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Fw: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried for heresy in secular court

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  • Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap
    ... From: Fr Ambrose To: Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 15, 2006
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Fr Ambrose" <emrys@...>
      To: <orthodox@...>
      Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:02 PM
      Subject: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried for heresy in secular court


      > Greek Government to try Monks for Heresy
      > Imposter brotherhood seizes monastery land
      >
      > Mt Athos, Greece , August 14, 2006 =96 The monks of the holy and sacred
      > monastery of Esphigmenou of Mt. Athos have been served papers to appear
      > in Greek Court in Thessaloniki , to be tried for Schism and Heresy. The
      > trial date has been set for September 29, 2006, in the Greek Government
      > Criminal Court in Thessaloniki .
      >
      > The charge of schism and heresy by a government against its own
      > citizens, has not been seen in modern European history. That chapter of
      > European history, where the Church accuses someone and then demands that
      > the State apparatus move against them and confiscate their property
      > unless they "repent", is coming back to life today in Greece.
      >
      > The patriarch in Istanbul has leveled this baseless charge against the
      > monks in order to confiscate their property and make an example to other
      > Orthodox clergy who dare to question him. The monks have a spiritual
      > disagreement with the patriarch and have sought dialogue with him to
      > clarify the Patriarch=92s departure from Orthodox teachings. Unlike
      > western tradition, the Patriarch in the Orthodox Church is not
      > infallible, and 23 Patriarchs have been deposed for heresy, some of them
      > posthumously.
      >
      > The Patriarch has refused any dialogue with the monks and has demanded
      > their unconditional repentance rather than address their legitimate
      > concerns regarding his teachings and practices which are in conflict
      > with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Instead he has moved to evict
      > the monks from the only home they know.
      >
      > The Greek Government has shamefully acquiesced to pressure by the
      > Patriarch to use force to blockade and evict the monks. Greek Foreign
      > Minister Ms. Dora Bakoyiannis, under whose ultimate authority Mt Athos
      > resides, controls the apparatus of the Greek State in Mt. Athos , and it
      > is under her ultimate authority that the blockade of food, medicine,
      > heating oil, and medical care has been denied to the monks. The
      > Inquisition that the Greek Church was spared in the Middle Ages, is now
      > being lived by the monks in modern day Greece .
      >
      > In an attempt to hide these actions against Esphigmenou monastery from
      > public view, the Patriarch and his accomplices in the Greek government
      > have established an imposter brotherhood, using the same name
      > =93Esphigmenou=94 and have begun to divert all mail, bank accounts and
      > real estate belonging to the monastery to the new imposter brotherhood
      > which they control. This is done while the true brotherhood is blockaded
      > in their monastery and prohibited by the Greek police and coast guard
      > from receiving deliveries of food, heating oil, or visits from doctors
      > to care for sick and elderly monks. The monastery=92s tractor has been
      > seized by the police to prevent the monks from growing their own food,
      > and their telephone lines have been cut to prevent communication to the
      > outside world. Five monks have died without having received medical
      > attention, as the police have physically prohibited doctors from
      > entering the monastery to provide care.
      >
      > Recently, monks of the impostor brotherhood have seized land belonging
      > to the besieged Monastery of Esphigmenou and have begun clearing the
      > area to set foundations for building, thereby attempting to gain
      > legitimacy for their brotherhood, claiming that they are on Esphigmenou
      > Monastery land and that their false abbot, Chrysostomos Katsoulieries,
      > can claim to be abbot
      >
      > For further information please contact
      >
      > John Rigas in USA - 617-331-3412
      > or in Greece 011-30-6978792438
      > http://www.esphigmenou.com/
      > -
      > -
      > -
      > To unsubscribe send UNSUBSCRIBE ORTHODOX to LISTSERV@...
      > To temporarily stop receiving messages send SET ORTHODOX NOMAIL
      > Archives accessible at http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/orthodox.html
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: If they go through with this trial (or even if they back off, once it has been in the news), it will give Greece and the Orthodox Church a huge black
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 15, 2006
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap" <orthodoxhome@...>
        wrote:

        > > Greek Government to try Monks for Heresy

        JRS: If they go through with this trial (or even if they back off, once it has been in the
        news), it will give Greece and the Orthodox Church a huge "black eye", worldwide.

