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Re: [orthodox-synod] ROCOR and SCOBA

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  • Philip Silouan Thompson
    ... Father, bless! Thanks for the clarification; I must have misunderstood. Speaking only for myself of course, I do still wonder if ROCOR s hypothetical
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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      Father Jonathan Ivanoff wrote:
      > Reader Silouan said:
      > <<Meanwhile SCOBA will still be an uncanonical synod of competing bishops of
      > overlapping dioceses.>>
      >
      > Silouan: SCOBA has never, ever, claimed to be a "synod" of any kind.

      Father, bless! Thanks for the clarification; I must have misunderstood.

      Speaking only for myself of course, I do still wonder if ROCOR's
      hypothetical involvement in SCOBA wouldn't fly in the face of the canons.

      When the canons say one territory should have one bishop, a *standing
      council* of competing bishops of the same territories sounds from here
      more like a perpetuation of the problem than a solution. If we all agree
      the North American situation of overlapping dioceses is uncanonical,
      then I'd be surprised if our hierarchs joined in that standing council -
      wouldn't that further legitimize and perpetuate the uncanonical situation?

      All my own less-than-humble opinion, and corrections appreciated.

      I've been told (though I haven't got anything in writing) that back in
      1960 ROCOR was invited at SCOBA's founding to be a member, but ROCOR's
      hierarchs declined. Can anyone confirm that account or or put it to rest?

      In Christ,

      Silouan Thompson
      Walla Walla, Washington
    • kseniya k
      what is ROCOR, what is SCOBA? can someone explain it to me? Oksana Klimparskaya ... JRS: For many years, Fr. Paul Schneirla was the secretary of SCOBA. He told
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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        what is ROCOR, what is SCOBA? can someone explain it to me?
        Oksana Klimparskaya

        "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Ivanoff" <frjonathan@...> wrote:

        >The MP has never been in SCOBA, even
        > in the '60's, if I remember my history, and has pointedly not been in SCOBA
        > since the autocephaly given to the OCA, for exactly that reason (i.e., the
        > OCA's - as her daughter church - membership and participation in SCOBA).

        JRS: For many years, Fr. Paul Schneirla was the secretary of SCOBA. He told me that the MP
        used to be a SCOBA member, but that he had persuaded them they should withdraw after
        the autocephaly agreement.

        ROCOR also was represented (by Fr. George Grabbe) at the first SCOBA meeting, but did
        not join because the Moscow Patriarchate was also there.

        I do not see SCOBA as anything but a sort of "clergy association" for Bishops. But I believe
        that ROCOR would only gain by returning to SCOBA membership.

        For one thing, non-membership has been interpreted in some circles as making ROCOR
        "uncanonical". This has, in the past, led to some unpleasant situations.

        Second, if neither ROCOR nor the Moscow Patriarchate is represented in SCOBA, then a
        significant part of the Orthodox community in this country has no voice there.

        That, too, has led to some unpleasant results. A decade or so ago, there was a proposed
        "common liturgy translation" sent out by SCOBA, with highly controversial cahnges, not
        just in the translation, but in the actual content (e.g. suppression of the exclamation
        "Thine Own of Thine Own...").

        The conservative voice of the Russian Church ought to be heard in SCOBA. That is not the
        same as the voice of the OCA.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw






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      • Archpriest David Moser
        ... Dear Father, Your comment about how time flies is quite appropriate here since I recall meeting you at a pastoral conference of the midwest diocese of
        Message 3 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Anthony Nelson"
          <fr.anthony@...> wrote:
          >
          > That's why I left the AA over
          > 10 years ago:

          Dear Father,

          Your comment about how time flies is quite appropriate here since I
          recall meeting you at a pastoral conference of the midwest diocese of
          ROCOR about 20 years ago (I was still a deacon then and I just
          celebrateed my 18th anniversary of the priesthood) - so its be at
          least twice ten years. May the years continue to fly as easily for you
          in the future - Many years dear father.

          A/pr David Moser
        • Fr. Anastasy
          STANDING CONFERENCE of Canonical was added in recent years! ORTHODOX Anyone remember
          Message 4 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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            STANDING
            CONFERENCE of >>>>>> "Canonical" was added in "recent" years!
            ORTHODOX Anyone remember in what year & why it was added?
            BISHOPS in The addition makes it SCCOBA (which was never changed!)
            AMERICA



            For what it is worth!

