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So much has changed

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  • Melissa Bushunow
    I have not been to Russia recently, but others have. This is some of what they report: A monastery in St. Petersburg has been beautifully refurbished,
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 28, 2006
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      I have not been to Russia recently, but others have. This is some of
      what they report:

      A monastery in St. Petersburg has been beautifully refurbished,
      including a 200 room guest house (gostinitsa) whose accommodations put
      St. Petersburg hotels to shame. The hegumen told his guests (one a
      clergyman himself) that there used to be four monks, now there are
      twenty.

      This looks wonderful: �highly motivated� monks, a rebuilt monastery.

      When asked what the obediences of the monks are the hegumen answered
      that they are �all administrators.� The garden is a couple of forlorn
      tomato plants. Those who �like to dig� have no place there, but are
      �shipped off.� Women do the work in the monastery. Women cook.
      Women clean.

      The hegumen � who was �powdered� (�napudrenyi�), with short hair and
      and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
      cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
      he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that his
      higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he doesn�t
      answer right away he will be in big trouble.

      This is the dichotomy in Russian church life: The official church, the
      MP with its smart web sites, smooth press releases, polished
      monasteries and churches in the big cities where tourists and newcrews
      see them.

      Then there is, by God�s mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in Russia
      -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
      material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.

      At a women�s monastery outside St. Petersburg the nuns are doing all
      the rebuilding and upkeep themselves, surviving �by a thread.� Not far
      away another church is being rebuilt. �Oh, yes,� said the 85 year old
      priest, �the President �helped� with the foundation. But I had to
      climb up and put on the roof myself.�

      In Divyeyevo, the nuns all have little packs ready; they are ready to
      be sent into exile. Why are Diveyevo nuns readying themselves for
      exile if everything is so hunky-dory in the MP and the
      favorable-to-Orthodoxy Russian Federation?

      I found the 2000 Statement when looking for the English translation of
      the current version of the ACT (it is posted in Russian at
      Portal-Credo.ru). Why post the �Statement of the ROCOR Bishops
      Concerning the Moscow Patriarchate� from 2000? To remind ourselves how
      much some people�s tune has changed in six short years, and to ask why.

      We don�t have to go around looking for �what they can find...in the
      writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
      Patriarchal Church,� as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
      front of our eyes.

      Besides, Vladyka Metropolit Vitalii is only four days dead! The rest of
      the signatories of the 2000 Statement are alive and well, with the
      exception of Bishop Mitrophan who reposed four years ago.

      Fr. David said, �And thank God much has changed in the intervening
      years since these words were spoken... Better to make peace than to try
      and revive old wounds. Let us move forward and not backward.�

      How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
      Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
      Important clergymen openly talk about having �lists of enemies of the
      Church� [State].

      What about the MP not reviving old wounds? They are STILL actively
      trying to grab our Holy Trinity Cathedral in Buenos Aires. The only
      reason they are not using force -- again -- in the Holy Land and other
      places is because they expect to have these properties soon handed to
      them on a platter.

      If we only moved forward and didn�t look backward, didn�t read the
      lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings, didn�t
      reread the anathemas every Sunday of Orthodoxy, didn�t test the
      spirits, then we would find ourselves out of the Orthodox Church, and
      maybe in that --undoubtedly lovely but containing only faint echos of
      snippets of the Truth � Anglican church in London. And if we join the
      MP now we still may.

      Melissa Bushunow













      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick what you want to see. ... JRS: Whoever wrote napudreny makes his bias obvious. Years
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
        wrote:

        >> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
        > writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
        > Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
        > front of our eyes.

        JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick what you want to see.

        > The hegumen – who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi"), with short hair and
        > and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
        > cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
        > he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that his
        > higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he doesn't
        > answer right away he will be in big trouble.

        JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.

        Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who had joined the OCA
        visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an attack similar to the above.

        From what actual information you give in the above account, it sounds as if someone
        visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the buildings are only
        slowly being returned to the monastery.

        The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just before Khruschev's
        renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a church, with several
        priestmonks who conducted services there.

        The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back to religious use; so far
        as I know, the process is still not complete.

        Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra, including, I believe, a
        printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the extensive cemeteries.

        Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for the monks may be
        teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy, which is on the
        premises.

        > Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in Russia
        > -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
        > material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.

        JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between the Russian Church
        *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow Patriarchate.

        This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked the Moscow
        Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests, deacons and others, but to
        a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution".

        But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as you like to think. Our
        church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional Russian iconographic
        style.

        But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at either Jordanville or
        the Synod House is involved.

        Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever expected the
        Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things for us in the parish.

        > How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
        > Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.

        JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the building of two
        Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for the Russians.

        > If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
        > lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...

        JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the Saints, and better yet, the
        homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention the Scriptures, is not
        looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • David-Constantine Wright
        ... Pat. Alexey congratu;ated and awarded the totalitarian dictator Lukashenko. The following is an excellent commentary on this from another list: Sure, he
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          >> How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
          >> Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
          >
          > JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the

          Pat. Alexey congratu;ated and awarded the totalitarian dictator
          Lukashenko. The following is an excellent commentary on this from
          another list:

          Sure, he [Luka]'s your friend if you're in the MP's jurisdiction
          *and* you're not critical of his mafia regime. If you're in a non-MP
          Orthodox jurisdiction, you can't get a government permit to worship
          (which is required in Belarus, even for something as mundane as
          having a prayer group in your apartment). For the most parts
          Catholics can worship in freedom, but they still receive a degree of
          harassment for printing materials and purchasing new space.
          Protestants are hounded to no end.

          But even if you're Orthodox in good standing with the MP, if criticize
          Luka publicly or are a political opponent, Orthodox or not you'll lose
          your job or go to jail. At worst, you disappear.

          I would expect the Church to award leaders who act in ways consistent
          with a real Christian and not just because a ruler rewards favors and
          perks to particular bishops who say nice things about him in public,
          or because he and certain bishops share certain political ambitions
          for their shared ethnic group in Belarus. I don't see how a leader
          who's sanctioned a death squad in his country, imprisons political
          opponents, rigs elections, orders police to beat women and elderly
          protesters, and keeps his wife under house arrest while he's siring
          children with mistresses is worthy of even the lowest Church award.
          Such an individual doesn't help the Church's cause, it hurts it and
          our image. People aren't fools and they see what's going on as an
          example of what's considered a pious Christian 'tude in the Orthodox
          Church. It also leads to an even greater cynical attitude in Orthodox
          believers and in atheists in Belarus towards Church leadership.
          --------------------------------------------------------------------

          When one sees this behavior one has to wonder what has really changed.

