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Re: Magerovsky speech at Secretary of the ROCA SYNOD 10 year "chestvovanie"

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: Actually, it s the other way around: they are the ones who have been quick to judge ROCOR. ... JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

      > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

      JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
      ROCOR.

      > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
      >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
      >stated.

      JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
      years have been enormous.

      2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

      When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
      died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
      all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
      smuggled into the Soviet Union.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • michael nikitin
      I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev s historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
        I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they did not protest against anything in the book.

        The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael Polsky. A
        different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's book is
        historical...he was there.

        Fr. John received his information from the MP?
        You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just write without backing it up.

        Michael N


        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

        > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

        JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
        ROCOR.

        > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
        >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
        >stated.

        JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
        years have been enormous.

        2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

        When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
        died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
        all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
        smuggled into the Soviet Union.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw






        ---------------------------------
        Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally. ... JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts. I myself don t usually bother to
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

          > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book.

          JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally.

          > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander
          >and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe
          >anything that you just write without backing it up.

          JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts.

          I myself don't usually bother to do that, because the research takes too much time.

          And those (usually HOCNA members) who attack ROCOR, only ignore or reject the
          evidence, no matter how convincing it is.

          BTW your style and comments are practically identical with those of one "Peter Andreev".

          I also notice little peculiarities you both share, such as not spacing after "Fr.", if the priest
          referred to is a ROCOR apologist.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
          Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb Book New Martyrs of
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
            Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the
            Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb
            Book "New Martyrs of Russia" (Protopresbyter Michael Polsky, Noviye
            Mucheniki Rossijskiye, Jordanville, 1957), the most definitive book
            at that time, on the subject of Soviet persecution of the faithful,
            clergy laity and of the destruction and desecration of Church
            property. He came from the Soviet Union and he died in San
            Francisco. Except for a few minor discrepancies his accounts are
            absolutely unquestioned and the research in Russia now on the fate
            of the New Martyrs has Father Michael to thank for being one of the
            trail blazers. Platina printed a book in English which was
            essentially a translation of Father Michael's work.
            In Russia one of the criteria for supporting the canonization
            (including in the official lists) of a particular Martyr is to
            verify that during the interrogation and any attempt at "saving
            oneself" the tortured and murdered person did not BETRAY others!
            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




            -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
            <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote
            what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery
            published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they
            did not protest against anything in the book.
            >
            > The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael
            Polsky. A
            > different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's
            book is
            > historical...he was there.
            >
            > Fr. John received his information from the MP?
            > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but
            since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit
            in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just
            write without backing it up.
            >
            > Michael N
            >
            >
            > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
            <nikitinmike@> wrote:
            >
            > > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
            >
            > JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who
            have been "quick to judge"
            > ROCOR.
            >
            > > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do
            Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
            > >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in
            1952, these facts are
            > >stated.
            >
            > JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about
            in the intervening 54
            > years have been enormous.
            >
            > 2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.
            >
            > When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of
            the people listed as having
            > died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije",
            had in fact survived, after
            > all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after
            copies of it were
            > smuggled into the Soviet Union.
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ( KGB always KGB or so he himself has said!
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
              Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin
              Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB always KGB" or so
              he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador John Herbst (State
              Department) are three government agents who have attempted to
              influence the Church Abroad to interests other than purely Church
              related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is ...after decades of
              State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet Russia, here in the free
              Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH. The Bishops of our
              Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to guide the faithful as
              they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and correct, these
              laymen certainly have their right to express their personal opinions
              but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to intimidate or RULE OVER
              THE CHURCH.
              Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
            • Michael Coleman
              Father bless! Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                Father bless!

                Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?

                Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.

                Bless!

                Michael Coleman
                Knoxville, TN

                --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:

                > Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr.
                > Konstantin
                > Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB
                > always KGB" or so
                > he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador
                > John Herbst (State
                > Department) are three government agents who have
                > attempted to
                > influence the Church Abroad to interests other than
                > purely Church
                > related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is
                > ...after decades of
                > State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet
                > Russia, here in the free
                > Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH.
                > The Bishops of our
                > Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to
                > guide the faithful as
                > they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and
                > correct, these
                > laymen certainly have their right to express their
                > personal opinions
                > but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to
                > intimidate or RULE OVER
                > THE CHURCH.
                > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                No I was not. Rev. S. Pavlenko
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                  No I was not.
                  Rev. S. Pavlenko


                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
                  <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Father bless!
                  >
                  > Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                  > midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                  > these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                  >
                  > Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.
                  >
                  > Bless!
                  >
                  > Michael Coleman
                  > Knoxville, TN
                • Anna Voellmecke
                  ... Which? You were asked an or question, so yes and no are not possible. answers. Anna V.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                    At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                    >No I was not.

                    Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                    possible. answers.

                    Anna V.
                  • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                    Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being sarcastic. ... Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who raised him an
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                      Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                      sarcastic.
                      -------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                      raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                      inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                      remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                      proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                      the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                      and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                      reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                      grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                      glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                      on and on....