            Much love in Christ,
            Fr. Anastasy

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          • Jonathan Ivanoff
            Archpriest David Moser moserd@spro.net wrote:
            Message 5 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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              "Archpriest David Moser" moserd@... wrote:

              <<Dear Father, that is being taken care of in the current round of talks
              between ROCOR and the MP - this situation is well on its way to resolution.
              The status of those parishes in Russia was one of the problem areas that
              needed to be clarified before any official agreement could be reached. The
              news from the joint committees is that such an agreement has indeed already
              been reached and now awaits final acceptance by the respective Synods of the
              MP and ROCOR. In addition, the establishment of dioceses in Russia has
              already been publicly acknowledged as an error by ROCOR hierarchs.>>

              Dear Father David:

              Thank you so kindly for this clarification. I am glad to hear of it, and
              wish the MP and ROCOR all the best in this upcoming work. Thank you again.

              In Christ,
              Fr. Jonathan Ivanoff+
            • Jonathan Ivanoff
              Recently, Reader Silouan wrote:
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                Recently, Reader Silouan wrote:

                <<Father, bless! Thanks for the clarification; I must have misunderstood.
                Speaking only for myself of course, I do still wonder if ROCOR's
                hypothetical involvement in SCOBA wouldn't fly in the face of the canons.
                When the canons say one territory should have one bishop, a *standing
                council* of competing bishops of the same territories sounds from here more
                like a perpetuation of the problem than a solution. If we all agree the
                North American situation of overlapping dioceses is uncanonical,
                then I'd be surprised if our hierarchs joined in that standing council -
                wouldn't that further legitimize and perpetuate the uncanonical situation?

                Silouan: The blessing of the Lord be with you! I think we may get hung up a
                little too much on the word "council" here; after all, the "C" in SCOBA
                stands for Conference, not "Council." SCOBA does serve a useful function in
                that it permits face-to-face meetings of the representative hierarchs of the
                member jurisdictions about twice a year, and I have to believe that this can
                only be positive for Orthodoxy here in America. I'm not sure if anything
                like this exists anywhere else, such as Europe or Australia (talk about
                competing and overlapping jurisdictions! It's not only here, after all).
                It breaks down the walls anonimity puts up, and allows us to hear and to
                understand where the "other" is coming from, and so forth. At least here
                they can get together and talk, so to the degree that it facilitates such
                communication is perhaps a good thing.

                <<I've been told (though I haven't got anything in writing) that back in
                1960 ROCOR was invited at SCOBA's founding to be a member, but ROCOR's
                hierarchs declined. Can anyone confirm that account or or put it to rest?>>

                Others better informed on this subject have recently answered it, so now we
                both know! God bless you!

                In Christ,
                Fr. Jonathan Ivanoff
              • Fr. John R. Shaw
                ... JRS: ROCOR was represented (by Fr. George Grabbe) at the first SCOBA meeting, but did not join because the Moscow Patriarchate was also there. I do not see
                Message 7 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Philip Silouan Thompson <himself@...> wrote:

                  > I've been told (though I haven't got anything in writing) that back in
                  > 1960 ROCOR was invited at SCOBA's founding to be a member, but ROCOR's
                  > hierarchs declined. Can anyone confirm that account or or put it to rest?

                  JRS: ROCOR was represented (by Fr. George Grabbe) at the first SCOBA meeting,
                  but did
                  not join because the Moscow Patriarchate was also there.

                  I do not see SCOBA as anything but a sort of "clergy association" for Bishops.
                  But I believe
                  that ROCOR would only gain by returning to SCOBA membership.

                  Since ROCOR was in full communion with most of the other Orthodox jurisdictions in this
                  country in the past, and has always been in communion with the Serbian Church, there has
                  never been an issue over bishops with overlapping or parallel sees.

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw
                • Fr. John R. Shaw
                  ... JRS: The word canonical was certainly there already as of Palm Sunday, 1964. I remember distinctly a conversation with the present Bishop Daniel of Erie
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Anastasy" <fr_anastasy@...> wrote:

                    > "Canonical" was added in "recent" years!
                    > Anyone remember in what year & why it was added?

                    JRS: The word "canonical" was certainly there already as of Palm Sunday, 1964.
                    I remember distinctly a conversation with the present Bishop Daniel of Erie on that day.

                    We discussed the presence of that word "canonical" in SCOBA's title. Not being in SCOBA
                    did not make us "uncanonical".

