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Re: Magerovsky speech at Secretary of the ROCA SYNOD 10 year "chestvovanie"

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally. ... JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts. I myself don t usually bother to
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

      > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book.

      JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally.

      > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander
      >and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe
      >anything that you just write without backing it up.

      JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts.

      I myself don't usually bother to do that, because the research takes too much time.

      And those (usually HOCNA members) who attack ROCOR, only ignore or reject the
      evidence, no matter how convincing it is.

      BTW your style and comments are practically identical with those of one "Peter Andreev".

      I also notice little peculiarities you both share, such as not spacing after "Fr.", if the priest
      referred to is a ROCOR apologist.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
      Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb Book New Martyrs of
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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        Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the
        Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb
        Book "New Martyrs of Russia" (Protopresbyter Michael Polsky, Noviye
        Mucheniki Rossijskiye, Jordanville, 1957), the most definitive book
        at that time, on the subject of Soviet persecution of the faithful,
        clergy laity and of the destruction and desecration of Church
        property. He came from the Soviet Union and he died in San
        Francisco. Except for a few minor discrepancies his accounts are
        absolutely unquestioned and the research in Russia now on the fate
        of the New Martyrs has Father Michael to thank for being one of the
        trail blazers. Platina printed a book in English which was
        essentially a translation of Father Michael's work.
        In Russia one of the criteria for supporting the canonization
        (including in the official lists) of a particular Martyr is to
        verify that during the interrogation and any attempt at "saving
        oneself" the tortured and murdered person did not BETRAY others!
        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




        -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
        <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote
        what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery
        published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they
        did not protest against anything in the book.
        >
        > The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael
        Polsky. A
        > different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's
        book is
        > historical...he was there.
        >
        > Fr. John received his information from the MP?
        > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but
        since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit
        in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just
        write without backing it up.
        >
        > Michael N
        >
        >
        > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
        <nikitinmike@> wrote:
        >
        > > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
        >
        > JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who
        have been "quick to judge"
        > ROCOR.
        >
        > > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do
        Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
        > >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in
        1952, these facts are
        > >stated.
        >
        > JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about
        in the intervening 54
        > years have been enormous.
        >
        > 2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.
        >
        > When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of
        the people listed as having
        > died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije",
        had in fact survived, after
        > all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after
        copies of it were
        > smuggled into the Soviet Union.
        >
        > In Christ
        > Fr. John R. Shaw
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ( KGB always KGB or so he himself has said!
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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          Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin
          Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB always KGB" or so
          he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador John Herbst (State
          Department) are three government agents who have attempted to
          influence the Church Abroad to interests other than purely Church
          related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is ...after decades of
          State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet Russia, here in the free
          Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH. The Bishops of our
          Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to guide the faithful as
          they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and correct, these
          laymen certainly have their right to express their personal opinions
          but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to intimidate or RULE OVER
          THE CHURCH.
          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        • Michael Coleman
          Father bless! Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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            Father bless!

            Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
            midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
            these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?

            Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.

            Bless!

            Michael Coleman
            Knoxville, TN

            --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:

            > Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr.
            > Konstantin
            > Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB
            > always KGB" or so
            > he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador
            > John Herbst (State
            > Department) are three government agents who have
            > attempted to
            > influence the Church Abroad to interests other than
            > purely Church
            > related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is
            > ...after decades of
            > State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet
            > Russia, here in the free
            > Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH.
            > The Bishops of our
            > Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to
            > guide the faithful as
            > they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and
            > correct, these
            > laymen certainly have their right to express their
            > personal opinions
            > but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to
            > intimidate or RULE OVER
            > THE CHURCH.
            > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
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          • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            No I was not. Rev. S. Pavlenko
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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              No I was not.
              Rev. S. Pavlenko


              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
              <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
              >
              > Father bless!
              >
              > Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
              > midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
              > these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
              >
              > Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.
              >
              > Bless!
              >
              > Michael Coleman
              > Knoxville, TN
            • Anna Voellmecke
              ... Which? You were asked an or question, so yes and no are not possible. answers. Anna V.
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                >No I was not.

                Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                possible. answers.

                Anna V.
              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being sarcastic. ... Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who raised him an
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                  Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                  sarcastic.
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                  raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                  inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                  remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                  proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                  the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                  and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                  reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                  grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                  glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                  on and on....

                  Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                  tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                  Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                  the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                  Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                  of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                  Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                  supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                  Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                  Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                  Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                  Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                  Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                  in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                  the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                  Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                  Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                  Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                  Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                  Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                  > >No I was not.
                  >
                  > Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                  > possible. answers.
                  >
                  > Anna V.
                  >
                • Mike Woodson
                  Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan, Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many perceptions. We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 8, 2006
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                    Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan,

                    Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many
                    perceptions.

