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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Interview with the Secretary of the ROCA SYNOD in Russian ..

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  • Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
    Dear kotlyaroff@yahoo.com, (the post was not signed). Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky s wonderful Live Journal, which contains truly Christian and
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 1, 2006
      Dear kotlyaroff@..., (the post was not signed).

      Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal,
      which contains truly Christian and Orthodox views, such as the
      illustration on this page:

      http://elmager.livejournal.com/79943.html

      Lovely.

      Accompanied by the image of the Kursk-Root Icon, no less.

      Can any serious Orthodox Christian associate himself with such?

      With love in Christ,

      Prot. Alexander Lebedeff


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frvictor@comcast.net
      That is sick. It reminds me of the anti-religious Soviet art. Disgraceful. No wonder the process of the reconciliation of the Russian Church is going forward.
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 1, 2006
        That is sick. It reminds me of the anti-religious Soviet art. Disgraceful. No wonder the process of the reconciliation of the Russian Church is going forward.

        Priest Victor Boldewskul

        -------------- Original message --------------
        From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>

        > Dear kotlyaroff@..., (the post was not signed).
        >
        > Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal,
        > which contains truly Christian and Orthodox views, such as the
        > illustration on this page:
        >
        > http://elmager.livejournal.com/79943.html
        >
        > Lovely.
        >
        > Accompanied by the image of the Kursk-Root Icon, no less.
        >
        > Can any serious Orthodox Christian associate himself with such?
        >
        > With love in Christ,
        >
        > Prot. Alexander Lebedeff
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • DDD
        On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:54 +0000, frvictor@comcast.net wrote: That is sick. It reminds me of the anti-religious Soviet art. Disgraceful. No wonder the
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 1, 2006
          On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:11:54 +0000, frvictor@... wrote:
          That is sick. It reminds me of the anti-religious Soviet art. Disgraceful. No wonder the process of the reconciliation of the Russian Church is going forward.

          Priest Victor Boldewskul

          -------------- Original message --------------
          From: "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...>

          > Dear kotlyaroff@..., (the post was not signed).
          >
          > Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal,
          > which contains truly Christian and Orthodox views, such as the
          > illustration on this page:
          >
          > http://elmager.livejournal.com/79943.html
          >
          > Lovely.
          > ______________________________________________________

          DD: How will E. L Magerovsky answer at the Dread Judgment for maligning these clergy, not to mention leading people out of the Church?
          When I look at Vladyka Mark, for example, I see -- an ascetic! Look at him.... he is so thin you can hardly see him sideways. Did it ever occur to anyone that this might be someone who prays and fasts? I would be frightened to mock God's clergy!

          --Dimitra Dwelley
          _______________________--
        • gene703
          FYI from E.L. Magerovsky s wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian) http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 4, 2006
            FYI
            from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
            http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html


            "Fr. Alexander Lebedeff" <lebedeff@...> wrote:
            Dear kotlyaroff@..., (the post was not signed).

            Thank you for publicizing E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal,
            which contains truly Christian and Orthodox views, such as the
            illustration on this page:

            http://elmager.livejournal.com/79943.html

            Lovely.

            Accompanied by the image of the Kursk-Root Icon, no less.

            Can any serious Orthodox Christian associate himself with such?

            With love in Christ,

            Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his facts . The apocryphal Council of Ust-Kut is one of Vladimir Moss s stories.
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 5, 2006
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, gene703 <gene703@...> wrote:
              >
              > FYI
              > from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
              > http://elmager.livejournal.com/81981.html

              JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his "facts".

              The apocryphal "Council of Ust-Kut" is one of Vladimir Moss's stories.

              Supposedly, all of the arrested bishops of the Russian Church happened to be in Ust-Kut
              at the same time, and were able to hold a "Sobor" there, at which they "anathematized"
              everyone else.

              Aside from the fact that such an action does not sound like the hierarchs of the Russian
              Church; that there is no evidence they were in Ust-Kut; or that such an unscheduled
              "Sobor" would have to be approved subsequently by a normal Sobor to have any weight:
              there is also the problem of no records and no evidence that this "Sobor" ever took place.

              Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told
              someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...

              And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • michael nikitin
              Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss. In a book Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei by Ivan
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
                In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are stated. Fr. John should read the book. Ivan M. Andreev himself was in this prison working as a doctor and knew many details of what has transpired and wrote exactly what Prof. Magerovsky states.
                .
                St Nektary of Optina said about Metr. Sergiy who was in Obnovlenchensky heresy and repented before people and Holy Patr. Tikhon, "Yes, he repented, but the poison is still in him."

                Declaration of 1927 was signed by Metr. Sergiy and 25 bishops refused to sign it. Only 7 bishops signed it. Poor Russian people, they don't know the facts. They only know MP's distortion of history.

                Fr.John is wrong to write: "Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it." He should find this book and read it.

                Michael N



                Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                --- In orthodox-synod@ yahoogroups. com, gene703 <gene703@... > wrote:
                >
                > FYI
                > from E.L. Magerovsky's wonderful Live Journal :-) (in russian)
                > http://elmager. livejournal. com/81981. html

                JRS: One does not have to read very far to see where E.L.M. gets his "facts".

                The apocryphal "Council of Ust-Kut" is one of Vladimir Moss's stories.

                Supposedly, all of the arrested bishops of the Russian Church happened to be in Ust-Kut
                at the same time, and were able to hold a "Sobor" there, at which they "anathematized"
                everyone else.

                Aside from the fact that such an action does not sound like the hierarchs of the Russian
                Church; that there is no evidence they were in Ust-Kut; or that such an unscheduled
                "Sobor" would have to be approved subsequently by a normal Sobor to have any weight:
                there is also the problem of no records and no evidence that this "Sobor" ever took place.

                Mr. Moss, however, claimed that it was all fact: because a long-deceased man had told
                someone else that he had heard about it, from someone who "knew"...

                And now, E. L. Magerovsky believes it.

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw







                ---------------------------------
                Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: Actually, it s the other way around: they are the ones who have been quick to judge ROCOR. ... JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

                  > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

                  JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
                  ROCOR.

                  > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
                  >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
                  >stated.

                  JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
                  years have been enormous.

                  2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

                  When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
                  died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
                  all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
                  smuggled into the Soviet Union.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • michael nikitin
                  I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev s historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                    I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they did not protest against anything in the book.

                    The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael Polsky. A
                    different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's book is
                    historical...he was there.

                    Fr. John received his information from the MP?
                    You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just write without backing it up.

                    Michael N


                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

                    > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.

                    JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who have been "quick to judge"
                    ROCOR.

                    > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
                    >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in 1952, these facts are
                    >stated.

                    JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about in the intervening 54
                    years have been enormous.

                    2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.

                    When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of the people listed as having
                    died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije", had in fact survived, after
                    all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after copies of it were
                    smuggled into the Soviet Union.

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw






                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally. ... JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts. I myself don t usually bother to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin <nikitinmike@...> wrote:

                      > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book.

                      JRS: But I knew Prof. Andreev personally.

                      > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but since you, Fr. Alexander
                      >and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit in the church, I find it difficult to believe
                      >anything that you just write without backing it up.

                      JRS: Fr. Alexander has usually backed up his comments with official texts.

                      I myself don't usually bother to do that, because the research takes too much time.

                      And those (usually HOCNA members) who attack ROCOR, only ignore or reject the
                      evidence, no matter how convincing it is.

                      BTW your style and comments are practically identical with those of one "Peter Andreev".

                      I also notice little peculiarities you both share, such as not spacing after "Fr.", if the priest
                      referred to is a ROCOR apologist.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                      Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb Book New Martyrs of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                        Father Michael Polsky was one of the most honored clerics of the
                        Russian Orthodox Church Abroad and the Author of the famous two tomb
                        Book "New Martyrs of Russia" (Protopresbyter Michael Polsky, Noviye
                        Mucheniki Rossijskiye, Jordanville, 1957), the most definitive book
                        at that time, on the subject of Soviet persecution of the faithful,
                        clergy laity and of the destruction and desecration of Church
                        property. He came from the Soviet Union and he died in San
                        Francisco. Except for a few minor discrepancies his accounts are
                        absolutely unquestioned and the research in Russia now on the fate
                        of the New Martyrs has Father Michael to thank for being one of the
                        trail blazers. Platina printed a book in English which was
                        essentially a translation of Father Michael's work.
                        In Russia one of the criteria for supporting the canonization
                        (including in the official lists) of a particular Martyr is to
                        verify that during the interrogation and any attempt at "saving
                        oneself" the tortured and murdered person did not BETRAY others!
                        Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko




                        -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                        <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I wrote from Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's historical book. He wrote
                        what he had seen and relived himself. Holy Trinity Monastery
                        published it in 1952 when all of our hierarchs were alive and they
                        did not protest against anything in the book.
                        >
                        > The book Fr.John is referring to was written by Fr.Michael
                        Polsky. A
                        > different person and a different book. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev's
                        book is
                        > historical...he was there.
                        >
                        > Fr. John received his information from the MP?
                        > You feel that everyone should believe what priests write, but
                        since you, Fr. Alexander and Fr.Stefan have nothing against deceit
                        in the church, I find it difficult to believe anything that you just
                        write without backing it up.
                        >
                        > Michael N
                        >
                        >
                        > "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
                        <nikitinmike@> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Fr. John is to quick to judge Prof. Magerovsky and Prof. Moss.
                        >
                        > JRS: Actually, it's the other way around: they are the ones who
                        have been "quick to judge"
                        > ROCOR.
                        >
                        > > In a book "Kratky Obzor Istorii Ruskoi Tserkvi ot Revolutsii do
                        Nashih Dnei" by Ivan
                        > >Michailovich Andreev, published in Holy Trinity Monastery in
                        1952, these facts are
                        > >stated.
                        >
                        > JRS: 1) This is 2006, not 1952. The changes that have come about
                        in the intervening 54
                        > years have been enormous.
                        >
                        > 2) Not everything that appears in print is therefore correct.
                        >
                        > When I was a seminarian at Jordanville, it came out that one of
                        the people listed as having
                        > died a martyr's death in the book "Novyje mucheniki rossijskije",
                        had in fact survived, after
                        > all, and lived on for years after the book was published and after
                        copies of it were
                        > smuggled into the Soviet Union.
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ( KGB always KGB or so he himself has said!
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                          Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr. Konstantin
                          Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB always KGB" or so
                          he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador John Herbst (State
                          Department) are three government agents who have attempted to
                          influence the Church Abroad to interests other than purely Church
                          related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is ...after decades of
                          State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet Russia, here in the free
                          Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH. The Bishops of our
                          Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to guide the faithful as
                          they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and correct, these
                          laymen certainly have their right to express their personal opinions
                          but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to intimidate or RULE OVER
                          THE CHURCH.
                          Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                        • Michael Coleman
                          Father bless! Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 6, 2006
                            Father bless!

                            Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                            midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                            these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?

                            Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.

                            Bless!

                            Michael Coleman
                            Knoxville, TN

                            --- Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                            <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:

                            > Dr. Eugene L. Magerovsky, Ph.D. (US Military), Mr.
                            > Konstantin
                            > Preobrazhensky, retired KGB lieutenant colonel ("KGB
                            > always KGB" or so
                            > he himself has said! /debrief CIA) and Ambassador
                            > John Herbst (State
                            > Department) are three government agents who have
                            > attempted to
                            > influence the Church Abroad to interests other than
                            > purely Church
                            > related and Spiritually founded, how sad this is
                            > ...after decades of
                            > State intrusion into Church Affairs in Soviet
                            > Russia, here in the free
                            > Western World the State encroaches on the CHURCH.
                            > The Bishops of our
                            > Church have the DUTY and the MORAL OBLIGATION to
                            > guide the faithful as
                            > they, as CONCECRATED ORTHODOX BISHOPS, see fit and
                            > correct, these
                            > laymen certainly have their right to express their
                            > personal opinions
                            > but they have no Ecclesiastical Authority to
                            > intimidate or RULE OVER
                            > THE CHURCH.
                            > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            __________________________________________________
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                          • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                            No I was not. Rev. S. Pavlenko
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                              No I was not.
                              Rev. S. Pavlenko