                    In Christ
                    Fr. John R. Shaw
                  • Gilbert Gamboa
                    Forgive me for this post, it probally will not make the ranks of you who have been on this list for years and are more worthy then I a wretched sinner, but Im
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                      Forgive me for this post, it probally will not make the ranks of you who have been on this list for years and are more worthy then I a wretched sinner, but Im sure it will be cut and delivered back to me, but I ll try anyway;
                      as a newly illumined Orthodox Christian of the Russian Church Abroad I havent a clue what you mean by Un-Canonical, and I am curious by what calculations or writings is that being determined ? I mean Canonical is the Apostolic succesion of both Body and soul, meaning The Laying of Hands(Bishop) and the True Spirit ( Holy Spirit present and also church and private Prayer life) and both to help us die to this world and seek the kingdom of Heaven...is this atleast somewhat true? please corect me if Im wrong...
                      There should never enter the mind a question of whether Our Holy Synod is Canonical or not...in fact we should never even judge those that arent cononical, but pray that God have mercy on them and preserve them long enough to come back to the Church...
                      and for those that Judge our God Preserved Bishops for not being part of scoba, need I remind you that A Bishops job is to guide those that he has been entrusted too, not the whole world- That is GOD`s JOB, and quite frankily HE is doing a good job and doesnt need our help, somehow we have taken upon ourselves to save the whole world, even non-Believers- This would not be a bad situation , if along the way many, many Christ-loving Faithful wouldnt be left behind and somethimes forgotten...
                      a Bishops job is his flock, Ministering and helping us the sinners to save our souls...
                      if we in turn live a Christ-Like life as an Orthodox Christian then many will be saved around us, and our Bishops will not have to endure the worldlyness that comes with say ecumenism with non believers and heretics...therefore Scoba would be like some kind of a fraternity that the Latin church is full of, i mean the whole purpose is to save souls, then what are the numbers of souls being saved by scoba? and why cant this saving of sould be done as a Orthodox Christian alone in your own area?
                      May God preserve our Bishops for tending to us their flock and not be governed by outside influences of the world...after all it was that same outside influence that influenced Adam and Eve...
                      in CHRIST,
                      spiridon





                      "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. Anastasy" <fr_anastasy@...> wrote:

                      > "Canonical" was added in "recent" years!
                      > Anyone remember in what year & why it was added?

                      JRS: The word "canonical" was certainly there already as of Palm Sunday, 1964.
                      I remember distinctly a conversation with the present Bishop Daniel of Erie on that day.

                      We discussed the presence of that word "canonical" in SCOBA's title. Not being in SCOBA
                      did not make us "uncanonical".

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw






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                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... JRS: To begin with, nobody is in total compliance with all the Canons: it s impossible. But some are more uncanonical than others . In Christ Fr. John R.
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gilbert Gamboa <text164@...> wrote:

                        > I havent a clue what you mean by Un-Canonical...

                        JRS: To begin with, nobody is in total compliance with all the Canons: it's impossible.

                        But some are "more uncanonical than others".

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
                      • Joanne Gadzinski
                        Fr. John wrote: JRS: To begin with, nobody is in total compliance with all the Canons: it s impossible. Then what are the Canons good for? Why make them if
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                          Fr. John wrote:

                          JRS: To begin with, nobody is in total compliance with all the Canons: it's
                          impossible.

                          Then what are the Canons good for? Why make them if they're not followed?
                          Do you have an example?

                          Joanna



                          From: "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                          Reply-To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and SCOBA
                          Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2006 20:58:50 -0000


                          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Gilbert Gamboa <text164@...> wrote:

                          >I havent a clue what you mean by Un-Canonical...

                          JRS: To begin with, nobody is in total compliance with all the Canons: it's
                          impossible.

                          But some are "more uncanonical than others".

                          In Christ
                          Fr. John R. Shaw




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                        • Aleksandr Andreev
                          Out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for removing the exclamation Thine Own of Thine Own and what, if anything, was proposed instead of it? +Aleks ...
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 8, 2006
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                            Out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for removing the exclamation
                            "Thine Own of Thine Own" and what, if anything, was proposed instead of it?

                            +Aleks

                            ---------------
                            Aleksandr Andreev
                            Duke University
                            aleksandr.andreev@...
                            http://www.duke.edu/~aa63/
                          • Fr. John R. Shaw
                            ... JRS: They treated Thine Own of Thine Own as merely a phrase in the text, along with the other phrases, and not as an exclamation. That proposed Liturgy
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 9, 2006
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                              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Aleksandr Andreev <aleksandr.andreev@...>
                              wrote:

                              > Out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for removing the exclamation
                              > "Thine Own of Thine Own" and what, if anything, was proposed instead of it?

                              JRS: They treated "Thine Own of Thine Own" as merely a phrase in the text, along with the
                              other phrases, and not as an exclamation. That proposed Liturgy text also eliminated the
                              elevation of the Holy Gifts by the priest or deacon at these words.

