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  • Mike Woodson
    Dear Aleksandr, ... True. ... And yet, the above view of Khomiakov puts a few billion people in the same mold, and substitutes God s insights into the heart
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 27, 2006
      Dear Aleksandr,

      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Aleksandr Andreev
      <aleksandr.andreev@...> wrote:
      >
      > Mr. Woodson writes:
      > "Don't worry Peter, Viatch et al. see protestants everywhere because
      > they look through Roman eyes at the world, peering out from the
      > familiar lenses of the Moscow Patriarchate."

      True.

      >
      > On this issue, I side with A. S. Khomiakov, who held that Roman
      > Catholicism and Protestantism, from the standpoint of Orthodoxy, are
      > really one and the same. Both constitute a replacement of the catholic
      > infallibility of the Church with the infallibility of an individual,
      > either the Pope of Rome or the Protestant with his Bible.

      And yet, the above view of Khomiakov puts a few billion people in the
      same mold, and substitutes God's insights into the heart with a
      convenient differentiating mode of thought that borders on
      self-justification and self-highlighting. By wishing to be higher
      than the protestants and Catholics, one becomes both spiritually,
      while excluding oneself dogmatically and theoretically. That's the
      point of joining in an argument dialogue on the matter -- using
      polemics much as theologians employed by Rome did to prove Rome correct.

      The protestant phenomenon in 15th century Europe and following reacted
      to the establishment of not only "infallibility" on moral issues, but
      worse, "Supremacy" and the Magisterium in Rome. Dominance and
      Legalism ruled Rome and this led to violence and the mark of Cain by
      order of the dark age Popes, followed by dark "giving over" to
      unspeakable sins. The whole mess begins with the grasp for more and
      more power and influence, and with the desire to maintain control
      rather than defend freedom. Where that grasping exists, you can bet
      that trouble is close behind.


      > In this sense, I do not think it's fair to accuse "Viatch et al.", to
      > whomever that reference was intended to apply, of "look[ing] through
      > Roman eyes at the world." After all, "Viatch et al." are simply siding
      > with the catholic decision of the Church, expressed by her first in a
      > council of her members in San Francisco, then by her bishops in New
      York.

      . . . who are as we speak awakening to the wool pulled over their eyes
      by the MP during this process.

      If the events of San Francisco were "simple" there would not be
      delegates who are crying foul that their votes were not correctly
      represented. And, if the decision were Catholic, we wouldn't be
      having this conversation about a very real rift in belief about the
      wisdom of lifting the suspension on communion. Unlike the serial
      mischaracterizations made here by some, all that many people opposed
      ask is that the ROCA *wait* a while until the MP leadership has
      changed over. Patience is a virtue in situations like this that call
      for it.

      The entire Church is not the ROCA nor even the Russian Orthodox
      Church, and to speak of Catholicicity is premature within one
      "jursidiction." The Creed clearly contemplates an Orthodox Church
      well beyond Russia, and the Holy Scripture does not require that
      ethnicity be associated with it, rather it eschews it.

      >
      > On the other hand, without attaching epithets to anyone, I think we can
      > conclude that certain individuals on this list are placing their own
      > personal infallibility over the catholic decision of the Church.

      See above on that one, oh spokeman for the Catholic.

      >
      > Then, Mr. Woodson writes:
      > "The MP's worldwide political competition with Rome is in full swing,
      > ... [the MP] winning pride of place as Rome faces mounting problems of
      > influence worldwide."

      True.

      >
      > I refer Mssrs. Woodson at al. to the following text posted on the MP's
      > website, and ask: who, in this instance, is having "Roman pretensions"
      > and who is trying to counteract them?
      >
      > http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/145204.html

      Pretensions? Counteract? Neither. See "political competition" above.

      >
      > +Aleks
      >
      > ----------
      > Aleksandr Andreev
      > Duke University
      > aleksandr.andreev@...
      > http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/

      Michael
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