          In Christ,
          Rd. D-C

          +-------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
          | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
          | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
          | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
          +-------------------------------------------------------------+
        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: What has changed from the Soviet days, is that Pres. Lukashenko supports the Church. Remember that the United States has often supported dictators, or
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "David-Constantine Wright"
            <constantinewright@...> wrote:

            > Pat. Alexey congratu;ated and awarded the totalitarian dictator
            > Lukashenko. The following is an excellent commentary on this from
            > another list:

            > When one sees this behavior one has to wonder what has really changed.

            JRS: What has changed from the Soviet days, is that Pres. Lukashenko supports the Church.

            Remember that the United States has often supported dictators, or "authoritarian heads of
            state" in the past, provided they were pro-US.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • V. Boitchenko
            Dear Melissa, I am a native of St. Petersburg and the last time I was there was in May of 2006. I think I must know every single monastery in the area. Could
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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              Dear Melissa,

              I am a native of St. Petersburg and the last time I was there was in May of 2006. I think I must know every single monastery in the area. Could your author be more specific about monasteries he has in mind. I must say that it sounds like one of many lies that circulate on the Internet. It is one of those lies that at some point made me reevaluate my own position about the MP.

              viatcheslav



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Melissa Bushunow" <cafeconlechemom@...>
              To: "Synod list" <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:43 PM
              Subject: [orthodox-synod] So much has changed



              I have not been to Russia recently, but others have. This is some of
              what they report:

              A monastery in St. Petersburg has been beautifully refurbished,
              including a 200 room guest house (gostinitsa) whose accommodations put
              St. Petersburg hotels to shame. The hegumen told his guests (one a
              clergyman himself) that there used to be four monks, now there are
              twenty.

              This looks wonderful: �highly motivated� monks, a rebuilt monastery.

              When asked what the obediences of the monks are the hegumen answered
              that they are �all administrators.� The garden is a couple of forlorn
              tomato plants. Those who �like to dig� have no place there, but are
              �shipped off.� Women do the work in the monastery. Women cook.
              Women clean.

              The hegumen � who was �powdered� (�napudrenyi�), with short hair and
              and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
              cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
              he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that his
              higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he doesn�t
              answer right away he will be in big trouble.

              This is the dichotomy in Russian church life: The official church, the
              MP with its smart web sites, smooth press releases, polished
              monasteries and churches in the big cities where tourists and newcrews
              see them.

              Then there is, by God�s mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in Russia
              -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
              material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.

              At a women�s monastery outside St. Petersburg the nuns are doing all
              the rebuilding and upkeep themselves, surviving �by a thread.� Not far
              away another church is being rebuilt. �Oh, yes,� said the 85 year old
              priest, �the President �helped� with the foundation. But I had to
              climb up and put on the roof myself.�

              In Divyeyevo, the nuns all have little packs ready; they are ready to
              be sent into exile. Why are Diveyevo nuns readying themselves for
              exile if everything is so hunky-dory in the MP and the
              favorable-to-Orthodoxy Russian Federation?

              I found the 2000 Statement when looking for the English translation of
              the current version of the ACT (it is posted in Russian at
              Portal-Credo.ru). Why post the �Statement of the ROCOR Bishops
              Concerning the Moscow Patriarchate� from 2000? To remind ourselves how
              much some people�s tune has changed in six short years, and to ask why.

              We don�t have to go around looking for �what they can find...in the
              writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
              Patriarchal Church,� as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
              front of our eyes.

              Besides, Vladyka Metropolit Vitalii is only four days dead! The rest of
              the signatories of the 2000 Statement are alive and well, with the
              exception of Bishop Mitrophan who reposed four years ago.

              Fr. David said, �And thank God much has changed in the intervening
              years since these words were spoken... Better to make peace than to try
              and revive old wounds. Let us move forward and not backward.�

              How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
              Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
              Important clergymen openly talk about having �lists of enemies of the
              Church� [State].

              What about the MP not reviving old wounds? They are STILL actively
              trying to grab our Holy Trinity Cathedral in Buenos Aires. The only
              reason they are not using force -- again -- in the Holy Land and other
              places is because they expect to have these properties soon handed to
              them on a platter.

              If we only moved forward and didn�t look backward, didn�t read the
              lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings, didn�t
              reread the anathemas every Sunday of Orthodoxy, didn�t test the
              spirits, then we would find ourselves out of the Orthodox Church, and
              maybe in that --undoubtedly lovely but containing only faint echos of
              snippets of the Truth � Anglican church in London. And if we join the
              MP now we still may.

              Melissa Bushunow













              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bill
              we (US) still do too! Condoleeza just signed last week a big oil deal with the President of Equatorial Giunea on the west coast of africa, one of the most
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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                we (US) still do too!

                Condoleeza just signed last week a big oil deal with the "President" of Equatorial Giunea on the west coast of africa, one of the most repressive regimes around where poeple are talken in the night, locked up and never heard from again, the majority of the population are in various stages of starvation while the leaders take millions of dollars in kickbacks from our oil campanies,

                She even had a big smile on her face while she was shaking his hand

                unfortunately you dont hear about it in the news

                bill towner


                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "David-Constantine Wright"
                <constantinewright@...> wrote:

                > Pat. Alexey congratu;ated and awarded the totalitarian dictator
                > Lukashenko. The following is an excellent commentary on this from
                > another list:

                > When one sees this behavior one has to wonder what has really changed.

                JRS: What has changed from the Soviet days, is that Pres. Lukashenko supports the Church.

                Remember that the United States has often supported dictators, or "authoritarian heads of
                state" in the past, provided they were pro-US.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw






                ---------------------------------
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • michael nikitin
                The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their eyes all the appearance of
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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                  The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their eyes all the appearance of church grandeur solemn services, church order, and such while on the inside there would be total betrayal of the Spirit of
                  Christ. Is this not what we see in the Soviet church? Patriarchs, Metropolitans, all the priestly and monastic orders and at the very same time, an alliance with the God-haters, that is, a manifest betrayal of Christ.(Holy Metr.Philaret letter to Abbess Magdalena).

