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Re: [orthodox-synod] Re: Meletios Metaksakis, Metropolitan, Archbishop, Pope and unfortunate Patriarch

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  • Basil Yakimov
    Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips site - there was no mention of pravoslavie.ru - so please do not make your own assumptions when they
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 3, 2006
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      Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site - there was no
      mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
      do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....




      "Fr. John R.
      Shaw"
      <vrevjrs@execpc.c To
      om> orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
      Sent by: cc
      orthodox-synod@ya
      hoogroups.com Subject
      [orthodox-synod] Re: Meletios
      Metaksakis, Metropolitan,
      03/07/2006 10:36 Archbishop, Pope and unfortunate
      PM Patriarch


      Please respond to
      orthodox-synod@ya
      hoogroups.com






      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

      > July 1935. Zurich, Switzerland. After six difficult days in the throes of
      > death, there dies a man whose personality was one of the most scandalous
      in
      > the two-thousand year history of the Orthodox Church. ...

      > Priest Srboliub Miletich
      >
      > Translated by Fr Andrew
      >
      > 14/27 June 2006
      > St Methodius, Patriarch of Constantinople

      JRS: For some reason, Fr. Basil Yakimov did not mention that this article
      was translated
      from "pravoslavie.ru".

      I was impressed that the Moscow Patriarchate's site had carried this
      strongly critical
      account of the introduction of the new calendar.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Fr. John R. Shaw
      ... JRS: What assumptions did I make? I said that for some reason , you had not mentioned that the Russian original was (and still is) at pravoslavie.ru .
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 3, 2006
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        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

        > Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site - there was no
        > mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
        > do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....

        JRS: What "assumptions" did I make?

        I said that "for some reason", you had not mentioned that the Russian original was (and
        still is) at "pravoslavie.ru".

        To see it, you have to scroll down fairly far, because new articles are being put up all the
        time. It has a photo of the late Meletios Metaksakis.

        I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most part we only hear such
        things from those who have their own axe to grind, their own positions to support. The
        Moscow Patriarchate does not need to discredit the new calendarists, which makes this
        article the more convincing.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • myhrr101
        ... there was no mention of pravoslavie.ru - so please ... Russian original was (and still is) at pravoslavie.ru . ... ? this is getting silly..because it
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 4, 2006
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          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
          <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@>
          wrote:
          >
          > > Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site -
          there was no mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
          > > do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....
          >
          > JRS: What "assumptions" did I make?
          >
          > I said that "for some reason", you had not mentioned that the
          Russian original was (and still is) at "pravoslavie.ru".
          >

          ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
          piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
          withholding information which he might or might not have because you
          know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
          on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?





          > To see it, you have to scroll down fairly far, because new
          articles are being put up all the
          > time. It has a photo of the late Meletios Metaksakis.
          >
          > I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most
          part we only hear such things from those who have their own axe to
          grind, their own positions to support. The Moscow Patriarchate does
          not need to discredit the new calendarists, which makes this article
          the more convincing.
          >
          > In Christ
          > Fr. John R. Shaw
          >


          This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
          needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
          everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch. More
          ammunition to the MP's arsenal in the fight for its claim to be the
          Third Rome, arguing the irrelevancy of the EP in today's global
          Orthodox consciousness which honour it got because of its importance
          as the new capital of the Empire, after all, isn't the MP Church now
          the largest and therefore the most important?

          Anything on Metaxakis can be as useful to the MP as it is to the old
          calendarists, if not more so as the stakes are higher for the MP,
          and there's certainly no shortage of material!

          http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/afonsky-constantinople.html

          Other OCA pages carry information about Metaxakis as it's in their
          interest to show re the US that he began by attempting to create a
          Greek Church controlled autonomous entity out of the Greek Orthodox
          in dispersion while he was associated with this Church and then
          tried grabbing it all for the EP when he became patriarch in
          Constantinople by claiming that those in diaspora always belonged to
          the EP.

          That's when the Greek churches in Britain came under the EP.

          Myrrh
        • Julio VĂ¡zquez
          Dear List, This article was originally written by Priest (now Protopriest) Srboljub Miletic in Serbian, and as noted in pravoslavie.ru, it was translated into
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 5, 2006
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            Dear List,

            This article was originally written by Priest (now Protopriest)
            Srboljub Miletic in Serbian, and as noted in pravoslavie.ru, it was
            translated into Russian by Hierodeacon Ignatij (Shestakov). The
            original Serbian text, which has been available online for a few years
            now, may be accessed at the following address:

            <http://www.svetosavlje.org/biblioteka/Istorija/meletios.htm>

            I hope this is helpful.

