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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Magerovsky speech at Secretary of the ROCA SYNOD 10 year "chestvovanie"

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  • gene703
    FYI from E.L. Magerovsky s wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian) http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 4, 2006
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      FYI
      from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
      http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html


      "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:
      Dear kotlyaroff@..., (the post was not signed).

      Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal,
      which contains truly Christian and Orthodox views, such as the
      illustration on this page:

      http://elmager.livejournal.com/79943.html

      Lovely.

      Accompanied by the image of the Kursk-Root Icon, no less.

      Can any serious Orthodox Christian associate himself with such?

      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his facts . The apocryphal Council of Ust-Kut is one of Vladimir Moss s stories.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 5, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
        >
        > FYI
        > from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
        > http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html

        JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his "facts".

        The apocryphal "Council of Ust-Kut" is one of Vladimir Moss's stories.

        Supposedly, all of the arrested bishops of the Russian Church happened to be in Ust-Kut
        at the same time, and were able to hold a "Sobor" there, at which they "anathematized"
        everyone else.

        Aside from the fact that such an action does not sound like the hierarchs of the Russian
        Church; that there is no evidence they were in Ust-Kut; or that such an unscheduled
        "Sobor" would have to be approved subsequently by a normal Sobor to have any weight:
        there is also the problem of no records and no evidence that this "Sobor" ever took place.

        Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told
        someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...

        And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • michael nikitin
        Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss. In a book Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei by Ivan
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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          Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
          In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are stated. Fr. John should read the book. Ivan M. Andreev himself was in this prison working as a doctor and knew many details of what has transpired and wrote exactly what Prof. Magerovsky states.
          .
          St Nektary of Optina said about Metr. Sergiy who was in Obnovlenchensky heresy and repented before people and Holy Patr. Tikhon, "Yes, he repented, but the poison is still in him."

          Declaration of 1927 was signed by Metr. Sergiy and 25 bishops refused to sign it. Only 7 bishops signed it. Poor Russian people, they don't know the facts. They only know MP's distortion of history.

          Fr.John is wrong to write: "Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it." He should find this book and read it.

          Michael N



          Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, gene703 <gene703@... > wrote:
          >
          > FYI
          > from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
          > http://elmager. livejournal. com/81981. html

          JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his "facts".

          The apocryphal "Council of Ust-Kut" is one of Vladimir Moss's stories.

          Supposedly, all of the arrested bishops of the Russian Church happened to be in Ust-Kut
          at the same time, and were able to hold a "Sobor" there, at which they "anathematized"
          everyone else.

          Aside from the fact that such an action does not sound like the hierarchs of the Russian
          Church; that there is no evidence they were in Ust-Kut; or that such an unscheduled
          "Sobor" would have to be approved subsequently by a normal Sobor to have any weight:
          there is also the problem of no records and no evidence that this "Sobor" ever took place.

          Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told
          someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...

          And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw







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        • Fr. John R. Shaw
          ... JRS: Actually, it s the other way around: they are the ones who have been quick to judge ROCOR. ... JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

            > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

            JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
            ROCOR.

            > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
            >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
            >stated.

            JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
            years have been enormous.

            2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

            When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
            died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
            all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
            smuggled into the Soviet Union.

            In Christ
            Fr. John R. Shaw
          • michael nikitin
            I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev s historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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              I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they did not protest against anything in the book.

              The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael Polsky. A
              different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's book is
              historical...he was there.

              Fr. John received his information from the MP?
              You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just write without backing it up.

              Michael N


              "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

              > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

              JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
              ROCOR.

              > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
              >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
              >stated.

              JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
              years have been enormous.

              2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

              When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
              died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
              all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
              smuggled into the Soviet Union.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw






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            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally. ... JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts. I myself don t usually bother to
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

                > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book.

                JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally.

                > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander
                >and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe
                >anything that you just write without backing it up.

                JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts.

                I myself don't usually bother to do that, because the research takes too much time.

                And those (usually HOCNA members) who attack ROCOR, only ignore or reject the
                evidence, no matter how convincing it is.

                BTW your style and comments are practically identical with those of one "Peter Andreev".