                  NOTE:
                  The letter to Abbess Magdalena and the one to Fr. Victor Potapov can
                  also be found in the on-line archive of Tserkovnie Novosti / Church
                  News, edited by Matushka Anastasia Schatiloff (ne Grabbe):
                  http://www.roacusa.org/documents.html

                  Michael N

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06:49 AM
                  Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed

                  --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@ ...>
                  wrote:

                  >> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
                  > writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
                  > Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
                  > front of our eyes.

                  JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick what you want to see.

                  > The hegumen � who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi" ), with short hair and
                  > and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
                  > cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
                  > he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that his
                  > higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he doesn't
                  > answer right away he will be in big trouble.

                  JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.

                  Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who had joined the OCA
                  visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an attack similar to the above.

                  From what actual information you give in the above account, it sounds as if someone
                  visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the buildings are only
                  slowly being returned to the monastery.

                  The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just before Khruschev's
                  renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a church, with several
                  priestmonks who conducted services there.

                  The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back to religious use; so far
                  as I know, the process is still not complete.

                  Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra, including, I believe, a
                  printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the extensive cemeteries.

                  Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for the monks may be
                  teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy, which is on the
                  premises.

                  > Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in Russia
                  > -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
                  > material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.

                  JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between the Russian Church
                  *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow Patriarchate.

                  This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked the Moscow
                  Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests, deacons and others, but to
                  a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution" .

                  But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as you like to think. Our
                  church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional Russian iconographic
                  style.

                  But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at either Jordanville or
                  the Synod House is involved.

                  Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever expected the
                  Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things for us in the parish.

                  > How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                  > Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.

                  JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the building of two
                  Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for the Russians.

                  > If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
                  > lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...

                  JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the Saints, and better yet, the
                  homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention the Scriptures, is not
                  looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Melissa Bushunow
                  ... Melissa responds: This person is simply well acquainted with Jordanville-style monastics, and before this trip supported union. Now? Well, you seem to
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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                    On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:

                    >
                    > JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.


                    Melissa responds: This person is simply well acquainted with
                    Jordanville-style monastics, and before this trip supported union.
                    Now? Well, you seem to think he's biased.

                    > Viatcheslav: I must say that it sounds like one of many lies that
                    > circulate on the Internet.

                    I assure you it's not, and he reported the same to Metropolitan Laurus.
                    Not that a Metropolitan can't be lied to, but this is not the person
                    to do it.

                    Melissa Bushunow






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • George Edward Green III
                    Not to mention calling Kazakhstan an ideal democracy whist calling Russia NOT a democracy. George Green ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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                      Not to mention calling Kazakhstan an ideal democracy whist calling
                      Russia NOT a democracy.

                      George Green

                      On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Bill wrote:

                      > we (US) still do too!
                      >
                      > Condoleeza just signed last week a big oil deal with the
                      > "President" of Equatorial Giunea on the west coast of africa, one
                      > of the most repressive regimes around where poeple are talken in
                      > the night, locked up and never heard from again, the majority of
                      > the population are in various stages of starvation while the
                      > leaders take millions of dollars in kickbacks from our oil campanies,
                      >
                      > She even had a big smile on her face while she was shaking his hand
                      >
                      > unfortunately you dont hear about it in the news
                      >
                      > bill towner
                      >
                      >
                      > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                      > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "David-Constantine Wright"
                      > <constantinewright@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Pat. Alexey congratu;ated and awarded the totalitarian dictator
                      > > Lukashenko. The following is an excellent commentary on this from
                      > > another list:
                      >
                      > > When one sees this behavior one has to wonder what has really
                      > changed.
                      >
                      > JRS: What has changed from the Soviet days, is that Pres.
                      > Lukashenko supports the Church.
                      >
                      > Remember that the United States has often supported dictators, or
                      > "authoritarian heads of
                      > state" in the past, provided they were pro-US.
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • George Edward Green III
                      I just returned from Russia. While there I visited several monasteries far from Moscow, and St Peterburg and what you re alleging is a lie, frankly you know
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
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                        I just returned from Russia.

                        While there I visited several monasteries far from Moscow, and St
                        Peterburg and what you're alleging is a lie, frankly you know it's a
                        lie, and it's vile you suggest what you do.

                        George

                        On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:29 AM, michael nikitin wrote:

                        > The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a
                        > terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their
                        > eyes all the appearance of church grandeur solemn services, church
                        > order, and such while on the inside there would be total betrayal
                        > of the Spirit of
                        > Christ. Is this not what we see in the Soviet church? Patriarchs,
                        > Metropolitans, all the priestly and monastic orders and at the very
                        > same time, an alliance with the God-haters, that is, a manifest
                        > betrayal of Christ.(Holy Metr.Philaret letter to Abbess Magdalena).
                        >
                        > NOTE:
                        > The letter to Abbess Magdalena and the one to Fr. Victor Potapov can
                        > also be found in the on-line archive of Tserkovnie Novosti / Church
                        > News, edited by Matushka Anastasia Schatiloff (ne Grabbe):
                        > http://www.roacusa.org/documents.html
                        >
                        > Michael N
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                        > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06:49 AM
                        > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed
                        >
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow
                        > <cafeconlechemom@ ...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >>> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
                        >> writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
                        >> Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
                        >> front of our eyes.
                        >
                        > JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick
                        > what you want to see.
                        >
                        >> The hegumen – who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi" ), with short hair and
                        >> and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
                        >> cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
                        >> he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that
                        >> his
                        >> higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he
                        >> doesn't
                        >> answer right away he will be in big trouble.
                        >
                        > JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.
                        >
                        > Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who
                        > had joined the OCA
                        > visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an
                        > attack similar to the above.
                        >
                        > From what actual information you give in the above account, it
                        > sounds as if someone
                        > visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the
                        > buildings are only
                        > slowly being returned to the monastery.
                        >
                        > The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just
                        > before Khruschev's
                        > renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a
                        > church, with several
                        > priestmonks who conducted services there.
                        >
                        > The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back
                        > to religious use; so far
                        > as I know, the process is still not complete.
                        >
                        > Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra,
                        > including, I believe, a
                        > printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the
                        > extensive cemeteries.
                        >
                        > Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for
                        > the monks may be
                        > teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy,
                        > which is on the
                        > premises.
                        >
                        >> Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in
                        >> Russia
                        >> -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
                        >> material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.
                        >
                        > JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between
                        > the Russian Church
                        > *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow
                        > Patriarchate.
                        >
                        > This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked
                        > the Moscow
                        > Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests,
                        > deacons and others, but to
                        > a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution" .
                        >
                        > But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as
                        > you like to think. Our
                        > church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional
                        > Russian iconographic
                        > style.
                        >
                        > But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at
                        > either Jordanville or
                        > the Synod House is involved.
                        >
                        > Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever
                        > expected the
                        > Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things
                        > for us in the parish.
                        >
                        >> How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                        >> Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
                        >
                        > JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the
                        > building of two
                        > Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for
                        > the Russians.
                        >
                        >> If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
                        >> lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...
                        >
                        > JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the
                        > Saints, and better yet, the
                        > homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention
                        > the Scriptures, is not
                        > looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        In all honesty I must add here, that I was very upset and uncomfortable in the Saint Alexander Nevsky Lavra (Monastery), Saint Petersburg. Our official visit
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In all honesty I must add here, that I was very upset and
                          uncomfortable in the Saint Alexander Nevsky Lavra (Monastery), Saint
                          Petersburg. Our official visit there was the rare time that I felt
                          this way. But this was one day, and one visit, compared to the
                          DEEPLY MOVING and encouraging experiences EVERYWHERE else that we
                          had been, Ekaterinburg, Alapaevsk, Kursk, Diveevo, Moskva and even
                          the REST OF SAINT PETERBURG!