                              In Christ
                              Fr. John R. Shaw
                            • Fr. John R. Shaw
                              ... JRS: I think you miss the point. We are all sinners, too; but while some try not to sin, others exult in sinning. We are all violators of some canons; but
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 9, 2006
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                                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Joanne Gadzinski" <joasia9@...> wrote:

                                > Then what are the Canons good for? Why make them if they're not followed?
                                > Do you have an example?

                                JRS: I think you miss the point.

                                We are all sinners, too; but while some try not to sin, others exult in sinning.

                                We are all violators of some canons; but while some try to avoid uncanonical activity,
                                others trample the canons.

                                In Christ
                                Fr. John R. Shaw
                              • frraphver
                                What s striking though is how rarely such liturgical projects are ever actually ever put into practice. Most of the time they re perceived as originating from
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 9, 2006
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                                  What's striking though is how rarely such liturgical projects are ever
                                  actually ever put into practice.

                                  Most of the time they're perceived as originating from commitees and
                                  elites rather than from within the Church through the diocesan
                                  bishops. So when they arrive at the parish doorstep they inevitably
                                  have a foreign feel and are promptly put into the recyle bin.

                                  In Christ- Fr Raphael Vereshack


                                  -- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Aleksandr Andreev
                                  <aleksandr.andreev@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Out of curiosity, what was the reasoning for removing the exclamation
                                  > > "Thine Own of Thine Own" and what, if anything, was proposed
                                  instead of it?
                                  >
                                  > JRS: They treated "Thine Own of Thine Own" as merely a phrase in the
                                  text, along with the
                                  > other phrases, and not as an exclamation. That proposed Liturgy text
                                  also eliminated the
                                  > elevation of the Holy Gifts by the priest or deacon at these words.
                                  >
                                  > In Christ
                                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                                  >
                                • Elias G Gorsky
                                  ROCOR - Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia SCOBA - Standing Conference of [canonical] Orthodox Bishops in America Archpriest Ilya Gorsky ... From:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 9, 2006
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                                    ROCOR - Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
                                    SCOBA - Standing Conference of [canonical] Orthodox Bishops in America

                                    Archpriest Ilya Gorsky

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: kseniya k [mailto:city_girl_in_jeans@...]
                                    Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 12:55 PM
                                    To: orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: ROCOR and SCOBA

                                    what is ROCOR, what is SCOBA? can someone explain it to me?
                                    Oksana Klimparskaya

                                    "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Ivanoff"
                                    <frjonathan@...> wrote:

                                    >The MP has never been in SCOBA, even
                                    > in the '60's, if I remember my history, and has pointedly not been in
                                    SCOBA
                                    > since the autocephaly given to the OCA, for exactly that reason (i.e., the

                                    > OCA's - as her daughter church - membership and participation in SCOBA).

                                    JRS: For many years, Fr. Paul Schneirla was the secretary of SCOBA. He told
                                    me that the MP
                                    used to be a SCOBA member, but that he had persuaded them they should
                                    withdraw after
                                    the autocephaly agreement.

                                    ROCOR also was represented (by Fr. George Grabbe) at the first SCOBA
                                    meeting, but did
                                    not join because the Moscow Patriarchate was also there.

                                    I do not see SCOBA as anything but a sort of "clergy association" for
                                    Bishops. But I believe
                                    that ROCOR would only gain by returning to SCOBA membership.

                                    For one thing, non-membership has been interpreted in some circles as making
                                    ROCOR
                                    "uncanonical". This has, in the past, led to some unpleasant situations.

                                    Second, if neither ROCOR nor the Moscow Patriarchate is represented in
                                    SCOBA, then a
                                    significant part of the Orthodox community in this country has no voice
                                    there.

                                    That, too, has led to some unpleasant results. A decade or so ago, there was
                                    a proposed
                                    "common liturgy translation" sent out by SCOBA, with highly controversial
                                    cahnges, not
                                    just in the translation, but in the actual content (e.g. suppression of the
                                    exclamation
                                    "Thine Own of Thine Own...").

                                    The conservative voice of the Russian Church ought to be heard in SCOBA.
                                    That is not the
                                    same as the voice of the OCA.

                                    In Christ
                                    Fr. John R. Shaw






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                                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                                    ... JRS: People do not go to church to see an experiment: they go to church to pray. So regular churchgoers prefer the familiar forms of worship that they have
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 9, 2006
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                                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "frraphver" <frraphver@...> wrote:

                                      > What's striking though is how rarely such liturgical projects are ever
                                      > actually ever put into practice.

                                      JRS: People do not go to church to see an experiment: they go to church to pray.

                                      So regular churchgoers prefer the familiar forms of worship that they have come to love.

                                      In Christ
                                      Fr. John R. Shaw
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