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Re: Meletios Metaksakis, Metropolitan, Archbishop, Pope and unfortunate Patriarch

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  • Fr. John R. Shaw
    ... JRS: For some reason, Fr. Basil Yakimov did not mention that this article was translated from pravoslavie.ru . I was impressed that the Moscow
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 3, 2006
      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

      > July 1935. Zurich, Switzerland. After six difficult days in the throes of
      > death, there dies a man whose personality was one of the most scandalous in
      > the two-thousand year history of the Orthodox Church. ...

      > Priest Srboliub Miletich
      >
      > Translated by Fr Andrew
      >
      > 14/27 June 2006
      > St Methodius, Patriarch of Constantinople

      JRS: For some reason, Fr. Basil Yakimov did not mention that this article was translated
      from "pravoslavie.ru".

      I was impressed that the Moscow Patriarchate's site had carried this strongly critical
      account of the introduction of the new calendar.

      In Christ
      Fr. John R. Shaw
    • Basil Yakimov
      Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips site - there was no mention of pravoslavie.ru - so please do not make your own assumptions when they
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 3, 2006
        Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site - there was no
        mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
        do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....




        "Fr. John R.
        Shaw"
        <vrevjrs@execpc.c To
        om> orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com
        Sent by: cc
        orthodox-synod@ya
        hoogroups.com Subject
        [orthodox-synod] Re: Meletios
        Metaksakis, Metropolitan,
        03/07/2006 10:36 Archbishop, Pope and unfortunate
        PM Patriarch


        Please respond to
        orthodox-synod@ya
        hoogroups.com






        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

        > July 1935. Zurich, Switzerland. After six difficult days in the throes of
        > death, there dies a man whose personality was one of the most scandalous
        in
        > the two-thousand year history of the Orthodox Church. ...

        > Priest Srboliub Miletich
        >
        > Translated by Fr Andrew
        >
        > 14/27 June 2006
        > St Methodius, Patriarch of Constantinople

        JRS: For some reason, Fr. Basil Yakimov did not mention that this article
        was translated
        from "pravoslavie.ru".

        I was impressed that the Moscow Patriarchate's site had carried this
        strongly critical
        account of the introduction of the new calendar.

        In Christ
        Fr. John R. Shaw
      • Fr. John R. Shaw
        ... JRS: What assumptions did I make? I said that for some reason , you had not mentioned that the Russian original was (and still is) at pravoslavie.ru .
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 3, 2006
          --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@...> wrote:

          > Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site - there was no
          > mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
          > do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....

          JRS: What "assumptions" did I make?

          I said that "for some reason", you had not mentioned that the Russian original was (and
          still is) at "pravoslavie.ru".

          To see it, you have to scroll down fairly far, because new articles are being put up all the
          time. It has a photo of the late Meletios Metaksakis.

          I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most part we only hear such
          things from those who have their own axe to grind, their own positions to support. The
          Moscow Patriarchate does not need to discredit the new calendarists, which makes this
          article the more convincing.

          In Christ
          Fr. John R. Shaw
        • myhrr101
          ... there was no mention of pravoslavie.ru - so please ... Russian original was (and still is) at pravoslavie.ru . ... ? this is getting silly..because it
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 4, 2006
            --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
            <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, Basil Yakimov <byakimov@>
            wrote:
            >
            > > Father John - it was taken from Father Andrew Phillips' site -
            there was no mention of "pravoslavie.ru"- so please
            > > do not make your own assumptions when they are not required....
            >
            > JRS: What "assumptions" did I make?
            >
            > I said that "for some reason", you had not mentioned that the
            Russian original was (and still is) at "pravoslavie.ru".
            >

            ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
            piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
            withholding information which he might or might not have because you
            know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
            on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?





            > To see it, you have to scroll down fairly far, because new
            articles are being put up all the
            > time. It has a photo of the late Meletios Metaksakis.
            >
            > I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most
            part we only hear such things from those who have their own axe to
            grind, their own positions to support. The Moscow Patriarchate does
            not need to discredit the new calendarists, which makes this article
            the more convincing.
            >
            > In Christ
            > Fr. John R. Shaw
            >


            This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
            needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
            everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch. More
            ammunition to the MP's arsenal in the fight for its claim to be the
            Third Rome, arguing the irrelevancy of the EP in today's global
            Orthodox consciousness which honour it got because of its importance
            as the new capital of the Empire, after all, isn't the MP Church now
            the largest and therefore the most important?

            Anything on Metaxakis can be as useful to the MP as it is to the old
            calendarists, if not more so as the stakes are higher for the MP,
            and there's certainly no shortage of material!

            http://www.holy-trinity.org/ecclesiology/afonsky-constantinople.html

            Other OCA pages carry information about Metaxakis as it's in their
            interest to show re the US that he began by attempting to create a
            Greek Church controlled autonomous entity out of the Greek Orthodox
            in dispersion while he was associated with this Church and then
            tried grabbing it all for the EP when he became patriarch in
            Constantinople by claiming that those in diaspora always belonged to
            the EP.

            That's when the Greek churches in Britain came under the EP.

            Myrrh
          • Julio Vázquez
            Dear List, This article was originally written by Priest (now Protopriest) Srboljub Miletic in Serbian, and as noted in pravoslavie.ru, it was translated into
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 5, 2006
              Dear List,

              This article was originally written by Priest (now Protopriest)
              Srboljub Miletic in Serbian, and as noted in pravoslavie.ru, it was
              translated into Russian by Hierodeacon Ignatij (Shestakov). The
              original Serbian text, which has been available online for a few years
              now, may be accessed at the following address:

              <http://www.svetosavlje.org/biblioteka/Istorija/meletios.htm>

              I hope this is helpful.