                          Metropolitan Anthony (Chrapovitsky's) own memoirs, as recorded by
                          Archbishop Nikon (Rklitsky), witness to his own criticism of the
                          peculiarities of Saint Petersburg clergy and monastics of pre-
                          revolutionary times. Would we then condemn all of pre-revolutionary
                          Russian Orthodoxy for the few bad examples that did exist? I think
                          not!

                          By the way I should add also, that I had been to Russia by myself a
                          short time before I was a member of the official delegation
                          accompanying Metropolitan Lavr. Our Delegation was greeted and
                          escorted in the highest honor and dignity. When I had roamed about
                          alone and was unknown and ignored during my personal visit,
                          everything I saw in and around the Churches was EXACTLY as
                          was "shown off" to the official delegation when I was PARADED AROUND
                          with honors.
                          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
                          <cafeconlechemom@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:06 AM, Fr. John R. Shaw wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.
                          >
                          >
                          > Melissa responds: This person is simply well acquainted with
                          > Jordanville-style monastics, and before this trip supported
                          union.
                          > Now? Well, you seem to think he's biased.
                          >
                          > > Viatcheslav: I must say that it sounds like one of many lies
                          that
                          > > circulate on the Internet.
                          >
                          > I assure you it's not, and he reported the same to Metropolitan
                          Laurus.
                          > Not that a Metropolitan can't be lied to, but this is not the
                          person
                          > to do it.
                          >
                          > Melissa Bushunow
                          >
                          >
                        • David-Constantine Wright
                          ... pro- ... The US is a secular state; it is not the Orthodox Church... which adheres to a higher standard. Nor is it a particularly good thing for the US to
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 29, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                            <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                            >

                            >Remember that the United States has often supported dictators,
                            >or "authoritarian heads of state" in the past, provided they were
                            pro-
                            >US.

                            The US is a secular state; it is not the Orthodox Church... which
                            adheres to a higher standard.

                            Nor is it a particularly good thing for the US to have done or still
                            be doing.

                            In Christ,
                            Rd. D-C

                            +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
                            | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
                            | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
                            | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
                            +-------------------------------------------------------------+
                          • Mitin, Stiva
                            ... Imagine that! From the Cheka to KGB to FSU, we have a complete 180 about-face. The prodigy of those that carried out the terror after 1917 wish to restore
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 30, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > Posted by: "Hristofor" hristofor@...
                              > Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:57 am (PDT)
                              >
                              > Readers maybe interested in the following piece called "Monarchist Past &
                              > Future," which was published yesterday in English on Russia Progile.
                              > http://www.russiaprofile.org/politics/2006/9/28/4475.wbp The article sites
                              > Russia-wide polls on the restoration of the monarchy, the differences
                              > between restorationists of the early 90's and today, unofficial support from
                              > the ROC etc. The focal point of the article, however, is an anonymous book
                              > entitled "Russia Project," which apparently is a scathing critique of
                              > democracy, while stating that "There is no greater authority than the power
                              > from God." The book appears in Russian at the following site:
                              > http://projectrussia.ru/ Russian liberals are already outraged by the
                              > text.


                              Imagine that! From the Cheka to KGB to FSU, we have a complete 180
                              about-face. The prodigy of those that carried out the terror after 1917 wish
                              to restore that what was! Nasha Strana will need to get its presses
                              cranking, since a new front has opened. Despite the overwhelming evidence to
                              the contrary, a vocal portion on this list says nothing has changed, the new
                              Russian government is simply the same old commies in fancy Armani and Hermes
                              clothes. If that is the case, how do you explain this? Simply another Trojan
                              horse orchestrated to hoodwink the White Russian diaspora? It is 2006, not
                              1926 [when Soviet agents killed Russians in the West, suspected of fomenting
                              plots against the USSR].

                              Forget the restoration of an absolute monarchy or even King George III [in
                              the US]. I am trying to visualize a true conservative (not neo-con) running
                              on a platform of "There is no greater authority than the power from God" and
                              calling for the restoration of prayer in US public schools and (voluntary)
                              restoration of moral and family values in the arts and entertainment,
                              abortion abolition. This would be a candidate who says that the US was
                              founded on Judaeo-Christian values, by Christians seeking freedom of
                              religion, that Christianity holds the spot of being the primary (but not
                              exclusive religion) of the US; that it is OK to have Christmas pageants once
                              again in schools and not "Holiday" plays where its OK to sing "Dradle,
                              dradle", but not "Silent Night". And if all the recent immigrants who have
                              arrived on our shores after Kennedy relaxed immigration rules from
                              non-European (and non-Christian) lands, well, they can just pack up their
                              bags and go back to those tolerant countries from which they hail. Think
                              that candidate would be in many primaries past Iowa? Would he/she even get
                              to Iowa?