            Julio Vazquez
            San Juan, Puerto Rico
          • Fr. John R. Shaw
            ... JRS: I did not make any accusations. But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an indictment of Meletios
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
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              --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

              > ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
              > piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
              > withholding information which he might or might not have because you
              > know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
              > on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?

              JRS: I did not make any accusations.

              But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an
              indictment of Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar to appear on a Moscow
              Patriarchate site.

              If you remove the article from its Patriarchal site, it loses part of its effect. It would not
              have been unusual at all to find it in "Orthodox Life" or in something published by the
              Greek OC's.

              > This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
              > needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
              > everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch.

              JRS: Discrediting a deposed Meletios Metaxakis does not per se discredit Pat. Bartholomew
              today. I am afraid Patriarch Bartholomew has done more of that himself, than any article
              about long ago events could achieve.

              Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who you are. You could even
              be Patriarch Bartholomew...

              In Christ
              Fr. John R. Shaw
            • michael nikitin
              Fr.John thinks it unusual for the MP to indict Meletios Metaxakis introduction of the new calendar, because the MP has new calendar parishes. Michael N ...
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
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                Fr.John thinks it unusual for the MP to indict Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar, because the MP has new calendar parishes.

                Michael N


                "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                > ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
                > piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
                > withholding information which he might or might not have because you
                > know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
                > on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?

                JRS: I did not make any accusations.

                But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an
                indictment of Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar to appear on a Moscow
                Patriarchate site.

                If you remove the article from its Patriarchal site, it loses part of its effect. It would not
                have been unusual at all to find it in "Orthodox Life" or in something published by the
                Greek OC's.

                > This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
                > needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
                > everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch.

                JRS: Discrediting a deposed Meletios Metaxakis does not per se discredit Pat. Bartholomew
                today. I am afraid Patriarch Bartholomew has done more of that himself, than any article
                about long ago events could achieve.

                Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who you are. You could even
                be Patriarch Bartholomew...

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw






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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • myhrr101
                ... part we only hear such ... positions to support. The ... calendarists, which makes this ... It s a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
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                  --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                  <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                  >

                  > I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most
                  part we only hear such
                  > things from those who have their own axe to grind, their own
                  positions to support. The
                  > Moscow Patriarchate does not need to discredit the new
                  calendarists, which makes this
                  > article the more convincing.
                  >
                  > In Christ
                  > Fr. John R. Shaw
                  >


                  It's a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR have
                  done so little research on The Moscow Patriarchate, which name by
                  the way is synonymous with the Russian Orthodox Church according to
                  its own Statutes.

                  The Moscow Patriarchate created by Stalin has every interest in
                  publishing the metaxian history as it bolsters its own claim to
                  Third Rome status on the world stage. Of course it can't push the
                  uncanonical nature of Metaxakis' rise to power too far, but once it
                  owns all Russian Orthodox worth bothering with it will be better
                  able to convince the world to ignore its own beginnings. After all,
                  everyone now accepts the MP as the Mother Church, don't they?

                  Well, when you all commemorate your Great Lord Alexei II or his
                  successor there will still be some wondering how so many left
                  Christ's ecclesiology for the system He ruled against.


                  Myrrh

                  http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/15.aspx

                  I.2. The Self-governing Churches, Exarchates, Dioceses, Synodal
                  departments, Deaneries, Parishes, Monasteries, Brotherhoods,
                  Sisterhoods, Theological educational institutions, Missions,
                  Representations and Church representations (hereinafter
                  called `canonical units'), which constitute the Russian Orthodox
                  Church, canonically comprise the Moscow Patriarchate.

                  `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                  Orthodox Church.


                  IV.3. The name of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia shall be
                  mentioned during the divine services in all churches of the Russian
                  Orthodox Church with the following wording: `For our Great Lord and
                  Father (name), His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia'.
                  `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                  Orthodox Church.
                • myhrr101
                  ... you are. You could even ... I can assure you I am no one of any position at all, just yer bog standard member of Christ s Jurisdiction wandering through
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
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                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                    <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                    >




                    >
                    > Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who
                    you are. You could even
                    > be Patriarch Bartholomew...
                    >
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    >


                    I can assure you I am no one of any position at all, just yer bog
                    standard member of Christ's Jurisdiction wandering through the
                    Orthodox communities in cyberspace, in these interesting times...

                    Myrrh
                  • Fr. John R. Shaw
                    ... JRS: A source of constant wonder to me: that anonymous posters on the internet, who refuse to identify themselves but criticize others, expect to be taken
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
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                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                      > It's a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR have
                      > done so little research on The Moscow Patriarchate...

                      JRS: A source of constant wonder to me: that anonymous posters on the internet, who
                      refuse to identify themselves but criticize others, expect to be taken seriously.

                      In Christ
                      Fr. John R. Shaw
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