        A heresy trial is also just the thing to give impetus to a "separation of Church and State" in
        Greece.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • David-Constantine Wright
        ... As well it should. In Christ, Rd. D-C +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ...
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 15, 2006
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          > A heresy trial is also just the thing to give impetus to
          > a "separation of Church and State" in Greece.

          As well it should.

          In Christ,
          Rd. D-C

          +-------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Reader David-Constantine Wright constantinewright@... |
          | Personal Website: http://constans_wright.tripod.com |
          | "God became Human so that humans could become gods." |
          | St. Athanasius the Great, *On the Incarnation* |
          +-------------------------------------------------------------+
        • interestedplus
          Dear Rev Mark, Thank you for giving us these sad news. This event is of great significance to all Orthodox for 2 reasons; 1. the spiritual significance of Mt
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 16, 2006
            Dear Rev Mark,

            Thank you for giving us these sad news.

            This event is of great significance to all Orthodox for 2 reasons;

            1. the spiritual significance of Mt Athos historically
            2. the current "opolchenie" or increases in the feverishness of
            attacks against traditional Orthodoxy around the world.

            I humbly ask Fr John Shaw, Mat Anne Lardas and all those on this
            forum to prayerfully consider that there are strong parallels
            between the Greek Patriarch's spirit in this instance and the spirit
            of the MP when "dealing with" the Catacomb Church to this day, when
            dealing with ROCOR over the Imperial Church in Buenos Aires and
            ROCOR monasteries in the Holy Land....

            I humbly ask Matushka Lardas and all those who passionately believe
            that uniting with the current MP is to the benefit of the Russian
            Orthodox Church, to search and see who the MP will be backing on
            this issue. Now at the moment I have NO INFORMATION as to the MP
            position on this.

            Is the MP going to support centralised power of a patriarchate, even
            though they have been at odds in the past? Or will they support
            getting food and medicine to the ill monks and a Church resolution
            to the conflict? Athos - is it Greek only? Or is it an Orthodox
            shrine?

            Waiting for more information and hoping I am wrong in my prediction.

            Lets pray for the Monks who are on the front line of battle. May God
            have mercy on us sinners!

            Alex (Chado Ot. Timofeia)