                              Funny how the possible is allowed in "undemocratic" Russia, but in fact is
                              impossible in the "democratic" West.

                              ______________

                              And on the argument that it is impossible for change to have occurred so
                              quickly in Russia, either since the coup of '91 or the Synodal Epistle of
                              '00: changes do occur and they can happen rapidly and radically. Air travel
                              on 9/10 and air travel just a few days later where radically different.
                              Things/words which I never would have dreamed of hearing as a teen in the
                              early 80s are now mentioned on the air like nothing. After 8 yrs of Clinton,
                              the moral thermometer in the US went down a bit. It is true that things may
                              not have changed much in the ghetto of our Diaspora over the decades since
                              the DPs arrived (save for the falling away of many). It is, however, pure
                              fantasy to think that had the revolution not occurred in Russia, that
                              Russian life in 2006 would be a mirror of Russian life in 1906.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • michael nikitin
                              It is not I who alleging this. It was Holy Metr.Philaret, previous First Hierarch of ROCOR who wrote it. Frankly you are calling him a liar, but he lived
                              Message 14 of 18 , Oct 1, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                It is not I who alleging this. It was Holy Metr.Philaret, previous First Hierarch of ROCOR
                                who wrote it. Frankly you are calling him a liar, but he lived through it and quotes from other hierarch's who have lived through it all. Are you suggesting that on a visit one can make good judgement on the MP? We don't even know whether the bishops or clergy are all baptized or ordained and by whom.

                                Michael N

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George Edward Green III <kharaku@...>
                                To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:21:05 PM
                                Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed

                                I just returned from Russia.

                                While there I visited several monasteries far from Moscow, and St
                                Peterburg and what you're alleging is a lie, frankly you know it's a
                                lie, and it's vile you suggest what you do.

                                George

                                On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:29 AM, michael nikitin wrote:

                                > The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a
                                > terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their
                                > eyes all the appearance of church grandeur solemn services, church
                                > order, and such while on the inside there would be total betrayal
                                > of the Spirit of
                                > Christ. Is this not what we see in the Soviet church? Patriarchs,
                                > Metropolitans, all the priestly and monastic orders and at the very
                                > same time, an alliance with the God-haters, that is, a manifest
                                > betrayal of Christ.(Holy Metr.Philaret letter to Abbess Magdalena).
                                >
                                > NOTE:
                                > The letter to Abbess Magdalena and the one to Fr. Victor Potapov can
                                > also be found in the on-line archive of Tserkovnie Novosti / Church
                                > News, edited by Matushka Anastasia Schatiloff (ne Grabbe):
                                > http://www.roacusa.org/documents.html
                                >
                                > Michael N
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                                > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06:49 AM
                                > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed
                                >
                                > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow
                                > <cafeconlechemom@ ...>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >>> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
                                >> writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
                                >> Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
                                >> front of our eyes.
                                >
                                > JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick
                                > what you want to see.
                                >
                                >> The hegumen � who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi" ), with short hair and
                                >> and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
                                >> cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
                                >> he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that
                                >> his
                                >> higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he
                                >> doesn't
                                >> answer right away he will be in big trouble.
                                >
                                > JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.
                                >
                                > Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who
                                > had joined the OCA
                                > visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an
                                > attack similar to the above.
                                >
                                > From what actual information you give in the above account, it
                                > sounds as if someone
                                > visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the
                                > buildings are only
                                > slowly being returned to the monastery.
                                >
                                > The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just
                                > before Khruschev's
                                > renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a
                                > church, with several
                                > priestmonks who conducted services there.
                                >
                                > The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back
                                > to religious use; so far
                                > as I know, the process is still not complete.
                                >
                                > Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra,
                                > including, I believe, a
                                > printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the
                                > extensive cemeteries.
                                >
                                > Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for
                                > the monks may be
                                > teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy,
                                > which is on the
                                > premises.
                                >
                                >> Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in
                                >> Russia
                                >> -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
                                >> material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.
                                >
                                > JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between
                                > the Russian Church
                                > *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow
                                > Patriarchate.
                                >
                                > This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked
                                > the Moscow
                                > Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests,
                                > deacons and others, but to
                                > a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution" .
                                >
                                > But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as
                                > you like to think. Our
                                > church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional
                                > Russian iconographic
                                > style.
                                >
                                > But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at
                                > either Jordanville or
                                > the Synod House is involved.
                                >
                                > Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever
                                > expected the
                                > Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things
                                > for us in the parish.
                                >
                                >> How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                                >> Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
                                >
                                > JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the
                                > building of two
                                > Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for
                                > the Russians.
                                >
                                >> If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
                                >> lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...
                                >
                                > JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the
                                > Saints, and better yet, the
                                > homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention
                                > the Scriptures, is not
                                > looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.
                                >
                                > In Christ
                                > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >





                                Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod


                                Yahoo! Groups Links


















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • V. Boitchenko
                                No, Michael. Metropolitan Philaret is not alleging anything because he is dead. It is you, who claims that Met. Philaret (of blessed memory) is alleging
                                Message 15 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  No, Michael. Metropolitan Philaret is not alleging anything because he is
                                  dead. It is you, who claims that Met. Philaret (of blessed memory) is
                                  alleging something. You are just hiding behind his back.

                                  >We don't even know whether the bishops or clergy are all baptized or
                                  >ordained and by whom.

                                  Michael, who is "we?" What other deceased hierarchs are included in that
                                  "We"?

                                  viatcheslav



                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "michael nikitin" <nikitinmike@...>
                                  To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 8:53 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed


                                  It is not I who alleging this. It was Holy Metr.Philaret, previous First
                                  Hierarch of ROCOR
                                  who wrote it. Frankly you are calling him a liar, but he lived through it
                                  and quotes from other hierarch's who have lived through it all. Are you
                                  suggesting that on a visit one can make good judgement on the MP? We don't
                                  even know whether the bishops or clergy are all baptized or ordained and by
                                  whom.

                                  Michael N

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: George Edward Green III <kharaku@...>
                                  To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:21:05 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed

                                  I just returned from Russia.

