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Re: "Enemies of the Church" lists

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  • myhrr101
    ... And what are the instructions with that? To interfere with their human rights and freedom of concience? To imprison them for holding meetings? Gandhi said
    Message 1 of 41 , Jun 30, 2006
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      --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, michael nikitin
      <nikitinmike@...> wrote:
      > And here I thought ANATHEMAS lists the enemies of the Church.
      > Michael N

      And what are the instructions with that? To interfere with their
      human rights and freedom of concience? To imprison them for holding
      meetings? Gandhi said that everyone except Christians see that
      Christ taught ahimsa, non-violence.



      > Anna Voellmecke <anna@...> wrote:
      > At 05:00 PM 6/27/2006, you wrote:
      > >The original poster is very diplomatic. Let me state this
      bluntly: If
      > >the MP church has actually compiled such as list of persons who
      > >"enemies of the church" I do want to know about this practice. Is
      > >a tradition of the Orthodox church to keep a list of enemies?
      > Let me ask: Is it the tradition of the Church to use a motor
      > to go to church services? To use dimmer switches on electric
      > when the services call for brightening and dimming the lighting in
      > the church? To use photocopiers for choir music? To use EMAIL for
      > teaching about the Church? I think you see my point.
      > In the heterodox West, there is no central authority to be a
      > of protection for the faithful against vagante (false) clergymen
      > my ex-husband, to the spiritual detriment of many. Now that there
      > apparently such people setting up shop in Russia, there is
      > a need for some kind of response from the MP to deal with them. I
      > also recall cases here in the US where certain clergymen were
      > suspended or deposed but continued to serve *illegally*, requiring
      > the Bishops of those dioceses to issue warnings to the faithful
      > to seek ministrations from those men.
      > So "enemies lists" are definitely known in the Orthodox world. One
      > wonders why Peter is so worried. Surely he doesn't think *he*
      would be on it!
      > Anna V.
      > ---------------------------------
      > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.
      Great rates starting at 1ยข/min.
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • myhrr101
      Hello again Malcolm, my first reply to you has got lost somewhere in the system, but you didn t miss anything, just a bit rambling on your theme. Myrrh ... the
      Message 41 of 41 , Jul 6, 2006
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        Hello again Malcolm, my first reply to you has got lost somewhere in
        the system, but you didn't miss anything, just a bit rambling on
        your theme.


        --- In orthodox-synod@yahoogroups.com, malcolm robertson
        <mjriii2003@...> wrote:
        > Warm greetings to all in Christ.
        > I have been a lurker on this site for sometime now and do feel
        the urge to chime in on a few points. Your patient indulgence is
        much appreciated.
        > 1. While the clergy are suppose to hold the truth of the faith
        in themselves (Mal. 2:6-8), to be deemed worthy of double honor (1
        Tim 5:16-18; 1 Tim 5:1f) and are to instruct the lost in the way (2
        Tim 4:1-3; Tit 1:8-10; 1 Tim 4:5-7), no one should view them as
        infallible (1 Tim 4:11-13) - at least not as we do the Apostles (2
        Thess. 3:13-15; 2 Tim 3:15-17; Acts 20:27 etc.). They are men too
        and accountable to God (James 3:1).
        > 2. The face of Russia is changing. She is no longer a closed
        or isolated society repressed by a godless communist regime.
        Nevertheless, although Orthodoxy may be the recognized state
        religion MOST Russians still consult their horoscopes for daily
        guidance instead of the living God who can act (Matt 7:6-12; John
        14:13-15). Russia is becoming in this regard much like America -
        with it's attendent problems and circumstances. The publishing
        houses and individual parishes will be forced to address new,
        unheard of, and challeging issues that the world will present in
        various forms (1 John 2:18; 1 Tim 4:1-6; 2 Tim 3:1-9 etc.). But the
        Word of God abides forever.
        > 3. A benighted laity in Orthodoxy should not be the norm. It
        ofttimes is not so. The right of the laity (Christ's sheep) to
        question and form opinions is not simply a civil right afforded by
        the constituion of the United States for it's citizens but is the
        inherant right of any human being - not the least of which and
        particularly Christians (Mat 7:15-23; 1 Cor.14:20, 29; Acts 20:27-
        38; 2 Tim 2; 1 John 2 :20, 27; also cf Matthew 23). Matthew 7:1-5
        does not forbid the formation of an opinion but the self-righteous,
        hypocritical condemnation of others.
        > 4. I am sure that the phrase "Enemies of the Church list"
        conjures up recollections of godless Soviet regime propaganda lists
        and tactics that are still quite pychologically disconcerting to
        many of us. However, the Church has always notified it's flock of
        the reality and real presence of such individuals. Even so
        Patriarch Tikhon did thus. The warnings issued to Israel about the
        surrounding godless nations and their abominable practices. The
        warnings of Jesus (Matt. 7:15ff; Matt 23: John 14:6; John 10 & 15);
        Paul (Philippians 3:17-21 & 3:1-3 et al); Peter (2 Peter 2); Jude;
        and John (1 John 2:22f; 4:1-3; 2 John 1:7-10; 3 John 9f). In
        addition the early Apostolic Fathers (Papias, Polycarp, Ignatius,
        Clement) and Apologists (Justin Martyr and Irenaeus) all spoke
        aginst identified "enemies" of the Gospel. Anathemas (the first
        issued by Paul (1 Cor. 16:32) have been issued by early Church
        councils (Nicea A.D. 325) and since. The infamous heretics Simon
        Magus (Acts
        > 8), Nicolaitanes et al (Rev 2 & 3), Cerinthus (Irenaeus 3.3;
        Eusebius Hist. Eccl, 3.28; 4:14), Marcion (Tertullian, Adv. Marc).,
        the Gnostic Basilides (Eusebius, Hist Eccl, 4.7.6-8), and the
        Gnostic Valentinus (Irenaeus, Adv Haer. 1.21.4-5; Epiphanius
        > But caution and circumspection must be exercised. A wholesale
        lump summing of individuals and organizations under the
        word "Enemies" can be quite problematic if not attended with sound
        theological reasons. It is one thing to defend the faith (cf Jude
        3). It is an entire other thing to adopt and execute with the none
        spiritual weapons of the world (cf Eph. 6:10-24).
        > At any rate I just wanted to chime in. I am of Russian descent
        and Russian is my mother tongue (although because of necessity
        English has the ascendancy). The closest Russian Orthodox
        congregation is too far away to be actively involved. Consequently
        I attend Church elsewhere.
        > Because He lives,
        > Malcolm
        > ---------------------------------
        > Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically
        different. Just radically better.
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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