            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Rev Fr Mark Gilstrap"
            <orthodoxhome@...> wrote:
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Fr Ambrose" <emrys@...>
            > To: <orthodox@...>
            > Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:02 PM
            > Subject: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried for heresy in secular court
            >
            >
            > > Greek Government to try Monks for Heresy
            > > Imposter brotherhood seizes monastery land
            > >
            > > Mt Athos, Greece , August 14, 2006 =96 The monks of the holy and
            sacred
            > > monastery of Esphigmenou of Mt. Athos have been served papers to
            appear
            > > in Greek Court in Thessaloniki , to be tried for Schism and
            Heresy. The
            > > trial date has been set for September 29, 2006, in the Greek
            Government
            > > Criminal Court in Thessaloniki .
            > >
            > > The charge of schism and heresy by a government against its own
            > > citizens, has not been seen in modern European history. That
            chapter of
            > > European history, where the Church accuses someone and then
            demands that
            > > the State apparatus move against them and confiscate their
            property
            > > unless they "repent", is coming back to life today in Greece.
            > >
            > > The patriarch in Istanbul has leveled this baseless charge
            against the
            > > monks in order to confiscate their property and make an example
            to other
            > > Orthodox clergy who dare to question him. The monks have a
            spiritual
            > > disagreement with the patriarch and have sought dialogue with
            him to
            > > clarify the Patriarch=92s departure from Orthodox teachings.
            Unlike
            > > western tradition, the Patriarch in the Orthodox Church is not
            > > infallible, and 23 Patriarchs have been deposed for heresy, some
            of them
            > > posthumously.
            > >
            > > The Patriarch has refused any dialogue with the monks and has
            demanded
            > > their unconditional repentance rather than address their
            legitimate
            > > concerns regarding his teachings and practices which are in
            conflict
            > > with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Instead he has moved
            to evict
            > > the monks from the only home they know.
            > >
            > > The Greek Government has shamefully acquiesced to pressure by
            the
            > > Patriarch to use force to blockade and evict the monks. Greek
            Foreign
            > > Minister Ms. Dora Bakoyiannis, under whose ultimate authority Mt
            Athos
            > > resides, controls the apparatus of the Greek State in Mt.
            Athos , and it
            > > is under her ultimate authority that the blockade of food,
            medicine,
            > > heating oil, and medical care has been denied to the monks. The
            > > Inquisition that the Greek Church was spared in the Middle Ages,
            is now
            > > being lived by the monks in modern day Greece .
            > >
            > > In an attempt to hide these actions against Esphigmenou
            monastery from
            > > public view, the Patriarch and his accomplices in the Greek
            government
            > > have established an imposter brotherhood, using the same name
            > > =93Esphigmenou=94 and have begun to divert all mail, bank
            accounts and
            > > real estate belonging to the monastery to the new imposter
            brotherhood
            > > which they control. This is done while the true brotherhood is
            blockaded
            > > in their monastery and prohibited by the Greek police and coast
            guard
            > > from receiving deliveries of food, heating oil, or visits from
            doctors
            > > to care for sick and elderly monks. The monastery=92s tractor
            has been
            > > seized by the police to prevent the monks from growing their own
            food,
            > > and their telephone lines have been cut to prevent communication
            to the
            > > outside world. Five monks have died without having received
            medical
            > > attention, as the police have physically prohibited doctors from
            > > entering the monastery to provide care.
            > >
            > > Recently, monks of the impostor brotherhood have seized land
            belonging
            > > to the besieged Monastery of Esphigmenou and have begun clearing
            the
            > > area to set foundations for building, thereby attempting to gain
            > > legitimacy for their brotherhood, claiming that they are on
            Esphigmenou
            > > Monastery land and that their false abbot, Chrysostomos
            Katsoulieries,
            > > can claim to be abbot
            > >
            > > For further information please contact
            > >
            > > John Rigas in USA - 617-331-3412
            > > or in Greece 011-30-6978792438
            > > http://www.esphigmenou.com/
            > > -
            > > -
            > > -
            > > To unsubscribe send UNSUBSCRIBE ORTHODOX to LISTSERV@...
            > > To temporarily stop receiving messages send SET ORTHODOX NOMAIL
            > > Archives accessible at
            http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/orthodox.html
            >
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: 1) The original story appears to be incorrect. If there were to be a heresy trial in Greece, it would have been big news, and so far no source
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "interestedplus" <asvetlov@...> wrote:

              > I humbly ask Fr John Shaw, Mat Anne Lardas and all those on this
              > forum to prayerfully consider that there are strong parallels
              > between the Greek Patriarch's spirit in this instance and the spirit
              > of the MP when "dealing with" the Catacomb Church to this day, when
              > dealing with ROCOR over the Imperial Church in Buenos Aires and
              > ROCOR monasteries in the Holy Land....

              JRS: 1) The original story appears to be incorrect.

              If there were to be a "heresy trial" in Greece, it would have been big news, and so far no
              source except for John Rigas has mentioned it.

              By all indications, this is only a civil lawsuit over possession of property.

              2) But having said that, I am no fan of the current Ecumenical Patriarch.

              3) At the present time, the commissions of the Moscow Patriarchate and ROCOR seem to
              have reached agreements on all the issues that divided us.

              There is no such dialogue between the Phanar and either the Old Calendarists, or the
              Russian Church.