                                  While there I visited several monasteries far from Moscow, and St
                                  Peterburg and what you're alleging is a lie, frankly you know it's a
                                  lie, and it's vile you suggest what you do.

                                  George

                                  On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:29 AM, michael nikitin wrote:

                                  > The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a
                                  > terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their
                                  > eyes all the appearance of church grandeur solemn services, church
                                  > order, and such while on the inside there would be total betrayal
                                  > of the Spirit of
                                  > Christ. Is this not what we see in the Soviet church? Patriarchs,
                                  > Metropolitans, all the priestly and monastic orders and at the very
                                  > same time, an alliance with the God-haters, that is, a manifest
                                  > betrayal of Christ.(Holy Metr.Philaret letter to Abbess Magdalena).
                                  >
                                  > NOTE:
                                  > The letter to Abbess Magdalena and the one to Fr. Victor Potapov can
                                  > also be found in the on-line archive of Tserkovnie Novosti / Church
                                  > News, edited by Matushka Anastasia Schatiloff (ne Grabbe):
                                  > http://www.roacusa.org/documents.html
                                  >
                                  > Michael N
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message ----
                                  > From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                                  > To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06:49 AM
                                  > Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed
                                  >
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow
                                  > <cafeconlechemom@ ...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
                                  >> writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
                                  >> Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
                                  >> front of our eyes.
                                  >
                                  > JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick
                                  > what you want to see.
                                  >
                                  >> The hegumen √ who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi" ), with short hair and
                                  >> and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
                                  >> cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
                                  >> he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that
                                  >> his
                                  >> higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he
                                  >> doesn't
                                  >> answer right away he will be in big trouble.
                                  >
                                  > JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.
                                  >
                                  > Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who
                                  > had joined the OCA
                                  > visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an
                                  > attack similar to the above.
                                  >
                                  > From what actual information you give in the above account, it
                                  > sounds as if someone
                                  > visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the
                                  > buildings are only
                                  > slowly being returned to the monastery.
                                  >
                                  > The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just
                                  > before Khruschev's
                                  > renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a
                                  > church, with several
                                  > priestmonks who conducted services there.
                                  >
                                  > The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back
                                  > to religious use; so far
                                  > as I know, the process is still not complete.
                                  >
                                  > Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra,
                                  > including, I believe, a
                                  > printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the
                                  > extensive cemeteries.
                                  >
                                  > Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for
                                  > the monks may be
                                  > teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy,
                                  > which is on the
                                  > premises.
                                  >
                                  >> Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in
                                  >> Russia
                                  >> -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
                                  >> material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.
                                  >
                                  > JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between
                                  > the Russian Church
                                  > *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow
                                  > Patriarchate.
                                  >
                                  > This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked
                                  > the Moscow
                                  > Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests,
                                  > deacons and others, but to
                                  > a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution" .
                                  >
                                  > But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as
                                  > you like to think. Our
                                  > church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional
                                  > Russian iconographic
                                  > style.
                                  >
                                  > But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at
                                  > either Jordanville or
                                  > the Synod House is involved.
                                  >
                                  > Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever
                                  > expected the
                                  > Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things
                                  > for us in the parish.
                                  >
                                  >> How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                                  >> Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
                                  >
                                  > JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the
                                  > building of two
                                  > Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for
                                  > the Russians.
                                  >
                                  >> If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
                                  >> lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...
                                  >
                                  > JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the
                                  > Saints, and better yet, the
                                  > homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention
                                  > the Scriptures, is not
                                  > looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.
                                  >
                                  > In Christ
                                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
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                                • George Edward Green III
                                  I can certainly gauge the sincerity of the numerous Monks I interacted with at the monastaries and know that your allegation that all Monastics in the MP are a
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Oct 2, 2006
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                                    I can certainly gauge the sincerity of the numerous Monks I interacted with at the monastaries and know that your allegation that all Monastics in the MP are a lie and a fascade is a bold and deliberate lie.

                                    Folks working hard to rebuild the churches the communists destroyed in places such as Vladimir, Suzdal, Kazan, and even tiny monasaries like the one I visted in the republic of Mari El.

                                    You lumped all these folks into your vile attack calling one and all God-haters.

                                    There is no comparison between the Communist era agents, who'd have as soon knocked down a church as rebuild one, and these folks who've dedicated themselves fully to trying to repair what the Soviet armies did; one brick at a time, often with little or no support from the upper administrative echelons.

                                    I half wonder when those sewing discord and separatism will produce their own Crown of Monomakh and suggest that there is a 4th Rome. These claims that tiny separatist groups are the 'real church' are no different than the protestant claims that there was no real church until the reformation.

                                    And FYI this is hardly the ONLY time I've visted Russia or monastaries and churches in Russia. Though Russia's continued progress in recovering from the damage the athiests inflicted is no less wonderful to witness on each successive visit. But I'll gladly admit that my conclusions are from what I've seen and done personally and not try to project my views onto the comments of Metropolitans who were speaking on a very different situation, in a very different time.