                I also notice little peculiarities you both share, such as not spacing after "Fr.", if the priest
                referred to is a ROCOR apologist.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb Book New Martyrs of
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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                  Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the
                  Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb
                  Book "New Martyrs of Russia" (Protopresbyter Michael Polsky, Noviye
                  Mucheniki Rossijskiye, Jordanville, 1957), the most definitive book
                  at that time, on the subject of Soviet persecution of the faithful,
                  clergy laity and of the destruction and desecration of Church
                  property. He came from the Soviet Union and he died in San
                  Francisco. Except for a few minor discrepancies his accounts are
                  absolutely unquestioned and the research in Russia now on the fate
                  of the New Martyrs has Father Michael to thank for being one of the
                  trail blazers. Platina printed a book in English which was
                  essentially a translation of Father Michael's work.
                  In Russia one of the criteria for supporting the canonization
                  (including in the official lists) of a particular Martyr is to
                  verify that during the interrogation and any attempt at "saving
                  oneself" the tortured and murdered person did not BETRAY others!
                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                  -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                  <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote
                  what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery
                  published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they
                  did not protest against anything in the book.
                  >
                  > The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael
                  Polsky. A
                  > different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's
                  book is
                  > historical...he was there.
                  >
                  > Fr. John received his information from the MP?
                  > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but
                  since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit
                  in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just
                  write without backing it up.
                  >
                  > Michael N
                  >
                  >
                  > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                  <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
                  >
                  > JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who
                  have been "quick to judge"
                  > ROCOR.
                  >
                  > > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do
                  Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
                  > >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in
                  1952, these facts are
                  > >stated.
                  >
                  > JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about
                  in the intervening 54
                  > years have been enormous.
                  >
                  > 2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.
                  >
                  > When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of
                  the people listed as having
                  > died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije",
                  had in fact survived, after
                  > all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after
                  copies of it were
                  > smuggled into the Soviet Union.
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ( KGB always KGB or so he himself has said!
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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                    Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin
                    Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB always KGB" or so
                    he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador John Herbst (State
                    Department) are three government agents who have attempted to
                    influence the Church Abroad to interests other than purely Church
                    related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is ...after decades of
                    State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet Russia, here in the free
                    Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH. The Bishops of our
                    Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to guide the faithful as
                    they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and correct, these
                    laymen certainly have their right to express their personal opinions
                    but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to intimidate or RULE OVER
                    THE CHURCH.
                    Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                  • Michael Coleman
                    Father bless! Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
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                      Father bless!

                      Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                      midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                      these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?

                      Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.

                      Bless!

                      Michael Coleman
                      Knoxville, TN

                      --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:

                      > Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr.
                      > Konstantin
                      > Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB
                      > always KGB" or so
                      > he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador
                      > John Herbst (State
                      > Department) are three government agents who have
                      > attempted to
                      > influence the Church Abroad to interests other than
                      > purely Church
                      > related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is
                      > ...after decades of
                      > State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet
                      > Russia, here in the free
                      > Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH.
                      > The Bishops of our
                      > Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to
                      > guide the faithful as
                      > they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and
                      > correct, these
                      > laymen certainly have their right to express their
                      > personal opinions
                      > but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to
                      > intimidate or RULE OVER
                      > THE CHURCH.
                      > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      No I was not. Rev. S. Pavlenko
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                        No I was not.
                        Rev. S. Pavlenko


                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
                        <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Father bless!
                        >
                        > Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                        > midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                        > these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                        >
                        > Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.
                        >
                        > Bless!
                        >
                        > Michael Coleman
                        > Knoxville, TN
                      • Anna Voellmecke
                        ... Which? You were asked an or question, so yes and no are not possible. answers. Anna V.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                          At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                          >No I was not.

                          Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                          possible. answers.

                          Anna V.
                        • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                          Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being sarcastic. ... Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who raised him an
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
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                            Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                            sarcastic.
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                            raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                            inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                            remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                            proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                            the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                            and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                            reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                            grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                            glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                            on and on....

                            Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                            tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                            Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                            the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                            Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                            of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                            Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                            supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                            Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                            Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                            Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                            Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                            Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                            in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                            the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                            Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                            Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                            Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                            Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                            Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                            Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                            > >No I was not.
                            >
                            > Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                            > possible. answers.
                            >
                            > Anna V.
                            >
                          • Mike Woodson
                            Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan, Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many perceptions. We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 8, 2006
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                              Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan,

                              Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many
                              perceptions.

