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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Magerovsky speech at Secretary of the ROCA SYNOD 10 year "chestvovanie"

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  • michael nikitin
    I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev s historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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      I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they did not protest against anything in the book.

      The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael Polsky. A
      different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's book is
      historical...he was there.

      Fr. John received his information from the MP?
      You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just write without backing it up.

      Michael N


      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

      > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

      JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
      ROCOR.

      > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
      >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
      >stated.

      JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
      years have been enormous.

      2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

      When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
      died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
      all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
      smuggled into the Soviet Union.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw






      ---------------------------------
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally. ... JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts. I myself don t usually bother to
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

        > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book.

        JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally.

        > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander
        >and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe
        >anything that you just write without backing it up.

        JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts.

        I myself don't usually bother to do that, because the research takes too much time.

        And those (usually HOCNA members) who attack ROCOR, only ignore or reject the
        evidence, no matter how convincing it is.

        BTW your style and comments are practically identical with those of one "Peter Andreev".

        I also notice little peculiarities you both share, such as not spacing after "Fr.", if the priest
        referred to is a ROCOR apologist.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
        Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb Book New Martyrs of
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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          Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the
          Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb
          Book "New Martyrs of Russia" (Protopresbyter Michael Polsky, Noviye
          Mucheniki Rossijskiye, Jordanville, 1957), the most definitive book
          at that time, on the subject of Soviet persecution of the faithful,
          clergy laity and of the destruction and desecration of Church
          property. He came from the Soviet Union and he died in San
          Francisco. Except for a few minor discrepancies his accounts are
          absolutely unquestioned and the research in Russia now on the fate
          of the New Martyrs has Father Michael to thank for being one of the
          trail blazers. Platina printed a book in English which was
          essentially a translation of Father Michael's work.
          In Russia one of the criteria for supporting the canonization
          (including in the official lists) of a particular Martyr is to
          verify that during the interrogation and any attempt at "saving
          oneself" the tortured and murdered person did not BETRAY others!
          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




          -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
          <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote
          what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery
          published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they
          did not protest against anything in the book.
          >
          > The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael
          Polsky. A
          > different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's
          book is
          > historical...he was there.
          >
          > Fr. John received his information from the MP?
          > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but
          since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit
          in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just
          write without backing it up.
          >
          > Michael N
          >
          >
          > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
          <nikitinmike@> wrote:
          >
          > > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
          >
          > JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who
          have been "quick to judge"
          > ROCOR.
          >
          > > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do
          Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
          > >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in
          1952, these facts are
          > >stated.
          >
          > JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about
          in the intervening 54
          > years have been enormous.
          >
          > 2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.
          >
          > When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of
          the people listed as having
          > died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije",
          had in fact survived, after
          > all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after
          copies of it were
          > smuggled into the Soviet Union.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ( KGB always KGB or so he himself has said!
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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            Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin
            Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB always KGB" or so
            he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador John Herbst (State
            Department) are three government agents who have attempted to
            influence the Church Abroad to interests other than purely Church
            related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is ...after decades of
            State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet Russia, here in the free
            Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH. The Bishops of our
            Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to guide the faithful as
            they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and correct, these
            laymen certainly have their right to express their personal opinions
            but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to intimidate or RULE OVER
            THE CHURCH.
            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          • Michael Coleman
            Father bless! Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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              Father bless!

              Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
              midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
              these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?

              Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.

              Bless!

              Michael Coleman
              Knoxville, TN

              --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
              <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:

              > Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr.
              > Konstantin
              > Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB
              > always KGB" or so
              > he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador
              > John Herbst (State
              > Department) are three government agents who have
              > attempted to
              > influence the Church Abroad to interests other than
              > purely Church
              > related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is
              > ...after decades of
              > State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet
              > Russia, here in the free
              > Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH.
              > The Bishops of our
              > Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to
              > guide the faithful as
              > they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and
              > correct, these
              > laymen certainly have their right to express their
              > personal opinions
              > but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to
              > intimidate or RULE OVER
              > THE CHURCH.
              > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


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            • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
              No I was not. Rev. S. Pavlenko
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                No I was not.
                Rev. S. Pavlenko


                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
                <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
                >
                > Father bless!
                >
                > Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                > midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                > these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                >
                > Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.
                >
                > Bless!
                >
                > Michael Coleman
                > Knoxville, TN
              • Anna Voellmecke
                ... Which? You were asked an or question, so yes and no are not possible. answers. Anna V.
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                  At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                  >No I was not.

                  Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                  possible. answers.

                  Anna V.
                • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being sarcastic. ... Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who raised him an
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                    Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                    sarcastic.
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                    raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                    inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                    remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                    proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                    the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                    and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                    reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                    grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                    glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                    on and on....