                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Michael Coleman
                              <usmichaelnew@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Father bless!
                              >
                              > Forgive me, as I am entering this discussion
                              > midstream: Are you writing seriously, Father, about
                              > these gentlemen? Or are you being sarcastic?
                              >
                              > Forgive my ignorance, as I cannot tell.
                              >
                              > Bless!
                              >
                              > Michael Coleman
                              > Knoxville, TN
                            • Anna Voellmecke
                              ... Which? You were asked an or question, so yes and no are not possible. answers. Anna V.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                                At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                                >No I was not.

                                Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                                possible. answers.

                                Anna V.
                              • Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko
                                Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being sarcastic. ... Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who raised him an
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 7, 2006
                                  Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                                  sarcastic.
                                  -------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                                  raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                                  inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                                  remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                                  proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                                  the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                                  and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                                  reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                                  grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                                  glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                                  on and on....

                                  Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                                  tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                                  Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                                  the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                                  Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                                  of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                                  Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                                  supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                                  Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                                  Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                                  Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                                  Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                                  Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                                  in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                                  the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                                  Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                                  Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                                  Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                                  Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                                  Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                                  Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko



                                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anna Voellmecke <anna@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > At 02:07 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
                                  > >No I was not.
                                  >
                                  > Which? You were asked an "or" question, so "yes" and "no" are not
                                  > possible. answers.
                                  >
                                  > Anna V.
                                  >
                                • Mike Woodson
                                  Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan, Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many perceptions. We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 8, 2006
                                    Dear Rev. Fr. Stefan,

                                    Clearly you are upset based on what you believe, but we differ on many
                                    perceptions.

                                    We read Preobrazhensky differently. In the early 1990s before glasnost
                                    froze to death, Preobrazhensky wrote about how the FSB, having just
                                    changed its letters from KGB, was ill-adapted to defending Russia
                                    against Chechen guerillas and terrorists. His point was that the FSB
                                    was configured to keep the inmates in, so to speak, and not to defend
                                    Russia against militants.

                                    When the Beslan massacre happened, Preobrazhensky's concerns proved
                                    true, being concerns for Russian lives, not his own personal
                                    opportunities. On his perceptions of the MP officials, I think that he
                                    is right in the main. Bearing in mind the rare exception to the
                                    general rule, it is unlikely that "all" MP clergy are dedicated
                                    opportunists, however, you don't need "all" of them to be so long as
                                    most of them used their cover as a path to new power in Russia rooted
                                    in their former KGB status and training. Such training is
                                    recognizable in their actions.

                                    I see Preobrazhensky opposing those actions and words -- which puts
                                    him in the repentant category. "Once KGB, always KGB" I suspect
                                    refers to the training and its habits, and also, his ability to
                                    recognize former colleagues and their modes of operation ( even in the
                                    MP ).

                                    As for your assertions about the United States, which has been a safe
                                    harbor for a significant Russian diaspora for a long time now, we
                                    differ a great deal, and I have to suppress the temptation of anger at
                                    your provocation against a country I love and am loyal and dedicated
                                    to as much as you are to your own homeland.

                                    As you benefit from this country that has had freedom of belief and
                                    religious practice during its entire existence, you criticize it with
                                    a spirit I can only recognize as irrational anger stoked by
                                    propaganda. Who does the propaganda benefit? The RF, not the Church.
                                    That's how to judge its source.

                                    I'd rather have an Orange Revolution Father, than the toxic, green
                                    glowing one dumped on Europe by the politicians to which you and your
                                    like-minded have just joined the ROCOR. Manifest destiny is an
                                    outdated, obsolete doctrine of the 18th-19th centuries for the US.
                                    However, you have identified it as a modern Russian governing right to
                                    Ukraine. I disagree that any nation has a right to rule another
                                    unless God says it is so in no uncertain terms.