                      Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                      tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                      Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                      the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                      Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                      of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                      Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                      supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                      Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                      Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                      Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                      Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                      Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                      in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                      the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                      Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                      Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                      Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                      Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                      Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                      Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                      > >No I was not.
                      >
                      > Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                      > possible. answers.
                      >
                      > Anna V.
                      >
                    • Mike Woodson
                      Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan, Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many perceptions. We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 8, 2006
                        Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan,

                        Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many
                        perceptions.

                        We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early 1990s before glasnost
                        froze to death, Preobrazhensky wrote about how the FSB, having just
                        changed its letters from KGB, was ill-adapted to defending Russia
                        against Chechen guerillas and terrorists. His point was that the FSB
                        was configured to keep the inmates in, so to speak, and not to defend
                        Russia against militants.

                        When the Beslan massacre happened, Preobrazhensky's concerns proved
                        true, being concerns for Russian lives, not his own personal
                        opportunities. On his perceptions of the MP officials, I think that he
                        is right in the main. Bearing in mind the rare exception to the
                        general rule, it is unlikely that "all" MP clergy are dedicated
                        opportunists, however, you don't need "all" of them to be so long as
                        most of them used their cover as a path to new power in Russia rooted
                        in their former KGB status and training. Such training is
                        recognizable in their actions.

                        I see Preobrazhensky opposing those actions and words -- which puts
                        him in the repentant category. "Once KGB, always KGB" I suspect
                        refers to the training and its habits, and also, his ability to
                        recognize former colleagues and their modes of operation ( even in the
                        MP ).

                        As for your assertions about the United States, which has been a safe
                        harbor for a significant Russian diaspora for a long time now, we
                        differ a great deal, and I have to suppress the temptation of anger at
                        your provocation against a country I love and am loyal and dedicated
                        to as much as you are to your own homeland.

                        As you benefit from this country that has had freedom of belief and
                        religious practice during its entire existence, you criticize it with
                        a spirit I can only recognize as irrational anger stoked by
                        propaganda. Who does the propaganda benefit? The RF, not the Church.
                        That's how to judge its source.

                        I'd rather have an Orange Revolution Father, than the toxic, green
                        glowing one dumped on Europe by the politicians to which you and your
                        like-minded have just joined the ROCOR. Manifest destiny is an
                        outdated, obsolete doctrine of the 18th-19th centuries for the US.
                        However, you have identified it as a modern Russian governing right to
                        Ukraine. I disagree that any nation has a right to rule another
                        unless God says it is so in no uncertain terms.

                        respectfully,
                        Michael

                        More specific political responses below:


                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                        <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                        > Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                        > sarcastic.
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                        > raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                        > inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                        > remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                        > proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                        > the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                        > and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                        > reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                        > grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                        > glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                        > on and on....

                        It's the headwaters of the renewal that determines the purity of the
                        water flowing downstream in an autocracy, Father Stefan. Perhaps God
                        will change out the MP leadership his own Way, and all will be
                        redeemed. I certainly hope so. It's behavior doesn't support this
                        hope so far. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump -- churches,
                        publications and so on. The current RF pragmatists have learned that
                        they need to use the Church, not persecute it, to stay in power over
                        their fellow Russians. However, using the Church is as bad or worse
                        than overtly attacking it, because it will hurt the faith of many who
                        cease to believe as the MP follows the course of playing Church to
                        attain political goals. May they repent of their course, or may God
                        turn the tables on them to the benefit of the Russian flock (and
                        everyone else related).

                        >
                        > Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                        > tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                        > Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                        > the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                        > Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                        > of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                        > Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                        > supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                        > Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                        People in the US don't fear Russians, but many fear the recent
                        historical tendency toward severe abuse of power in Russian governing
                        habits, which have some long and dreary precedents of abuse over the
                        past 200 years. Hundreds of millions dead and imprisoned by their
                        own? Gulags? That is a serious precedent for distrust of Russian use
                        of authority. The USA has some problems and has done some wrongs, but
                        nothing on that magnitude. It's safeguards and culture are optimistic
                        toward good will in the main. I hope that doesn't change as other
                        powers seek to provoke her into wars abroad. May God look out for us
                        again and help us find our service to Him.

                        >
                        > Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                        > Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                        > Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                        > Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                        > in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                        > the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                        > Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                        > Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                        > Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                        > Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                        > Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                        > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                        Ukraine is not owned by Russia any more than it is owned by anyone else.

                        Georgia invited help with putting down terrorist passage through the
                        Pankisi Gorge at its border, and the US gave it help to dry up
                        supplies to terrorists and militants also fighting US forces in
                        Afghanistan and nearby bases, then retreating into that area. China
                        has also wanted the area cleared, to staunch weapon supply to its
                        Uigher population. That you would turn all of this into an
                        anti-Russian effort is way off. Georgia is Orthodox Christian itself
                        and must deal with Muslim militants. It wasn't getting any help from
                        the Russia of "manifest destiny" either.
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