                                    George

                                    >It is not I who alleging this. It was Holy Metr.Philaret, previous First
                                    >Hierarch of ROCOR
                                    >who wrote it. Frankly you are calling him a liar, but he lived through it
                                    >and quotes from other hierarch's who have lived through it all. Are you
                                    >suggesting that on a visit one can make good judgement on the MP? We don't
                                    >even know whether the bishops or clergy are all baptized or ordained and by
                                    >whom.
                                    >
                                    >Michael N
                                    >
                                    >----- Original Message ----
                                    >From: George Edward Green III <kharaku@...>
                                    >To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 1:21:05 PM
                                    >Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed
                                    >
                                    >I just returned from Russia.
                                    >
                                    >While there I visited several monasteries far from Moscow, and St
                                    >Peterburg and what you're alleging is a lie, frankly you know it's a
                                    >lie, and it's vile you suggest what you do.
                                    >
                                    >George
                                    >
                                    >On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:29 AM, michael nikitin wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> The hierarch Theophan the Recluse in his own day warned that a
                                    >> terrible time was approaching when people would behold before their
                                    >> eyes all the appearance of church grandeur solemn services, church
                                    >> order, and such while on the inside there would be total betrayal
                                    >> of the Spirit of
                                    >> Christ. Is this not what we see in the Soviet church? Patriarchs,
                                    >> Metropolitans, all the priestly and monastic orders and at the very
                                    >> same time, an alliance with the God-haters, that is, a manifest
                                    >> betrayal of Christ.(Holy Metr.Philaret letter to Abbess Magdalena).
                                    >>
                                    >> NOTE:
                                    >> The letter to Abbess Magdalena and the one to Fr. Victor Potapov can
                                    >> also be found in the on-line archive of Tserkovnie Novosti / Church
                                    >> News, edited by Matushka Anastasia Schatiloff (ne Grabbe):
                                    >> http://www.roacusa.org/documents.html
                                    >>
                                    >> Michael N
                                    >>
                                    >> ----- Original Message ----
                                    >> From: Fr. John R. Shaw <vrevjrs@...>
                                    >> To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    >> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 8:06:49 AM
                                    >> Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: So much has changed
                                    >>
                                    >> --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, Melissa Bushunow
                                    >> <cafeconlechemom@ ...>
                                    >> wrote:
                                    >>
                                    >>>> We don't have to go around looking for "what they can find...in the
                                    >>> writings of long-deceased ROCOR clergy, that they can use against the
                                    >>> Patriarchal Church," as Fr. John Shaw claims. It is right there in
                                    >>> front of our eyes.
                                    >>
                                    >> JRS: It is indeed in front of your eyes, but it seems you only pick
                                    >> what you want to see.
                                    >>
                                    >>> The hegumen ? who was "powdered" ("napudrenyi" ), with short hair and
                                    >>> and a short, neatly trimmed beard -- continually grabbed his ringing
                                    >>> cellphone. When one of visitors commented that it was the first time
                                    >>> he had ever seen a monk with a cellphone, the hegumen replied that
                                    >>> his
                                    >>> higher-ups want to be able to reach him at all times, and if he
                                    >>> doesn't
                                    >>> answer right away he will be in big trouble.
                                    >>
                                    >> JRS: Whoever wrote "napudreny" makes his bias obvious.
                                    >>
                                    >> Years and years ago, one of the Russian clergy from Australia who
                                    >> had joined the OCA
                                    >> visited Vl. Nikon's ROCOR cathedral in the Bronx, and wrote an
                                    >> attack similar to the above.
                                    >>
                                    >> From what actual information you give in the above account, it
                                    >> sounds as if someone
                                    >> visited the St. Alexander Nevsky Lavra in St. Petersburg, where the
                                    >> buildings are only
                                    >> slowly being returned to the monastery.
                                    >>
                                    >> The main monastery church had been given back to the faithful just
                                    >> before Khruschev's
                                    >> renewed persecutions, but in reality there was no monastery: only a
                                    >> church, with several
                                    >> priestmonks who conducted services there.
                                    >>
                                    >> The restored monastery buildings are only slowly being given back
                                    >> to religious use; so far
                                    >> as I know, the process is still not complete.
                                    >>
                                    >> Before the revolution, there were various workshops in the Lavra,
                                    >> including, I believe, a
                                    >> printery, an icon studio, gardens, and probably care of the
                                    >> extensive cemeteries.
                                    >>
                                    >> Until the monastery is "put back together", the main activity for
                                    >> the monks may be
                                    >> teaching in the St. Petersburg seminary and theological academy,
                                    >> which is on the
                                    >> premises.
                                    >>
                                    >>> Then there is, by God's mercy, the true rebirth of Orthodoxy in
                                    >>> Russia
                                    >>> -- at which we rejoice and which we support with our prayers and
                                    >>> material help -- which is occurring, despite the MP.
                                    >>
                                    >> JRS: Here you have an interesting comment: you distinguish between
                                    >> the Russian Church
                                    >> *as a whole*, and the central administration of the Moscow
                                    >> Patriarchate.
                                    >>
                                    >> This is just what our hierarchs in the past did: when they rebuked
                                    >> the Moscow
                                    >> Patriarchate, they were referring, not to all the bishops, priests,
                                    >> deacons and others, but to
                                    >> a few people in Moscow who were claiming there was "no persecution" .
                                    >>
                                    >> But today, I doubt that the central administration is as corrupt as
                                    >> you like to think. Our
                                    >> church in Milwaukee has been installing new icons in traditional
                                    >> Russian iconographic
                                    >> style.
                                    >>
                                    >> But the icons are not from Jordanville or from Synod, and nobody at
                                    >> either Jordanville or
                                    >> the Synod House is involved.
                                    >>
                                    >> Is that a rebuke to Jordanville, or to ROCOR? Hardly. Nobody ever
                                    >> expected the
                                    >> Metropolitan or the Synod or the Diocese to come in and do things
                                    >> for us in the parish.
                                    >>
                                    >>> How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                                    >>> Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.
                                    >>
                                    >> JRS: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the
                                    >> building of two
                                    >> Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for
                                    >> the Russians.
                                    >>
                                    >>> If we only moved forward and didn't look backward, didn't read the
                                    >>> lives of the Saints and the New Martyrs and their writings...
                                    >>
                                    >> JRS: I think you know full well that reading the lives of the
                                    >> Saints, and better yet, the
                                    >> homilies of the Church Fathers and the Catechism, not to mention
                                    >> the Scriptures, is not
                                    >> looking backward at all, but looking forward: to the life to come.
                                    >>
                                    >> In Christ
                                    >> Fr. John R. Shaw
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >>
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                                  • Melissa Bushunow
                                    ... ... Fr. John R. Shaw: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who supported the building of two Orthodox churches in Havana: one
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 7, 2006
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                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow
                                      <cafeconlechemom@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > How has the MP really moved forward? The Patriarch congratulates
                                      > Communist heads of countries which actively persecute Christians.

                                      Fr. John R. Shaw: Not correct. He congratulated Fidel Castro, who
                                      supported the building of two
                                      Orthodox churches in Havana: one for the Greeks, and another for the
                                      Russians.


                                      And what about the run-of-the-mill Cubans? Are they permitted to go to
                                      these churches?