                    Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                    tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                    Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                    the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                    Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                    of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                    Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                    supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                    Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                    Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                    Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                    Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                    Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                    in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                    the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                    Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                    Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                    Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                    Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                    Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                    Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                    > >No I was not.
                    >
                    > Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                    > possible. answers.
                    >
                    > Anna V.
                    >
                  • Mike Woodson
                    Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan, Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many perceptions. We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 8, 2006
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                      Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan,

                      Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many
                      perceptions.

                      We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early 1990s before glasnost
                      froze to death, Preobrazhensky wrote about how the FSB, having just
                      changed its letters from KGB, was ill-adapted to defending Russia
                      against Chechen guerillas and terrorists. His point was that the FSB
                      was configured to keep the inmates in, so to speak, and not to defend
                      Russia against militants.

                      When the Beslan massacre happened, Preobrazhensky's concerns proved
                      true, being concerns for Russian lives, not his own personal
                      opportunities. On his perceptions of the MP officials, I think that he
                      is right in the main. Bearing in mind the rare exception to the
                      general rule, it is unlikely that "all" MP clergy are dedicated
                      opportunists, however, you don't need "all" of them to be so long as
                      most of them used their cover as a path to new power in Russia rooted
                      in their former KGB status and training. Such training is
                      recognizable in their actions.

                      I see Preobrazhensky opposing those actions and words -- which puts
                      him in the repentant category. "Once KGB, always KGB" I suspect
                      refers to the training and its habits, and also, his ability to
                      recognize former colleagues and their modes of operation ( even in the
                      MP ).

                      As for your assertions about the United States, which has been a safe
                      harbor for a significant Russian diaspora for a long time now, we
                      differ a great deal, and I have to suppress the temptation of anger at
                      your provocation against a country I love and am loyal and dedicated
                      to as much as you are to your own homeland.

                      As you benefit from this country that has had freedom of belief and
                      religious practice during its entire existence, you criticize it with
                      a spirit I can only recognize as irrational anger stoked by
                      propaganda. Who does the propaganda benefit? The RF, not the Church.
                      That's how to judge its source.

                      I'd rather have an Orange Revolution Father, than the toxic, green
                      glowing one dumped on Europe by the politicians to which you and your
                      like-minded have just joined the ROCOR. Manifest destiny is an
                      outdated, obsolete doctrine of the 18th-19th centuries for the US.
                      However, you have identified it as a modern Russian governing right to
                      Ukraine. I disagree that any nation has a right to rule another
                      unless God says it is so in no uncertain terms.

                      respectfully,
                      Michael

                      More specific political responses below:


                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                      <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                      > Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                      > sarcastic.
                      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                      > raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                      > inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                      > remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                      > proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                      > the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                      > and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                      > reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                      > grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                      > glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                      > on and on....

                      It's the headwaters of the renewal that determines the purity of the
                      water flowing downstream in an autocracy, Father Stefan. Perhaps God
                      will change out the MP leadership his own Way, and all will be
                      redeemed. I certainly hope so. It's behavior doesn't support this
                      hope so far. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump -- churches,
                      publications and so on. The current RF pragmatists have learned that
                      they need to use the Church, not persecute it, to stay in power over
                      their fellow Russians. However, using the Church is as bad or worse
                      than overtly attacking it, because it will hurt the faith of many who
                      cease to believe as the MP follows the course of playing Church to
                      attain political goals. May they repent of their course, or may God
                      turn the tables on them to the benefit of the Russian flock (and
                      everyone else related).

                      >
                      > Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                      > tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                      > Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                      > the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                      > Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                      > of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                      > Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                      > supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                      > Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                      People in the US don't fear Russians, but many fear the recent
                      historical tendency toward severe abuse of power in Russian governing
                      habits, which have some long and dreary precedents of abuse over the
                      past 200 years. Hundreds of millions dead and imprisoned by their
                      own? Gulags? That is a serious precedent for distrust of Russian use
                      of authority. The USA has some problems and has done some wrongs, but
                      nothing on that magnitude. It's safeguards and culture are optimistic
                      toward good will in the main. I hope that doesn't change as other
                      powers seek to provoke her into wars abroad. May God look out for us
                      again and help us find our service to Him.

                      >
                      > Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                      > Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                      > Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                      > Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                      > in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                      > the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                      > Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                      > Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                      > Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                      > Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                      > Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                      Ukraine is not owned by Russia any more than it is owned by anyone else.

                      Georgia invited help with putting down terrorist passage through the
                      Pankisi Gorge at its border, and the US gave it help to dry up
                      supplies to terrorists and militants also fighting US forces in
                      Afghanistan and nearby bases, then retreating into that area. China
                      has also wanted the area cleared, to staunch weapon supply to its
                      Uigher population. That you would turn all of this into an
                      anti-Russian effort is way off. Georgia is Orthodox Christian itself
                      and must deal with Muslim militants. It wasn't getting any help from
                      the Russia of "manifest destiny" either.
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