                              We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early 1990s before glasnost
                              froze to death, Preobrazhensky wrote about how the FSB, having just
                              changed its letters from KGB, was ill-adapted to defending Russia
                              against Chechen guerillas and terrorists. His point was that the FSB
                              was configured to keep the inmates in, so to speak, and not to defend
                              Russia against militants.

                              When the Beslan massacre happened, Preobrazhensky's concerns proved
                              true, being concerns for Russian lives, not his own personal
                              opportunities. On his perceptions of the MP officials, I think that he
                              is right in the main. Bearing in mind the rare exception to the
                              general rule, it is unlikely that "all" MP clergy are dedicated
                              opportunists, however, you don't need "all" of them to be so long as
                              most of them used their cover as a path to new power in Russia rooted
                              in their former KGB status and training. Such training is
                              recognizable in their actions.

                              I see Preobrazhensky opposing those actions and words -- which puts
                              him in the repentant category. "Once KGB, always KGB" I suspect
                              refers to the training and its habits, and also, his ability to
                              recognize former colleagues and their modes of operation ( even in the
                              MP ).

                              As for your assertions about the United States, which has been a safe
                              harbor for a significant Russian diaspora for a long time now, we
                              differ a great deal, and I have to suppress the temptation of anger at
                              your provocation against a country I love and am loyal and dedicated
                              to as much as you are to your own homeland.

                              As you benefit from this country that has had freedom of belief and
                              religious practice during its entire existence, you criticize it with
                              a spirit I can only recognize as irrational anger stoked by
                              propaganda. Who does the propaganda benefit? The RF, not the Church.
                              That's how to judge its source.

                              I'd rather have an Orange Revolution Father, than the toxic, green
                              glowing one dumped on Europe by the politicians to which you and your
                              like-minded have just joined the ROCOR. Manifest destiny is an
                              outdated, obsolete doctrine of the 18th-19th centuries for the US.
                              However, you have identified it as a modern Russian governing right to
                              Ukraine. I disagree that any nation has a right to rule another
                              unless God says it is so in no uncertain terms.

                              respectfully,
                              Michael

                              More specific political responses below:


                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                              <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                              > Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                              > sarcastic.
                              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                              > raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                              > inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                              > remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                              > proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                              > the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                              > and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                              > reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                              > grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                              > glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                              > on and on....

                              It's the headwaters of the renewal that determines the purity of the
                              water flowing downstream in an autocracy, Father Stefan. Perhaps God
                              will change out the MP leadership his own Way, and all will be
                              redeemed. I certainly hope so. It's behavior doesn't support this
                              hope so far. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump -- churches,
                              publications and so on. The current RF pragmatists have learned that
                              they need to use the Church, not persecute it, to stay in power over
                              their fellow Russians. However, using the Church is as bad or worse
                              than overtly attacking it, because it will hurt the faith of many who
                              cease to believe as the MP follows the course of playing Church to
                              attain political goals. May they repent of their course, or may God
                              turn the tables on them to the benefit of the Russian flock (and
                              everyone else related).

                              >
                              > Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                              > tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                              > Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                              > the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                              > Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                              > of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                              > Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                              > supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                              > Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                              People in the US don't fear Russians, but many fear the recent
                              historical tendency toward severe abuse of power in Russian governing
                              habits, which have some long and dreary precedents of abuse over the
                              past 200 years. Hundreds of millions dead and imprisoned by their
                              own? Gulags? That is a serious precedent for distrust of Russian use
                              of authority. The USA has some problems and has done some wrongs, but
                              nothing on that magnitude. It's safeguards and culture are optimistic
                              toward good will in the main. I hope that doesn't change as other
                              powers seek to provoke her into wars abroad. May God look out for us
                              again and help us find our service to Him.

                              >
                              > Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                              > Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                              > Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                              > Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                              > in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                              > the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                              > Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                              > Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                              > Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                              > Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                              > Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                              > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                              Ukraine is not owned by Russia any more than it is owned by anyone else.

                              Georgia invited help with putting down terrorist passage through the
                              Pankisi Gorge at its border, and the US gave it help to dry up
                              supplies to terrorists and militants also fighting US forces in
                              Afghanistan and nearby bases, then retreating into that area. China
                              has also wanted the area cleared, to staunch weapon supply to its
                              Uigher population. That you would turn all of this into an
                              anti-Russian effort is way off. Georgia is Orthodox Christian itself
                              and must deal with Muslim militants. It wasn't getting any help from
                              the Russia of "manifest destiny" either.
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