                                    respectfully,
                                    Michael

                                    More specific political responses below:


                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko"
                                    <StefanVPavlenko@...> wrote:
                                    > Yes, I was indeed very serious, and no, I was not at all being
                                    > sarcastic.
                                    > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > Mr. Preobrazhensky has claimed that his father was a KGB agent who
                                    > raised him an Orthodox Christian and that he a KGB agent worked
                                    > inside the KGB to help the church, or what ever he claims he did to
                                    > remain an Orthodox Christian during the Soviet era. Yet he adamantly
                                    > proclaims "KGB always KGB" and does not allow for Orthodox Clergy of
                                    > the Moscow Patriarchate to have done what he claims for his father
                                    > and himself. All Moscow Patriarch Clergy are KGB to this day by his
                                    > reasoning and witness. Yet in today's Russia Monastic communities
                                    > grow, Churches are built, the New Martyrs and the ROYAL FAMILY
                                    > glorified, religion and religious publications available to all and
                                    > on and on....

                                    It's the headwaters of the renewal that determines the purity of the
                                    water flowing downstream in an autocracy, Father Stefan. Perhaps God
                                    will change out the MP leadership his own Way, and all will be
                                    redeemed. I certainly hope so. It's behavior doesn't support this
                                    hope so far. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump -- churches,
                                    publications and so on. The current RF pragmatists have learned that
                                    they need to use the Church, not persecute it, to stay in power over
                                    their fellow Russians. However, using the Church is as bad or worse
                                    than overtly attacking it, because it will hurt the faith of many who
                                    cease to believe as the MP follows the course of playing Church to
                                    attain political goals. May they repent of their course, or may God
                                    turn the tables on them to the benefit of the Russian flock (and
                                    everyone else related).

                                    >
                                    > Dr. Magerovsky is very tightly affiliated with Government think
                                    > tanks forming the opinions of Government agencies that make State
                                    > Department policy based on his and like minded individuals promoting
                                    > the Russo phobic continued policy of the United States against the
                                    > Russian Federation struggling to get a foot hold after the down fall
                                    > of the militantly atheistic Communist Soviet Regime. Most others
                                    > Poland, Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia, Czech Republic and others are
                                    > supported and buttressed promoting anti-Russian agendas, while
                                    > Russia is conspicuously not supported.

                                    People in the US don't fear Russians, but many fear the recent
                                    historical tendency toward severe abuse of power in Russian governing
                                    habits, which have some long and dreary precedents of abuse over the
                                    past 200 years. Hundreds of millions dead and imprisoned by their
                                    own? Gulags? That is a serious precedent for distrust of Russian use
                                    of authority. The USA has some problems and has done some wrongs, but
                                    nothing on that magnitude. It's safeguards and culture are optimistic
                                    toward good will in the main. I hope that doesn't change as other
                                    powers seek to provoke her into wars abroad. May God look out for us
                                    again and help us find our service to Him.

                                    >
                                    > Ukraine and the millions pumped into it during the Orange
                                    > Revolution, which was done to insure that those who understand
                                    > Russia, Ukraine and Belarus to be the manifest destiny of an
                                    > Orthodox Slavic Nation (as Imperial Russia was) would have no chance
                                    > in their country's policies; reveals quite clearly the interests of
                                    > the US State Department, and its willingness to support Moslem
                                    > Albanian terrorists (this is evident in Kosovo to this day!) and
                                    > Moslem *Chechen terrorists (read "Chechnya Weekly" editor John
                                    > Dunlop) and Moslem Asetian separatists/terrorists (the whole US-
                                    > Georgian adventure) in the measures proped up against a strong, free
                                    > Orthodox Russia or any Orthodox Slavic unity.
                                    > Archpriest Stefan Pavlenko

                                    Ukraine is not owned by Russia any more than it is owned by anyone else.

                                    Georgia invited help with putting down terrorist passage through the
                                    Pankisi Gorge at its border, and the US gave it help to dry up
                                    supplies to terrorists and militants also fighting US forces in
                                    Afghanistan and nearby bases, then retreating into that area. China
                                    has also wanted the area cleared, to staunch weapon supply to its
                                    Uigher population. That you would turn all of this into an
                                    anti-Russian effort is way off. Georgia is Orthodox Christian itself
                                    and must deal with Muslim militants. It wasn't getting any help from
                                    the Russia of "manifest destiny" either.
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