              Julio Vazquez
              San Juan, Puerto Rico
            • Fr. John R. Shaw
              ... JRS: I did not make any accusations. But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an indictment of Meletios
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
                --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                > ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
                > piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
                > withholding information which he might or might not have because you
                > know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
                > on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?

                JRS: I did not make any accusations.

                But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an
                indictment of Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar to appear on a Moscow
                Patriarchate site.

                If you remove the article from its Patriarchal site, it loses part of its effect. It would not
                have been unusual at all to find it in "Orthodox Life" or in something published by the
                Greek OC's.

                > This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
                > needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
                > everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch.

                JRS: Discrediting a deposed Meletios Metaxakis does not per se discredit Pat. Bartholomew
                today. I am afraid Patriarch Bartholomew has done more of that himself, than any article
                about long ago events could achieve.

                Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who you are. You could even
                be Patriarch Bartholomew...

                In Christ
                Fr. John R. Shaw
              • michael nikitin
                Fr.John thinks it unusual for the MP to indict Meletios Metaxakis introduction of the new calendar, because the MP has new calendar parishes. Michael N ...
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
                  Fr.John thinks it unusual for the MP to indict Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar, because the MP has new calendar parishes.

                  Michael N


                  "Fr. John R. Shaw" <vrevjrs@...> wrote: --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                  > ? this is getting silly..because it wasn't mentioned on the site the
                  > piece was taken from you jump to the conclusion that he is
                  > withholding information which he might or might not have because you
                  > know it's on another site in its original russian? So what if it's
                  > on the pravoslavie.ru site, did it orginate there?

                  JRS: I did not make any accusations.

                  But I had thought of translating that article myself, because it was unusual for such an
                  indictment of Meletios Metaxakis' introduction of the new calendar to appear on a Moscow
                  Patriarchate site.

                  If you remove the article from its Patriarchal site, it loses part of its effect. It would not
                  have been unusual at all to find it in "Orthodox Life" or in something published by the
                  Greek OC's.

                  > This article's inclusion on the MP site has not a lot to do with
                  > needing or not needing to discredit the new calendarists, but
                  > everything to do with discrediting the Ecumenical Patriarch.

                  JRS: Discrediting a deposed Meletios Metaxakis does not per se discredit Pat. Bartholomew
                  today. I am afraid Patriarch Bartholomew has done more of that himself, than any article
                  about long ago events could achieve.

                  Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who you are. You could even
                  be Patriarch Bartholomew...

                  In Christ
                  Fr. John R. Shaw






                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • myhrr101
                  ... part we only hear such ... positions to support. The ... calendarists, which makes this ... It s a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
                    --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                    <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                    >

                    > I had been thinking of translating it myself, because for the most
                    part we only hear such
                    > things from those who have their own axe to grind, their own
                    positions to support. The
                    > Moscow Patriarchate does not need to discredit the new
                    calendarists, which makes this
                    > article the more convincing.
                    >
                    > In Christ
                    > Fr. John R. Shaw
                    >


                    It's a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR have
                    done so little research on The Moscow Patriarchate, which name by
                    the way is synonymous with the Russian Orthodox Church according to
                    its own Statutes.

                    The Moscow Patriarchate created by Stalin has every interest in
                    publishing the metaxian history as it bolsters its own claim to
                    Third Rome status on the world stage. Of course it can't push the
                    uncanonical nature of Metaxakis' rise to power too far, but once it
                    owns all Russian Orthodox worth bothering with it will be better
                    able to convince the world to ignore its own beginnings. After all,
                    everyone now accepts the MP as the Mother Church, don't they?

                    Well, when you all commemorate your Great Lord Alexei II or his
                    successor there will still be some wondering how so many left
                    Christ's ecclesiology for the system He ruled against.


                    Myrrh

                    http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/15.aspx

                    I.2. The Self-governing Churches, Exarchates, Dioceses, Synodal
                    departments, Deaneries, Parishes, Monasteries, Brotherhoods,
                    Sisterhoods, Theological educational institutions, Missions,
                    Representations and Church representations (hereinafter
                    called `canonical units'), which constitute the Russian Orthodox
                    Church, canonically comprise the Moscow Patriarchate.

                    `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                    Orthodox Church.


                    IV.3. The name of the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia shall be
                    mentioned during the divine services in all churches of the Russian
                    Orthodox Church with the following wording: `For our Great Lord and
                    Father (name), His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia'.
                    `The Moscow Patriarchate' is another official name of the Russian
                    Orthodox Church.
                  • myhrr101
                    ... you are. You could even ... I can assure you I am no one of any position at all, just yer bog standard member of Christ s Jurisdiction wandering through
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
                      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "Fr. John R. Shaw"
                      <vrevjrs@...> wrote:
                      >




                      >
                      > Incidentally, "Myrrh" is only a nom de plume. I have no idea who
                      you are. You could even
                      > be Patriarch Bartholomew...
                      >
                      > In Christ
                      > Fr. John R. Shaw
                      >


                      I can assure you I am no one of any position at all, just yer bog
                      standard member of Christ's Jurisdiction wandering through the
                      Orthodox communities in cyberspace, in these interesting times...

                      Myrrh
                    • Fr. John R. Shaw
                      ... JRS: A source of constant wonder to me: that anonymous posters on the internet, who refuse to identify themselves but criticize others, expect to be taken
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 6, 2006
                        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, "myhrr101" <myhrr101@...> wrote:

                        > It's a source of constant wonder to me that priests of ROCOR have
                        > done so little research on The Moscow Patriarchate...

                        JRS: A source of constant wonder to me: that anonymous posters on the internet, who
                        refuse to identify themselves but criticize others, expect to be taken seriously.

                        In Christ
                        Fr. John R. Shaw
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