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • Anastasios Dustin Hudson
              Dear Orthodox-Synod list members, At the request of a ROCOR priest, I am reposting a post I made to the Indiana List here. In Christ, Anastasios ... Dear
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
                Dear Orthodox-Synod list members,

                At the request of a ROCOR priest, I am reposting a
                post I made to the Indiana List here.

                In Christ,

                Anastasios

                ------------------------------------------------------

                Dear fellow List members,

                First of all, I would like to urge people to not to
                base their impressions of Esphigmenou solely on Mr
                Rigas. My Godfather visited Esphigmenou last year and
                described the conditions as similar to what the CNN
                accounts and Mr Rigas have reported. Mr Rigas has in
                the past on other lists said inaccurate things,
                especially concerning Bishop Petros of Astoria and his
                successor Metropolitan Pavlos of America (my bishop)
                so I would also take caution at what he writes, but
                not steer to the other extreme which seems to be to
                assume that he is fabricating the entire story.

                The problem with some comments on the issue, that the
                EP is their bishop so they should "just do as told"
                don't make sense in the historic context of resistance
                to error of the monasteries of Mt Athos. Even if one
                does not agree that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has
                fallen into schism via its ecumenism and New
                Calendarism, one can still understand that the monks
                of Esphigmenou, believing this to be true, are merely
                following in the foosteps of other monasteries of Mt
                Athos who resisted the Latin minded patriarchs, some
                of whom were even martyred. So while one may not in
                the end agree with Esphigmenou, to reduce it to "well
                the EP is their bishop, they should obey!" is simply a
                reduction to simplicity, because of course when the
                question is heresy, one does not obey one's bishop.
                There is nothing revolutionary about this--in fact, I
                have read that most of the monasteries were
                non-commemorators for some time after the Calendar
                schism, and one by one, they have returned to
                commemoration, except for Esphigmenou. While this may
                make them intransigent, it may also be that they are
                the last holdout of a formerly-common approach of
                resistance.

                Of course, should Esphigmenou be disbanded, I am sure
                we will find places in our monastic institutions (i.e.
                in the Greek Old Calendarist Church, under Archbishop
                Chrysostomos II, who it is no secret is the Synod
                Esphigmenou is in communion with) for these monks to
                reside, but it would be a shame to see the community
                disbanded and divided over this, in my opinion.

                As regards the heresy trial, we shall see what happens
                I suppose; it is rather senseless I think to speculate
                over the issue until there is confirmation one way or
                the other.

                Some will undoubtedly disagree with Esphigmenou's
                stance, but I would only ask that they not assume Mr
                Rigas to be the only source related to this issue and
                that they at least try to see that Esphigmenou sees
                itself standing in the path of the other monasteries
                in the past who resisted previous patriarchs deemed to
                be in error. I of course believe they are right in
                what they are doing.

                In Christ,

                Anastasios


                __________________________________________________
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              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: If it does come to that (the monastic brotherhood being driven out of Esphigmenou), then it would be possible, rather than scattering the monks in
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anastasios Dustin Hudson
                  <anastasios0513@...> wrote:

                  > Of course, should Esphigmenou be disbanded, I am sure
                  > we will find places in our monastic institutions (i.e.
                  > in the Greek Old Calendarist Church, under Archbishop
                  > Chrysostomos II, who it is no secret is the Synod
                  > Esphigmenou is in communion with) for these monks to
                  > reside, but it would be a shame to see the community
                  > disbanded and divided over this, in my opinion.

                  JRS: If it does come to that (the monastic brotherhood being driven out of Esphigmenou),
                  then it would be possible, rather than scattering the monks in various places, to start a
                  "New Esphigmenou" monastery elsewhere.

                  When the Valaam monastery, which had been in Finland, was overrun by the USSR, the
                  monks withdrew further into Finland and formed "New Valaamo" there.