                    We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early 1990s before glasnost
                    froze to death, Preobrazhensky wrote about how the FSB, having just
                    changed its letters from KGB, was ill-adapted to defending Russia
                    against Chechen guerillas and terrorists. His point was that the FSB
                    was configured to keep the inmates in, so to speak, and not to defend
                    Russia against militants.

                    When the Beslan massacre happened, Preobrazhensky's concerns proved
                    true, being concerns for Russian lives, not his own personal
                    opportunities. On his perceptions of the MP officials, I think that he
                    is right in the main. Bearing in mind the rare exception to the
                    general rule, it is unlikely that "all" MP clergy are dedicated
                    opportunists, however, you don't need "all" of them to be so long as
                    most of them used their cover as a path to new power in Russia rooted
                    in their former KGB status and training. Such training is
                    recognizable in their actions.

                    I see Preobrazhensky opposing those actions and words -- which puts
                    him in the repentant category. "Once KGB, always KGB" I suspect
                    refers to the training and its habits, and also, his ability to
                    recognize former colleagues and their modes of operation ( even in the
                    MP ).

                    As for your assertions about the United States, which has been a safe
                    harbor for a significant Russian diaspora for a long time now, we
                    differ a great deal, and I have to suppress the temptation of anger at
                    your provocation against a country I love and am loyal and dedicated
                    to as much as you are to your own homeland.

                    As you benefit from this country that has had freedom of belief and
                    religious practice during its entire existence, you criticize it with
                    a spirit I can only recognize as irrational anger stoked by
                    propaganda. Who does the propaganda benefit? The RF, not the Church.
                    That's how to judge its source.

                    I'd rather have an Orange Revolution Father, than the toxic, green
                    glowing one dumped on Europe by the politicians to which you and your
                    like-minded have just joined the ROCOR. Manifest destiny is an
                    outdated, obsolete doctrine of the 18th-19th centuries for the US.
                    However, you have identified it as a modern Russian governing right to
                    Ukraine. I disagree that any nation has a right to rule another
                    unless God says it is so in no uncertain terms.

                    respectfully,
                    Michael

                    More specific political responses below:


                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                    <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                    > Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                    > sarcastic.
                    > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                    > raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                    > inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                    > remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                    > proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                    > the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                    > and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                    > reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                    > grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                    > glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                    > on and on....

                    It's the headwaters of the renewal that determines the purity of the
                    water flowing downstream in an autocracy, Father Stefan. Perhaps God
                    will change out the MP leadership his own Way, and all will be
                    redeemed. I certainly hope so. It's behavior doesn't support this
                    hope so far. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump -- churches,
                    publications and so on. The current RF pragmatists have learned that
                    they need to use the Church, not persecute it, to stay in power over
                    their fellow Russians. However, using the Church is as bad or worse
                    than overtly attacking it, because it will hurt the faith of many who
                    cease to believe as the MP follows the course of playing Church to
                    attain political goals. May they repent of their course, or may God
                    turn the tables on them to the benefit of the Russian flock (and
                    everyone else related).

                    >
                    > Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                    > tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                    > Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                    > the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                    > Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                    > of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                    > Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                    > supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                    > Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                    People in the US don't fear Russians, but many fear the recent
                    historical tendency toward severe abuse of power in Russian governing
                    habits, which have some long and dreary precedents of abuse over the
                    past 200 years. Hundreds of millions dead and imprisoned by their
                    own? Gulags? That is a serious precedent for distrust of Russian use
                    of authority. The USA has some problems and has done some wrongs, but
                    nothing on that magnitude. It's safeguards and culture are optimistic
                    toward good will in the main. I hope that doesn't change as other
                    powers seek to provoke her into wars abroad. May God look out for us
                    again and help us find our service to Him.

                    >
                    > Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                    > Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                    > Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                    > Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                    > in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                    > the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                    > Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                    > Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                    > Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                    > Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                    > Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                    > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                    Ukraine is not owned by Russia any more than it is owned by anyone else.

                    Georgia invited help with putting down terrorist passage through the
                    Pankisi Gorge at its border, and the US gave it help to dry up
                    supplies to terrorists and militants also fighting US forces in
                    Afghanistan and nearby bases, then retreating into that area. China
                    has also wanted the area cleared, to staunch weapon supply to its
                    Uigher population. That you would turn all of this into an
                    anti-Russian effort is way off. Georgia is Orthodox Christian itself
                    and must deal with Muslim militants. It wasn't getting any help from
                    the Russia of "manifest destiny" either.
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