                                      �China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam [are] still considered to
                                      have communist regimes in power. While most experts agree that
                                      communism as an ideology is all but dead, the power structures (my bold
                                      face, MB) in these countries have endured. What�s more, they do not
                                      tolerate the growth of any group perceived as a threat to total
                                      control. North Korea is probably the most restricted nation in the
                                      world. Confessing to being a Christian -- or even suspected of being
                                      one -- will result in imprisonment or death.�
                                      http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
                                      page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224

                                      For today, I�ll restrict discussion to Cuba. More on the MP and
                                      Vietenam and North Korea later.

                                      The state of religion in Cuba, as described by the 2006 International
                                      Religious Freedom Report released by the the US Bureau of Democracy,
                                      Human Rights, and Labor, in part reads:

                                      �There was no change in the status of respect for religious freedom
                                      during the period covered by this report. Overall human rights
                                      conditions remained poor. Some religious figures who criticized the
                                      Government's totalitarian system in sermons were subjected to intense
                                      harassment. In general, unregistered religious groups continued to
                                      experience varying degrees of official interference, harassment, and
                                      repression. The Government maintained its policy of permitting
                                      apolitical religious activity to take place in government-approved
                                      sites. However, state security forces continued to subject to
                                      surveillance citizens worshipping in officially sanctioned churches,
                                      and the Government's continued its efforts to maintain a strong degree
                                      of control over religion.�

                                      http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71456.htm

                                      People are not allowed to worship freely in Cuba and are actively
                                      persecuted for trying. See, for example:

                                      http://www.payolibre.addr.com/PRESO-%20Ricardo%20Santiago%20Medina.htm

                                      http://www.cswusa.com/Reports%20Pages/Reports-Cuba.htm

                                      http://www.christianpersecution.info/news/leading-cuban-christian-
                                      dissident-antunez-beaten-in-prison/

                                      www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
                                      page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224



                                      The Orthodox churches in Havana, be they Greek or Russian, are just so
                                      many more tourist dollars/rubles/euros in Castro's pocket. That is
                                      exactly how churches "worked" in the Soviet Union (and there still are
                                      those functioning this way in way in the RF), so it's no surprise that
                                      Patriarch Alexei II congratulated Castro on catching on to this great
                                      money-making scheme. With God everything is possible, but I don't
                                      think we (with the exception of Fr. John) are anywhere near to
                                      glorifying Fidel as the enlightener of Cuba.

                                      ROCORites are not the only ones who think this. Orthodox priest, Rev.
                                      Johannes L. Jacobse identified the Soviet playbook: �When Ecumenical
                                      Patriarch Bartholomew visited Cuba in late January [2004], he followed
                                      a script written in the 1970s. We might call this the Fidel Castro
                                      scenario: Invite a prominent Church leader to take part in a public
                                      show of religious tolerance in order to mask the fundamentally
                                      anti-religious policies of the Cuban dictator's regime. When the
                                      Patriarch consecrated an Orthodox Church that closed when Communism was
                                      imposed on Cuba, he barely whispered a word about Castro's human right
                                      abuses.� See:

                                      http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles4/JacobseCubaVisit.php
                                      Patriarch Bartholomew's Visit to Cuba: A Missed Opportunity for Human
                                      Rights


                                      This is not a question of MP vs. EP. This is the MP showing its
                                      communist, sergianist colors by cozying up with Castro to build
                                      churches for show. Metropolitan Kirill says as much:

                                      �The church will constitute �a monument to Cuban-Russian friendship,�
                                      said Metropolitan Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church's
                                      foreign relations department. He traveled to Cuba from Moscow for the
                                      consecration. The church will also pay homage to the thousands of
                                      Russian workers, soldiers and technicians who cooperated with communist
                                      Cuba for three �glorious� decades before the fall of the Soviet Union,
                                      he said. �The past can reunite with the present, with the result being
                                      a common future,� Metropolitan Kirill said. �Russia will again be a
                                      great power ... that supports and defends its friends.��
                                      http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=7434&sec=15&cont=6

                                      This intertwining of atheistic state and church is the sergianism with
                                      which the MP lives and breathes, and which it is spreading along with
                                      its �church planting� throughout the world.

                                      Churches are to built to give glory to God and His saints. They are not
                                      built to pay homage to people who � wittingly or unwittingly � were
                                      enlisted by the Soviet Union/RF with its partner the MP and Communist
                                      Cuba to enslave the Cubans. Nor can the new Orthodox churches being
                                      built there be regarded as anything but churches of the antichrist for
                                      the further enslavement of the Cubans until the Cuban government and
                                      all those who morally, financially, and spiritually support it repent
                                      -- publically, in word and deed. The Moscow Patriarchate should be
                                      first in line.


                                      Melissa Bushunow

















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                      ... JRS: Thus far, no one has even claimed that people were not being admitted to these churches. ... JRS: That statement is obviously false. Saudi Arabia, not
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Oct 8, 2006
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                                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Melissa Bushunow <cafeconlechemom@...>
                                        wrote:

                                        > And what about the run-of-the-mill Cubans? Are they permitted to go to
                                        > these churches?

                                        JRS: Thus far, no one has even claimed that people were not being admitted to these
                                        churches.

                                        > North Korea is probably the most restricted nation in the
                                        > world. Confessing to being a Christian -- or even suspected of being
                                        > one -- will result in imprisonment or death."
                                        > http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?
                                        > page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=224

                                        JRS: That statement is obviously false.

                                        Saudi Arabia, not North Korea, is the "most restricted nation in the world", and it is in
                                        Saudi Arabia that there is a death penalty for Christian worship, with special Islamic
                                        religious police.

                                        > "Overall human rights
                                        > conditions remained poor. Some religious figures who criticized the
                                        > Government's totalitarian system in sermons were subjected to intense
                                        > harassment. In general, unregistered religious groups continued to
                                        > experience varying degrees of official interference, harassment, and
                                        > repression. The Government maintained its policy of permitting
                                        > apolitical religious activity to take place in government-approved
                                        > sites.

                                        JRS: First of all, the same thing could have been said of Russia before the revolution; let
                                        alone of the Byzantine Empire, where St. John Chrysostom was exiled for criticizing the
                                        empress.

                                        It could also be said of many non-communist Latin American dictatorships, or of Franco's
                                        Spain.

                                        However, the "lack of democracy" is not a canonical, or even a religious, issue. The
                                        Orthodox Church has existed and functioned throughout its history under "authoritarian
                                        regimes".

                                        In Christ
                                        Fr. John R. Shaw
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