                  As for what course the monks should follow, my own view is that both the Phanar and the
                  Esphigmenou brotherhood are (at least partly) in the wrong.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Miller
                  My reaction: Well, Fr John, I didn t hear anyone ask your opinion, but since you brought it up, how is it your business anyway? Patr Bart will do what he will
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
                    My reaction: Well, Fr John, I didn't hear anyone ask your
                    opinion, but since you brought it up, how is it your business
                    anyway? Patr Bart will do what he will do, and the Esphigmenou
                    monks will do what they will do, and they all almost certainly
                    will not ask for your solution, and may God have Mercy on them
                    all.

                    Yes, it would appeat that a tragedy is in the making, but we do
                    count on God's mercy in such cases, don't we?

                    Modernist that you have become, if indeed you were ever anything
                    else, your sympathies logically belong on the side of the Patr
                    Bart.

                    [This being a message he won't actually hear from me.]

                    FrJ

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                    To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:16 AM
                    Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried
                    for heresy in secular court


                    > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Anastasios Dustin Hudson
                    > <anastasios0513@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> Of course, should Esphigmenou be disbanded, I am sure
                    >> we will find places in our monastic institutions (i.e.
                    >> in the Greek Old Calendarist Church, under Archbishop
                    >> Chrysostomos II, who it is no secret is the Synod
                    >> Esphigmenou is in communion with) for these monks to
                    >> reside, but it would be a shame to see the community
                    >> disbanded and divided over this, in my opinion.
                    >
                    > JRS: If it does come to that (the monastic brotherhood being
                    > driven out of Esphigmenou),
                    > then it would be possible, rather than scattering the monks in
                    > various places, to start a
                    > "New Esphigmenou" monastery elsewhere.
                    >
                    > When the Valaam monastery, which had been in Finland, was
                    > overrun by the USSR, the
                    > monks withdrew further into Finland and formed "New Valaamo"
                    > there.
                    >
                    > As for what course the monks should follow, my own view is that
                    > both the Phanar and the
                    > Esphigmenou brotherhood are (at least partly) in the wrong.
                    >
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... JRS: I suppose I could say the same to you: whoever you are. However, when subjects are posted on these lists, it is understood that members can comment on
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Miller" <rsjmil@...> wrote:

                      > My reaction: Well, Fr John, I didn't hear anyone ask your
                      > opinion, but since you brought it up, how is it your business
                      > anyway?

                      JRS: I suppose I could say the same to you: whoever you are.

                      However, when subjects are posted on these lists, it is understood that members can
                      comment on them.

                      That's what the lists are for, at least in theory.

                      > Modernist that you have become, if indeed you were ever anything
                      > else, your sympathies logically belong on the side of the Patr
                      > Bart.
                      > [This being a message he won't actually hear from me.]

                      JRS; I am hardly a "modernist" (although how do you define that term?), and my sympathies
                      do not lie with Patriarch B.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
                    • Miller
                      Forgive me, I had no business commenting as I did. ... From: Fr. John R. Shaw To: Sent: Thursday,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 17, 2006
                        Forgive me, I had no business commenting as I did.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                        To: <orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 1:17 PM
                        Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: Fw: 105 Orthodox Monks to be tried
                        for heresy in secular court


                        > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Miller" <rsjmil@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        >> My reaction: Well, Fr John, I didn't hear anyone ask your
                        >> opinion, but since you brought it up, how is it your business
                        >> anyway?
                        >
                        > JRS: I suppose I could say the same to you: whoever you are.
                        >
                        > However, when subjects are posted on these lists, it is
                        > understood that members can
                        > comment on them.
                        >
                        > That's what the lists are for, at least in theory.
                        >
                        >> Modernist that you have become, if indeed you were ever
                        >> anything
                        >> else, your sympathies logically belong on the side of the Patr
                        >> Bart.
                        >> [This being a message he won't actually hear from me.]
                        >
                        > JRS; I am hardly a "modernist" (although how do you define that
                        > term?), and my sympathies
                        > do not lie with Patriarch B.
                        >
                        > In Christ
                        > Fr. John R. Shaw
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Archives located at http://www.egroups.com/group/orthodox-synod
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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