. Viktor

      > Dobrov, or Fr. Igor Chitikov, or Archimandrite John from Ukraine, or

      > Peter Paganuzzi, or many others.

      JRS: Actually, several of those people spoke so many times (and repeating the same things) that I would have had to put check marks against their names to keep track of "how many times".

      One of the above-mentioned delegates sat right next to the microphone, so as to be always the first one at it.

      I myself made two or three half-hearted attempts to get in line, but always gave up, because the line would begin with about 8 people, aalmost always the same individuals, always repeating the same things (or else, in the case of Fr. Victor Dobrov, trying to read an unauthorized prepared speech in segments).

      By the time my turn would have come up, the original presentation would have been long ago, and its largely ignored by those who lined up for the microphone.

      And so, I never made any comments or posed any questions at all. I wound up simply returning to my seat and relinquishing my place in line.

      It would have been much more productive, in my view, to have permitted only questions, and not comments, from the floor.

      And the questions might have been handed up in written form to the moderator, who would then have read them to the presenter, for the latter's response to each.

      But there was clearly a general feeling of joy as the Sobor closed, especially after the Sobor

      Resolution had been created (in such a democratic way, at that!) and adopted.

      The Divine Liturgy on that last day was especially wonderful.

      In Christ

      Fr. John R. Shaw


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    • larry most
      GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST GLORY TO HIM FOREVER Dear George, Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
      Message 52 of 52 , Oct 6, 2006
        Dear George,
        Thank you for the very thoughtful and carefully
        thought out reply. My wife and I were talking about
        this same subject today, and we remembered that the
        priest at the Church that we attended for over 20 year
        was a wonderful holy man (he is the priest that
        Chrismated our family into the Orthodox Church from
        the Byzantine Rite Catholic Church. He passed away
        last month and we went to his funeral. We remembered
        today in talking, that his Matushka (Kathleen) never
        wore a scarf or hat and quite often wore slacks to
        Church, yet she was probably one of the best priests
        wives ever. I never encountered this clothing
        "problem" until we began attending the local ROCOR
        parish in Atlantic Mine. Then on this and other
        groupes it was heavily debated. To me it is spending
        energy on something that could be spent on something
        else. I guess,if you want to enforce a dress code,
        that is your choice, but don't be surprised if you
        have nearly empty churches.
        I wish all of the Churches that fret about what to
        wear, all the best. I have other things to worry
        The same for all of the old calendar churches in the
        US. If you can get the other jurisdictions to go back,
        great. I'll be a happy man. If not, good luck in
        spreading the good news of Orthodoxy.
        Love in Christ,
        Sub-deacon Lawrence Most

        --- George Edward Green III <kharaku@...> wrote:

        > Larry Writes:
        > Dear George,
        > I sat on your reply for a couple of days so I could
        > think about what you wrote.
        > Here is my reply. If you are accustomed to the
        > "proper
        > ways" of doing things at Church (and I am) then that
        > is fine, but for folks who come to enqire, it is
        > quite
        > a different story.
        > I respond:
        > I think it can be a problem for new comers though I
        > suspect we disagree on what that means. That said
        > the first Orthodox church I went to, and was
        > baptised into was fairly liberal on such things.
        > They were also new calendar, had pews etc. Great
        > church, and great folks there too.
        > Larry continues:
        > I have found the Church and I CAN
        > live with all of that, but newcomers come, look ,
        > and
        > LEAVE. If you like that it's fine. How do you know
        > exactly how God wants you to dress and what if you
        > idea of "correct" is different from others. By the
        > way, I've never been to Russia, but I have seen
        > hours
        > of Church worship in Russia and I didn't see a lot
        > of
        > "dressing up".
        > I respond:
        > What I said was that folks should dress respectfully
        > when going to 'Gods House'. It's a straw man to ask
        > 'how do you know what God wants'; everyone knows
        > what clothes take them 10 minutes to throw on, and
        > which they where to an important event to show
        > respect. At work I can't wear jeans, flip flops, or
        > shirts with holes in them. It doesn't take much to
        > know that to show respect for God AT LEAST the same
        > should standard should apply and yes it different
        > for different folks. Either way it behooves the
        > church to at least remind folks that there are some
        > commandments regarding prayer and attire that they
        > should ponder.
        > In Russia at a monastary my wife was required to
        > borrow a wrap around skirt and wear the head scarf
        > she'd brought as my wife had worn dress pants,
        > before they'd let her visit the church. I can see
        > some debate as to whether the church should REQUIRE
        > this, but I feel at a minimum it should encourage it
        > by having a sign reminding folks of this, and having
        > scarves and or skirts on hand to borrow for those
        > unprepared but interested in following these
        > commandments.
        > That said young people in Russia are no
        > encyclopedias of Church tradition. There are many
        > who forget or are unaware of such things which I'm
        > sure you've seen. I didn't see anyone dressing down
        > when I went to church there though. I will say that
        > there needs to be more of an effort there to infom
        > folks of these tradtions and how one typically
        > conducts themselves in church. Many young people
        > were baptised post 1992 but know little about these
        > things. (The proposed basic Orthodox Culture
        > classes in Russia would probably do this).
        > Larry writes:
        > Maybe you know more than I do.
        > There's nothing disrespectful about actually
        > enjoying
        > Liturgy.
        > I beg your pardon, but the Church that we are going
        > to
        > DOES celebrate the Feasts,and the Fasts and Holydays
        > and Vespers. And they are not hung up on clothing.
        > I respond:
        > Frankly Holy Scripture is pretty clear on clothing,
        > and didn't say much at all about Feasts, and basic
        > respect is in play too. My freinds birthday is a
        > celebration, and certainly there's a lot of partying
        > but that doesn't mean I pick whatever off the floor
        > to wear for that either. Further one should respect
        > other at liturgy by not wearing something
        > distracting. Some Gospel churchs ENJOY the liturgy
        > too; they've turned it into an R&B concert. Frankly
        > I find that disrespectful also.
        > Larry writes:
        > As far as the old calendar not working, you are
        > right.
        > It is hard to find 20 people north of BayCity, Mi
        > who
        > have even heard of the old calendar. Let alone use
        > it.
        > The new calendar never should have gotten started
        > but
        > here it is.
        > It has NOTHING to do with a problem of "anyone"
        > staring at us it has to do with celebrating days
        > with
        > our families and friends. If you like the Old
        > Calendar
        > fine, but I tried it and it dosen't fit for me.
        > The Church has done everything for me and I try to
        > do
        > all that I can for the church.
        > I just do the best that I can.
        > Love in Christ,
        > Sub-deacon Lawrence Most
        > I respond:
        > As I said I think its more about motivation with the
        > calendar. I don't really see anything bad about
        > having double the feastdays in the year, and often
        > observe some twice (attending the local new calendar
        > parish one day and the old calendar parish on the
        > other).
        > You're other post and this one seems very concered
        > with new folks.
        > I orginally attended a presbyterian church my
        > parents still attend. I was never baptised but did
        > go regurally as a child. Sunday school was a party
        > but not real informative. Dress was casual. Heck
        > pretty much everything was casual.
        > If I'd have seen the same thing when I first went to
        > an Orthodox parish I probably would have written off
        > the church as just the same ol same ol.
        > The protestants have made an art out of making
        > church fun, and casual and it hasn't exactly worked
        > out great for them.
        > I can see areas where lenicny may not hurt if but if
        > the rationale is making it easier for folks to come
        > to the church by lessening what the church is that's
        > dangerous thinking. Sooner or latter the baby gets
        > thrown out with the bathwater.
        > George
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]

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